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Bulma
22nd September 2002, 14:09
Maybe this can help someone...
Here`s how to convert DVD to WMV9 with 5.1 audio

Software needed:
DVD Decrypter 3.1.2.0
DVD2AVI 1.76
AVISYNTH 2.05 (don`t forget to execute INSTALL.REG, and COPY AVISYNTH.DLL TO WINDOWS\SYSTEM DIRECTORY!!!)
MPEG2DEC2.DLL (needed for AviSynth, copy it to AviSynth directory)
BeSweet 1.3
BeSweetGUI 0.6
WME9 Beta

1. Ripping
Open DVD Decrypter, change destination directory and press DVD->Hard button. This will take about 10-15 minutes. Close it.

2. Converting to AVS and AC3
Start DVD2AVI, go FILE/OPEN and select first ripped VOB file. Go AUDIO/DOLBY_DIGITAL and select DEMUX. Select VIDEO/CROP, and find out how much you have to crop from top and bottom (usualy 72 or 80 pixels). Deselect CROP because we will use WME9 for croping, not DVD2AVI. This step is required because it`s hard to find out how much croping is needed in WME9(no real time preview in WME9). Go FILE/SAVE_PROJECT to save d2v file to disk. It will take some 20 minutes. You can also press F5 for preview to see if source is interlaced or not (it`s usually not). Close it.
Next, we create AviSynth script file (.avs). Open notepad, and write following lines (without minuses, and don`t forget to set path to YOUR files):
----------------------------------------------------------
LoadPlugin("C:\ADD_YOUR_PATH_TO_FILE\MPEG2DEC2.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\ADD_YOUR_PATH_TO_FILE\movie.d2v").Crop(0,80,0,-80)
----------------------------------------------------------
80 and -80 in CROP are TOP and BOTTOM values we found in DVD2AVI (usually 72 or 80).
Save file as "SOMETHING.avs"

3. Converting AC3 to multiple WAVs.
Open BeSweetGUI. On upper left corner, under LOCATIONS group, BESWEET.EXE option, press SELECT SOURCE and set location of BeSweet.exe file. This step is required only when you use this GUI for the first time. Press OK. Next, under same group, INPUT option, press SELECT SOURCE and select .AC3 file created with DVD2AVI in previous section. Maybe you`ll need to set file type to .ac3 in SELECT INPUT dialog box (drop down menu on right top) before selecting AC3 file. Press OK. Under same group, OUTPUT option, select output filname (this is name of WAVs we are creating, so any name would be fine), and press OK. Now, under OUTPUT group, select SIX WAVES from drop down menu. SSRC and BOOST should be deselected, and AZID group should be selected. In OTA group, select DVD2AVI option. This will set delay to WAVs according to DVD2AVI (in reality from filename). Other options under this group should be deselected. Press "AC3 TO WAV" button (green button on right side). Command prompt will be opened, and transcoding will began. After about 20 minutes it will be completed, and you`ll have six WAV`s for use in WME9. Close BeSweetGUI.

4. Converting
Open WME9 beta. Close wizard (we wont use it). Go to Properties (from main toolbar).
Tabs:
a) Sources
Set NAME (optional, doesn`t really have any function)
Source from -> set to BOTH DEVICE AND FILE
Select VIDEO, from drop down menu -> BROWSE_FOR_FILE, and select AVS file (you`ll need to set type to ALL FILES, *.*)
Select AUDIO, from drop down menu -> MULICHANNEL WAV SOURCE. Press CONFIGURE, and set WAV files: FL-front left, FR-front right, C-front center, SL-back left, SR-back right, LFE-low frequency.Press APPLY and OK.
b) Output
Deselect PULL FROM ENCODER and set ENCODE TO FILE, press BROWSE and set final output filename.
c) Compression
Press EDIT.
Select AUDIO, and set AUDIO CODEC to WMA9 Professional, set VBR MODE to BIT RATE VBR
Select VIDEO, and set VIDEO CODEC to WMV9, set VBR MODE to BIT RATE VBR
Deselect CHECK FOR COMPATIBILITY WITH WMP7, and set ALLOW NON-SQUARE PIXEL OUTPUT
Select next tab (282Kbps or similar)
Select AUDIO FORMAT -> 384Kbps, 48KHz, 5.1 Channel, 24 bit VBR
Set VIDEO SIZE to 720x416 (for PAL with 2x80 crop (576-top/bottom crop), or other ORIGINAL resolution with crop). This is required as WME9 can`t recognize resolution from .AVS file.
Set FRAME RATE to 25.00 (for PAL)
Set KEY FRAME INTERVAL to 4 sec or similar
Set VIDEO BIT RATE to required bitrate (around 1150Kpbs for 2hour movie on 2x70 minutes CDs)
Set DECODER COMPLEXITY to COMPLEX (not sure about this)
Press OK
Press OK
d) Video Size
Set PIXEL ASPECT RATIO to CUSTOM, and put some values like 19:14 to get OUTPUT ASPECT RATIO of original movie like 2.35:1 or similar (see DVD box).
e) Attributes
Set NAME and other stuff here (optional)
f) Processing
Set VIDEO to DEINTERLACE if needed.
NOTE: DON`T DO THIS IF MOVIE IS NOT INTERLACED.
Press APPLY and close Properties.
Press START ENCODING.
OPTIONAL:
Close AUDIO and VIDEO panel (you may get some encoding speed increase... maybe).
Go to sleep.
After around 10-20 hours, close WME9.

4. OPTIONAL: SPLIT FILE for 2CDs
Open WINDOWS MEDIA FILE EDITOR
Press FILE/OPEN, and open final WMV file. Set some middle of file and press MARK OUT. Go FILE/SAVE_AS_AND_INDEX and save WMV for first CD. Close WINDOWS MEDIA FILE EDITOR. Open it again, and open final WMV again. This time select same middle and press MARK IN. Go FILE/SAVE_AS_AND_INDEX and save WMV for second CD.

huch
22nd September 2002, 16:59
good article. just a couple of comments:

1. I don't know why but I can simply load .AVS (with crop) into the WME9, although WME9 does not show the properties correctly (unlike .AVI) but the encoding (frame by frame) worked just fine, and it seems faster than using VFAPI (fake .AVI). Anyone tried this yet? (I encoded 2 DVDs in this way)

2. For 6-channel WMA9Pro, since most movies are dialog-intensive, I personally use 192Kbps/48KHz/24Bit VBR, and the result sounds just fine. Also, if you would choose to use 384Kbps, the original 5.1 channel AC3 is also 384Kbps (6.1 channel in 448Kbps) so you might as well choose not to re-encode the audio to WMA9Pro.

hope it's helpful...

Bulma
23rd September 2002, 08:19
I haven`t use AviSynth before, but I`ll give it a try. I`ll do some testing as soon as i get another DVD... I like VFAPI because I can read AVIs in WMP, Vegas Video, etc... and yes... it`s sloooow.

About the audio, I don`t use original AC3 audio because:
1. You have to have Audio decoder installed to play it
2. I haven`t find a way to mux AC3 with WMV9 :o

I still have to check issue about center channel... as soon as I get 5.1. system :D

Kyo
23rd September 2002, 08:26
Hi Bulma.

Thanks for the guide, and yes avisynth is the present & future ;)

atracus
23rd September 2002, 10:31
Originally posted by Bulma

...
Select AUDIO, from drop down menu -> BROWSE_FOR_FILE, and select AC3 file
...


First of all, thanks for the guide, it matches most of my experimented "ways" to use WMEnc9, since its latest beta availability.

Only one question, which may possibly sound naive and have an easy-answer: what IF the .ac3 has a non-zero DELAY, i.e. DELAY(-80) or so? Won't it cause desynch to have it merged as a straight Source, as you suggest?

In case of non-zero delays, atm I prefer to have the damn 6 waves-out, and merge them as Multichannel - but I'm ready to change my mind!

Any clue?

[atx]

Bulma
24th September 2002, 00:43
atracus, yes that would cause desync. But I am not sure that 80ms is something that can really be heard as desync...
Anyway, I have updated my guide, this time with 6 WAVs, so problem solved :cool:

chris25fr
24th September 2002, 23:57
thinks too . ;)


But i think it's important to speak about bug with wme9 .


i see 2 bugs at least.


With windows 2000 , impossible to use mark in file option (else wme crashes)
Therefore , when i select a vob at the begining ,wme gives me a wrong input resolution : something like 544*576 instead of 720*576 . impossible to correct that. So the aspect ratio is not respected .

Bulma
25th September 2002, 07:33
There are many bugs... ;) Crashing, corrupted or no sound, and lists goes on and on...

Have you tried setting output resolution to 720x576? When it starts encoding, does it say 720x576 or 544*576?
Anyway, you can always use DVD2AVI method...

I made some test with 2 minutes clip:
AviSynth vs VFAPI round 1 ;)
----------------------------
AVS VFAPI
1. pass 6:27 7:20
2. pass 7:06 7:33
total 13:33 14:53
ratio 1 1.1

This round belongs to..... AVISYNTH!!!!
:devil:

Bulma
26th September 2002, 10:14
I had it in my previous Guide (v1.0) ;) But, after some reported that it gives you 4.1 instead of 5.1, I decided to use BeSweet. Now, I am having problems using MultipleWAVS method, instead of encoding WAVs, it encodes from sound card input, and of course get no sound at all. Can someone help me with this???

For AC3 sound, you have to install Audio codec (not needed if you installed WinDVD), add key in registry: [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\InterVideo\Common\Aud
ioDec]
"Audio"=dword:00000005

and then use AC3 as audio source, instead of MultChannelWavsource.
Ok?

PS: You can find previous version of Guide, at www.divx-digest.com forum, other, Authoring/Conversion/Encoding.

Tom Servo
28th September 2002, 14:10
It tells me a "Class not registered" error on the video source, which is an AVS.

Bulma
29th September 2002, 08:22
Did you execute INSTALL.REG in AviSynth dir? Try to open AVS in Virtual dub or other program that can open AVS...

atracus
29th September 2002, 08:39
Originally posted by Bulma
atracus, yes that would cause desync. But I am not sure that 80ms is something that can really be heard as desync...
Anyway, I have updated my guide, this time with 6 WAVs, so problem solved :cool:

Bulma,
I found a different possible approach: using AC3Machine, you can just re-encode an .ac3 with identical characteristics but with null delay.

Then feed the ac3 to WMEnc as you first suggested.

Advantage: speed (creating 6x wavs on my HD is a pain) and, maybe, quality.

Your opinion?

[atx]

Tom Servo
29th September 2002, 16:28
I did run install.reg.

lat3ralis
3rd October 2002, 12:57
@Bulma:

Your guide is good, but there must be a better way of using avs with wm9enc.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could use avs scripts for the video. You wouldn't have to mess around using wm9enc's buggy crop and resize features.

The only tools i could find to do this (in a round about way) are an addon for VFAPI which allows avs input and link2 (which isn't free). The problem with VFAPI is that it creates huge avi wrapper files.

I appreciate that getting direct input for avs in wm9enc is probably difficult (or even impossible), but does anyone have any ideas??

lat3ralis

Bulma
3rd October 2002, 13:59
You can use it! I use Crop from AVS in my Guide, see:
----------------------------------------------------------
LoadPlugin("C:\ADD_YOUR_PATH_TO_FILE\MPEG2DEC2.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\ADD_YOUR_PATH_TO_FILE\movie.d2v").Crop(0,80,0,-80)
----------------------------------------------------------
ok?

WME9 actually can open AVS files, it only displays information wrong, but as soon as it starts encoding, everything goes well...

Nic
3rd October 2002, 14:52
Use my encoder listed in this forum & at http://nic.dnsalias.com for avs encoding, unless you want to do 5.1 sound (the only thing my encoder cant do :( )

I have a feeling that the avs reading by the MS Windows Media Encoder, is being done by DirectShow rather than the AVI API & hence it works for some & not for others. This could be bad because peculiar color conversions can occur.
(this doesn't happen with my encoder of course ;) )

-Nic

tanksimpson
3rd October 2002, 22:30
I just wanted to mention that WME9 could not open .avs when I had Avisynth 1.06 installed, but when I upgraded to Avisynth 2.05, it worked. Dunno what it means, if anything. BTW, this is on Windows 2000.

lat3ralis
3rd October 2002, 23:15
@Bulma:

I suppose i should have explained myself better....

My real aim for wm9 encoding is to be able to use an avs script which both crop's and resizes the video without having to stuff around with setting the video size in wm9 encoder. I am especially interested in using the Lanczos Resize filter and Nic's MPEGDecoder in avs to decode,crop and resize the video.

Here is an example script i want to use:

LoadPlugin ("C:\program files\gordianknot\MPEGDECODER.dll")
MPEGSource ("D:\LOTR_THE_FELLOWSHIP_OF_THE_RING\vts_01_4.vob", -2)
NicCrop(0,0,76,76)
LanczosResize(640,256)

@Nic:

I would usually use your encoder to encode it, only i want 5.1 audio in my encode. I have tried doing video and audio separately, but when i mux the streams i get weird results.

Thankyou for your help,

lat3ralis

Nic
4th October 2002, 11:31
Hi, I understand that, I wish I could get AC3 -> WM9 5.1 working, but its very tricky.

@tank: Have you tried installing the huffyuv codec? Install that & you might find you can use avs files straight into WME9.
(its just a guess, but huffyuv supports YUY2 & is commonly used when DirectShow is used to decode AVS files)

-Nic

kastro68
7th June 2003, 18:04
Is there a way to demux a wmv9 video and audio?

Thanks

SeeMoreDigital
7th June 2003, 23:07
kastro68

If you are talking about the WinMediaEncoder9 (that produces .wmv/.wma files) you can demux the video and audio streams by using the 'windows media stream editor'

Bulma
Your article is very useful. Thanks.

Currently, when I want to create a WME9 file. I rip the DVD using DVDdecrypter and then I separately encode the video and audio streams (video = .vob or m2v etc / audio = .ac3 or .wav etc) by using M$ own 'WinMedia Encoder' which in turn creates .wmv and .wma streams.

I then mux the .wmv and .wma streams together using the 'windows media stream editor'. It has not failed me yet although it takes me a very long time to encode!

But, I must admit I am very interested in creating 5.1 .wma audio from an .ac3 stream. So I will give BeSweat a go.

Thanks again

kastro68
8th June 2003, 07:21
Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

If you are talking about the WinMediaEncoder9 (that produces .wmv/.wma files) you can demux the video and audio streams by using the 'windows media stream editor'


Is 'windows media stream editor' an M$ software? Does it come with Wind0es Media 3ncode|2? or is it a third party software?

I'm not familiar with M$ tools, so I'm totally clueless.

Thanks for your reply, I always thought it was impossible to demux wmv files

SeeMoreDigital
8th June 2003, 10:55
Hi kastro68

Yes, the 'windows media stream editor' is an M$ software.

It's included within the 'WinMedia Encoder9' download, which also includes, File Editor & Profile Editor!

feliz
19th June 2003, 05:39
I have been able to use virtualdub to mux ac3 with wmv9 to get a playable avi. I like for my ceceiver to decode the surround sound.

snowcrash
24th June 2003, 07:25
Hey folks. In this other thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32913&highlight=wmenc+avs) people were saying that they could open VoB files directly with WM Encoder 9, as long as they had WinDVD or PowerDVD installed. I'm having no luck with this. I have the latest version of the encoder app and I have WinDVD installed, but when I try to load a VOB file the encoder hangs and I have to "end task" it. Has anyone had luck with VOB files?

McoreD
25th November 2003, 13:41
Hi there guys,

Read this impressive guide of DVD to WMV9 with WMA9 Pro 5.1 Channel by Bulma. This is the most complete guide so far which I have read for such purpose.

However some of the contents now needs to be updated.

This is my question:

Q1. In his post Bulma says to obtain:
AVISYNTH 2.05 (don`t forget to execute INSTALL.REG, and COPY AVISYNTH.DLL TO WINDOWS\SYSTEM DIRECTORY!!!)
MPEG2DEC2.DLL (needed for AviSynth, copy it to AviSynth directory)

But now the current version of AVISYNTH is v2.5.2. I downloaded it from here:
.http://flow.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/avisynth2/AviSynth_252.exe
It doesn't appear to have INSTALL.REG he was mentioning. Probably because the versions are now different. I hope we no longer need to excute a Install.reg, am I correct?

Q2. I downloaded the Avisynth.dll and MPEG2DEC2.dll anyways, from here:
.http://www.puremotion.com/downloads/thirdparty/avisynth-0.3.zip
.http://mywebpages.comcast.net/trbarry/MPEG2DEC2.zip
Are they the latest versions of those dlls? I checked the main site doom9.org but I couldn't find a seperate download for those two dlls.

Thank you very much. :)

bleo
25th November 2003, 14:08
A1. The current version of AviSynth is 2.5.3. Don't worry about install.reg or avisynth.dll; they're old :)

A2. You should now use DVD2AVIdg and MPEG2DEC3dg: http://neuron2.net/fixd2v/decodefix.html. They fix a truncated frames bug.

Good luck! :)

[edit] Fullstop buggered the link :rolleyes:

McoreD
28th November 2003, 07:37
Hi,

I updated Bulma's Guide to match with current software versions. I can't wait till I actually put this into practise. Waiting till my new computer arrives. :D

To make sure everyone who are willing to rip DVDs into WMV9 with WMA95.1), if Bulma or other knowledgable person can recheck the http://microsoftusernetwork.com/mcored Guide, that would be great! :)

Thanks again,
Yours McoreD.

zambelli
28th November 2003, 12:16
I have a few comments.

For a start, the AC3 -> WMA9Pro conversion can be automated by using a batch file and wmcmd.vbs. The way to do 5.1 encoding with wmcmd.vbs is through the use of WME profiles. Essentially, you create a dummy project in GUI-based WME9 in which you set to encode 6 mono WAVs into a 5.1 WMA9Pro file. You save the project as an .wme file and then you open it in Notepad and do the following: find the input and output file paths and make them relative paths (i.e. instead of c:\mydvd\inputFR.wav make it just inputFR.wav); change the input and output filenames so they follow an easy pattern (i.e. input*.wav and output.wma). Now save the .wme. Now you need to code up a batch file that does the following:

besweet.exe -core( -input input.ac3 -output input -6ch ) -azid (...)
cscript wmcmd.vbs -wme myprofile.wme

Essentially, Besweet will decode the AC3 file into 6 mono WAV files, all following an input*.wav naming pattern. When you start up the WME9 encoder, it will automatically look for those files in the current directory and encode them to output.wma. If you're doing a lot of AC3->WMA conversions, this is a much faster way to do it then having to deal with a GUI encoder.

Sorry for the sloppy explanation... I can elaborate if necessary.

I don't think 128kbps is good enough for encoding 5.1 sound. Think about it. 128 / 6 is 21.3. That's 21.3 kbps for each channel. That's the equivalent of encoding stereo sound at 42 kbps. I really don't think that's enough. I would recommend 384kbps for 5.1 sound. That's more like 128kbps for stereo and will sound much better.

From my experience, WME can recognize the resolution of the .avs file. I always set it size to "same as input" and never have any trouble. But then again, I tend to resize and crop in .avs to make things go faster in WME.

Finally, let me just stress that setting pixel aspect ratios is a very useful method of saving bitrate. Encoding a widescreen video as 640x480 with a 4:3 PAR is much more bitrate efficient than encoding the movie as a 856x480 with a 1:1 PAR.

McoreD
30th November 2003, 06:01
Thank you zambelli. I didn't really know that the bitrate has to divided to determine the quality in one channel. I thought the same (128kbps) will be heard in all the channels. I was wrong.
If that's the case, I think 384kbps becomes our only choice because we want *at least* 384kbps to output 384/6 = 64kbps for each channel.

I also prefer with the setting Video Size as Same as Video Input. I thought Bulma had some special reason to put a value in there. If nothing wrong putting Same as Video Input, I am definitely putting that setting. Thanks for that advice.

I still couldn't understand how the Pixel Aspect Ratio works. In your example you have set the PAR to 4:3 for a video with 640 * 480 resolution. I can understand how you got 4:3, 640/480 = 1.333:3 = 4:3.
That 640 * 480, is it the input video resolution or the resolution of the output after cropped?
I will bring it this way: Say the video in the DVD has a resolution of 720 * 576. From DVD2AVI, we determine that 80 can be cropped from Top and Bottom to get rid of the Black space. Then the output video resolution is 720 * 416, ok?
Now when determining the PAR ratio, do we use the original 720 * 576 = 5:4 or cropped 720:416 = 7:4 ? I hope you understand my doubt. :)

zambelli
30th November 2003, 12:26
Sorry, I think my previous PAR example might've confused you. Let me start again.

PAR is Pixel Aspect Ratio, not Picture Aspect Ratio. It determines the shape of the pixels during playback. If it's set to 1:1 (default), pixels are square. If it's set to any other ratio (i.e. 11:10) that means the pixels with be rectangular.

For example, let's say we have a NTSC DVD, ehanced for widescreen playback. The native resolution of the DVD is 720x480. However, the pixels aren't square. A pixel aspect ratio of approx 33:40 was used to squeeze the 16:9 frame into a 3:2 frame. So let's say you want to encode that video to WMV. Why resize anything at all? Encode it as 720x480 and set a 40:33 PAR on it. The image will expand right back to 872x480 at playback.

zambelli
30th November 2003, 12:38
Oh, in case of a PAL DVD, like in your example, you'd set PAR to 12:11 for a full screen DVD or to 16:11 for an enhanced widescreen DVD. Assuming you set your output size to 720x416, of course.

SeeMoreDigital
30th November 2003, 13:00
Originally posted by zambelli
Oh, in case of a PAL DVD, like in your example, you'd set PAR to 12:11 for a full screen DVD or to 16:11 for an enhanced widescreen DVD. Assuming you set your output size to 720x416, of course. There is another option you guys!

All my tests have shown that the WMV container supports AR flagging. So if you generate your encodes at 1:1 (ie 720x480 or 720x576). Provided you view them using the WM9 player, they will play back at the correct aspect ratio!

Cheers

Beastie Boy
30th November 2003, 21:22
With regards to the bitrate for 5.1 WMA files, I use VBR at quality 75. This gives excellent quality at around 260-300kbps depending on the source.

In theory, VBR would always beat a CBR file at a given file size. More bits are used where required.
Of course, the ideal solution would be the ability to mux ac3 tracks into a WMV file. :) zambelli?

Cheers, Beastie.

SeeMoreDigital
30th November 2003, 22:10
Originally posted by Beastie Boy
In theory, VBR would always beat a CBR file at a given file size. More bits are used where required.
Of course, the ideal solution would be the ability to mux ac3 tracks into a WMV file. :) zambelli?

Cheers, Beastie. Yea! Such a tool would be very handy, given it's so easy to mux WMV and WMA streams together!

Someone please oblige!

Cheers

Rash
30th November 2003, 23:28
I have a problem. The Average FPS is way below the Expected FPS. Is there a way to lock fps, like we do on XviD and DivX?

zambelli
1st December 2003, 11:32
Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
All my tests have shown that the WMV container supports AR flagging. So if you generate your encodes at 1:1 (ie 720x480 or 720x576). Provided you view them using the WM9 player, they will play back at the correct aspect ratio!


It is my understanding that any player using VMR-9 will also correctly play back AR flagged files.

zambelli
1st December 2003, 11:52
Originally posted by Rash
I have a problem. The Average FPS is way below the Expected FPS. Is there a way to lock fps, like we do on XviD and DivX?

I believe this is because WME drops duplicate frames. With ASF, unlike AVI, the perceived framerate can be different than the average framerate.

zambelli
1st December 2003, 12:18
Originally posted by Beastie Boy

Of course, the ideal solution would be the ability to mux ac3 tracks into a WMV file. :) zambelli?


I think this is theoretically possible. Years ago MS released two tools for converting AVIs and WAVs to ASF formats. Although the tools are no longer supported by MS (they were released with Netshow 2.0), you still might be able to find them online. Google for vidtoasf and wavtoasf, or vid2asf and wav2asf. The tools, as their names suggest, can take an AVI or WAV source and convert it to ASF - without recompressing the video or audio streams. Unbelievable as it might sound, a DivX/MP3 AVI will convert to an ASF without problems. WMP will play back the resulting ASF just fine (providing DivX decoder is installed, of course) and will even display both audio and video codec in the stream properties dialog.

So... theoretically... if you can store an AC3 stream inside an AVI or WAV, you should also be able to store it in an ASF too.

SeeMoreDigital
1st December 2003, 12:34
Originally posted by zambelli
It is my understanding that any player using VMR-9 will also correctly play back AR flagged files. Yep. I guess that's right now. I've just played pack a 720x576 anamorphic .WMV encode using MediaPlayer Classic 6.4.7.0 with no problems!
So I guess most people would be happy!

At least the WMV codec/container supports AR flagging. Putting it way ahead of other codec/container combinations!

Cheers

PS: If there's simple way to generate an 6Ch WMA stream from an 6Ch AC3 stream, I'm all for it!

zambelli
1st December 2003, 12:49
Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

PS: If there's simple way to generate an 6Ch WMA stream from an 6Ch AC3 stream, I'm all for it!

Well, that all depends on your definition of "simple". The easiest way is to decode .ac3 to 6 mono WAV files using BeSweet, and then encode the 6 WAV files to a 5.1 WMA using WME9.

TruckChase!
1st December 2003, 21:53
Why would you want to re-encode AC3 to WMA? Re-compressing already compressed audio is a no-no first of all, and there is nothing to gain. Any pc can decode ac3, as well as nearly any reciever made in the last 5 years. I don't know of one that can decode WMA.

Personally I encode the video to WMV9 and leave the audio untouched. I then wrap it all in a mkv container.

SeeMoreDigital
1st December 2003, 22:23
Originally posted by TruckChase!
Why would you want to re-encode AC3 to WMA? Re-compressing already compressed audio is a no-no first of all, and there is nothing to gain. Any pc can decode ac3, as well as nearly any reciever made in the last 5 years. I don't know of one that can decode WMA.

Personally I encode the video to WMV9 and leave the audio untouched. I then wrap it all in a mkv container. For me, it's just a 'megabyte' space saving exercise. A 6Ch WMA9 stream sounds pretty good at 128kbps.

And as long as everything stays within an WMV container I'm also able to playback the encodes using my Xcard, with JovePlayer front end and pump the 6Ch analog audio to my DSS amp.

Cheers

Rash
2nd December 2003, 02:21
Originally posted by zambelli
I believe this is because WME drops duplicate frames. With ASF, unlike AVI, the perceived framerate can be different than the average framerate.
Well, maybe. But the problem is that when I played the movie it was chopped, just like a game that it too heavy to run on your machine. I'm using WME default settings. And thank you for your reply. :)

bleo
2nd December 2003, 02:36
Er excuse my ignorance but how do you set the AR flag??

Just to show how quirky I am, I've been setting my pixel aspect ratio at 64:45 for anamorphic PAL sources...

McoreD
2nd December 2003, 06:15
Originally posted by TruckChase!
Why would you want to re-encode AC3 to WMA? Re-compressing already compressed audio is a no-no first of all, and there is nothing to gain. Any pc can decode ac3, as well as nearly any reciever made in the last 5 years. I don't know of one that can decode WMA.

Personally I encode the video to WMV9 and leave the audio untouched. I then wrap it all in a mkv container.

For me it is: I want to have it all Windows Media, thus I won't need to install an AC3 decoder. Everything will be played nicely in Windows Media Player 9. Secondly, like SeeMoreDigital, I am trying to save more space for video, so then I can encode the video at a higher bitrate.

zambelli mate, how about setting the Pixel Aspect Ratio: same as input? It didn't look bad for me. But not sure.

zambelli
2nd December 2003, 06:45
Originally posted by bleo
Er excuse my ignorance but how do you set the AR flag??

Just to show how quirky I am, I've been setting my pixel aspect ratio at 64:45 for anamorphic PAL sources...

The correct PAR for anamorphic PAL sources is actually 16:11. Even though CCIR-601 defines 720 pixels as the horizontal resolution, only 704 are used for the image. Thus most DVDs have 8 black pixels on each side of the image. I learned this myself very recently too.

You set PAR in WME9 by setting a custom Compression profile, checking "Allow non-square pixel output" and then going over to Video Size and selecting a PAR from the dropdown menu.

Beastie Boy
2nd December 2003, 08:47
Originally posted by Rash
Well, maybe. But the problem is that when I played the movie it was chopped, just like a game that it too heavy to run on your machine. I'm using WME default settings. And thank you for your reply. :)
Are you using '2 Pass VBR Peak' or plain '2 Pass VBR'?
There is a problem with '2 Pass VBR Peak' in that if the Peak setting is reached, frames are duplicated. This then gives the appearance that the video is stuttering on playback. Stick to '2 Pass VBR' and all should be well.

Cheers, Beastie.

nFury8
2nd December 2003, 09:06
originally posted by zambelli
Sorry, I think my previous PAR example might've confused you. Let me start again.

PAR is Pixel Aspect Ratio, not Picture Aspect Ratio. It determines the shape of the pixels during playback. If it's set to 1:1 (default), pixels are square. If it's set to any other ratio (i.e. 11:10) that means the pixels with be rectangular.

For example, let's say we have a NTSC DVD, ehanced for widescreen playback. The native resolution of the DVD is 720x480. However, the pixels aren't square. A pixel aspect ratio of approx 33:40 was used to squeeze the 16:9 frame into a 3:2 frame. So let's say you want to encode that video to WMV. Why resize anything at all? Encode it as 720x480 and set a 40:33 PAR on it. The image will expand right back to 872x480 at playback.

Please let me barge in on this PAR thing here, I am currently doing my wmv9 encodes via avisynth thru wme9 by cropping away the black bars without resizing. I just let zoomplayer resize to the correct aspect ratio of my input. So what you're saying is encode the source with the black bars without cropping them? The reason why people here crop the black bars is to save bitrate which I believe you know anyway. But your method sounds intriguing to me, I might want to try it one of these days.

regards

Beastie Boy
2nd December 2003, 09:51
nFury8, no sorry, that's not right.
Crop in Avisynth as you normally would, but don't apply any resizing.
Then when applying your bitrate settings, check the box that says 'Allow non-square pixels'.
Back on the main settings area, there is a tab headed 'Video size' (or something similar, sorry I'm at work at the moment and can't check). In here you can select Custom AR and enter a ratio eg 40:33.
Beware that this is relative to the input AR so check the info panel to the right in order to see what the output AR will be.
Then encode as normal.

When the file is played back in WMP9 or other player using VMR-9, the AR that you set will be read and the file will play back 'stretched' to the correct shape.

Cheers, Beastie.

nFury8
2nd December 2003, 11:06
Thanks mate.
But how do you come up with these ratio figures like 40:33? And what if the DVD source says the movie is maintained in a certain theatrical aspect ratio like 2.35 or 1.85? How do I go around setting the PAR in wme9? I've been reading the aspect ratio guides here in the forum for an eternity and everytime I read it it just fries my brain cells. Man, I really suck at math. :D And what is VMR-9?

Beastie Boy
2nd December 2003, 11:34
The aspect ratio figures are a way of describing how long one side of the video is in relation to the other.
Using 40:33 as an example, if the horizontal resolution was 40 pixels, then the vertical resolution would be 33 pixels. Or it could be any other multiple eg, 80x66, 120x99 etc.
A 1.85 ratio movie is also sometimes called a 16:9 movie, for every 16 pixels you have across, you have 9 up. And 16/9=1.78, which is close to 1.85 :confused:

In order to determine the AR of your movie, crop as required in GKnot and select the 16:9 radio button. GKnot will then tell you the resized AR of your movie which could be something like 2.45:1.
Now when you enter your AR in WME, aim for this value in the info window to the right of the figures. Trial and error is one method to obtain the correct value, only integers are allowed.

I think VMR-9 is a video renderer, it can be selected in the options of Media Player Classic if the file doesn't play correctly by default.

Cheers, Beastie.

SeeMoreDigital
2nd December 2003, 18:24
Originally posted by Beastie Boy
..A 1.85 ratio movie is also sometimes called a 16:9 movie, for every 16 pixels you have across, you have 9 up. And 16/9=1.78, which is close to 1.85 :confused: 16:9 is 1.77:1. And is shown as 1.78:1 more often than not!

There have been very few movies released using this aspect ratio. In fact the only one I have (it's the kids really) is Toy Story 2.

Any 1.77:1 image on an anamorphic DVD will occupy all 720x576 pixels, for PAL. Or all 720x480 pixels, for NTSC.

A 1.85:1 image on anamorphic DVD actually occupies 720x554 pixels for PAL. Or 720x462 pixels, for NTSC. The remaining pixels are black matte!

Cheers

zambelli
3rd December 2003, 02:13
The thing to keep in mind is that WME9 always deals with pixel aspect ratios and never with picture aspect ratios. There are two things you need to know to calculate the pixel aspect ratio that needs to be set on a video: 1) your source video resolution, 2) the resolution that you want your video to be played back at.

The source video resolution is easy to figure out. If you're sourcing from DVD, it's 720x480 (NTSC) or 720x576 (PAL). Now, as for the playback resolution, how do you figure that out? It's quite easy, actually. If your DVD is a fullscreen DVD (aka not widescreen enhanced), then its playback resolution is 640x480 or 768x576. If it is widescreen enhanced, then your playback resolution is 853x640 or 1024x576. So, as you can see, even when it's stored on a DVD the video is using non-square pixels in order to make DVD players easier to implement and to make our lives more miserable.

Another thing you must keep in mind is that out of 720 horizontal pixels usually only 704 are used. So most of the time you'll actually be dealing with 704x480 and 704x576 on a DVD.

Finally, how do you figure out the pixel aspect ratio? Well, if your source is a widescreen enhanced PAL DVD (704x576) that needs to play back as 1024x576, then divide 1024 by 704 and you'll get 1.45454545. That just happens to be the same as 16:11. That's your PAR. What if you're cropping to remove black bars though? Well, nothing. Cropping does not affect the pixel aspect ratio. You can crop the source to 704x512 if the film transfer so requires, but your PAR will still be 16:11.

nFury8
3rd December 2003, 02:32
@Beastie Boy
Appreciate your input bro. Although I already understand the basic concept of aspect ratios (eg 16:9 or 4:3), the thing that got me stumped was how figures like 40:33, 80:66, or 120:99 as you mentioned for example, was derived in relation to 16:9 or anamorphic ratio. I mean its easy and simple to relate to 16:9 or 4:3 as the ratio of the width to the height. Okay for example I have a dvd that says it was encoded to maintain the theatrical aspect ratio of 1.85:1. I then go to Gordian Knot and do all the black bar cropping and take note of my AR. When it comes to encoding in wme9, keeping in mind there's no resizing, the PAR values I need to input would be in the form of eg. 40:33 and not 1.85:1 or something since only integers are allowed. So the gist of all my bitching about PAR would be, how do I derive figures like 40:33, or 80:66 if the aspect ratio given in gknot is in the form of 1.85:1 or 1.77:1 etc? Dear Lord, I hope I'm not making a jerk out of myself with all this. Cause I have a feeling it's very simple for everybody except me? :D

[edit]
zambelli posted his reply about the topic while I was typing this post. Thx for his additional clarification on PAR.

ookzDVD
3rd December 2003, 03:53
I still have playback problem,
I saw flicker white lines in the right border :(

Anyone know how it could be fixed ?

Thank you.

Beastie Boy
3rd December 2003, 08:52
@nFury8,
I understand your problem, I couldn't think of a way to calculate it either. To try and help, I used an Excel spreadsheet which I shall try and upload later.
Basically, it has numbers 1 to 99 in one column, those numbers multiplied by your desired AR in an adjacent column, and a third column with the aspect ratio error that each combination gives.
You then sort the list in order of aspect ratio error and choose the one with the least error that uses integer values.
It is very basic and I'm feel embarrased to share it, but it may help you :o

@ookzDVD,
that is a strange problem and not one that I have seen. I presume that the frame size is not odd sized, ie it is multiples of 16 pixels. Has this happened on more than one occasion? Have you tried opening the file in Graphedit to see if the problem is still there?

Cheers, Beastie.

SeeMoreDigital
3rd December 2003, 12:10
Originally posted by Beastie Boy
@nFury8,
I understand your problem, I couldn't think of a way to calculate it either. To try and help, I used an Excel spreadsheet which I shall try and upload later.
Basically, it has numbers 1 to 99 in one column, those numbers multiplied by your desired AR in an adjacent column, and a third column with the aspect ratio error that each combination gives.
You then sort the list in order of aspect ratio error and choose the one with the least error that uses integer values.
It is very basic and I'm feel embarrased to share it, but it may help you :o Personally I've found that because the WMV codec/container supports AR flagging, there's not much point in generating cropped/resized encodes from DVD sources!

Also, I have found that WMV9 does not appear to allocate many bits when encoding with the black mattes.

So Unless you are intending to generate serious cropped and resized encodes (say 640x272 encodes from an 720x480/576 DVD source), you don't loose many MB or see a vast quality improvement by not keeping them in!

Anyway, that's my experience. Cheers

nFury8
3rd December 2003, 12:38
@Beastie Boy
I always appreciate your extra effort man. No need to feel embarassed about the effort you put into helping a retard like me :D.

originally posted by zambelli
What if you're cropping to remove black bars though? Well, nothing. Cropping does not affect the pixel aspect ratio. You can crop the source to 704x512 if the film transfer so requires, but your PAR will still be 16:11.
Now THAT is something interesting to me.

@SeeMore
From your experience, how did you find out that there's not much bit allocation difference between cropping the black bars and just keeping them? By actually comparing encodes of each method? Thx.

[edit]
Wait a minute, I just noticed zambelli's avatar and sig, is this guy from M$?

SeeMoreDigital
3rd December 2003, 13:05
Originally posted by nFury8
@SeeMore
From your experience, how did you find out that there's not much bit allocation difference between cropping the black bars and just keeping them? By actually comparing encodes of each method? Thx. I used the 2.35:1 anamorphic widescreen PAL version of Star Wars 2 (137min) as a source and generated 2 encodes from it.

One at 'full' 720x576 and the other 'cropped' at 720x432. Both were encoded using 2passes using an video bitrate of 615kbps and an audio bitrate of 64kbps. In the end there was only a couple of MB difference between them! EDIT: And no visible difference either!

Originally posted by nFury8
[edit]
Wait a minute, I just noticed zambelli's avatar and sig, is this guy from M$? Yep, looks like we lost MingCL but gained zambelli! Always good to have a representative from each of the codec manufacturer on the forum.

I just hope zambelli stays around a while!

Cheers

zambelli
3rd December 2003, 23:59
Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

One at 'full' 720x576 and the other 'cropped' at 720x432. Both were encoded using 2passes using an video bitrate of 615kbps and an audio bitrate of 64kbps. In the end there was only a couple of MB difference between them!


You used 2-pass VBR encoding. File size will always be similar with average VBR encoding. 615kbps is 615kbps is 615kbps.
I would suggest always cropping off black bars when you can, otherwise you risk wasting bitrate. Sure, it might not be much, but I'd like to think that every bit counts.



Yep, looks like we lost MingCL but gained zambelli! Always good to have a representative from each of the codec manufacturer on the forum.


I'm glad I can help. Please keep in mind though that I primarily work on the Player side of Windows Media. As far as the Encoder is concerned, I'm just a power user like many others on this forum. :)



I just hope zambelli stays around a while!



I'll do my best. It all depends on my schedule and workload. If you ever need to get my attention, just send me a private msg and I believe Doom9 will alert me via e-mail.

SeeMoreDigital
4th December 2003, 00:15
Originally posted by zambelli
You used 2-pass VBR encoding. File size will always be similar with average VBR encoding. 615kbps is 615kbps is 615kbps.
I would suggest always cropping off black bars when you can, otherwise you risk wasting bitrate. Sure, it might not be much, but I'd like to think that every bit counts. Yes. I forgot to add that there was no noticable 'visual' difference between the two encodes either!

I've ammended the post to suit.

Sorry again for the confusion. Cheers

bleo
4th December 2003, 05:14
Even though I don't have any hard figures, I think it's slower to encode with the black mattes in (because of the extra area for motion vector searching?...)

Anyway, I am also of the mentality that every bit counts! :D

SeeMoreDigital
4th December 2003, 13:49
Originally posted by bleo
Even though I don't have any hard figures, I think it's slower to encode with the black mattes in (because of the extra area for motion vector searching?...)

Anyway, I am also of the mentality that every bit counts! :D If I remember correctly, there was no difference between the two in encoding time.

As I mentioned before though, much depends on how you want to generate your finished encode. Personally I like to generate all my encodes, (with any codec) anamorphicly.

So most of the time I leave them at the same image pixel frame size as the source (ie 720x480/576). Sometimes I just crop the mattes away.

For those who like to do the latter. Maybe zambelli could be kind enough to list the figures WME9 needs for the following anamorphic DVD aspect ratios: -

NTSC 1.85:1
NTSC 2.35:1
NTSC 2.40:1

PAL 1.85:1
PAL 2.35:1
PAL 2.40:1

Cheers

zambelli
5th December 2003, 05:05
Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

For those who like to do the latter. Maybe zambelli could be kind enough to list the figures WME9 needs for the following anamorphic DVD aspect ratios: -


The correct pixel aspect ratios for DV sources, both standard and anamorphic, are listed in the dropdown menu of the Pixel Aspect Ratio option in WME9.

The pixel aspect ratio for all anamorphic widescreen NTSC DVDs is 40:33, regardless of the aspect ratio of the film print transfer. The pixel aspect ratio (PAR) isn't being used to compensate for the difference between film transfer aspect ratio and display aspect ratio. No, no, no. The PAR is used to compensate for the difference between the DVD resolution (704x480) and the playback resolution (853x480).

NTSC 1.85:1 PAR 40:33
NTSC 2.35:1 PAR 40:33
NTSC 2.40:1 PAR 40:33

Similarly, PAR 16:11 is valid for all anamorphic widescreen PAL DVDs because it's compensating for the difference between DVD resolution (704x576) and playback resolution (1024x576).

PAL 1.85:1 PAR 16:11
PAL 2.35:1 PAR 16:11
PAL 2.40:1 PAR 16:11

You can crop all you want AFTER you have calculated the PAR numbers because at that point your ratio is fixed and chopping off parts of the frame won't change the geometric shape of the images on screen.

nFury8
5th December 2003, 05:48
originally posted by zambelli
The pixel aspect ratio for all anamorphic widescreen NTSC DVDs is 40:33, regardless of the aspect ratio of the film print transfer.
Thanks for clarifying this. This should dispel any confusion on my part about the relationship of the film aspect ratio indicated on dvd labels and the process of encoding it into WME9 using PAR flagging. Looks like I'll use this option in wme9 from here on, although I will still crop those black bars away.

SeeMoreDigital
5th December 2003, 12:46
Yes thanks for answering that question!

I'm glad to see that WME9 fans are not generating 'seriously' cropped and resized encodes and are finding that excellent results can be obtained by either generating 1:1 encodes or just cropping away the mattes!

Despite many claims by the 'codec competition', I've found WMV9 to be still superior when generating low bitrate 1:1 anamorphic encodes!

Now, I would like to change the subject a little and ask an audio question.

Is there any possibility of WME9 allowing the import of multichannel wav files.

I have a few 6Ch (and even 8Ch) wavs - some of them downloaded from Microsoft's very web site. It would be great if such files could be loaded into WME9 and WMA files came out!

Cheers

nFury8
5th December 2003, 13:31
@SeeMore
Are you kidding me? That's what I've been doing all along. Generate 6 waves using besweet either from an AC3 or DTS source, then feeding that into wme9, configuring the audio source as multichannel wav from the source drop-down menu. And after configuring your encode settings, out goes your wma9 audio. Try it. :)

SeeMoreDigital
5th December 2003, 13:48
Originally posted by nFury8
@SeeMore
Are you kidding me? That's what I've been doing all along. Generate 6 waves using besweet either from an AC3 or DTS source, then feeding that into wme9, configuring the audio source as multichannel wav from the source drop-down menu. And after configuring your encode settings, out goes your wma9 audio. Try it. :) Ahh yes,

But are you generating 6No individual 1Ch (mono) WAV's with BeSweet or 1No 6Ch WAV? Being able to import 6Ch or even 8Ch WAV's would be a bonus.

I've been feeding WME9 with 6No individual 1Ch (mono) WAV's ever since WME9 came out. Including using Microsoft's 'Stream Editor' to mux and demux the audio and video streams.... Which is great fun and easy to use!

Cheers

bleo
5th December 2003, 15:16
Windows Media Encoder only accepts multichannel WAV files with a WaveFormatExtensible header. Perhaps someone can suggest a program that writes these headers, or if you're handy with a hex editor you can alter the header yourself by changing:
- riffSIZE at position 4, add 0x16 to the DWORD here (note little-endian byte order)
- fmtSIZE at 10 from 12 to 28
- wFormatTag at 14 from 01 00 to FE FF
- cbSize at 24 from 00 to 16
- insert at 26, 10 00 3F 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 10 00 80 00 00 AA 00 38 9B 71

Did I scare you off? :p

nFury8
5th December 2003, 15:26
originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Ahh yes,

But are you generating 6No individual 1Ch (mono) WAV's with BeSweet or 1No 6Ch WAV? Being able to import 6Ch or even 8Ch WAV's would be a bonus.
You're right, 6 numbers of individual mono wav's. I see what you're getting at. Anyway, regarding the stream editor, is there a way to append wmv files that are split into several CD's and join them all into one?

SeeMoreDigital
5th December 2003, 16:00
Originally posted by nFury8
...Anyway, regarding the stream editor, is there a way to append wmv files that are split into several CD's and join them all into one? I've not looked into doing this. But I don't think so... Would be nice though!

Cheers


EDIT: Spelling!

SeeMoreDigital
5th December 2003, 17:46
Originally posted by bleo
Windows Media Encoder only accepts multichannel WAV files with a WaveFormatExtensible header. Perhaps someone can suggest a program that writes these headers, or if you're handy with a hex editor you can alter the header yourself by changing:
- riffSIZE at position 4, add 0x16 to the DWORD here (note little-endian byte order)
- fmtSIZE at 10 from 12 to 28
- wFormatTag at 14 from 01 00 to FE FF
- cbSize at 24 from 00 to 16
- insert at 26, 10 00 3F 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 10 00 80 00 00 AA 00 38 9B 71

Did I scare you off? :p Eeer, yes!

Me like simple things. Coz me is simple!

zambelli
6th December 2003, 00:55
Originally posted by nFury8
originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

Anyway, regarding the stream editor, is there a way to append wmv files that are split into several CD's and join them all into one?

There's a 3rd party tool called ASFTools which claims to do just that. I haven't tried it with WMV9 files, but I can't see a reason why it shouldn't work.

http://www.geocities.com/myasftools/

McoreD
14th December 2003, 12:41
Hi,

After my testing with DivX and MPEG4 compression to one CD so far, I am impressed with 2-pass WMV9. One good feature in both DivX and MPEG4 encoding is that you have the option of loading subtitiles to the rip. I am asking if it is possible in WMV9? So then we can include those steps to this awesome guide. Thanks. :)

McoreD

zambelli
17th December 2003, 03:23
There are several ways to add subtitles to ASF files. If you're using WMP to play back the content, the simplest way is to convert your subtitle source to SAMI format, a standard Microsoft format for captions. Name the .smi file the same as your video file (i.e. if MyVideo.wmv, then MyVideo.smi) and WMP will automatically identify the SAMI source and display the subtitles (make sure Play -> Captions & Subtitles in WMP is enabled first). The other method is to embed subtitles into the ASF (WMV) file as CAPTION type script commands. Then it's up to the player to recognize script command events and display the subtitles.
More info about adding script commands to ASF: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnwmt/html/wmp7_sami.asp

McoreD
26th December 2003, 17:12
Thank you zambelli, :)

Currently I am trying extract subtitles from SubRip and then convert to SAMI files.

Everything is going well for this DVD to WMV9 Guide.

As you may be aware a WM9 Bitrate Calculator (http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Other-VIDEO-Tools/WM9-Bitrate-Calculator.shtml) is available now supporting calculations for more than 384Kbps, and an AviSynth 2.5 Script Generator (http://microsoftusernetwork.com/mcored/downloads/dvd2wmvtools.zip) is out there to create *.avs we need in this guide.

Cheers,
McoreD

Edit: I think my ISP has disabled downloading files without their name as the referrer or something. If you get an error when downloading the files, please go to the index.html (http://microsoftusernetwork.com/mcored/) here (http://microsoftusernetwork.com/mcored/downloads/).

Bulma
29th December 2003, 15:59
Wow, this thread is still alive...

Anyway, for those who need very simple encoding (if I recall correctly, center speaker don`t work with this method, and won`t work good if there is a delay in audio/video), check this:
http://www.microsoftusernetwork.com/zarax/dvd_index.htm

Assault
29th December 2003, 16:25
@ zambelli

Oh, in case of a PAL DVD, like in your example, you'd set PAR to 12:11 for a full screen DVD or to 16:11 for an enhanced widescreen DVD.

Is it right that a PAL 16/9 anamorphic DVD is resized during playback from 720x576 to 1024x576? That would mean that the PAL 16/9 PAR is 1024/720=64/45=1,42222222. But you say that the PAR is 16/11=1,45454545. Is there any reason for that small difference? Or is 16/11 only an approximation and 64/45 is actual right?

Assault

McoreD
30th December 2003, 00:50
It's GREAT to hear from you again Bulma! :)
Thanks for the new link. I will consider it as the DVD to WMV Guide v3.0.

This was how (http://mcoredbetaone.tripod.com/files/DVD-to-WMV9-with-WMA9Pro5.1-Guide-v2.5.pdf) your DVD to WMV Guide v2.0 evolved so far.

Have you still got your DVD to WMV Guide v1.0 by any chance? If you can email it to me, it would be greatly appreciated. :)

Edit: Email address is mcored@iinet.net.au

Thank you again,
McoreD

Wilbert
30th December 2003, 01:15
I like the three main advantages of encoding to wmv, as given in the tutorial:


There are three key advantages in using Windows Media for your DVD back-ups:

1) Standard format and codecs
2) Superior audio and video quality
3) Higher portability potential


I'm sure that many people will agree with this :)

Doom9
30th December 2003, 02:25
I'm sure that many people will agree with this I think you forgot the blinking smilie because you can't say that to my face without blushing. According to the tests at HA, AAC is pretty much THE codec to go for in the audio business, you'll be able to read about video codecs at my site again very soon (and one thing I can say for certain there are better video codecs than WMV9) and if you consider what MS makes as a standard, well, I can't really say anything about that except that standards aren't made that way.

Sorry, I didn't mean to rain on anybody's parade and I think it's great what you're doing here since there's apparently a demand for it but those claims scream for a counterargument.

Bulma
30th December 2003, 14:45
Originally posted by McoreD
It's GREAT to hear from you again Bulma! :)
Thanks for the new link. I will consider it as the DVD to WMV Guide v3.0.

Well this link should be more like Guide v0.9 as i don`t think it works well with 5.1 :)
But, you could add link in Guide v2.0, for those who needs something much simpler...
BTW: Guide v2.0 looks very nice...

Doom9, Wilbert.
I have nothing to do with that tutorial, I only provided a link. Yes, typical bullshit like all companies do (see RM, Divx webs) But i would agree to some extent with points:
3) Higher portability potential or 1) Standard format and codecs (not sure which fit better)...
Why?
About 95% of people I know have Windows. You can run WMV on them without installing any addition codecs (even if they don`t have e.g. WMV9, it will download/install automaticaly from Internet (yeah, they have to have connection to Internet, but... :devil: )
On the other hand, codecs like RM, AC3... well, very few people acually have them.. some of them don`t even know they exists (even people that have some computer skils don`t know that they need AC3 codec)... Divx is somewhat better, but still not everyone have it (and from tests I saw, it`s no better than WMV9 anyway), and has no audio support at all...

And I remembered one story a few years ago, two frends taking to each other:
F1: - Hey, did you saw a movie a gave you
F2: - No, I couldn`t run it
F1: - Do you have a Divx codec?
F2: - Yes, I have Divx 5.01
F1: - Well, I encoded it with Divx 5.02

True story, no shit, really :)
I didn`t use Divx for some time, but I hope they don`t do shit like that with Divx versions any more...

McoreD
30th December 2003, 15:47
Originally posted by Bulma
And I remembered one story a few years ago, two frends taking to each other:
F1: - Hey, did you saw a movie a gave you
F2: - No, I couldn`t run it
F1: - Do you have a Divx codec?
F2: - Yes, I have Divx 5.01
F1: - Well, I encoded it with Divx 5.02

True story, no shit, really :)
I didn`t use Divx for some time, but I hope they don`t do shit like that with Divx versions any more...

LMFAO very true. :D

This happened to me with my cousin last year.

He: How was the movie?
I: I couldn't watch it.
He: I told you to install all the codecs!
I: Yes I have installed DivX and XviD - everything!
He: Have you installed 3ivX?

To add more I have to say:
While managing to have 5.1 Multichannel audio and still maintain the size of the movie to one CD, and yet preserve the most of the quality of the DVD, there is no other format yet than Window Medua Audio/Video 9.

Edit: Yes Bulma, after reading that review (which I said v3.0) did not include Windows Media 9 Professional as for the example. On top of that, they even said Windows Media Video 9 is not recommeded to use unless you have a Pentium 4 or similar. Looks like I will have to sit back and try editing it again, to make it more useful for me.

One thing I learnt new in that guide was, using Smart Ripper to create 1 VOB file of the whole DVD. This surely makes the life much more easier.

Edit2: @Bulma, sorry I just realised I have misread your previous post.
You said: Anyway, for those who need very simple encoding (if I recall correctly, center speaker don`t work with this method, and won`t work good if there is a delay in audio/video), check this:
I thought the center speaker was not working properly for the Guide v2.0 and you linked us with a 'better' guide in microsoftusernetworks.com. So the Guide v2.0 still rocks! Phew! I was worried. :)

bond
30th December 2003, 16:42
this needs an answer from my side :D

Originally posted by Bulma
3) Higher portability potentialhm i very much doubt that as i write below

1) Standard format and codecs (not sure which fit better)i wouldnt call codecs, provided only by one company, a standard, such formats are unique implementations of coding technolgies but nothing like a standard, which other provides could follow
a standard gets a standard because everyone who wants to develop a codec compliant to the standard can do so

About 95% of people I know have Windows. You can run WMV on them without installing any addition codecs (even if they don`t have e.g. WMV9, it will download/install automaticaly from Internet (yeah, they have to have connection to Internet, but... :devil: )well what about people who dont use the imho crappy wmp, i for example use bsplayer? afaik there isnt any automatically download of m$ codecs in non-m$ products...
and if i know m$ policies right, i am pretty sure that they would never allow to add divx5 (or any other mpeg-4 codec) to their automatically codec download system, which would be perfectly possible...

On the other hand, codecs like RM, AC3... well, very few people acually have them.
Divx is somewhat better, but still not everyone have itwell, tough i use windows i also couldnt play all wmv files, i had to go the m$ homepage, download the wm9 codecs and install them to do so...
i dont see why there is a difference to if someone downloads divx5 for example

some of them don`t even know they exists (even people that have some computer skils don`t know that they need AC3 codec)well i am pretty sure there are also people who dont know anything about m$'s codecs (i guess these are even more than compared to the ones who dont know divx5 or xvid)...

2) Superior audio and video quality
and from tests I saw, it`s no better than WMV9 anywayi hope you dont mean the comparisons on microsoft.com ;)
its always the best to do its own comparisons (use the tool avscompare for that, its great!)
my tests (and as i remember also doom9's latest comparison) showed that wmv9 has little less details than divx5, and no chance against xvid (also on 1cd bitrates as i only make such encodes)

and has no audio support at allwell, video codecs, like divx5 and xvid are, have nothing directly to do with audio codecs ;)
read more about mpeg-4 audio below

And I remembered one story a few years ago, two frends taking to each other:
F1: - Hey, did you saw a movie a gave you
F2: - No, I couldn`t run it
F1: - Do you have a Divx codec?
F2: - Yes, I have Divx 5.01
F1: - Well, I encoded it with Divx 5.02

True story, no shit, really :)
I didn`t use Divx for some time, but I hope they don`t do shit like that with Divx versions any more...hm, so in your opinion it would have been better if divx would have done it like microsoft:
not to do bugfixes, like divx5, and release x.01 versions, but always release "new codecs", like wmv9 :D

damn, in that case i guess we would have already divx9: "woaw, great, already the ninth version! must be a great codec!" :p

While managing to have 5.1 Multichannel audio and still maintain the size of the movie to one CD, and yet preserve the most of the quality of the DVD, there is no other format yet than Window Medua Audio/Video 9.thats wrong, the mpeg-4 standard (and exisiting implementations) gives you everything you need:

with aac you can produce also multichannel audio (and it was judged better on low bitrates than wma9 in the independant (!) listening test conducted by rjamorim)

regarding video, i already wrote that the mpeg-4 video codec xvid produced in my tests (and i am not alone i guess) better quality than wmv9 on 1cd bitrates (thats why in my opinion xvid is a better codec than wmv9)

Originally posted by McoreD
He: How was the movie?
I: I couldn't watch it.
He: I told you to install all the codecs!
I: Yes I have installed DivX and XviD - everything!
He: Have you installed 3ivX?guys, if you want a real standard, go with mpeg-4!

mpeg-4 offers everything that wm9 series offers (well even more like dvd menus, user interactivity...), and with imho better quality and its an openstandard, which means that everyone can make its own mpeg-4 compliant implementations (and xvid, divx, 3ivx, nero digital are mpeg-4 implementations, which means you have the possiblity to choose (!), which codec you want to use for your rips and still stay spec complaint to the standard)
its not like with m$'s codecs that only one company owns the codecs and controls the implementation (on pc, standalones or whereever). with mpeg-4 no company has a monopoly on the implementations, and if you are studying business perhaps you know what it means if a company has a monopoly position in a market (i guess billy boy wouldnt have anything against achieving such a position in the video market. i guess thats why m$ stopped developing their mpeg-4 codec...)

a first automated fully compliant fully integrated audio and video implementation of the mpeg-4 standard is provided by ahead, with their nero recode2 tool: with this tool you can output with no hassle .mp4 files, with mutlichannel audio if you like aso...
and the quality doesnt needs to hide itself compared to the codecs m$ provides (not to talk about the speed difference compared to slow wmv9)

regarding other mpeg-4 implementations (like xvid, divx5, faac aso), they only provide parts of the mpeg-4 standard (ie an audio or an video codec) but there are already tools (like the ones provided by 3ivx) which let you combine these parts to fully mpeg-4 complaint .mp4 files


huh pretty long answer :D
but to sum it up: as long as m$ doesnt clearly provide better quality than exisiting mpeg-4 implementations, i wouldnt even consider thinking about supporting m$ codecs just a little bit (not to speak about their business policies, we all know and love)...

McoreD
30th December 2003, 17:09
Originally posted by bond
a first automated fully compliant fully integrated audio and video implementation of the mpeg-4 standard is provided by ahead, with their nero recode2 tool: with this tool you can output with no hassle .mp4 files, with mutlichannel audio if you like aso...
and the quality doesnt needs to hide itself compared to the codecs m$ provides (not to talk about the speed difference compared to slow wmv9)

I respect all your points. :)

However, you missed one point bro. Ahead do not offer that Nero Recode for free do they? Other encoding programs: Windows Media Encoder, AutoGK, and many other programs we discussed here, are all freeware; the fully functionality is offered without paying a cent. Of course you are greatly appreciated if you can donate and help the developer for his valuable time and effort.

All the points you have mentioned are correct and have a valid reasoning and I do agree with you. :)

Before this Guide turns out to a arguing thread, I will call...

...Peace,
McoreD.

bond
30th December 2003, 17:27
Originally posted by McoreD
However, you missed one point bro. Ahead do not offer that Nero Recode for free do they? Other encoding programs: Windows Media Encoder, AutoGK, and many other programs we discussed here, are all freeware; the fully functionality is offered without paying a cent.as i wrote recode2 is not the only tool, which lets you create .mp4 files, its just the easiest to use i guess.
for example 3ivx also offers a fully featured mpeg-4 implementation, which outputs the same mpeg-4 spec compliant files as recode2 does, and its available for free!
and not to forget about all the free opensource mpeg-4 implementations out there!

and not to forget you can also choose what decoder you want to use (ie the decoders from divx5, 3ivx, ahead, ffdshow, coreaac, etc... only xvid doesnt handle it atm afaik)

all-in-all getting the possiblity to choose from many implementations is only one of the reasons why the mpeg-4 standard is superior compared to the stuff m$ offers imo...

All the points you have mentioned are correct and have a valid reasoning and I do agree with you.thanks :D

McoreD
9th January 2004, 15:12
Hi there,

I was using this AviSynth Script for encoding in a Pentium 4:
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\MPEG2Dec3dg.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\DVD_VIDEO\VIDEO_TS\national-security.d2v",idct=5).Crop(0,8,-0,-8)

And it took 15 hours and 46 minutes to encode 1 hour and 24 minutes of video!
Content duration: 00:01:24:44 (dd:hh:mm:ss)
Session duration: 00:15:46:47 (dd:hh:mm:ss)

Session:
Bytes encoded (total): 694.85 MB
Bit rate (expected): 1128 Kbps
Bit rate (average): 1146.87 Kbps

I have heard that some DVDs are hard to compress and it takes longer than most of the other DVDs. Is this true?
This is the second time it happened. All my other DVDs encoded under 7 hours.

I used Deinterlacing in WME. In DVD2AVI it said the video was Interlaced. That is the reason why I deinterlaced. But later, when checking the same movie in Nero Recode, it said the video is progressive and no needed to deinterlace. :confused:

I encoded the movie at 720 * 560 resolution. If I was to resize the movie, and I decide the width should be 576, am I right if I calculated height as 496?
I followed Doom9's Resolution guide here:
http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/bitrate_guide.htm

There were several suggested resolutions listed.
So I made this small tool Movie Resolution Calculator (http://members.iinet.net.au/~malith/files/MovResCalc.exe) according to those information.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~malith/images/07-enc14.jpg

@zambelli,
Thanks heaps for the information about the SAMI files. I successfully used SubRip, made a *.srt file and then converted it to a *.smi file using subconv.

SeeMoreDigital
9th January 2004, 15:57
Hi McoreD,

Don't panic...

Your encoding speeds closely matches my own test results for 720x576 anamorphic encodes. Especially if the 'performance slider' is set to max!

Cropping the mattes away, which I presume you have done, does not improve the speed all that much, if at all!

Cheers

McoreD
10th January 2004, 00:13
Hi SeeMoreDigital,

Thanks for your reply. I was extremely worried with the speed. I had put force SSE2 in the AviSynth script as well. Plus the encoding was done in P4 3GHz.

The encoding speed I got for WMV8 (with same settings as above) was amazing! The same movie as I said above. Check this speed!

Content duration: 00:01:24:44 (dd:hh:mm:ss)
Session duration: 00:02:45:20 (dd:hh:mm:ss)

Movie:00:01:24:44 (dd:hh:mm:ss)
Encoding time with WMV9: 00:15:46:47 (dd:hh:mm:ss)
Encoding time with WMV8: 00:02:45:20 (dd:hh:mm:ss)

The quality for the WMV8 was not bad for what it did in 2:45:20 hours.

McoreD

momentum
3rd March 2004, 09:24
could you anyone tell me how to convert vob or no compressed avi file into avi with wmv9 codec on VDM?

1. If I convert into wmv9 on WMV encoder, the quality is excellent whatever I choose as an encoding option, usually 2mb vbr peak.

2. I dont like wmv as the final output file format. Tha is why I want to use VDM rather than WMV encoder.

3. When I use VDM, it is too confusing how to set up encoding option for 2 pass encoding, could you anyone let me know the step by step manual for doing this?

Thanks

PS: I serached all the thread if there was any similar question and answer on this regard, none, so posting here .

Sagittaire
3rd March 2004, 14:13
Matroska is a good solution for WM9 codec ...

http://jfl1974.free.fr/Video/LOTRII-WMVHD.rar

- WMV9 1280*528 ~ 2500 Kbps for average bitrate
- WMA9 Pro 5.1 ~ 192 Kbps for average bitrate french & english
- SRT subtitles french & english

damrod
3rd March 2004, 14:29
one question : wmv9 via vdub in avi
but wma9??

can mkvmerge handle that?

Sagittaire
3rd March 2004, 14:45
mmg is not compatible with WMA9: mux with graphedit. But the edition of WMV9/WMA9/MKV is possible with VirtualDubMod ...

damrod
3rd March 2004, 14:50
vdubmod handle wma9 file ?? (.wma?)

Sagittaire
3rd March 2004, 15:04
Mux of WMA9 with VDM is impossible but VDM can open and edit WMV9/WMA9/SRT/MKV file ...