Sanyo introduces 1.4GB CD-R burner/DVD Burner [Archive]

flloyd

25th September 2002, 22:51

There is more detailed info about this available here (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.asp?RelatedID=2788) . This is totally legit but the question is will hardware makers support it. Sanyo is the company that developed Burn-Proof and that is now a universal standard so their is a good chance that this will also be widely supported. I sure hope that it will. The only problem is that even if it does get widely supported even though it seems to only require a firmware update I'm sure that most companies will probably only include it on their new drives to encourage people to buy new ones rather than getting a new feature for free on their old drives.

BTW oddball to answer your question it can read at "80x" because the data is written more densely. That way although the CD is only spinninf atl lets say 54x because their is more data per rotation it is equivalent to 80x. Much like a DVD spinning at 10x transfers way more data than a CD at 10x. HTH

kxy

26th September 2002, 02:40

Read more here
http://www.cdrlabs.com/#3

and here

http://www.digital-sanyo.com/BURN-Proof/HD-BURN/index.html

What will happend to XCD? Will those HD-Burn still have ECC within them and can they be striped therefore free up more space?

DeXT

27th September 2002, 19:00

Since this is a hardware improvement, it probably has no change on the software side (i.e. it will still support Mode1 and Mode2 tracks) so you probably can burn 1.6 GB on one of these using Mode2... :)

mpucoder

27th September 2002, 19:06

I think the other way. Since this is not compatable with CD players or CD-ROM (notice they keep saying you need a DVD_ROM to read it?), it is very unlikely that they stayed with the audio cd sector size, which is why there are 2 data modes.

But - what about overburn, and the larger CDR's? Can an 800 be used for 1.6G?

int 21h

27th September 2002, 20:39

b) With slight modifications in firmware, HD-BURN CDs can be recognized from DVD-ROM and stand-alone DVD readers. Unfortunaly CD-ROMs would not be able to read HD-BURN media.

Really neat and all, but sucks for the majority of consumers that already have a dvd player that more than likely will see no firmware update (i.e. Pioneer DV-C302D)

The Belgain

27th September 2002, 21:45

Has it been released yet? If not when is it coming out and how much will it cost?

oddball

28th September 2002, 00:00

I wonder if an 1.6GB SVCD would be possible and would it play on a stand alone DVD player? Hmm.

int 21h

28th September 2002, 01:18

Originally posted by oddball
I wonder if an 1.6GB SVCD would be possible and would it play on a stand alone DVD player? Hmm.

They specifically reference VCDs in the article.

Scipio

28th September 2002, 01:23

Even if it will not be compatible with most standalones out there, chances are that many DVD-ROM makers of pc-drives will release updates for their drives.
And that alone opens up new possibilities... (Nearly) every PC is sold with a DVD-ROM nowadays, so compatibility should not be a problem.

Interesting new backup medium I'd say - if it succeeds. And if so, it will slow down DVD±RW sales. ;) (I wonder if the latter is good or bad...)

oddball

28th September 2002, 23:55

Bad I'd say. We need DVD rewriters to come down to CD rewriter prices. If the HD BURN had come out a year or two ago it may have been worthwhile. But not so sure now.

Scipio

29th September 2002, 00:06

Now with more and more 4x DVD ReWriters appearing, prices of 2x or 2,4x burners will fall... so I guess this technology will have a hard time although it's more promising than Sony's DD technology (which required new discs, I'm not sure about the name DD, though).

snn47

2nd January 2003, 13:31

Has anyone new information?. I've been searching repeatedly for new information but couldn't find anything so far except a validation site

like
- when will HD-Burn drives be available outside Japan and from which firms (I saw a picture of a presentation once that listed also LitOn)
- which DVD-drives can be updated by firmware to read HD-Burndisks (= for my Raite/Yamakawa DVD-/[S]VCD/MP3.... player).
- when/if CD-RW will be supported (still no reason given why it should be not possible)
- can 90' CD also be utelized

oddball

2nd January 2003, 16:53

I doubt this will see the light of day what with DVD burner proces set to fall in the coming year.

snn47

2nd January 2003, 21:00

Sanyo also introduced a new chipset for controlling DVD-Burner-drives that support also HD-Burn along with different DVD-modes.

So everyone that selects this chipset would also have HD-Burn in their dives :D.

Koepi

3rd January 2003, 11:42

Ok, looked at the links, only the sanyo-one brings up a "useful" page with plenty of dumb marketing blahblah on it.

Anyone care to post some technical related articles? Would be nice to evaluate the technique.

Thanks,

best regards
Koepi

snn47

3rd January 2003, 15:09

Longer discussion and links here http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?s=&postid=1465043#post1465043

HD-Burn = Double Density for standard CD-R(W)

Doubles the recording capacity of conventional CD-R media, CD-R(W) intended to be available after Firmware update. Unlike Unlike $ony's monopoly standard called Double Density CD-R (Drive Spressa CRX200E-A1) HD-Burn.

How:
By reduction of the pit length and more efficient error correction

Hardware requirements:
- standard CD-R
- write: DVD-Burner with HD-Burn supporting firmware/chipset
- read: DVD-ROM/-Burner with HD-Burn supporting firmware

Differences between SD- and DD-CD-R:
DD-CD-R Recording capacity: 1.4GB (Type80) vs. 700 MB (Type80) SD-CD-R (=capacity-increase
~2,01 : 1,00)

- pit length: DD-CDR 0.62µm vs. SD-CD-R 0.83µm (=capacity-increase
1,35 : 1,00)
- Error correction method: DD-CDR RS-Product vs. Code CIRC SD-CDR (=capacity-increase x1.49 : 1,00)
- write speed: DD-CDR 36 times standard
- read-spead: DD-CDR max.80 times standard using the CLV (Constant Linear Velocity)

supported by:
e.g Accesstek, Lite-ON, BTC, BENQ.
AHEAD, BHA and ECI are named as software makers (see CDR-Info Presentation Pick Sanyo 07.gif Wednesday, 25 September 2002)

existing drive CRD-BPDV2 specification: (sample price 50 000Yen available in Japan only)
1. HD-BURN read speed x80, write speed x36
2. CD-R/RW x24/x12/x40
3. DVD+RW/+R x4/x4/x16
4. BURN-Proof, FlexSS-BP

Availability: Claimed to be in January.2003

Good:
++ Doubles capicity of existing CD-R, after firmware upgrade also CD-R(W)(Sanyo's claim)
++ Doubles read speed at same RPM of the CD due to DD at same physical size = quieter drive.
++ Read with existing DVD-ROM/Burner after firmware upgrade (Sanyo's claim)
++ Write added benefit if you have to buy a DVD-Burner anyhow that supports HD-Burn
++ Less CD's to carry around/archive e.g. one instead of 2 for a complete film on (S)VCD
++ Included in Sanyo's new DVD-Burner chipset used by Sanyo & it's OEM partners (price ~3 000Yen)

Bad:
-- Write requires a DVD-Burner to support the smaller pit size
-- read cannot be read by current CD-R(R) drives due to smaller pit size
-- depends on the good will of manufacturers to upgrade existing DVD-ROM/-Burner firmware to allow reading HD-Burn
-- CD-R(W) not yet supported

Some unanswered questions from me:

?? How good/bad is the error correction RS-Product
?? How about the longterm stability of HD-Burn CD-R(W) compared to SD-CD-R(W) or DVD
?? Will HD-Burn supported also other CD-R(W) then 700MB, so far only 700MB CD-R is mentioned like e.g. 650MB, or >800MB CD-R ?
?? Can existing (S)VCD-/MP3-/DVD-Player that use a standard IDE-DVD-drive utilize also HD-Burn
?? Is UDF-format already supported
?? why was just this pit-size used and not the smaller one of the DVD-standard DVD-

That's a short summery of what I could find in the web so far

snn47

23rd March 2003, 14:28

:( Beginning to look like a press stunt because they also don't answer to mails.:mad:

iwod

23rd March 2003, 16:55

i am actually still waiting for Blue ray DVD recoder to get on PC......

snn47

20th April 2003, 22:03

Accesstek introduces dual format DVD recorder with HD-BURN Friday, 18 April 2003 Type = Accesstek DD0203

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.asp?RelatedID=3686

- BURN-Proof: prevents Buffer Under Run
- HD -BURN: record twice the capacity of CD-R media
- 8 MB internal buffer
- Motorized easy touch tray loading
- Firmware upgradeable
- 4X Max. DVD+R and -R Write, 2.4X Max. DVD+RW Rewrite 2X Max.DVD-RW Rewrite, and 12X Max. DVD-ROM Reading
- 24X Max. CD-R Write, 10X Max. CD-RW Rewrite and 40X Max. CD-ROM Reading
- Writing Type:
DVD+R: Incremental Write (Multi Session Support)
DVD-R: Disc at Once, Incremental Recording
DVD+RW: Random Write
DVD-RW: Rigid Restricted Overwriting, Incremental Write
CD-R/RW: Disc at Once, Session at Once, Track at Once, Packet Writing (Multi Session Support)

It's strange that the read/write speed is not listed seperately for normal and HD-Burn.

Looks now more likely that we'll see HD-Burn, since support by an additional firm is something that Plextors GigaRec doesn't have so far.:sly:

baker

21st April 2003, 14:18

Right just a point of mention to you guys.
Right its been pointed out that these media can be read on DVD players. If theres anybody out there who still can't lay there hands on a DVD burner and think the medias too deer then this could actuallly be a soloution for you.

www.kvcd.net has a 720x576 DVD templet which normally fits all movies on 2 cds (1500mbs) at great quailty. Also IMHO the 528x576 templet on 2 cds is almost identical to the original DVD when done right as well.

See where I am going here?? This DVD burner could fit your movies in dvd quailty on one cd! and with the costs of cds going down and down... well you get the point.

Baker

flloyd

22nd April 2003, 00:29

baker, can you let us know where you saw that DVD players could read these CDs. I thought that this was the first HD-Burn capable burner out and also on Sanyo's website here (http://www.digital-sanyo.com/BURN-Proof/HD-BURN/hd-faq.html) it states that the firmware of DVD Players will need to be updated in order to read these discs. If you have other info I would be very interested.

If HD-Burn can catch on with DVD Burners and Players I think it would be a great way to back up movies for cheap. Especially if you make a 1.4 Gig MP4 and play it on DVD Players that will play them in the future. This would make it a little bit cheaper than DVD-Rs or good for lots of backups such as TV episodes. Let's just hope that this can get some more support.

BTW Pricewatch has two listings for the Accesstek. One for $280 the other for $305. They list an ETA of 4/25. They are under the brand name of Optorite which I read elsewhere is the same as Accesstek.

snn47

22nd April 2003, 08:05

Mailorder or in store?

So far I couldn't find the Sanyo. It's sometimes listed, but neither price nor ETA is given and even in Akiba I couldn't find it over the past month.

marc_albero

24th April 2003, 17:08

There is also the possibility to combine this feature with the newer CD media. It would be amazing making DVD rips of... wait... 2x850=1700... 1700MB!! Or even 3400MB if you go 2-CDs!!! Do you know of any DVD burner that support 90 and 99 minutes CD media?

As to the DVD drive firmware replacement, you all know there are lots of people there with the know-how to write DVD firmware. This, togethe with Sanyo providing the algorithm to read HD-burn media should convey the goods... BTW, I read Sanyo would deliver the info in one of the links, don't remember which one.

It seems like HD-burning will become a new DVD burner feature. Would you expect DVD-burner prices to freeze because of that, even though it is clear to everybody that it is nothing but a firmware refresh? No. DVD burners should become cheaper anyway. And do not forget the upcoming blu-ray thing, too.

One thing about the new error correction scheme: in one of the press links it is stated that it provides both higher reliability and less overhead. You never know, though. It could be wrong. Nevertheless, imagine you are a Sanyo engineering staff guy. Would you release a CD format that is 2x bigger and not even mention any trade-off in reliability? Certainly not. I bet it is completely safe.

We should all join and send e-mails to the people on Sanyo in order to get more information (when will they deliver information for the OEMs to write the firmware updates? Is there support for 90/99min media? For when the CD-RW support?). If they get lots of mails, they will understand there is a lot of interest on HD-burn and will push it further. Also, if we contact people at sites like http://pioneerdvd.rpc1.org/ or http://forum.rpc1.org (site with firmware for RPC1'ing DVD drives), they would get interested in it and would try to develop the firmware (some of them have already developed the RPC1 firmware stuff theirselves), or at least RPC1'ing the OEM firmware. What do you all think?

PLEXTOR has its own improvement to conventional CDs:

http://www.dvd-recordable.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=368

Doobie

24th April 2003, 19:38

Originally posted by oddball
Can burn to standard CD-R media too. No special media needed apparently. Also says it reads at 80x speed. Dunno how they figured that one out. I thought any CD spun at over 54x will explode!

Yes, exploding CDs are some of Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destruction. If someone smuggles in even one disk into the US it could cause destruction like the US has never seen before. However, weapons inspectors have failed to find any Iraqi CD drives that read faster than 54x.

Seriously, higher densities allow faster reading without spinning the disk faster because the data is closer together. DVDs can right data much tighter than CD writers. BTW, You can also put a couple of read heads on a CD reader and read it at 100X speed with it spinning no faster than normal (in fact, at least one company sells such CD readers).

Any DVD reader should be able to read these double density CDs with a firmware upgrade. It would be great if this became universally supported because blank CDs are dirt cheap. Alas, patent protection will keep it from happening. You might as well wait until blank DVDs are dirt cheap.

Scipio

24th April 2003, 21:35

BTW, You can also put a couple of read heads on a CD reader and read it at 100X speed with it spinning no faster than normal (in fact, at least one company sells such CD readers).

Kenwood had these drives... MultiBeam was the technology used for it (that's how marketing named it).

Some Taiwan-based company wanted to develop a DVD/CD reader based on such a technology... They wanted to make a 25x/100x drive (DVD/CD speed).

well... as far as I can see, they didn't succeed... perhaps the market for such a drive is too small -or- the drive would be too expensive... Hm, I would probably be a customer of such a drive, though. :D

flloyd

24th April 2003, 22:17

Originally posted by snn47
Mailorder or in store?

So far I couldn't find the Sanyo. It's sometimes listed, but neither price nor ETA is given and even in Akiba I couldn't find it over the past month.

It is available here (http://www.accupc.com/itemDetail.jsp?pid=dropdd0203&refer=PriceWatch). Search Pricegrabber or Pricewatch for DD0203.

marc_albero

25th April 2003, 02:07

You can call me mad, but...

Some months ago (six or so), I read in this forum one thread with a link to a press release where it was stated that (ehm) some optoelectronics company had developed a new type of (ehm) laser, that provided performance improvements to both CD and DVD drives. No new design needed for OEMs to do, just upgrading the laser component would allow to reach higher data capacity in common media.

I cannot find the thread anymore...

By The Way: does anybody know whether latest DVD drives support 90/99min media?

snn47

25th April 2003, 15:07

In principle that is imo true,
e.g. if you take a blue Laser that has a shorter wavelength then the ones now used in DVD-writers, you can write finer structures. But most likely not as easy as to just exchange the laser.

Since DVD-Lasers already write finer structures then needed for a CD-R(W), why didn't Sanyo just use the same length of pits as on DVD, but instead choose a larger one somewhere in size between DVD and CD. This could have provided a an even higher capacity for HD-Burn?

I would assume assume it has to do with the quality of the available CD's surface and in consequence with liability if it doesn't word as advertised. Or why does HD-Burn so far not support CD-RW discs?

However I didn't say that it couldn't be possible in the near future, that a modified extended HD-Burn couldn't be possible especially using 99' CD with a finer structure.

So far we just don't know the details so far, and due to the unavailbility of a larger HD-Burn user group have to wait a bit more to learn about the drawbacks.

me00lpw

25th April 2003, 20:33

Just a couple of things about these HD-Burn drives. As already mentioned, to get the extra capacity on a CD the data has to be burned in a tighter formation. Surely there's a physis limit to how much you can store on a CD. This limit would be down to the material properties of the CD, or rather of the refective surface being 'burnt'. If this wasn't the case we'd all be burning CDs in DVD burners at DVD capacities.

So what's my point? Well, OK so these HD burn drives might work on some CD-Rs and not on others. Or worse still they material properites of the CDs you use might be such that because you're used the CD-R in a way it wasn't really designed to work it works to begin with and then after a little time it stops working.

I'd need more technical info (preferably from the patent holders) on how exactly HD-Brun can gaurantee to work on all CD-Rs. Until then, or it's been in general use for a while without any issues I'd be careful.

Loz

marc_albero

25th April 2003, 20:43

Boys! I found the link I told you about.

Calimetrics Inc. Look for it.
Unluckily, it seems like it was dead (the roadmap times are gone and we haven't heard about it).

snn47

26th April 2003, 05:19

@me00lpw

This limit would be down to the material properties of the CD, or rather of the refective surface being 'burnt'. If this wasn't the case we'd all be burning CDs in DVD burners at DVD capacities.

Yes/no If drives would position the Laser by itself on the CD/DVD yes, but they use tracks already on the CD. I've read from some firm that increased the the number of tracks to beyond Red Book Specs, but were faced with the limited TOC(?) capacity of the standard. Thats why 99' CD have to use some out of spec workaround.
(Rem. Does anyone have a good link for an explanation haow that really works?). Since Sanyo must have been faced with the same limitation they must have at least doubled the "TOC's storage-capacity" of the red-book specs. Thats another reason I can think of why a firmware update is needed, so it can handle the increased capacity.

So since the track for writing is part of the DVD / CD's, smaller pit's will increase the capacity the number of tracks is smaller then on a DVD and therefor limits the achievable capacity, which is why you cannot reach that of DVD.

Another system-component I havn't thought of is the Laser-control circuit. Is this part of the chipset or an additional part of a drive?
Thought about it when I reread the news, that MAXIM semiconductor has a got the contract from some drive manufacterer for a new "all singing all DVD/CD" Laser-control-circuit.

Please correct/educate me where I am wrong.

@marc_albero
Is that the link you were looking for Pit Depth Modulation: Multiplying
the Capacity and Speed of CDs and DVDs (http://www.atp.nist.gov/eao/sp950-2/chapt4-4.pdf) ?

marc_albero

26th April 2003, 23:30

@snn47:

Yeah it is.
For the date of the paper you pointed out, they and their idea must be dead. It's terrible. They could have revolved the CD/DVD world. Yesterday I sent them an e-mail. Let's see if they are still alive and kicking.

Fingers crossed.

snn47

27th April 2003, 07:53

If my hunch about the CD-quality is right, then it's most likely a liability question too.

Can all the the (cheap) DVD-CD-surfaces handle such a burning and provide reliably data for say a min. of 10 years?

It's normally the burner-manufacterers who get accussed of providing bad products, not those who are responsible for it.

PS. found with froogle another dealer ETA April 25, 2003 294$ http://www.jazztechnology.biz/product/OPDD0203.

In my experience if prices go up a bit, it's normally a sign that the first products are really available for us to buy:rolleyes:

kxy

1st May 2003, 23:53

Has anyone test this yet? Things I want to confirm before I jump in is: xcd possibility, cd-readibility(i.e. no skips), is the burning reliable?

I might want to wait a bit for the plextor format...

Some more info at forum.firmware-flash.com...
http://forum.firmware-flash.com/viewtopic.php?p=51011#51011

"HD-Burn seems to be picky about what CD-R media it can work with. So far it likes HyperKmedia (CMC Magnetics). It tried both a 12x 700MB and a 24x 700MB certified medias. Burned at 24x and 20x without any problems. Medias that didn't work were a TDK 12x 650MB(Ritek) and a Great Quality 40x 700MB(ProDisc). Can't wait til DVD manufactures update their drive to read this stuff!

kxy

3rd May 2003, 10:05

More info and pic here:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/pc/docs/2002/0925/sanyo.htm

Seems like a lot of manufactures are going to support it. I think I am going to order.

Koepi

3rd May 2003, 10:13

That's definatly too much "????????" as for being informational ;-) (I don't have an IME setup on my western system - and even if I had, I don't quite understand japanese...). Can you give a brief summary?

At least that seem to be pictures and "screenshots" of HD-Burn in action.

Thanks,

Koepi

snn47

3rd May 2003, 13:25

Looks familiar, isn't this the ( September 25th of 2002 ) overview.

If in doubt babel your way through the www ( http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr ).

Two things I overlooked the first time is
1. the right pic of a DVD Player
DVD player DWM-380 (reforming) Does anyone know this model?

2.
In the future, with HD-BURN mode acceleration has made possible to the entry 36 time speed and the reading 80 time speed, being correspondence possible even in the CD-RW, it plans rewriting the maximum of 24 time speed. In addition, capacity is held down to 2 times from problem of compatibility of the existing equipment, but, you will aim toward the increase of capacity in the future to 3 times

Is this a babel-translation bug or what we speculated about?

kxy

9th May 2003, 00:54

Originally posted by Snn47
Is this a babel-translation bug or what we speculated about?
[/B]

It is technically possible, but if had they done that, I don't think any standard dvd-rom right now would be able to read it, in another word it will be against all the specs.

Originally posted by Koepi
Ok, looked at the links, only the sanyo-one brings up a "useful" page with plenty of dumb marketing blahblah on it.

Anyone care to post some technical related articles? Would be nice to evaluate the technique.

Koepi

Here is a little bit of tech info....

c) Summary: 1 HD-BURN disc equals with (1.49 X 1.35) = x2.0115 CD. The track pitch (1.6±0.1) and record area (radius 25mm) remained the same (else would need different media, like Sony's DDCD format).

Lastly, below is a comparison between CD and HD-BURN formats:

- CD Format: Data rate/Channel bit rate = (24x8/588)/(2048/2352) = 28.4% [ with Modulation 43% & Error Correction 65%]

- HD-BURN Format: Data rate/Channel bit rate = (16x2048x8)/(619008) = 42.3% [with Moduration 49% and Error Correction 87%]

read the rest here
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/PrinterFriendly.asp?RelatedID=2788

According to the link Sanyo will support "HD-BURN" at their DVD players, while the LSI chipsets will be available soon (with licence). That is pretty sweet. :)

Koepi

9th May 2003, 08:36

Thanks for the infos :)

Regards
Koepi

snn47

9th May 2003, 12:28

Thank you

My speculation on the how they did it

The use of a more efficient error correction as in HD-Burn, could/must have been used in Plextors GigaRec too.
How else to explain the increase from 700 to 1000MB?

The intresting detail about Gigarec is that with additional Software "not firmware!", you're supposed to be able to read these 1G-CD too, similar to the UDF-format that came with HP-CD-R(W).

I suppose the reader has to be raw compatible to allow access of the new format.

I wish both would be compatible, and just have a different pit size.

Question what do you think?
How about the TOC can they handle 1GB or do both formats write new TOC capeable to handle this

Atamido

9th May 2003, 20:27

Originally posted by snn47
The use of a more efficient error correction as in HD-Burn, could/must have been used in Plextors GigaRec too.
....
The intresting detail about Gigarec is that with additional Software "not firmware!", you're supposed to be able to read these 1G-CD too, similar to the UDF-format that came with HP-CD-R(W). \
I haven't read anything that would indicate that you need to install a software package to read the disks. The most I've seen is PCWorld (http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,110273,00.asp) saying:
In order to take advantage of the additional capacity, you must use Plextor's proprietary PlexTools software; at this time, popular burning packages such as Ahead Nero Burning ROM and Roxio's Easy CD and DVD Creator don't support GigaRec, or any of the other interesting features found on the PlexWriter Premium.
But this seems to indicate that its just the writing software that needs to be updated, not the reading software.

If this is true, then it would be using the exact same ECC methods as regular CD's. I wish there was some better documentation of this.

snn47

9th May 2003, 20:40

I just remembered that I read it on http://sg.hardwarezone.com/
called Plextor PlexWriter Premium 52x32x52x.
http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/articles.hwz?cid=10&aid=718
GigaRec Technology
GigaRec is arguably the most compelling (and exclusive) feature of the PlexWriter Premium drive. Just think of GigaRec as an "extension" of the drive's overburning capabilities. Where once you need to use a 99mins CD-R along with a drive that's capable of 99mins overburning, GigaRec will allow the Premium drive to write up to 980MB of data into an 80mins/700MB disc or 1.2GB into a 99mins/880MB CD-R. This function can only be accessible through the bundled PlexTools Professional software though.

Just looked at their forum

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Techno Pride
nvm i figured it out. no plextor software, so cant test the feature
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yup...exclusive features such as GigaRec and SecuRec require PlexTools Professional to function. And not just any PlexTools, but PlexTools Professional which will come with the drive and available @ a later date.

But nobody's to say future version of Nero Burning Rom won't support such features, so it's a wait-n-see here.

Meanwhile, we'll be doing another write up on the Premium drive based on its performance with PlexTools Pro. soon, so stay tuned!

Atamido

9th May 2003, 21:24

I had read that article earlier, and I remember being irritated that they didn't mention performing and GigaRec test. Thats the whole point of the drive, so why not test it.

As far as the quotes go, it still sounds to me like they are refering specificaly to the act of recording data. I still see no indication that you would need special software to read back the CD.

snn47

10th May 2003, 11:32

I lack detailed knowledge of the CD-standards so all is based on what I've read,

to be able to write/read 99' CD you have to add the information of the additional information/tracks, somewhere on the CD (=out of specs). In consequense not all all drives,DVD- or CD-R(W), can r/w these cd's.

To excced the density defined by standards Sanyo decided to use a more efficient error correction, then those currently used for CD (a VCD allows also larger files on a CD ).

In absense of details from Plextor I'd assume they have choosen more efficient error correction too (which?).Because

1. the achievable density is lower then HD-Burn using a CD-drive because you can't write/read smaller then CD-sized pits as Sanyos HD-Burn DVD-CD-R(W) does.

2.You have convert the "propriority" format from/to data again. Assuming the uses their drives capability to bit-nible a CD bit for bit, to use their own "propriority" format. Since this cannot be implemented in any other drives firmware (=disregard the normal CD-specs),
you have to tell the drive where to find what you want to read.
3.For this they need a modified/new >800MB capable TOC,

This is why I assume additional Software is needed just like for UDF HP used.

Atamido

10th May 2003, 22:46

kxy posted an excellent link about the Plextor drive over in this thread. (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=310613#post310613) There is some excellent information in the article, but here is the gist of what I got:

1. Writing the larger capacity requires writing to occur at 4x speed.
2. Drives that can read 99minute CD's can read these. No information about drives that can't read 99minute CD's.
3. No extra software is required to read the CD.
4. You can write to 4 different capacities. The higher the capacity, the more likely there will be an issue with reading the CD on a drive.

Still, the information wasn't very in depth for the GigaRec feature. I'm still hoping somebody with this drive comes along that can really put this feature to the test.

cooper99

18th May 2003, 06:58

I purchased the Optorite dd0203. I was able to burn regular cds (700mb) with no problem. Haven't tested the DVD option. However, I'm having a problem running HD-burn using B's Recorder Gold5 software. Maybe there's a problem reading certain cdr media. What do you think? I get this error everytime I use HD-burn option in Mode 1.

This is the error I get:
An ATAPI error occurred.
Hardware error.
< Error No : 51040904 >

Software doesn't allow me to HD-burn in Mode 2. What software were you using?

Does Nero support, or more importantly, allow you to burn using HD-burn? I have Nero 5.5.10.28 Enterprise, and there's no indication there that it allows you to HD-burn.

snn47

22nd May 2003, 05:21

Within the last month a Nero release claimed to have HD-Burn support too. Since I had a HDD-crash and lost my backup too on tuesday the 13th I can't tell you the source any more, but it was the general update info on Nero.

snn47

25th May 2003, 21:14

I have now Nero 5.5.10.7 and it lists HD-Burn in the extended Menu

cooper99

5th June 2003, 20:31

It happens that Optorite released an update firmware for their DD0203 drive. I had flashed my drive since then, and can't tell what has changed. I still can't write with hd-burn. I am constantly getting "track following errors" with three different medias (Khypermedia, Memorex, and Pine), using Nero 5.5.10.35. Has anyone successfully written their cdr's using hd-burn and could you share your experiences with us? Does the Optorite DD0203 have its own set of drivers, instead of what microsoft detects and uses?

cooper99

18th June 2003, 07:35

I was able to burn with hd-burn --> 1.4gb data on a cd-r (for now, the dd0203 from optorite is very specific in what media it gets to eat <hd-burn bib> ehheh. The burned disk was done under mode 1. My problem is getting mode 2 to work under nero, which it so happens to be disabled in lieu with hd-burn. Until that happens, I guess I'm happy with 1.4gb? for the time being.

snn47

18th June 2003, 10:34

Congrats, good to hear that it really works.

How old was your Nero, maybee it's just your version?

From others that burn a lot of (S)VCD I've had the comment that sometimes a bug might reappear in the next version, while others have been solved. So maybee it's just the version you have. The last Nero update I saw listed was 5.5.10.35.

The Edge

18th June 2003, 11:25

Interesting tread.
A quick look over on nero's support:
http://www.nero.com/en/content/c1022499813328.html
Changes From Nero 5.5.10.7 to 5.5.10.15a
Bug Fixes :
Improved error handling when Nero is about to read CD descriptions from the Internet database
Fixed a problem, needing to much time to save tracks from Audio CDs under Windows XPTM
Display the average speed in burn status dialog and not, like before, the last measured speed
Fixed a Audio CD problem which disturbed the playback on some CD players
After writing 2nd session on DVD-RW few data from 1st session have been unreadable sometimes with some drives that behaviour is corrected
Correct the track size of the last track in case of DVD+R VR recorded discs
Bug fix for displaying HD-BURN capacity of an empty CD media
Release date: February 28th, 2003
Changes From Nero 5.5.10.28 to 5.5.10.35
Bug Fixes :
Solved a problem with some drives which occurred sometimes when getting a disc status in case of empty DVD media
Solved a small caching problem while trying to drag and drop files from a CD-ROM
Speed up UDF compilation verification
Fixed a problem with CD TEXT on Mixed Mode CD and CD EXTRA which only occurred in rare cases
New:
Added several new recorders
Added multi-session mode for HD-BURN
Support of 32x ultra speed media
Improvement of handling the book type
Release date: June 3rd, 2003
Might shed some light on your problem?

Been a long time since I first heard about HD-Burn.....assumed it was binned. I'll have to look into it again.

Edge

cooper99

18th June 2003, 21:02

Yes, hd-burn is nice to play with, especially since it is a new technology. I am hoping that Optorite comes out with new firmware that expands on the media you are able to use with hd-burn, in particular, cd-r's manufactured by CMC Magnetics. I have too many of those lying around. Now, does quality of the cd-r matter for hd-burning to be successful? All you need is a firmware change, correct? Typically, almost any brand of cd-r (700mb) could be done under Mode2, so I am just wondering. Isn't multi-session literally, multi-session? How is this related to Mode1/Mode2 ?

Animaniac

19th June 2003, 02:47

What happened to the firmware updates for DVD-ROMs to play HD-Burn discs...

cooper99

22nd June 2003, 06:00

I've noticed that when viewing xvid/divx/etc. movie clips from a cd-r recorded by hd-burn, that it plays a lot more smoothly with less skipping or lagging than a disc burned with the usual 700mb. Has anyone noticed that?

WorldBook

22nd June 2003, 06:47

Can those who have succesfully conducted hd-burns with NERO describe their procedure (put 1.4 gb of data on a 700 mb cd-r/rw)? Also, what version of NERO supports these features?

Thanks :)

cooper99

22nd June 2003, 07:52

I am using Nero 5.5.10.28. Start Nero > Nero Wizard pops up > click Close Wizard > change to HD-BURN in the dropdown tab. Ok, you have to be using cdr's from Fujifilm "made in Japan" (Taiyo Yudens), or Maxell (Ritek) or any other brand made by Ritek. These are considered high quality media and you should be able to make 1.4gb data cd's. I also updated firmware to 2.06, but I don't know if that has anything to do with successful hd-burning.

WorldBook

22nd June 2003, 16:50

Thanks!

WorldBook

24th June 2003, 16:07

Cooper99 I can't seem to find the "Drop down menu" you mention for hd-burning. I am using NERO 5.5.10.35 All I see is a "HD BACKUP" (which apparently backups the harddrive).

Thanks :)

cooper99

24th June 2003, 23:02

Worldbook - Ok, open Nero. Click file > new (for new compilation), now, you'll see CD on the top left of that box. Scroll it and you'll see HD-burn. Thus, you can now make various hd-burn types.

WorldBook

24th June 2003, 23:08

Unfortunately all I see is:

CD-ROM (ISO)
AUDIO CD
MIXED MODE CD
CD EXTRA
CD COPY
VIDEO CD
SUPER VIDEO CD
CD-ROM (BOOT)
CD-ROM (HYBRID)
CD-ROM (UDF)
CD-ROM (UDF/ISO)

Should I then downgrade to an older NERO Version?

WorldBook

25th June 2003, 00:55

I'm guessing this means my LGE CD-writer doesn't support hd-burn.

cooper99

25th June 2003, 21:02

That could be the case. I am using Optorite dd0203 which does support it.

cooper99

25th June 2003, 21:06

Worldbook - That list you gave me, you have to look above that list. That bar which says CD, you can change that to HD-burn. I'm sorry, but if you still don't see it, I can't help you any further with it.

kxy

26th June 2003, 01:32

Originally posted by cooper99
I was able to burn with hd-burn --> 1.4gb data on a cd-r (for now, the dd0203 from optorite is very specific in what media it gets to eat <hd-burn bib> ehheh. The burned disk was done under mode 1. My problem is getting mode 2 to work under nero, which it so happens to be disabled in lieu with hd-burn. Until that happens, I guess I'm happy with 1.4gb? for the time being.

You should perform a quality test on your burnt cdr. At least scan the Cx error by using a program called CD-Doctor. With my experience, the plextor's HD-burn have enormous Cx errors!!! :eek:

\AX

27th June 2003, 11:35

You shouldnt be able to do MODE 2 with HD-BURN. I think you can do it with DDCD but not with HD-BURN. I think i read in DiscJuggler's documentation about this limitation. Look at's documentation for it supports this aswell.

Also something off the wall, i can burn a extra 15mb of data with discjuggler that no other app will let me do. Usually if windows says my divx files are ~716 MB through explorer...that is max unless i want to overburn. But with nero i can do ~732 without it going into overburn. So possibly Discjuggler, in the case of HD-BURN, will give you a extra 30mb...not much but could help.

snn47

1st July 2003, 21:02

Read today the review in c't about the new Plextor drive (German PC-paper heise.de) even though not very detailed provided some new info on Giga-Rec.
Giga Rec
- writes smaller pits
- limited to max. 4x speed
- Burn-Proof turned off
- seems to be flexible you can choose e.g. 120% up to 140%
- no external read support found on all their available readers.

So both have the same problem
they find a way to make it readable in other drives as well.

All in all Gigarec doesn't sound as convincing as HD-Burn.

snn47

5th July 2003, 21:53

Even so it's not specifically advertised as such
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?threadid=71158&highlight=hdburn

dvd_maniac

10th July 2003, 09:10

I would love to plunge into hd-burn if it can do vcd's. I am new to vcd's but I think they are written in mode-2, So they can't take advantage of hd?

snn47

10th July 2003, 13:42

If Sanyo would provide the promised Firmware-Upgrade for DVD-drives (at least for their own brand and OEM) it should be possible.

cooper99

14th July 2003, 15:19

Has anyone tried burning an vcd/xvcd/svcd using hd-burn and was able to play it off their stand-alone dvd player?

snn47

18th July 2003, 06:46

I just found that CDR-Info has a review on the Optorite DD0203
HD-Burn is on page 10 review on the Optorite DD0203
HD-Burn (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=Optorite+DD0203+DVD%B1RW&index=10)

cooper99

19th July 2003, 18:17

I was able to burn using Fujifilm DVD-R 1-2x purchased at bestbuy. The real identification for these disks are the RitekG03, which makes them other than Taiyo Yudens. That means if I need more of these babies, then I'll buy in bulk, and ID-d as RitekG03. I believe RitekG04 are rated as 4x. Using the Optorite dd0203, I successfully burned 15-20+ using this brand of dvd, no coasters, and with firmware 2.09.

snn47

6th September 2003, 11:05

optorite dd0203 combo burner with High Density CDR=1.4GB, $145 retail (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=368350#post368350) !
At a last check + - a few $ at other dealers:)

DD0203 FW 2.16 2003.8.12 www.optorite.com

snn47

6th September 2003, 13:40

Support CD-R Media List for HD-BURN (http://www.digital-sanyo.com/BURN-Proof/HD-BURN/hd-product.html )
Maybee someone can format the list as table then I'll remove this crude copy

Quote:
Here is information about the media, which has been confirmed by our drive for normal writing and reading performance.This does not mean we guarantee the performance of writing or recorded data for all listed media, because the recorded media's performance varies with storage and environmental conditions (especially temperature) while writing. Manufacturer R Model Number Speed
CMC R @ 48x or more

DAXON R @ 48x or more

FUJIFILM R CD-R 700MB 52x 52x

HITACHI MAXELL R CDR650.*, CDR700.*, CDR650S.*, CDR700S.*,
CD-R650, CD-R700, CD-R PRO, CD-RPW,
CD-RB, CD-RBS, CD-RP,
CD-R 80XL *, CD-R 80 XL CMX *, CD-R 80 PR*
48x

MBI R CDR-80MBI 48x or more

MITSUBISHI CHEMICAL R SR74K*, SR80K* 48x

RICOH R CDR80-40X 40x

RiTEK R CD-R74JS, CD-R80JS 48x

TAIYO YUDEN R CDR-80*, CDR-74* 48x

TDK R(JP) CD-R74TF* ,CD-R80TF*, CD-R74TW*, CD-R80TW*, CD-R74T*, CD-R80T*, CDR80TBL*, CD-R80TGR*, CD-R80TPK*, 40x

R(AA) CD-R80*, CD-R80SCM*, CD-R80CM*, CD-R80BL* ,CD-R80GR*, CD-R80RD*, CD-R80YE*, CD-R80VI*, CD-R-80BL*, CD-R80G*, CD-R80GS*, CD-R80PW*, 40x or more

R(US) CD-R74, CD-R80, CD-R74P, CD-R80P, CD-R74PT, CD-R80PT, CD-R80PW, CD-R74PTW, CD-R80PTW, CD-R74PM, CD-R80PM, CD-R74M*, CD-R80M*, CD-R74S10, CD-R80S10, CD-R80M10STPQ, BCD-R80M10STPQ, CD-R74CB*, CD-R80CB, CD-R74PCB50, CD-R80PCB50, CD-R74MPTWCB50, CD-R74PTCB50, CD-R80PTCB50, CD-R74PWCB50, CD-R80PWCB50, CD-R80H20, CD-R80LB50, CD-R74TWN*, CD-R80TWN*, CD-R80TWNM*, CD-R80TWNC*, CD-R74PH*, CD-R80PH*, ZCD-R74SC, ZCD-R74PSC, ZCD-R80SC, CD-R80P, CD-R80-Z, CD-R80TWN-Z, SCWA-ADP74PT, NCD-R80P, NCD-R80PW, NCD-R74P, NCD-R74PW, NCD-R74, NCD-R80BCX, SCWA-ETC80CX, 40x or more

R(EU) CD-R80CMEB-DC, CD-RSX80EA-DC, CD-RDV80MEB-LC, CD-RDV80PEB-LC, CD-RDV80YEB-LC, CD-RDV80GEA-LC, CD-R80CBMEA50-RB, CD-RSX80EA-DD, CD-RSX80EA10P-FC, CD-R80CBMEA50-VC, CD-R80CBMEA25-VC, PCD-R80PTWIR, PCD-R80PTWHITE, PCD-R80INKJET 48x or more

Verbatim R(US) 94353, 94637, 94354, 94356, 94430, 94357, 94398, 94431, 94359, 94360, 94361, 94371, 94625, 94372, 94370, 94362, 94363, 94624, 94364, 94365, 94491, 94581, 94582, 94614, 94615, 94355, 94399, 94367, 94366, 94635, 94368, 94369, 94576, 94521, 94577, 94522, 94578, 94595, 94611, 94579, 94691, 94523, 94594, 48x

R(EU) 43325, 43327, 43329, 43377, 43322, 43342, 43384, 43385, 43308, 43414, 43343,
43352, 43430, 43348, 43351, 43353, 43417, 43418
48x
RiUS) 94554, 94593 52x

* The model number varies according to the packaging style.
For the items which product numbers are blank, currently inquiring.
In case of OEM-based products, the product numbers may not be specified.
Actual write speed may be lower than the specified speed for data protection reason.
(JP)Japan Market, (AA)Asia/Oceania/Africa Market, (US)North America Market, (EU)Europe Market

this compatibility list is from Optorite DD0203 (http://www.optorite.com/products.htm)
Recommend HD-BURN media for OptoRite DD0203 (DVD¡ÓRW)
Maker Lead-in Lead-out
Taiyo yuden 972401 795972
Hitachi maxell 972529 795974
Ricoh 972267 795971
Ritek 971517 795970
Ritek 973107 744501

Unquote
Another larger thread dealing with problems
Optorite DD0203 DVD+/-RW drive info on the firmware page forum (http://forum.rpc1.org/viewtopic.php?t=13300&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=dd0203&start=0)

snn47

27th September 2003, 06:59

After availability was limited to AUS only MSI made a worl-wide press release for their HD-Burn DVD-CD(W) now called
MSI DR4-A MS-8404.

If it's identical to the AUS DD0203 it's MSI copy/clone of the Sanyo drive. Last time I looked the drive was not listed in any price search DB, suggested retail 169€ that is with 2 year warrenty in EUR opposed to the 1 year if you get the optorite in the US.

snn47

25th October 2003, 07:44

While I couldn't confirm/find it on MSI pages yet there will be a new faster Modell out around the end of the year
and
~70€ cheap X48 CD-R(W)/DVD-R Combo-Drive with a High-Density Modus (1,4GB =HD-Burn??)
The picture doesn't give a Type name http://www.hardtecs4u.de/images/news/MSI_X48_1.jpg
http://www.hardtecs4u.com/?id=1066913711,18511,ht4u.php.

This would (when true) be the first non DVD-CDR(W) to finally support HD-Burn.

PS.: About the naming from MSI and their daughters Optorite and Accesstec I'm wondering a bit

The MSI DR4-A is suddenly available as a retail version
MSI MS-8404A at alternate.de.

In Australia the drive was called DD0203 and not DR-4A and mostly I could't find an official listing for them at MSI-pages. While the drives exist if you buy them they don't exist according to MSI ?????