DV to DVD...Questions

[vasudev71]

Hi,

Format Details:

Source: NTSC DV AVI (YUV 4:1:1 color space).
Premiere Timeline: Cuts, Transistions, Effects and the source AVI file (NTSC DV).

Method1: Frameserve to TMPGEnc 2.5x
==========================
Settings in TMPGEnc: I used this link http://pwp.netcabo.pt/0165394101/TMPGEnc_Template.html
for making DVD compliant MPEG-2 file.

In TMPGEnc Environmental settings, I checked Interpolate YUV 4:1:1 source as YUV 4:4:4.
What does this do?

Also, if I go thru Method1, will the video be converted to RGB by Premiere or be passed thru as YUV 4:1:1 to TMPGEnc since the video is uncompressed due to the AviSynth route.
Will the DV color space ( YUV 4:1:1) be preserved if I frameserve?
I'm looking for a positive reply to this question...HELP ME OUT...

Method2: Frameserve to CCE 2.6x
======================

Anybody: Please give me all settings for making a DVD compliant MPEG-2 file to enable me to further test.

Also, CCE 2.6x has a lot of options which TMPGEnc does not. Does this really degrade the output generated by TMPGEnc 2.5x?

Method3: Render as Microsoft AVI using Etymonix MPEG-2 I-Frame codec
===========================================================

I bought Etymonix MPEG-2 I-Frame codec 1.10 to do the tests. I rendered the Premiere timeline as a Microsoft AVI uisng the Etymonix MPEG-2 codec. Etymonix codec has 3 settings (YUV 4:2:0, YUV 4:2:2 and YUV 4:4:4). It says YUV 4:4:4 gives broadcast quality and also use YUV 4:4:4 if the source is NTSC DV AVI (YUV 4:1:1) and has transistions and effects.
So, I make a Microsoft AVI, then feed it directly to TMPGEnc 2.x or CCE 2.6x. Is this Method3 better than the Method1 and Method2?

PLEASE GIVE ME A POSITIVE REPLY TO MY QUESTIONS.

Thanks.

VS

[auenf]

Method4:

Export to mpeg-2 using CCE plugin

just another option to think about ;)

Enf...

[vasudev71]

Hi,

Still no replies...? Surprising....

VS

[auenf]

i change the topic for you (to what you had as the topic for the first post) so you might get more visits.

Enf...

[mikeathome]

Hi,

good way to proceed with DV Material: http://www.mb1.de.vu/ - GERMAN, but lots of Pictures, very informative and useful.

My Settings DV - Method 4:
- CCESP 3pass VBR 500/6.000/9.000 (min./avg./max. bitrate
- Quality Settings: Image Quality = 15, Anti Noise Filter = off, Matrix = 'mb1 DV Interlaced Matrix' (URL see above)
- GOP: M/N = 3/4, Close all GOP = off (if you consider editing your ready MPEG-2 then close the Gops!), Restrict I-Frame Insertion = off
- Video: Add Sequence End Code, Progressive Frames = off, Upper Field First = off (!!!), Linear Quantisizer Scale = off, Alternativ Scanorder (+ 'mb1 DV Interlaced Matrix' !!!), DVD Compliant, Luminance Level 16-235 (TV), Intra DC = 10, DAR = 4:3, Timecode = 00:00:00:00

Hint: After encoding you need to use Pulldown.exe or Darim MPEGChanger or ReStream to turn the Fieldorder to Lower Field first (DV, your source, is lower field first, if you forget, your video will shake). Don't turn UpperField First = on in CCESP, it has bug and encodes always Upper Field First anyway, BUT if you turn it on it will add'l shift your movie by one line AND encode (foresure Upper Field First, as always ;-)

These are MY PAL settings, folks you may have better, ready to rumble...

mike

[vasudev71]

Hi,

Atlast, I'm getting replies. Thank you moderator.

With regard to your previous reply, I will try that route.
Should I go thru Avisynth or load directly my DV AVI in CCE?
The reason being, I have transistions, effects etc. in Premiere timeline and I need all of that in my final MPEG-2 file.
As asked first in my posting, what does Avisynth does to the DV color space? Will it be preserved? Will Premiere convert it to RGB and then frameserve to TMPGEnc/CCE?

Should there be a neccesity to go for Etymonix MPEG-2 I-Frame codec since they claim it preserves the color quality if I use YUV 4:4:4 setting in their codec configuration?

Also, as mikeathome said, since CCE defaults to Upper Field First and I should run Darim MPEGChanger or Pulldown to modify it as Lower Field First, will there be a quality loss in the CCE generated MPEG-2 file if I do this editing in the MPEG-2 file?

Also, when I play my MPEG-2 generated by CCE and TMPGEnc thru Windows Media Player it shows me Ligos as the Decoder. Is this the correct way to check the quality of the CCE/TMPGEnc generated MPEG-2 file?

In what way people come to the conclusion that CCE quality is superior to TMPGEnc?

I would appreciate a reply on this.

Thanks.

VS

[auenf]

Originally posted by vasudev71
Hi,

Atlast, I'm getting replies. Thank you moderator.


no problems, ive found that lots of people skip past threads that have titles like 'Help' cause, so keep in mind a good title for when you first post the thread ;)


With regard to your previous reply, I will try that route.
Should I go thru Avisynth or load directly my DV AVI in CCE?
The reason being, I have transistions, effects etc. in Premiere timeline and I need all of that in my final MPEG-2 file.
As asked first in my posting, what does Avisynth does to the DV color space? Will it be preserved? Will Premiere convert it to RGB and then frameserve to TMPGEnc/CCE?


using the CCE premiere plugin, instead of exporting the timeline to DV AVI, choose the CCE mpeg-2 encoder, and yes it will keep all the effects/transitions from the timeline, and you are saving a encoding step which may cause a degregation of quality (however slight it would be)

the only thing with the plugin is that it doesnt support multipass encoding, but single Pass VBR is probably acceptable if you pick the right bitrate.


Should there be a neccesity to go for Etymonix MPEG-2 I-Frame codec since they claim it preserves the color quality if I use YUV 4:4:4 setting in their codec configuration?


im not familiar with that codec, but its a MPEG-2 compression, and as little recompression steps as possible is always a good strategy ;)


Also, as mikeathome said, since CCE defaults to Upper Field First and I should run Darim MPEGChanger or Pulldown to modify it as Lower Field First, will there be a quality loss in the CCE generated MPEG-2 file if I do this editing in the MPEG-2 file?


change from top field first to lower field first is just a flag setting on each frame, and doesnt degrade quality at all, and doesnt increase/decrease file size either.


Also, when I play my MPEG-2 generated by CCE and TMPGEnc thru Windows Media Player it shows me Ligos as the Decoder. Is this the correct way to check the quality of the CCE/TMPGEnc generated MPEG-2 file?


i personally dont like the ligos decoder, bad experiences with it ;), but yes playing it back in wmplayer is the way to check it, you can also open it up in bitrate viewer to check the bitrate and Q scale graph, if it has any meaning to you.


In what way people come to the conclusion that CCE quality is superior to TMPGEnc?


i would be suprised if its all based on speed and advanced settings. CCE is quite faster than tmpg, and the quality is about the same, ever since robshot exposed the advanced VBR settings, is when people started using CCE in droves.

Enf...

[mikeathome]

Originally posted by auenf
(...)
the only thing with the plugin is that it doesnt support multipass encoding, but single Pass VBR is probably acceptable if you pick the right bitrate.


Hi,

few remarks:
- I encode here ALWAYS 3passVBR with the Premiere CCESP 2.64.01.10 Plugin. Try purchasing the software ;-)
- I recommend DVD2AVI for preview, since it has the MPEGroup reference decoder engine build in, can't get any better
- I still recommend to export the Premiere Timeline to a new DV AVI using the Mainconcept (or Panasonic) codec. DON'T use the MS or APPLE or any other (!) they degrade quality
- find yourself DVSwitch to switch the codec to Mainconcept in Premiere, this will retain maximum quality (ez procedure, which gets rid of nasty MS DV quality, this is even more essential for NTSC ! ; this is valid for ALL re-compressing, means the transistions as well)

Why do I recommend the timeline export to a new DVD AVI, well, using the mb1 screen max. resolution method (as in the URL, previous post) gives you max. visible picture on a TV respecting the TV overscan. But ok, I agree that's really the last nut. Exporting with the CCESP Plugin in MPVBR is still ok.

Thx. auenf, good explanation of the rest ...

mike

[auenf]

Originally posted by mikeathome
few remarks:
- I encode here ALWAYS 3passVBR with the Premiere CCESP 2.64.01.10 Plugin. Try purchasing the software ;-)


well i do have the latest, never install the plugin anymore tho, prefer to set multiple files up in standalone that leave premiere to multiple exports to the cce plugin (having lots of titles on prem timeline is bad, mkay.

Enf...

[Azash]

Originally posted by mikeathome
Hi,

good way to proceed with DV Material: http://www.mb1.de.vu/ - GERMAN, but lots of Pictures, very informative and useful.

My Settings DV - Method 4:
- CCESP 3pass VBR 500/6.000/9.000 (min./avg./max. bitrate
- Quality Settings: Image Quality = 15, Anti Noise Filter = off, Matrix = 'mb1 DV Interlaced Matrix' (URL see above)
- GOP: M/N = 3/4, Close all GOP = off (if you consider editing your ready MPEG-2 then close the Gops!), Restrict I-Frame Insertion = off
- Video: Add Sequence End Code, Progressive Frames = off, Upper Field First = off (!!!), Linear Quantisizer Scale = off, Alternativ Scanorder (+ 'mb1 DV Interlaced Matrix' !!!), DVD Compliant, Luminance Level 16-235 (TV), Intra DC = 10, DAR = 4:3, Timecode = 00:00:00:

I recently bought a Sony DRX-500UL combination DVD-R/-RW & DVD+R/+RW burner, and have been experimenting with creating DVDs of movies filmed on my miniDV camcorder. So far I'm getting pretty decent results (after much reading and searching of various forums around the web, including this one), but I'm interested in trying the 'mb1 DV Interlaced Matrix' that you mention. I've been to mb1's web site and (since I'm not a German reader / speaker, I used altavista's translate to) read the pages there. I assume that the matrix is available in the download section (which is currently returning 404 errors), or else I'm misreading the translation of the site and just not seeing the proper matrix settings, but..

Could someone provide me with this matrix / basic info on using it? (I'm guessing use is as simple as creating a new preset in CCE / TMPGEnc with the proper values in the tables, but even if that's correct, I still don't have the values to plug in)

Also, does this matrix apply to the NTSC DV format (4:1:1 vs. 4:2:0 PAL), and if not, what sorts of changes might be made for the NTSC version?

Thanks

[Azash]

I can't believe nobody at least knows where I can still get this information..

Help, please. :confused:

[auenf]

Originally posted by Azash
I recently bought a Sony DRX-500UL combination DVD-R/-RW & DVD+R/+RW burner, and have been experimenting with creating DVDs of movies filmed on my miniDV camcorder. So far I'm getting pretty decent results (after much reading and searching of various forums around the web, including this one), but I'm interested in trying the 'mb1 DV Interlaced Matrix' that you mention.

if you do a search for a post by mikeathome that contains REGEDIT4, you will find the registry entries (that you copy and paste into a txt file called yada.reg then import) for the extra matrix' for CCESP.

Originally posted by Azash

I can't believe nobody at least knows where I can still get this information..


it usually helps to wait at least a day for a reply before posting a bump or a plead like this, not everyone comes in here more than once a day.

Enf...

[Azash]

Originally posted by auenf
if you do a search for a post by mikeathome that contains REGEDIT4, you will find the registry entries (that you copy and paste into a txt file called yada.reg then import) for the extra matrix' for CCESP.
Thanks! I'll look for it right away. :)

it usually helps to wait at least a day for a reply before posting a bump or a plead like this, not everyone comes in here more than once a day.

Enf...
:( I apologize for that, since I definitely should have known better. I'll definitely keep that in mind for future posts I make though, and there are sure to be more from me, since I'm fairly new to the whole DVD creation process. (I'm a member of several other forums too, and while most are fairly busy, there's one or two in which the situation is just as you say.)

[auenf]

Originally posted by Azash
:( I apologize for that, since I definitely should have known better. I'll definitely keep that in mind for future posts I make though, and there are sure to be more from me, since I'm fairly new to the whole DVD creation process. (I'm a member of several other forums too, and while most are fairly busy, there's one or two in which the situation is just as you say.)

patience is the key to getting things done properly, rushing (and one click apps come under this part ;)) will mostly lead to problems or unsatisfactory results.

Enf...

[Azash]

Originally posted by auenf
patience is the key to getting things done properly, rushing (and one click apps come under this part ;)) will mostly lead to problems or unsatisfactory results.

Enf...

That is so true. But in this instance I'm trying to get a long-overdue project moving. :)

Brief background: I've owned a Sony miniDV camcorder for over a year now, and I live over 1000miles from my parents. Unfortunately for everyone involved, this means that they don't get to see their grandchildren more than maybe once a year, for about 2 weeks.

What I originally planned was to film my children regularly, capture the video from the camcorder to VCD / SVCD, then mail them a disc. This didn't work out well though, because their DVD player wouldn't recognize VCD format. The CD-R media I used was fine, since I could make working audio CDs that the player accepted, just not video. Because of this I've been waiting anxiously for DVD burners, and more specifically, combo -R/-RW/+R/+RW models, to drop to a sub $400US price range, along with media prices to go below around $4 a disc.

Finally around November of last year Sony had a model that fit my requirements very well, but I couldn't afford it at that time. So I ended up buying my new burner in January. Unfortunately, this means I have a backlog of around 8 miniDV tapes that I want to put on DVD now, and I at least wanted to get the first out in the mail this weekend. I HAVE managed to get what I consider acceptable quality using CCE on my first disc, so I'll be sending that off tomorrow. The only issues I have at the moment are really some minor blockiness and some of what appears to be overly contrasty areas where certain colors in the video appear to have a halo. Thanks to you guys here, and people in several other forums (not to mention sites like VCDHelp.com), I'm well on my way, and just from lurking I'm picking up lots of good tips. I usually just experiment with producing new encoded versions using the tips I think might be useful, then compare test DVD+RW discs containing my previous best to the new method to help decide which I will use in the future.

Er.. wow. Kinda went a bit long on the 'brief' part there. Sorry about that. It's amazing how addictive this stuff gets. I used to use my home PC for playing Unreal Tournament (and UT2003) more than anything else, but now that I've started into the DV to DVD conversion hobby, I'm finding that I spend very little time doing something else, because I'm constant seeing new possibilities and just having to try them out. :)

Thanks again for your help, auenf.