Getting frenzy about MCF, OGG and XCD

[marc_albero]

OK Boys!

I got just excited with the News that 2x800MB rips could be in our grasp, but... we have to cool down a little bit, I think, since it is all not that good.

I'd like some of you, oh clever Masters of Encoding, to give me some anwsers to these questions, for I am tired of searching the threads out there. Please STRAIGHT, HUMAN-READABLE answers:

First: both OGG and MFC have or will have some means to DETECT and AVOID errors, but can they correct them, as the CD error correction system does?

Second: if those container formats they cannot correct errors, and if XCD can only error-protect file headers, any error in the video data will look like a scene-jump/big-crappy-block-artifact/something-else-but-equally-ugly at playback. IS THAT TRUE? If it is, this ain't no good archiving system. I don't want to store my precious rips in a format which won't guarantee me a perfect data recovery to HD in the future. Sorry, I love my films enough up to that point.

Third: what's the point in XCD? Not aiming archiving, that's for sure, so what? Creation of CDs with video contents that won't look cool in a few weeks? I don't want to sound critical at all, but PLEASE, tell me the truth and I will be able to sleep again.

Thanks, Marc

[avih]

hey marc_albero ;)

you are 100% correct.
mcf and/or ogg have only detection and NOT correction. the protected data in the header is only a very small part of the file that will keep essential data such as the fourcc etc. scratches will show as 'glitches' during playback. this is exactly the same as vcd or svcd or normal audio cd. if you have scratches, you have 'ticks' or temporary 'interferences' during playback. so won't u use svcd or vcd because of that? it's up to u to decide.

xcd is just allowing similar cd-capacity to svcd with similar trade-off of error correction vs cd capacity. it's just another storage option with it's pro's and con's. it's up to u to decide whether you use it or not. but generally speaking, more options is good for the users ;)

and don't forget that it all started because ppl (including myself) were wondering if it's possible at all to store and play on the fly *.avi file that will use the full capacity of the cd. so it started as an experiment, that proved it's possible, but will have exactly the same limitations as svcd.

cheers
avi.

[marc_albero]

Yes of course I am glad about any nef format. And I congratulate you for the idea and the success you have achieved. I just got it wrong.

Cheers, Marc

[DeXT]

I wonder why every people thinks their XCDs will only last a small amount of time. ¿weeks? Come on! ECC is the THIRD layer of data protection on the CD, if you remove it you still will get TWO layers to guarantee that your data can be recovered... and these works pretty good (I still have to see a ruined VCD/SVCD, even with dust and scratches, and many years old). And no I'm not talking about "display glitches"... just perfect playback/copying.

[int 21h]

I second that. I have many, many SVCDs that have survived quite a bit. Maybe one or two has a display glitch, but they all playback great.

I guess some people just want as close to the original bits as possible.

[TheXung]

Well you know . . . . some people have very important things on video like weddings, graduations, and when their kids were little or alive. Some of these thing are more important than a silly movie.

Then again, I guess the smart person would have two copies of something if it were important.

[marc_albero]

OK!

Definitely, the problem here is my lack of knowledge.
What layers are you talking about?

Maybe the first one is OGG's error DETECTION feature. That is no protection, from my point of view. It just skips problematic points, but once the scratch is there and the glitch appears, you have a problem.

The second layer can be the one in XCD, but again, it just protects headers. Do you really mean that any seriour scratch will ONLY affect headers. Of course not. As far as I know, the video data is completely unprotected. There is no means of recovering lost data.

By the way: IS THAT HEADER PROTECTION ALREADY INCLUDED IN XCD OR NOT? I think it is still not ready, but maybe I am wrong. If I am not, do you know about any release date for a final version?

Ladies and gentlemen, I love the films I encode, or the other way round, I only encode the films I love. Don't wanna see my work fucked up. Don't wanna see not even a small jump/glitch right at the moment when the boy kisses the girl (or viceversa). Do you understand it?

But you are not entirely wrong: I would of course take a good care of my CDs if I was to store them with XCD. This could help them last years! By the time the video would be damaged, a much much much better codec would be out there (Tarkin?), which I would use to reencode the film in order to store it in my brand new 2+GB CD burner.

Maybe the point is not to think of everlasting backups, but temporary backups (in a rather long term). From that viewpoint, XCD would be a key format. Anyway, I still have to know: WHEN WILL WE HAVE A FULL FUNCTIONAL RELEASE OF XCD?

What do you people think?

Cheers,
Marc

[avih]

WHEN WILL WE HAVE A FULL FUNCTIONAL RELEASE OF XCD?

when it's ready.

[marc_albero]

Not even a scheduled date? :-)

[TheXung]

Dext can probably explain it better than I can but if I recall correctly, one of the levels of protection is at a lower level than the filesystem or container level. It's the mechanism that keeps a song on track even when there are skips in the song.

[robUx4]

Originally posted by marc_albero
Ladies and gentlemen, I love the films I encode, or the other way round, I only encode the films I love. Don't wanna see my work fucked up. Don't wanna see not even a small jump/glitch right at the moment when the boy kisses the girl (or viceversa). Do you understand it?


If you love those movies, just take good care of your DVDs because no protection can save you from a big scratch.
If you want the highest protection possible, you just have to use the regular data CDs you can burn with Nero or other tools. You don't need a lossy format (which might not lose much, especially if you take care of your beloved DVDs).