Does "Upper field first" matter in CCE?

[brett]

When I'm encoding something in CCE, I have already made a DVD2AVI project and an Avisynth script, so I'm left with a fully progressive 23.976 FPS source for CCE. I think this is the case for most people using CCE.

I'm sure that checking the first field in the original VOB's with BitRate Viewer might matter if you were dealing with an interlaced source, but I really don't understand how it is relevant when you have already turned the movie into a progressive film source. Is there a reason to check every time like the Robshot guide says? Does the button even do anything when your source is progressive?

[TRILIGHT]

There have been a number of posts saying that the selection does nothing. I always look it up via bitrate viewer and set it accordingly anyway. It's my luck that as soon as I stop doing it, I will run across something that screws up because I didn't. It doesn't take that long to check and set it. Better safe than sorry, I say. ;)

[Edster007]

I read on a post from Adobe that said NTSC standard 720x480 resolution is alwasys lower or bottom field first. Upper ot Top field is used for PAL res.

Not sure if this is true, but i have had all kinds of problems using the upper field in my encoding regardless of what Bitrate Viewer says.

[auenf]

i actually experience problems with lower field first, but thats another story.

in Premiere, it defaults to lower field first (you can change it in the project settings/export settings), and DV is normally lower field first, which is what i think its refering to (i very highly doubt that its different from NTSC->PAL).

Enf...

[SurfDrifter]

I'm a PAL user and the field option is crucial only on 4:3 interlaced movies...On 16:9 movies you wont have any problem...believe me i have made some DVD 4:3 coasters, because i didn't pay attention to the field order(actually i did, but for some strange reason you have to enter in DVD2AVI the option of swap fields to work properly, dunno why)...ANd of course you won't have any problem in a PC monitor, only on TV...
So whenever i re-enocode a 4:3 interlaced movie a check it on tv first with my DXR3, so to see if i have field issues...

[Edster007]

What's a DXR3?

[SurfDrifter]

Creative's DXR3 is a hardware MPEG-2 decoder with tv out...
It's used for watching DVD on your PC/TV...good for old systems with a graphics card that don't have TV out...

[mikeathome]

Howto Fieldorder with CCESP:

0) NEVER use Upper Field first = ON
- CCESP (upto version 2.64.01.10) has a strange bug
- first, it always produces Upper Field first Videos, regardless the setting of this switch BUT
- with Upper Field first = ON it'll shift the picture by one line outside, this is not seeable but odd, so don't use it
- why this behavior, a Cinemacraft coder told me the function is supposed to do the following:
- CCESP can only encode Upper Field first !!!
- to enable the encoder to encode Lower Field first video (all DV (PAL & NTSC) is Lower field first) the picture will be shifted by one line prior to encoding
- Upper Field first does not shift; that's the theorie
- our findings (mb1 and a couple other german freaks) found the encoder works the other way arround due to a wrong implementation of the theorie from above, it'll shift with Upper = ON and encode always Upper First ! (so at least the first assumption, always Upper Field first = TRUE ;-)
- we wrote that to Cinemacraft already

1) Progressive Material (DVD2AVI says Progressive (or >98% @ NTSC) AND you don't see any Interlace Artifacts, Interlace Lines while watching on a PC). The second part of the sentence is crucial.

Notes:
NTSC 29.96 is ALWAYS Interlaced (by nature). A reverse 3:2 pulldown can restore progressive 24 (23.97) fps Film Material, see DVD2AVI options.
Don't believe the field structure flags, means don't believe DVD2AVI don't believe Bitrateviewer, etc. There are lot's (most) of DVD in the wild where DVD2AVI says Interlaced while the material is native Progressive. In this case only trust you eyes. Rule of thumb:
- with a movie being reported as interlaced, be suspicious it maybe Progressive
- there are exceptions: ID4 e.g. it's true interlace, you can clearly see it
- a live concert reported interlaced, is interlaced, 99.5%
Why Progressive:
- progressive encoding needs MUCH less bitrate since the fields of a frame are of same content
- interlaced encoding requires special treatment, first a special quantization matrix like the 'mb1 DV Interlaced' AND an Alternative scanorder (the way the encoder picks up the quantization factors from the matrix), means NO ZigZag Scanorder !!!
- only use those together, otherwise youu'll degrade quality noticeable

2.) So, with that in mind howto handle true Interlaced Material in CCESP
- Upper Field = OFF
- Matrix 'mb1 DV Interlaced, for DVD as well
- Scanorder ZigZag = OFF (=> Alternate = ON)
- Bitrate expect the resulting ~1.000-1.500 kbps higher than progressive !
- with source material being DVD check prior to encoding the field order, use Darim MPEG Changer or ReStream they are reliable keep the FO in mind
- encode
- post encoding
* the Field order original was Upper Field first => you are ready
* the Field order was Lower Field first OR I encoded DV AVI => use MPEG Changer or ReStream to change (patch) the MPEG headers to Lower Field First (Upper flag = OFF, there's only a Upper Flag)
* the fu..... Field Order keeps changing along the input source, yes it's possible, 2010 Space Odyssey is a movie with changing FO along with the chapters @ random !!!, only way is to split at Cell IDs (chapter points) prior to encoding, encode the cells separately and change afterwards accordingly, see paragraphs above
* I don't know what the heck the Field Order was 'cause I encoded captured analog video (the FO is determined by the capture driver @ random !!!), ok, no problem, use the following AviSynth script to determine whether the FO is ok or not:

# determine correct FO
directshowsource("MeineFalscheFieldorder.mpv") # a load plugin + mpegsource will do as well
AssumeFieldBased.SeparateFields
# if it jumps, FO is wrong, if not it's ok
=> change or change not.
It's always a good idea to test interlaced encoded material with a DVD-RW on a standalone (every chapter ;-) or output to a TV using a hardware MPEG-2 decoder (like DXR 3).

NTSC folks need to perform the 3:2 pulldown with pulldown.exe in case they encoded Film (23.97) otherwise NO authoring programm will accept the re-encode.

I hope that clarifies it a bit...

mike

[DaveF71]

>2.) So, with that in mind howto handle true Interlaced Material in CCESP
> - Upper Field = OFF
> - Matrix 'mb1 DV Interlaced, for DVD as well

This 'mb1' matrix has been mentioned in other posts here, but I've never been able to find it. All of the sites I've found thru web searches are offline. Do you know where I can find it?

[marcundtim]

You can change this flag with restream.

http://shh.dvdboard.de/

[mikeathome]

Hi,
no problem, copy paste the following to a *.reg file and double click (import into registry) and you're done. This is for the trial version ! If you have the retail remove the 'Trial' from the main key. I post for the trial since most of the folks sem to ahve the trial version only. The import will contain a few more useful matrix for other usage.

REGEDIT4

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Custom Technology\Cinema Craft Encoder SP Trial\qmat]
"'TMPEGEnc CG'"=hex:08,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,\
20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,\
20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,10,10,10,10,10,\
10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,\
10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,\
10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10
"'Angel SVCD 1CD 2.35 avg800 max1500'"=hex:08,0d,0f,13,13,17,17,1d,0d,0d,11,13,\
16,17,1b,1d,0f,11,13,16,17,1b,1d,23,11,15,16,17,1b,1d,23,25,15,15,17,1b,1f,\
21,25,63,15,19,1b,1f,21,25,63,63,19,19,1f,21,25,63,63,63,19,1f,21,25,63,63,\
63,63,08,0b,0d,0f,0f,13,13,18,0b,0b,0f,0f,13,15,18,19,0d,0f,11,13,15,18,19,\
22,0d,11,13,15,17,1a,22,63,11,13,15,17,1a,20,63,63,11,15,17,1a,20,63,63,63,\
16,16,1c,1e,63,63,63,63,16,1c,1e,63,63,63,63,63
"'Angel SVCD 4:3 SVCD Interlaced 99'"=hex:08,0d,0d,11,11,15,15,1c,0d,0d,11,11,\
13,15,17,1e,0d,11,13,13,15,17,1c,22,0d,11,13,13,15,17,1c,63,11,13,13,13,17,\
1c,22,63,13,13,17,19,1c,20,22,63,13,15,17,19,1c,20,22,63,15,15,19,19,1c,20,\
22,63,08,0b,0b,0f,0f,11,11,18,0b,0b,0f,0f,11,11,15,18,0d,0f,0f,11,15,15,1a,\
22,0d,11,0f,11,15,15,1a,63,11,15,15,17,15,1e,22,63,11,15,15,17,1c,1e,22,63,\
13,13,19,1a,1c,1e,63,63,13,13,19,1a,1c,1e,63,63
"'Angel SVCD 4:3 SVCD Interlaced 34'"=hex:08,0d,0d,11,11,15,15,1c,0d,0d,11,11,\
13,15,17,1e,0d,11,13,13,15,17,1c,22,0d,11,13,13,15,17,1c,22,11,13,13,13,17,\
1c,22,22,13,13,17,19,1c,20,22,22,13,15,17,19,1c,20,22,22,15,15,19,19,1c,20,\
22,22,08,0b,0b,0f,0f,11,11,18,0b,0b,0f,0f,11,11,15,18,0d,0f,0f,11,15,15,1a,\
22,0d,11,0f,11,15,15,1a,22,11,15,15,17,15,1e,22,22,11,15,15,17,1c,1e,22,22,\
13,13,19,1a,1c,1e,22,22,13,13,19,1a,1c,1e,22,22
"'Angel BestLow'"=hex:08,10,13,16,1a,1b,1d,63,10,10,16,18,1b,1d,22,63,13,16,1a,\
1b,1d,22,22,63,16,16,1a,1b,1d,22,25,63,16,1a,1b,1d,20,23,28,63,1a,1b,1d,20,\
23,28,63,63,1a,1b,1d,22,26,63,63,63,1b,1d,23,26,63,63,63,63,10,11,12,13,14,\
15,16,63,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,63,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,63,13,14,15,16,17,18,\
1a,63,14,15,16,17,19,1a,63,63,15,16,17,18,1a,63,63,63,16,17,18,1a,63,63,63,\
63,17,18,19,63,63,63,63,63
"'Angel BestVeryLow'"=hex:08,10,13,16,1a,1b,63,63,10,10,16,18,1b,1d,63,63,13,\
16,1a,1b,1d,22,63,63,16,16,1a,1b,1d,22,63,63,16,1a,1b,1d,20,23,63,63,1a,1b,\
1d,20,23,28,63,63,1a,1b,1d,22,26,63,63,63,1b,1d,23,26,63,63,63,63,10,11,12,\
13,14,15,63,63,11,12,13,14,15,16,63,63,12,13,14,15,16,17,63,63,13,14,15,16,\
17,18,63,63,14,15,16,17,19,1a,63,63,15,16,17,18,1a,63,63,63,16,17,18,1a,63,\
63,63,63,17,18,19,63,63,63,63,63
"'mb1 interlaced DV'"=hex:08,0d,0d,11,11,15,15,1c,0d,0d,11,11,13,15,17,1e,0d,\
11,13,13,15,17,1c,22,0d,11,13,13,15,17,1c,30,11,13,13,13,17,1c,22,30,13,13,\
17,19,1c,20,22,30,13,15,17,19,1c,20,22,30,15,15,19,19,1c,20,22,30,08,0b,0b,\
0f,0f,11,11,18,0b,0b,0f,0f,11,11,15,18,0d,0f,0f,11,15,15,1a,22,0d,11,0f,11,\
15,15,1a,30,11,15,15,17,15,1e,22,30,11,15,15,17,1c,1e,22,30,13,13,19,1a,1c,\
1e,30,30,13,13,19,1a,1c,1e,30,30
"'Andreas SVCD Matrix'"=hex:08,10,13,16,1a,1b,1d,22,10,10,16,18,1b,1d,22,25,13,\
16,1a,1b,1d,22,22,26,16,16,1a,1b,1d,22,25,28,16,1a,1b,1d,20,23,28,30,1a,1b,\
1d,20,23,28,30,3a,1a,1b,1d,22,26,2e,38,45,1b,1d,23,26,2e,38,45,53,10,11,12,\
13,14,15,16,63,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,63,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,63,13,14,15,16,\
17,18,1a,63,14,15,16,17,19,1a,63,63,15,16,17,18,1a,63,63,63,16,17,18,1a,63,\
63,63,63,17,18,19,63,63,63,63,63
"'Andreas 78er Matrix'"=hex:08,0d,0f,13,13,17,17,1d,0d,0d,11,13,16,17,1b,1d,0f,\
11,13,16,17,1b,1d,23,11,15,16,17,1b,1d,23,25,15,15,17,1b,1f,21,25,2e,15,19,\
1b,1f,21,25,2e,3a,19,19,1f,21,25,28,36,45,19,1f,21,25,28,36,45,4e,08,0b,0d,\
0f,0f,13,13,18,0b,0b,0f,0f,13,15,18,19,0d,0f,11,13,15,18,19,22,0d,11,13,15,\
17,1a,22,2e,11,13,15,17,1a,20,2e,38,11,15,17,1a,20,2e,38,42,16,16,1c,1e,2e,\
38,42,45,16,1c,1e,2e,38,42,45,4e
"'Andreas einfache 99er Matrix'"=hex:08,0d,0f,13,13,17,17,1d,0d,0d,11,13,16,17,\
1b,1d,0f,11,13,16,17,1b,1d,23,11,15,16,17,1b,1d,23,25,15,15,17,1b,1f,21,25,\
2e,15,19,1b,1f,21,25,2e,3a,19,19,1f,21,25,28,36,45,19,1f,21,25,28,36,45,4e,\
08,0b,0d,0f,0f,13,13,18,0b,0b,0f,0f,13,15,18,19,0d,0f,11,13,15,18,19,22,0d,\
11,13,15,17,1a,22,63,11,13,15,17,1a,20,63,63,11,15,17,1a,20,63,63,63,16,16,\
1c,1e,63,63,63,63,16,1c,1e,63,63,63,63,63
"'Andreas doppelte 99er Matrix'"=hex:08,0d,0f,13,13,17,17,1d,0d,0d,11,13,16,17,\
1b,1d,0f,11,13,16,17,1b,1d,23,11,15,16,17,1b,1d,23,25,15,15,17,1b,1f,21,25,\
2e,15,19,1b,1f,21,25,2e,63,19,19,1f,21,25,28,63,63,19,1f,21,25,28,63,63,63,\
08,0b,0d,0f,0f,13,13,18,0b,0b,0f,0f,13,15,18,19,0d,0f,11,13,15,18,19,22,0d,\
11,13,15,17,1a,22,63,11,13,15,17,1a,20,63,63,11,15,17,1a,20,63,63,63,16,16,\
1c,1e,63,63,63,63,16,1c,1e,63,63,63,63,63
"'Andreas Matrix fuer DivX Quelle'"=hex:08,08,08,08,10,10,10,20,08,08,08,10,10,\
10,20,20,08,08,10,10,10,20,20,20,08,10,10,10,20,20,20,20,10,10,10,20,20,20,\
20,20,10,10,20,20,20,20,20,20,10,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,\
20,08,08,08,08,10,10,10,10,08,08,08,10,10,10,10,10,08,08,10,10,10,10,10,10,\
08,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,\
10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10
"'Kika Trickfilm Low'"=hex:08,20,20,20,20,20,63,63,20,20,20,20,20,20,63,63,20,\
20,20,20,20,20,63,63,20,20,20,20,20,20,63,63,20,20,20,20,20,20,63,63,20,20,\
20,20,20,63,63,63,20,20,20,20,63,63,63,63,20,20,20,63,63,63,63,63,08,08,08,\
08,10,10,10,10,08,08,08,08,10,10,10,10,08,08,08,08,10,10,10,10,08,08,08,08,\
10,10,10,10,08,08,08,08,10,10,10,10,08,08,08,08,10,10,10,10,08,08,08,08,10,\
10,10,10,08,08,08,08,10,10,10,10
"'Kika Trickfilm High'"=hex:08,10,10,10,18,18,20,20,10,10,10,18,18,20,20,20,10,\
10,18,18,20,20,20,20,10,18,18,20,20,20,20,20,10,18,20,20,20,20,20,20,18,20,\
20,20,20,20,20,20,18,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,20,10,10,10,\
10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,\
10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,\
10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,18
"'Fox Home Entertainment'"=hex:08,08,09,0b,0d,0d,0e,11,08,08,0b,0c,0d,0e,11,12,\
09,0b,0d,0d,0e,11,11,10,0b,0b,0d,0d,0d,11,12,14,0b,0d,0d,0d,10,11,14,18,0d,\
0d,0d,10,11,14,18,1d,0d,0c,0d,11,13,17,1c,22,0c,0d,11,13,17,1c,22,29,08,08,\
08,09,09,09,09,0a,08,08,09,09,09,09,0a,0a,08,09,09,09,09,0a,0a,0a,09,09,09,\
09,0a,0a,0a,0a,09,09,09,0a,0a,0a,0a,0b,09,09,0a,0a,0a,0a,0b,0b,09,0a,0a,0a,\
0a,0b,0b,0b,0a,0a,0a,0a,0b,0b,0b,0b
"'KVCD_448x320_CQ65'"=hex:08,10,13,16,1a,1b,1d,22,10,10,16,18,1b,1d,22,25,13,\
16,1a,1b,1d,22,22,26,16,16,1a,1b,1d,22,25,28,16,1a,1b,1d,20,23,28,30,1a,1b,\
1d,20,23,28,30,3a,1a,1b,1d,22,26,2e,38,45,1b,1d,23,26,2e,38,45,53,10,11,12,\
13,14,15,1a,1a,11,12,13,14,15,1a,1a,1e,12,13,14,15,1a,1a,1e,1e,13,14,16,1a,\
1a,1e,1e,22,14,16,18,1b,1c,20,22,24,16,16,1b,1c,20,22,24,30,16,1b,1c,20,22,\
28,2e,32,1b,1c,20,22,28,2e,32,36
"'KVCD_320x432_CQ65'"=hex:08,10,13,16,1a,1b,1d,22,10,10,16,18,1b,1d,22,25,13,\
16,1a,1b,1d,22,22,26,16,16,1a,1b,1d,22,25,28,16,1a,1b,1d,20,23,28,40,1a,1b,\
1d,20,23,28,40,50,1a,1b,1d,22,26,30,50,50,1b,1d,23,26,2e,50,50,58,10,11,12,\
13,14,15,1a,1a,11,12,13,14,15,1a,1a,1e,12,13,14,15,1a,1a,1e,1e,13,14,16,1a,\
1a,1e,1e,22,14,16,18,1b,1c,20,22,48,16,16,1b,1c,20,22,48,50,16,1b,1c,20,22,\
48,50,50,1b,1c,20,22,48,50,50,58

regards, mike

[Byungsoo]

Originally posted by mikeathome

2.) So, with that in mind howto handle true Interlaced Material in CCESP
- Upper Field = OFF
- Matrix 'mb1 DV Interlaced, for DVD as well
- Scanorder ZigZag = OFF (=> Alternate = ON)
- Bitrate expect the resulting ~1.000-1.500 kbps higher than progressive !
- with source material being DVD check prior to encoding the field order, use Darim MPEG Changer or ReStream they are reliable keep the FO in mind
- encode
- post encoding
* the Field order original was Upper Field first => you are ready
* the Field order was Lower Field first OR I encoded DV AVI => use MPEG Changer or ReStream to change (patch) the MPEG headers to Lower

I have encoded ntsc dv avi to mpeg2(dvd) using CCE 2.66 and
consulted the quoted setting.
But they made very much blocks in motions.
Changing quantize matrix from 'mb1 ...' to MPEG standard improves quality and made no blocks.
What's wrong ?

[mikeathome]

Originally posted by Byungsoo
I have encoded ntsc dv avi to mpeg2(dvd) using CCE 2.66 and consulted the quoted setting. But they made very much blocks in motions.
Changing quantize matrix from 'mb1 ...' to MPEG standard improves quality and made no blocks. What's wrong ?

Hi,

post the rest of your settings and I'll try to tell you. Do you have Progressive DV by chance ?

BTW. I don't use CCESP 2.66, so I don't know the specifics of Ver. 2.66. The settings above are for 2.64.01.10 as said.
Cinemacraft is known for drastic changing the influence of certain parameters to the output, e.g. the noise settings, you'd better turn it completely off in Ver. 2.66.

mike

[Byungsoo]

Thankyou for your quick reply, mike.

Originally posted by mikeathome
Hi,

post the rest of your settings and I'll try to tell you. Do you have Progressive DV by chance ?

mike

I think my dv avi (ntsc) is definitely interlaced.
I captured and edited my dv avi using Vegas 3.0 and rendered
as ntsc dv avi (no compression).
Is there any chance to be changed from interlaced to progressive ?

I'm not at home now , mike. So I cannot describe exactly my setting.
However I'm sure the following setting.

- DVD compliant = check
- Add Sequence.... = on
- progressive frames = off
- alternate scan order = on (zigzag off)
- Luminance level: 16 to 235
- DC precision: 10 (default)
- aspect ratio 4:3
- upper field first = off
- avg. bitrate = 6500
- min. bitrate = 3000
- max. bitrate = 7800
- multipass vbr = 3 pass
- GOP setting = 3/4/1 (?)
- anti noise filter = off
- quantize matrix = mb1 DV interlaced
- others were set by default, I think.

After encoding, I changed field order from top to bottom with restream.

If you need more info, I will edit this post 10 hours later...

Thanks a lot.

[Byungsoo]

I tested tmpg with mb1 dv interlaced and made very good quality.
I satisfied at the result except encoding speed.

Thanks.

[mikeathome]

Originally posted by Byungsoo
I tested tmpg with mb1 dv interlaced and made very good quality.
I satisfied at the result except encoding speed. Thanks.

You're welcome !
... and, there must be something wrong than with Ver. 2.66, version 2.64.01.10 gives outstanding results with m1b interlaced matrix as well, 90% compareble to a finetuned TMPEG, if that is ever noticeable for a normal user at all.

mike

[tomti]

Hi

You seem to manage to use your DXR3 with DVDR backups...What drivers do you have and which operating system ?
It only works in file mode for me... ;(


Thanks a lot