terratec cinergy?

[Cidici]

have any of you tried this tvcard ?
do u know if it works with btwincap, dscaler and the other good softwares around ?

thank u in advance

[Swan]

I just bought a Cinergy 4oo TV Stereo card and have been trying to get it to work properly all day. It does not work with Dscaler. Dscaler starts up and says "No suitable hardware" and then shuts down. I don't think it works with btwincap drivers, since it appears it hasn't a BT-chip, but a Philips SAA 7143 chipset (according to the manual). While mounting it, I did not see a Connexant chip either, just a massive Philips tuner component. :-)

It is delievered with WinDVR 1.8 for capturing in mpeg-1 and 2, but although I have a new computer (only 6 months old Athlon XP 1900+, 768 MB Ram and fast hard drives) I get dropped frames while capturing. I am pretty experienced in capturing (this is my third card), but to be sure, I installed the latest via-4-in-one, direct X, you name it. Still, the capturing in 720 x 576 does not go as smoothly as I had expected. I can capture in full resolution mpeg-2 without any dropped frames with my other capture cards (Aver TV Studio and Matrox G450 eTV), so there's something fishy about the Terratec card. It doesn't perform as advertised. Capturing with the Terratec application is a joke. As soon as I hit the reord button, the audio disappears. Watching TV is unbearable, as the application doesn't deinterlace properly.

After a few more experiements to see if I can get it to work, I am pretty sure I will return it to the shop.

/Swan

[seldon]

Hi there..

I just bought a Cinergy 4oo TV Stereo card and have been trying to work properly all day. It does not work with Dscaler. Dscaler starts up and says "No suitable hardware" and then shuts down. I don't think it works with btwincap drivers, since it appears it hasn't a BT-chip, but a Philips SAA 7143 chipset (according to the manual). While mounting it, I did not see a Connexant chip either, just a massive Philips tuner component. :-)

Yes it uses a new Philips chip(SAA7134 - the first 9-bit video-decoding chip according to Philips) so it doesn't work with Dscaler or the btwincap drivers.


It is delievered with WinDVR 1.8 for capturing in mpeg-1 and 2, but although I have a new computer (only 6 months old Athlon XP 1900+, 768 MB Ram and fast hard drives) I get dropped frames while capturing.

I've had problems with WinDVR too, it simply crashes when trying to capture, but i think this is a driver issue. The new beta-drivers Terratec released last week might help. I deleted WinDVR after 10 agonizing atempts to make it work. Why would you want to capture in MPEG2 anyway?

Capturing with the Terratec application is a joke. As soon as I hit the reord button, the audio disappears. Watching TV is unbearable, as the application doesn't deinterlace properly.

This is totally different from my experiences with the card. Capturing from the Terratec application works fine for me, although it's kind of a clumsy setup. Watching TV works perfectly for me very sharp and noise-free picture, NO interlacing artifacts.

I use iuVCR for capturing and that too works like a charm. I can capture 720X*** with no droped frames in Huff and MJPEG or as i usually do capture in 512x384 in XVID on my old Athlon 700mhz with 128MB ram.

After a few more experiements to see if I can get it to work, I am pretty sure I will return it to the shop.

Try to give iuVCR a try and perhaps the new beta-drivers.

I'm very satisfied with this card, the only thing that really bugs me is when watching tv in the terratec application changing channels sometimes(1 out of 25 times) i get an annoying scratching sound, but changing the channel back and forth one times removes it.


-Seldon

[Swan]

Originally posted by seldon
[B]I've had problems with WinDVR too, it simply crashes when trying to capture, but i think this is a driver issue.

The version on the Terratec CD also crashed for me as soon as I started to capture with it, but an earlier build worked fine. But it is not ideal to use with my audio card (Audigy Platinum) as it is impossible to get WinDVR to use the "line in/what you hear" (master recording input) for sound. It is just not selectable, so each time I wanted to record with WinDVR, I had to manually select the corect audio input. Frustrating! The new version of WinDVR does let one select the "what you hear".

Secondly, I tried the card with Cyberlink's PowerVCR which I have used to great success with my Aver card, capturing in full DVD resolution and the highest video and audio bitrate possible (within the software). It doesn't drop any frames and the playback of these files are fine. However, the files captured with the Cinergy card displayed slight, but ugly jerkiness at times, caused by, most likely, dropped frames. It may be a driver issue, yes. It shouldn't drop frames at all, my system is well up to the task.


The new beta-drivers Terratec released last week might help.


Can you please submit a URL where can I download these?

Why would you want to capture in MPEG2 anyway?
That is my choice. I think the quality is excellent and well suited for conversion to DivX 3 or Xvid. I capture in avi format using Huffyav, when it's only a short clip I wish to capture, like a music video, but mainly I capture 60 minutes or longer shows, and I prefer to do so in the highest possible quality mpeg-2 format.

it's kind of a clumsy setup. Watching TV works perfectly for me very sharp and noise-free picture, NO interlacing artifacts.

Do you watch in full resolution? Does the "deinterlacing" check box work for you? Does it make a difference if you enable it or not?
What OS are you running? What graphics card do you have? What version of DirectX? Are you using the new drivers?


I use iuVCR for capturing and that too works like a charm. I can capture 720X*** with no droped frames in Huff and MJPEG or as i


Does IuVCR report dropped frames?
I can also capture in at least 704x576 using Huffyuv for compression with my Matrox card, that's why I find it strange that this does not work flawlessly with the Cinergy card.


I'm very satisfied with this card, the only thing that really bugs me is when watching tv in the terratec application changing channels


And why does it want to start up in that mode? I never use the tuner, I use the composite line, so that it starts in this particular mode is very annoying, indeed.

/Swan

[seldon]

Can you please submit a URL where can I download these?

ftp://ftp.terratec.de/Receiver/Cinergy400TV/

There is also a betaversion of the Terratec application, which i haven't tried.


That is my choice. I think the quality is excellent and well suited for conversion to DivX 3 or Xvid. I capture in avi format using Huffyav, when it's only a short clip I wish to capture, like a music video, but mainly I capture 60 minutes or longer shows, and I prefer to do so in the highest possible quality mpeg-2 format.

Maybe i should give it a try.. How CPU demanding is the capture compared to MJPEG?

Do you watch in full resolution? Does the "deinterlacing" check box work for you? Does it make a difference if you enable it or not?

Usually in 640x480, but it looks fine in full resolution too. The deinterlacing checkbox "checks" it self when the tuner inputs interlaced contents. Actually thats another bug in the program, if i disable it while watching an interlaced show the screen just blanks out. But the deinterlacer definetly works, quite good actually.


What OS are you running? What graphics card do you have? What version of DirectX? Are you using the new drivers?

Win2k, TNT2, 8.0 and yes i'm using the new betadrivers. I haven't really noticed any difference from the first relase.

Does IuVCR report dropped frames?

Yes.

And why does it want to start up in that mode? I never use the tuner, I use the composite line, so that it starts in this particular mode is very annoying, indeed.

I use the tuner input, and i think thats where the diffrence is. I haven't tried the composite line-in. This would explain the difference in the deinterlacing, but i can't understand that this should cause framedrops in the capture apps.

Do you also have this scratching sound occuring sometimes?

-Seldon

[Swan]

Seldon,

thanks for the URL to the betadrivers. Depnding on my mood, I may format my disk and reinstall Windows tomorrow. :-) It would be interesting to see if this would resove any of the problems I'm having. Then I'd also try the new drivers.
But it seems strange, that capturing in full resoluton mpeg-2 works with the Aver card, but not the Terratec one, and that a reformat would solve it. :-)

Have you also got a Via chipset?

Maybe i should give it a try.. How CPU demanding is the capture compared to MJPEG?

I can't say, as I have only tried MJPEG once (Morgan) and was not satisfied with the quality. Mpeg-2 capturing is pretty intense at the highest quality setting (720 x 576 PAL, audio at 384 kbps and the video bitrate at 10.000), though. I don't do anything else with the computer while it captures and when starting Task Manager and looking at the CPU Usage, the green "bar" is often up to 2/3 of full.

About the dropped frames when using Terratec's software. The strange thing is that when I capture, it reports 0 frame drops. But when I watch the recorded clip, it's defintely full of dropped frames (very jerky movement).

Do you also have this scratching sound occuring sometimes?

I've not used the tuner part, as I don't have an antenna nearby. Also, in my country, the stations that air via the air :-) are few and boring. I record from my digital satellite receiver via composite cable. But if/when I can test with an antenna signal, I will let you know.

[seldon]

Swan,


thanks for the URL to the betadrivers

You're welcome :)

Depnding on my mood, I may format my disk and reinstall Windows tomorrow. :-) It would be interesting to see if this would resove any of the problems I'm having. Then I'd also try the new drivers.
But it seems strange, that capturing in full resoluton mpeg-2 works with the Aver card, but not the Terratec one, and that a reformat would solve it. :-)

You're right, it doesn't sound like something a reformat would solve. I really think you sould give iuVCR a try. I tried several other capture programs and all of them behaved weird(droped frames suddenly without maxing out cpu usage or crashed suddenly)but iuVCR works great for me. The timer function also runs witout any problems.

Have you also got a Via chipset?

Yes.

looking at the CPU Usage, the green "bar" is often up to 2/3 of full

Uhhh.. on a XP 1900+.. sounds a little steep for my 700mhz.:(


About the dropped frames when using Terratec's software. The strange thing is that when I capture, it reports 0 frame drops. But when I watch the recorded clip, it's defintely full of dropped frames (very jerky movement).

Sounds weird. Are you sure that it isn't a playback problem?


But if/when I can test with an antenna signal, I will let you know.

Please do! :)

-Seldon

[Swan]

After a reinstall, I'm back. :-)

The re-formatting of my drives and fresh installation of Windows made mpeg-recording a little more plesant. The captured files jerk slightly less, but it's still there. I've checked all the usual things (IRQ's, etcetera) and installed all the latest of everything, but it's no good. Perhaps this card dislikes being in the company of some other hardware I have. The jerking is very slight and appears randomly. It could be missed, unless one looks carefully. But it's there and it's more than I can put up with.

The non-working deinterlacing while watching TV with the Terratec application was solved by the reinstallation. It's not perfectly deinterlaced, but it looks OK to me.

I took your advice, Seldon, and tried IuVCR and with it, I can capture avi with HuffYUV compression in full DVD size without any frame drops! Using Terratec's application, it sometimes works, sometimes not, and the audio gets shut off when I press the "rec" button. :-(

The jerkiness of the avi's captured with Terratec's software is not caused by a playback problem. Going through them, frame by frame, in VirtualDub reveals drops. Not so with the clips from IuVCR. :-)

I also had the chance to try the tuner. I did not get a scratching sound while changing channels.

/Swan

[seldon]

Swan,

The jerking is very slight and appears randomly. It could be missed, unless one looks carefully. But it's there and it's more than I can put up with.

Please describe the jerkyness. Is it dropped frames or movement in the picture?

I took your advice, Seldon, and tried IuVCR and with it, I can capture avi with HuffYUV compression in full DVD size without any frame drops!

Glad it worked. :) What about MPEG2?

I also had the chance to try the tuner. I did not get a scratching sound while changing channels.

Hmmm.. Too bad(for me), i was kinda hoping it was a driver issue that would be solved later on.

What do you think of the quality of your captures compared to captures from your other cards?

-Seldon

[Swan]

Please describe the jerkyness. Is it dropped frames or movement in the picture?

It looks like dropped frames, but just one or two, with several minutes in between each drop. I just ran a file recorded with PowerVCR through an mpeg-examination tool and it reported "dropped frames" and "duplicate frames". So, since WinDVR doesn't work for me, I can't record in mpeg-2 with the Terratec card. I just installed my old Aver card and captured 60 minutes of video and the examination did not reveal any dropped frames in that recording. I was using the same settings in PowerVCR as I did with the Terratec card. Something's fishy here. :-(

What do you think of the quality of your captures compared to captures from your other cards?

I think the Terratec offers the best image quality, as far as the quality of the captured (mpeg) video files. For just viewing TV, it's equal -or perhaps a little better- than the Matrox card, but much better than the Aver. I have a problem with interference in areas of blue and red colors with the Aver card. It's kind of hard to explain, but you can download a video-file here and see for yourself:
http://w1.837.telia.com/~u83704167/avertest/index.html

Perhaps when I can switch to S-video cables, the problem will go away.

The Matrox card can only capture in 704 x 576, which is one of the reasons I purchased the AverTV Studio card, which, like the Terratec goes to 720 x 576.
The Matrox card was bundled with a software that uses Ligos MPEG-filters and the quality was so-so. The quality of these mpeg-filters are apparently not as high as those from Intervideo that ships with the Aver card and is the core of WinDVR. Also, the mpeg-encoding filters in Cyberlink's PowerVCR is much better than Ligos's.

So the Terratec wins, hands down, but since it drops frames, I just have no use for it when capturing in mpeg. :-(
For avi-capturing with HuffUV and IUvcr, it is really nice, though.

/Swan

[Cidici]

i forgot about this post i made, and now that i check it, how many replies :-)

so it seems it's a good card but not usable with dscaler/btwincap driver that are commonly considerated great tools for capturing :/
maybe it's better a classic hauppauge card with bt8x8, the only (or maybe the most important) difference is the stereo tuner of the terratec compared to the mono one of the hauppauge, but my target is similar to swan's one, that is capturing from the video-in and NOT from the tuner, so it doesnt matter too much


thank you for your experiences :-)

[seldon]

Swan and others,

Terratec has released a new driver version, 1.4 final.

These new drivers has solved all the issues I have had with the card.
The occational scratching sound when switching between channels is gone and WinDVR works like a charm.

It's just a shame that my machine isn't fast enough to capture in full size PAL in MPEG2. :(


-Seldon

[Swan]

Seldon, thanks a bunch for the info!
I downloaded and installed the new drivers, Terratec TV software and WinDVR 2.

I was wondering if you could do me a favor? I know you can't capture in full size mpeg-2 using WinDVR, but could you create a custom profile and see if you can select an audio bitrate of 384, please? The drop-down box only lets me go as high as 224, 384 is not available! It was, in WinDVR 1.8, so I'm wondering if Intervideo changed this in version 2.0?

Also, I've discovered something. When I examine the avi-files I capture with the card (they have some sort of weird motion, looks like frame drops, but the capturing software has not reported frame drops) I noticed one serious thing: the captured clips look weird because the frame rate is approximately only 12 frames per second. Not 25!
I also tested capturing in various resolutions and found this: Capturing in 352 x 288 works fine (I get 25 fps). Capturing in SVCD resolution (480x576) worked fine too. But as soon as I go to full horizontal resolution (720 x 576), the frame rate drops to about 12.

Sigh!

/Swan

[seldon]

Swan,

I was wondering if you could do me a favor? I know you can't capture in full size mpeg-2 using WinDVR, but could you create a custom profile and see if you can select an audio bitrate of 384, please? The drop-down box only lets me go as high as 224, 384 is not available! It was, in WinDVR 1.8, so I'm wondering if Intervideo changed this in version 2.0?

I can't choose higher than 224 either.

Also, I've discovered something. When I examine the avi-files I capture with the card (they have some sort of weird motion, looks like frame drops, but the capturing software has not reported frame drops) I noticed one serious thing: the captured clips look weird because the frame rate is approximately only 12 frames per second. Not 25!
I also tested capturing in various resolutions and found this: Capturing in 352 x 288 works fine (I get 25 fps). Capturing in SVCD resolution (480x576) worked fine too. But as soon as I go to full horizontal resolution (720 x 576), the frame rate drops to about 12.

This sounds extremely weird. Is this in WinDVR only or in other capture programs/formats too? I can't really test it in WinDVR because my computer drops alot of frames in 720x576 MPEG2. When i capture in MJPEG or Huff in 720x576 i get perfect 25fps video without any framedrops.

-Seldon

[Swan]

Seldon, thanks a bunch for taking the time to verify the lack of 384 in the audio bitrate selection box of WinDVR. I will e-mail Intervideo and ask "what's up with that?" :-)

This sounds extremely weird. Is this in WinDVR only or in other capture programs/formats too?

I went down to basics and used AmCap (a very simple Microsoft capturing program, which I believe is used by programmers to test video capturing). :-)
I also used Avi_Io, same result as with Terratecs own software: no frame drops reported, but as soon as I go up to 720 in horizontal resolution, the frame rate drops! With Amcap I see the fps being reported as I capture. That's what brought my attention to it.

How I also verify that the frame rate is messed up is during plaback. In Media Player 6.4, I select Properties and then the Properties for Video Renderer. I see fps 12.5 or something similar, not 25, as I normally do when capturing with my Aver Studio card.

Very weird indeed! I actually don't know what to do next. I have tested to put the card to a different slot, no difference. And I have no IRQ conflicts. And the Aver card works like a charm with the Btwincap drivers. Don't know why the Cinergy won't co-operate.

/Swan

[seldon]

Swan,

I went down to basics and used AmCap (a very simple Microsoft capturing program, which I believe is used by programmers to test video capturing). :-)
I also used Avi_Io, same result as with Terratecs own software: no frame drops reported, but as soon as I go up to 720 in horizontal resolution, the frame rate drops! With Amcap I see the fps being reported as I capture. That's what brought my attention to it.

Which codec are you using? Does this happen with all codecs?

I've just tried again and I can't reproduce the error. I get 25 fps in 720x576 in both iuVCR and in the terratec application using MJPEG.


-Seldon

[Swan]

Which codec are you using? Does this happen with all codecs?

I used HuffYUV and also Uncompressed. I can easily capture with the Aver card using HuffYUV at 720 x 576 with no frame drops and no reduction in frame rate.
I am really puzzled by this.

/Swan

[seldon]

Swan,

Which colourspace are you using? I've had some weird results capturing in RGB32, but as long as i stay in YUY2 everything works fine.

Are you sure that this isn't a playback problem? Huff and uncompressed is very demanding in 720x576.

Does the captures from your aver card playback allright using the same capture settings?

-Seldon

[Swan]

Seldon, thanks for taking an interest in my problems. ;-)

Which colourspace are you using? I've had some weird results capturing in RGB32, but as long as i stay in YUY2 everything works fine.

I used RGB 24 and YUY2.

Are you sure that this isn't a playback problem? Huff and uncompressed is very demanding in 720x576. Does the captures from your aver card playback allright using the same capture settings? .


No, this isn't a playback problem. Because the clips I capture with the Aver card, using the exact same compression and resolution look splendid. I know my computer is fast enough to handle the task of both capturing and playing the files. Since it works perfectly with the Aver card and Btwincap drivers, but not with the Cinergy, I think the Cinergy or the drivers are to blame. At first I thought it was dropping frames while capturing, but after seeing the low frame rate, it all made sense. The weird motion in the clips captured with the Cinergy looks consistent with what a too low frame rate looks like. The video renderer properties tells me what Amcap tells me, that the frame rate is about half of what it should be. No wonder it looks weird. :-)

/Swan

[Cidici]

hi there!
my brother finally decided to buy a tv-card, but he's not sure about the new terratec cinergy400 (stereo tv, radio, remote controller,60euro) and the Hauppuage Wintv primio( mono tv, radio, remote controller, 75euro).

the hauppauge card is older but it uses the old and famous BT chip that can be used with so many apps. on the contrary, the terratec has a stereo tuner and costs less.

the short-term-target is capturing from vhs/sat (that is, from the videoin and NOT from the tuner) at resolution adequate for SVCD/Divx conversion (or maybe full Pal), but in the future he could start using the integrated tv-tuner.

what do u suggest ?
i've read about your problems, and we want to capture decently, without framedrops, errors and so on...

[Swan]

Cidici,

I would not buy any of them. :-)
Stereo sound is important in my view. And so is being able to have the freedom to unlock a card's full potential using Btwincap drivers.

I'd buy a card with a btchip that is listed on the Btwincap site.
The Terratec seems to work fine for Seldon, but I have not had much success with it. And since it doesn't have a BTchip, I can't even try it with a different driver. I need to find the time to experiement some more with it, but right now I don't have the time and it's not that crucial to me either since the Aver TV Studio card does all I want (well, almost) with the Btwincapdrivers.

What your brother wants to do is what I do; capture from a digital satreceiver, sometimes from the VHS. I never use the tuner either.
Buy another card with stereo sound and a btchip, even if it costs 40 euros more, like the Aver card I have. It's worth spending a little more to get stereo *and* a btchip. That's my ten cents. :-)

/Swan

[Cidici]

thanks for your help!
at the present moment he's "analyzing" two other alternatives, both BT-based:
Pinnacle PCTV Pro and Hauppauge WinTV-FM (with stereo tuner), their price is around 120euro (the price is twice, but the money is not mine :)))

i'll search some info about them

ps i made a mistake : cinergy 400 is w/o radio, the 600 model has it

[seldon]

Cidici,

the short-term-target is capturing from vhs/sat (that is, from the videoin and NOT from the tuner) at resolution adequate for SVCD/Divx conversion (or maybe full Pal), but in the future he could start using the integrated tv-tuner.

I'm very happy with the Terratec card. I can capture in full PAL(720x576) without any framedrops in MJPEG or Huff and in 512x384 interlaced directly in xvid on my old 700mhz athlon with 128MB ram.

The quality of the capture is very satisfying to my eyes. And I believe that Swan stated that the quality of the captures with this card is superior to the ones obtained with a Bt-chip based card.

The remote control works fine in the tv-tuner program. I havn't tried using it for anything else.


what do u suggest ?
i've read about your problems, and we want to capture decently, without framedrops, errors and so on...

With the new drivers all my remaining problems disappeared.
I've been trying like a madman to reproduce Swan's 12fps problem capturing in full PAL, but I can't(except when capturing in RGB32).


I've never tried capturing with at BT-based card so i can't really tell you what's best, but I would definetely buy a card with stereo tuner.

-Seldon

[Cidici]

Originally posted by seldon


I've never tried capturing with at BT-based card so i can't really tell you what's best, but I would definetely buy a card with stereo tuner.

-Seldon

My brother changes his idea everyday:D
You must think that the price we can have are:
* WinTV-Primio (mono) for 75Euro
* WinTV-FM (stereo) for 130-135 Euro !!
The Cinergy 600 (with Radio) is in the middle, pricing 99euro, but my brother is planning to buy in the future something like a projector and in order to use it with this kind of cards a software like dscaler is needed (and it works only with BT-CHIP)

i think that a difference of 60euro ONLY for that damned stereo tuner is not acceptable. So we are thinking about the monotuner one, that for "normal tv viewing" is ok and when we'll need to capture something "serious" we could get the signal from a Stereo VCR via videoin and bypass the mono tuner.

[seldon]

Cidici,

Don't misunderstand this as a salestalk for the Cinergy card. Like i wrote before i haven't tried bt-based capture cards so i really can't compare the two.


You must think that the price we can have are:
* WinTV-Primio (mono) for 75Euro
* WinTV-FM (stereo) for 130-135 Euro !!
The Cinergy 600 (with Radio) is in the middle, pricing 99euro, but my brother is planning to buy in the future something like a projector and in order to use it with this kind of cards a software like dscaler is needed (and it works only with BT-CHIP)

The Cinergy400 costs less than the WinTV-primio(atleast here in Denmark), and it has a stereo tuner.

Excuse my ignorance, but why do you need to use Dscaler for a projector? You're probably gonna re-encode the captured video before using the projector right? So why not deinterlace during the re-encoding?

-Seldon

[Swan]

Originally posted by seldon
The quality of the capture is very satisfying to my eyes. And I believe that Swan stated that the quality of the captures with this card is superior to the ones obtained with a Bt-chip based card.

No, what I was trying to say was that the quality of the Cinergy's captures and just plain watching TV with is better that the Aver TV Studio card I have. I would not dare to speak of *all* BT-chip cards! Also, the reason why the Cinergy's captures looked better to me was that they were free of the noise/interference that I have in red and blue areas with the Aver card. This is possibly soluble with using S-video in, as opposed to Composite, which I am using now, or a video distribution amp, since my cables from the TV to the card are waaay long for comfort (10 meters).

I've been trying like a madman to reproduce Swan's 12fps problem capturing in full PAL, but I can't(except when capturing in RGB32).
That's very kind of you. Today I'll try to find the time verify my problems and formulate them in words. I'll re-check what works and doesn't work for me.
:-)

/SWan

[Cidici]

Originally posted by seldon
Cidici,

Don't misunderstand this as a salestalk for the Cinergy card. Like i wrote before i haven't tried bt-based capture cards so i really can't compare the two.

The Cinergy400 costs less than the WinTV-primio(atleast here in Denmark), and it has a stereo tuner.

Excuse my ignorance, but why do you need to use Dscaler for a projector? You're probably gonna re-encode the captured video before using the projector right? So why not deinterlace during the re-encoding?

-Seldon

i wont misunderstand you, dont worry, i think that the cinergy is a very good card with an optimum price/features ratio.
BTW the cinergy400 (the one u own) is w/o radio and my brother wants the radio too. i can pay the cinergy400 60euro and the cinergy600 100euro.
the difference in the prices i'm reporting it's due to the fact that the shop where i can have good discounts sells only the cinergy400 and the wintv-primio. If i want to buy the cinergy600 or the wintv-fm, i have to go to a "common" shop where i wont have any discount (i hope i explained well :)).

the idea of the projector is not "mature", just an idea, and i dont know a lot about it, but on the dscaler site they say : "DScaler is a piece of software that captures video, processes it, and scales it for presentation on a projector or computer monitor. Unlike most existing software that processes video, DScaler implements highly sophisticated algorithms that work in real-time, providing PC owners with a level of image quality unknown up to now"

on the review page of dscaler.org i find this :

"Buying an lcd or dmd matrix-based projector often comes with some strange behavior. All of a sudden, the owner gets the desire of "scaling" everything. That's just fine as this is exactly what offers the application Dscaler, previously known as dTV. Dscaler can be installed on a mid-range computer equipped with a capture card. From there, it becomes possible to deinterlace whatever [interlaced] source using composite or svideo connection, and scale it to the projector resolution.
Dscaler also allows to change the ratio, to adjust video parameters, to choose between different deinterlacing algorithms. For short, Dscaler is simply mandatory for anyone playing with a home theater computer. I almost forgot, Dscaler is open source and so, totally free"

These reviews come from home cinema magazine, not computer ones, so they should be quite reliable.

[Swan]

I wish you the best of luck in selecting a card, Cidici.

I've just made the final tests to confirm my problems.
I reinstalled the latest drivers and have tested capturing with AmCap and Terratec's software.
I verified what I wrote before: I do not frop frames during capturing, but the fps drops drastically when going over 352x288.

Capturing in 720x576 or 704x576 does not work at all. The frame rate is messed up. After capturing, I played the clips in Media Player 6.4 and checked the frame rate under Video Render's Properties. Some clips had a fps of about 12.99 and motion was slow.
Others played at a too high speed and Video Renderer reported a fps of 25. This is really a mess and its not easy to get consistent results, but I can't conclude anything other than that the fps is wrong.

These tests were made in RGB 24 colorspace, audio settings were 44.100 khz, 16 bit stereo. I did not use any video compression.

Other things I tried:
Turning off audio had no effect on the fps.
Changing to YUY2 lowered the fps slightly (to 11.2).
Changing to RGB 32 lowered the fps to 0.5 (!)
Adding HUFFYUV compression also slightly affected the fps in a negative way.

The same test with AverTV Studio and btwincap-drivers:
Passed all tests. No drops, no reduction in fps.

I also tried WinDVR 2 and the Cinergy. Same result as before, fps looks OK, but I get frame drops.
I have now mailed Terratec's Support, and if I get any response that helps me sort it out, I'll let you know.

/Swan

[Rainy]

Originally posted by Swan
I did not use any video compression.


This is the problem, you'll get _always_ dropped frames when capturing w/o any compression, mostly 50 - 75 % framedrops, why didn't select any compression codec, like huffy or mjpeg ?

[seldon]

@Cidici

I still don't understand why you need dscaler. You're going to capture the video first, right? In Huff or MJPEG and then re-encode/de-noise it before watching it using the projector? If this is the case why not deinterlace it during the re-encode using Decomb, GreedyHMA(which is AFAIK identical to the deinterlacing used in DScaler, someone please correct me if i'm wrong) or TomsMoComp filter(with which i've been getting amazing results btw). During the re-encode/filtering you can also scale/resize the video to the desired format.

If Dscaler has other features that can't be done with the right avisynt script, please correct me.


@Swan

No, what I was trying to say was that the quality of the Cinergy's captures and just plain watching TV with is better that the Aver TV Studio card I have. I would not dare to speak of *all* BT-chip cards!

Again this is something i have no practical knowlegde about, but i was under the impression that all BT-based cards produces the same quality capture when using the btwincap drivers. Is this wrong?

I've just made the final tests to confirm my problems.
I reinstalled the latest drivers and have tested capturing with AmCap and Terratec's software.
I verified what I wrote before: I do not frop frames during capturing, but the fps drops drastically when going over 352x288.

I still can't reproduce any of this behavour. Please do me a favour and try the same settings in iuVCR. Did you have this problem before you reinstalled your OS?

-Seldon

[Cidici]

Originally posted by seldon
@Cidici

I still don't understand why you need dscaler. You're going to capture the video first, right? In Huff or MJPEG and then re-encode/de-noise it before watching it using the projector? If this is the case why not deinterlace it during the re-encode using Decomb, GreedyHMA(which is AFAIK identical to the deinterlacing used in DScaler, someone please correct me if i'm wrong) or TomsMoComp filter(with which i've been getting amazing results btw). During the re-encode/filtering you can also scale/resize the video to the desired format.


You're right, but if u watch tv directly via the tvtuner on the projector, u need realtime deinterlacing :)

[Swan]

Rainy: This is the problem, you'll get _always_ dropped frames when capturing w/o any compression, mostly 50 - 75 % framedrops, why didn't select any compression codec, like huffy or mjpeg ?
I tried that too (see an earlier post by me). I am lucky in that I can compare the performance of the Cinergy card with my Avermedia card. With the Aver, I can capture with HUFFYUV - and without - any compression at 720x576 with *no* frame drops and with *no* reduction in the fps figure. Something's fishy with the Cinergy. The only thing my tests revealed was the the reduction in fps got slightly worse when going selecting RGB32 color space.
I am taking the card out of the computer and lending it to a friend who's interested in getting started with capturing. I'm interested to know if he can get it to work, like Seldon.

Seldon: Again this is something i have no practical knowlegde about, but i was under the impression that all BT-based cards produces the same quality capture when using the btwincap drivers. Is this wrong?
I would suspect that's not so, yes. :-) Some have the famous "eight vertical bars of death", etc. There are different btchips too.

still can't reproduce any of this behavour. Please do me a favour and try the same settings in iuVCR. Did you have this problem before you reinstalled your OS?
Yes, only then I didn't realize that is was a reduction in the fps number. I thought it was dropped frames. That's why I wrote that the Terratec application didn't report any frame drops, yet the captured clips looked very, very strange. I need a break now. will now lend the card to friend. :-)

/Swan

[Cidici]

Originally posted by Swan

I would suspect that's not so, yes. :-) Some have the famous "eight vertical bars of death", etc. There are different btchips too.
/Swan

What is this "eight vertical bars of death" ?!?

[Swan]

Originally posted by Cidici


What is this "eight vertical bars of death" ?!?

http://www.tv-cards.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=3d71f1e01bf3ffff;act=ST;f=9;t=80;hl=interference

/Swan

[Rainy]

btw, can someone post some screenshots from live tv made with cinergy 400, please ? I'm very interessted in this card...