Why SO many DVD-R over DVD+R?

[windtrader]

I am buying a dvd recorder soon and am trying to assess the current state of personal PC based DVD recording. Based on what I read in this forum, the Pioneers are by far the most mentioned and it is not clear why.

Does this mean they:
are the drives most members and/or general public use?
are the drives with the most problems and complications?
use DVD-R media that is cheaper than DVD+R?
produce less coasters than DVD+ media?
have been around the longest?
will lose their dominance as cheaper DVD+ media comes online?
are more compatible in STBs than DVD+?
will remain viable for the next couple years or fall to DVD +?

I hope these questions provoke a discussion that develops a clear picture of the current state of the DVD recording scene.

Thanks

[Doom9]

I would bet my money on option 3, currently cheap DVD-R discs are more available than DVD+R. It's difficult to make any long range projections though.

Price is definitely related to DVD-R being around longer, the amount of faulty discs has nothing to do with the technology (thought atm thanks to cheap and shitty DVD-Rs people using DVD-R often produce more coasters than DVD+R owners). As for compatibility, it's about equal with DVD+R having slight advantages from a technical point (its reflection is closer to a DVD-9 than DVD-R/W's reflection thus theoretically it's more compatible).

If price and availability of drives and discs were equal personally I'd go for DVD+R but currently I own a DVD-R (got it as a gift so I didn't make any format choice on my own). But nobody can promise you that the market is going to turn one way or the other. Most of the DVD-R owners will probably tell you that they'd never switch, same for the DVD+R owners and then there's all those rumours about DVD+R soon being a lot more accessible (and Microsoft wanting to push it in future operating systems) but in the end only time can tell.

[auenf]

Originally posted by Doom9
If price and availability of drives and discs were equal...

unfortunately down here its equally bad.

Enf...

[alexnoe]

At the moment, I save money in using DVD-R. If DVD+R gets somewhen cheaper than DVD-R, then I can sell my drive via ebay and get a DVD+R...

And don't forget that DVD+RW is less compatible to DVD-ROMs than DVD-RW if you use Verbatim or other high quality media (some drives, especially LG, don't read DVD crap media at all).
I know that DVDplusRW.org dream of higher compatibility, but the only drive I know that refuses Verbatim DVD-RW is a Toshiba 1x DVD-ROM, while several Toshiba- and Pioneer drives refuse DVD+RW.

[ilscuro]

dvd+r media prices are coming down in price all the time
in the UK check out www.bigpockets.co.uk

[alexnoe]

2,50 pound for unbranded (which might be crap media) is still too much.

[candyman_eu]

At the moment the lowest DVD+R media arround would be Platinum's in Jewelcase for 3.50 EURO and Verbatim's for 4.49 EURO/piece. They dropped around 1.50 EURO in the last 2-3 weeks alone ...

[exodious0]

candyman_eu: Where can I find those Verbatim disks?

[windtrader]

Doom: Would you speculate on what the adoption curve looks like if you plot DVD-R and DVD+R drives? What DVD+R drives seem to be delivering the best price/performance today?

Alexnoe: Interesting note about DVD-RW and DVD+RW compatiblity. If the media costs the same would you still buy a +R drive over a -R drive today or do you have other reasons behind your thinking?

Thanks folks, Don

[alexnoe]

A short history lesson:

At first, there were only DVD+RW drives which could not write to DVD+R.
Philips and HP promised that these drives would be upgradeable to DVD+R via firmware update.

Even after Philips admitted that it is impossible, HP continued to claim it was possible. Since all DVD+RW drives are based on Ricoh 5120/5125, it would be possible for all or none drives to upgrade.

Philips did offer to exchange a DVD+RW-only drive for a new DVD+R/+RW drive without additional charge, so I'd say they were just wrong in thinking the upgrade to be possible at first.

I consider it a fraud that HP continued to claim the drives to be upgradeable even after Philips admitted it being impossible. HP indeed wanted $100 for the upgrade at first.
That's why I'd never buy HP.

I want maximum compatibility, that's why I'd buy a Pioneer again at the moment (and use mainly Verbatim media btw) or a Sony.
The Pioneer drive is not perfect at all, especially it is only good for DVD burning, not reading, and it doesn't support crap media.

If you don't need maximum compatibility for RW media (note that good DVD-/+R media is almost 100% compatible to DVD-ROMs. The only drive I know that can't read DVD+R is AOpen 16x), you could also use DVD+. Especially 2,4x rewriting is fast (note that Pioneer will come up with 4x/2x this year).

If money is not a serious issue for you (which it shouldn't if you think about buying a dvd writer), you should wait for Sony to release their DVD+/-R(W)-combo drive.
This decision can't be wrong...

[exodious0]

What's the difference between "Wobbled groove + Land pre-pit" that DVD-R media is using and "Phase modulated wobbled groove" that DVD+R is using? Is the other one more expensive that the other? Mabe DVD-R is cheaper to manufacture than DVD+R and therefore will continue to be cheaper in the future.

[FWMan]

I'm totally agree with Alexnoe...
Why would you buy the product, which have a litigation due to fault advertise.
Any how here is DVD-Forum words:
The Burning Question (http://pioneer-usa.rsc03.net/servlet/cc5?igjQSRTVkHtLkxJHthilpJQJhuV2VU)

If someone said +R is have more reflection then pls show me the spec.
As far as I know +R and -R they are the same on this issue, therefore there is no different to play +R/-R on tabletop DVD player.

-R production/used is far more than +R, of course you would hear more stories on -R than +R.

I would goes for -R, without thinking.

The poitn of +R and -R boiled down to is MONEY... Who's gone have the royalty money (we talking a big busck here)...
Like China, they are working on a new DVD spec, because they sicking tired of pay royalty...www.cdrinfo.com

One more thing... check this thread
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=172720#post172720

[SirDavidGuy]

A have it on the words of a professional CD/DVD drive designer that DVD+R(W) is superiour.

[Doom9]

@alexnoe: unless I'm mistaken your statements on RW compatibilitiy contradict the tests conducted by c't.

All the +RW drives are manfactured by the same company so they perfom pretty much the same. For more details you should consult your favorite PC mag, I don't recall the latest test results and people are usually very particular about the source of info (for instance I consider THG test results less reliable than anandtech, and both less than c't). IF you don't like HP you can easily buy another +R/W drive, they're not manufactured by HP anyway so they won't be making any money from your purchase.

@windtrader: I can't possibly do that, I'm in no position to make any kind of halfway educated claim, I have almost zero usable data to base any claim on.

When it comes to performance in terms of writing +R/W is the way to go, and as for the future, both technologies will offer 4x burning later this year. Whether +R/W will offer 4.8x writing speed (we know Pioneer will offer 4x/2x) is yet unknown, as is whether +RW can still be burned at the same speed as +R.

[alexnoe]

@alexnoe: unless I'm mistaken your statements on RW compatibilitiy contradict the tests conducted by c't.

You're right. But I can't do anything about some Toshiba and Pioneer drives not reading DVD+RW media, while all drives seem to read (Verbatim) DVD-RW media...cdrinfo said that newer LG can't read DVD-RW media, but this is wrong. I tested it on my own for 12x and 16x, and they read Verbatim DVD-RW without any issue (while Pioneer discs indeed don't work, neither do Optodisc or even Princo).

In de.comp.hardware.laufwerke.brenner, someone found out something "nice": Many newer DVD players refuse DVD+RW media only if the media descriptor is set to DVD-ROM, which enables older players to read them: You can decide if either newer or older players can read them. Haha!

I don't consult any PC mag. Many are full of errors or inaccuracies (as to dvd+-rw: the media issue). I didn't find any mag without such "problems".

I stopped reading THG after he wrote nonsense as "you need a special compiler to write P4 optimized software" or his SafeDisc 2 explanation, which doesn't make any sense.
When he tried to compare 3d power with AMD vs Intel, he used GF2 cards to slow down the whole system and make in impossible to say anything about the CPU in the end. His overclocking test of P4As was done on a DDR-RAM system. etc etc etc
"Less reliable" is a nice phrase. I don't waste my time any longer in reading him. I simply can't take him serious...He likes to write about thinks he doesn't have knowledge about.

+RW will be 4x/4x if i'm not mistaken (not 4.8x).
This is still the only advantage over -RW.

SDG: The disc itself is superior for standalone recording. But a "superior" disc is absolutely useless to me if it can't be read even in all dvd-roms.

[Commander XJL]

I'm already reading DVD+R will be gone soon, DVDR is the adopted media, just ask hollywood. DVDR+R is gonna be another DAT tape compared to CDR, and we all know what happened to DAT tape. Face it, there is not gonna be 2 DVDR formats in the end, and its already obvious which one is gonna stay around, if you don't know which one just check out how much easier and cheaper it is to buy DVDR and DVD-RW disks

[alexnoe]

I hope that DVD+R will stay for a while. Competition is good for the prices we have to pay for DVD-R media...

Where did you read "DVD+R will soon be gone"?

[candyman_eu]

Actually I think DVD+ is here for a long time. One of the mainreasons for this being that Microsoft is including writing support in the successor of Windows XP and that will include DVD+R/RW support. Besides with SONY bringing out the first multiwriter for both + and - markets I would say many will follow them. Prices for + media are also decreasing massively ...
But we can only wait and see ...

[alexnoe]

InCD / DirectCD have been out for over 4 years now and still don't work.
So why does M$ dream of implementing a working packet writing system for dvd+rw?

[candyman_eu]

If I don't mistake, then DirectCD is a product from Adaptex/Roxio and InCD is from Ahead. What do those have to do with Microsoft ?

Anyway that's not the topic here ... I don't know what's behind their decision to support the + people, but I guess their engineers do know.

[alexnoe]

Anyway that's not the topic here ... I don't know what's behind their decision to support the + people, but I guess their engineers do know.

InCD/DirectCD is indeed a matter of discussion here: These programs are exactly what M$ wants to implement into the next windows, with the difference that In/Direct CD is for CD, not for DVD+RW.
If you use such programs and get a BSOD, your entire disc you were writing to is completely unreadable.

Microsoft wants to implement such a one-bsod-and-all-data-on-your-dvd-is-lost-technology in their next windows.

Do never expect M$ to do something because it is reasonable.

I don't think that their engineers know anything. Look back what they did till now:

they released the Open-DML AVI extentions 6 years ago, and even nowadays their own players can't read it properly.
They call Win ME an "OS" (random-BSOD-generator would be more suitable)
There is a bug in outlook express that causes windows to freeze if you click onto certain invalid email addressed. They've known that since several years and haven't fixed it yet).


In my opinion, the decision of M$ is based on the simply fact that they attended the dvd+rw people and now have to do something.
But it definitely doesn't make any sense.

[Sergey Nameless]

2alexnoe
If M$ is so bad, use something better.

[alexnoe]

I justed wanted to point out that their decision to support DVD+RW doesn't allow any conclusion as to if dvd+rw is better or not.

[windtrader]

While the new products with 4x capability is interesting, it does not seem like it will be relavent for quite some time. Today many DVD writers support 2x but there still isn't lots of cheap 2x media that is supported by the writers.

If this repeats again as 4x comes out, I'll probably burn up the drive I buy today before 4x gets mainstreamed (cheap).

So it's shaping up that a dvd-r/rw drive is still the choice today.

Don

[alexnoe]

Supporting only a few really good brands at 2x is IMHO better than trying to burn all kind of crap media at 2x and causing coasters.

The most interesting of the 4x drive is that 2x drives will get much cheaper then...

[Sergey Nameless]

I want to make DVD's with home video (from DV) and looking for what to buy as DVD recorder. Visited http://www.dvdplusrw.org/video/comparison.html

I read that DVD+R/+RW format supports VBR, but DVD-R/-RW does not (In compatability mode, I think this is mode when DVD could be played on PC and on stand alone DVD player). Is this true? If yes then DVD+R, I assume, are better.

[alexnoe]

No, this is not true, it is FUD (http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/f/FUD.html), as some other stuff you find there.

DVD-R/W standalone recorders from Pioneer don't support VBR recording, but if you record DV on your PC and encode it with TMPEG, CCE or the such, then you can of course make VBR.

Every DVD movie you buy is VBR, usually 2000-9000 kBit/s (minimum might be higher, because they have enough space on dual layer discs)!

BTW: guess why dvdplusrw doesn't mention PC drives in any way: Simply because the only advantage is 2,4x rewriting, which DVD-RW won't offer for some time.

[Sergey Nameless]

2alexnoe
Thanks. I hoped for that....

[golfextreme]

When are the 4x recorders expected to be out?

[alexnoe]

The Pioneer 4x/2x is scheduled for November, but it will not be out before it is ready...

[windtrader]

Alexnoe,

Can you describe what read write capabilties the new Pioneer and thers will have? Something like CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R, DVD-RW . I did not understand the 4x,2x convention.

Thanks,
Don

[alexnoe]

4x DVD-R and 2x DVD-RW. I don't know about CD-R/W or about reading.

[windtrader]

I kind of thought that but the 4x read seemed quite slow compared to the DVD-R drives. Are most people here using two DVD drives to get the much faster read speeds?

[alexnoe]

I have a Toshiba 1502 DVD-ROM, a LiteOn 40x writer, a Cyberdrive 32x writer and a Pioneer DVD writer.

The only thing I found the Pioneer DVD writer is good for reading is Key2Audio V2.

[Antimon]

I have the spony combo drive, so now the situation becomes what media do i buy.....


DVD-R is certianly cheaper.....but is it cheaper because it is not as good? Or cus it has bene around longer, so far i've on;ly burned to +rw which work sin both my sony writer and my a-open dvd drive (which is unbranded panasonic if i remeber right)

It doe snto work in my apex 660 set top though, comes back as no disc.

I have soem dvd+r here i have not wrote to yet and i have a 25 pack of dvd-R comign based on price alone *plus i want to play*

So is price the onyl consideration though?

Compatability specs, and availability seem abotu equal; at thsi point, in fact in the retail market it's easier to fidn +r then - r right now (circut city, best buy, comp usa)
And online, -r seems to be pushed more. I'm glad to have a drive that suports both but i wish theyd just pick one already and have everyoen rally aroudn that oen format to improve it esnetad of developign competign standards and slowign down progress of both.

[wfn1]

i see no compelling reason for choosing DVD+R/W over DVD-R/W except the fact that you have to erase DVD-RW discs if you want to re-record and for DVD+RW you can just keep adding stuff.

I personally never used CD-RW, DVD-RW, DVD+RW. I just don't need it. Media is so cheap for CD-R & DVD-R I can afford to throw it away if something gets hosed. On top of that if you know what you're doing you won't get many coasters.

DVD-R is by far more compatible with settops than DVD+R/W so just get with the program and get yourself a DVD-R.

Also, the new DVD-R drives like Pioneer DVR-105/A05 and Sony DRU-500A can record at 4x while the + counterpart is still limited to 2.4x

[Antimon]

The point for rw media si not to recover from coasters but for constantly changing data or somethign you dont need a hard copy for, i use it to transfer files form one pc to another, it's far easier then burign toa cdr that is wasted, cheap or not why waste a perfectly good disk opn a 5 meg install file or a vcd i plan to watch once on my set top.

so you dotn have to erase a rw you can just record over? sweet, gotta try that.

as far as i knwo the sony 500 a does nto write at 4x and 2.4 is only for +rw -rw si still 2 as as -+ r

I fidn ti interestign though that rw and r speeds develope in parallele with dvd while rw speed was always and still lags behind the r speed with cd's

[alexnoe]

DRU500A has 2.4x for +R(W), 2x DVD-RW and 4x DVD-R.

DVD-RW must be "quick erased", which takes 1:40 at 1x speed, if you want to make a real DVD disc. So if you only want to write 5 MB or the such, it's indeed a lot of time.

Other possibility: use packet writing, then you can use it as a big floppy (btw DVD+RW isn't doing anything else...it's just plain packet writing)

[Antimon]

ah well that explaisn why dvd+rw has soem mega compatability issues then, if the disk is always just a string of packets, it's less compatable.

well maybe you can get more out of it but the offical specs on the box for the dru500a just released *looks at my box* dude you're right, sweet have to try burning at 4x now hehe when my -r's come in

well thast another reason to use -R i supose, if it burns stable at that speed