bitrate!!

[Dreassica]

I noticed something i can't explain myself, so i thought i just ask it her.
I just encoded a DBZ episode PAL version and it looks fine enough but i downloaded some other HQ Dragonball Z episodes and the have higher bitrates than mine while mine is slightly bigger in size. The strange thing is that both resolution andcodec use (divX5 are the same and i have tried changing a lot of parametres like the resize method, changing quantizers and that sort of stuff but my rips always end up being bigger at the same bitrate as the downloaded rips..am i missing something, because gordian knot does suggest a lower bitrate than the downloaded rips at the same size (200mb)and at the same resolution too. Are there ways of increasing the bitrate without it increasing the filesize??

[-h]

If you specify a lower bitrate for the audio, you'll have more bits to give to the video.

-h

[Dreassica]

That's not the issue as my audio already is smaller (mine is 128 kb per second mp3 against 160 kb per second for the downloaded ones)
i can achieve a bitrate of 155 at a filesize of 200mb (19mb audiofile included) while all of the eps i downloaded have a bitrate of 177-180 at the same 200mb filesize and 10kb mp3. If i use bitrates of that kind i get sizes around 210 (withou the audio included)

[Acaila]

Most people use smoothers to make all the even colored areas of anime look better. Most smoother filters decrease the filesize, so they can have a higher bitrate and still end up with a smaller file than you get.
Just do a search on the terms anime smooth to find a bunch of links for ideas on what to use.

Although using the term 'bitrate' is kinda confusing here, because the bitrate is directly related to the filesize (at least with 2-pass mode, with 1-pass mode the codec can't respond to the decrease in filesize).

[Dreassica]

i used those filters (smart smoother, 2d cleaner an warpsharp) in the rip with the lower bitrate at the same filesize so what am i missing here

[Awatef]

@ Dreassica
There is *NO WAY* you use the same bitrate and get another filesize!!

But if you have clips with different duration, of course you'll get different filesizes!

[Dreassica]

only 5 seconds difference between mine and the downloaded one so that isn't it either.

[Awatef]

I told you: *NO WAY*

Same duration & same bitrate = same filesize, it's a thumb rule that can't be broken! got it?!

You can go and fool people somewhere else, but not here!

[manono]

Hi-

Take it easy Awatef. I wind up with different file sizes with the same bit rate all the time. Say you run your two passes with one set of filters. You aren't satisfied with the result. You run a series of second passes without redoing the first pass. You use the same filters at stronger settings, or different filters. More frames are saturated at Quant 2, and not all the bits allowed are used. Voila-smaller file size.

I think you were kind of harsh with the fellow. That could easily have happened in Dreassica's case. You may not approve of the method, but it certainly disproves your blanket statement.

[Selur]

sounds like u have a little misunderstanding:
It's true that if u encode a movie (1pass)five times and u set a target bitrate u might end up with 5 differend sized files. But it's also true that a (let's say video only) file at a given filesize allways has the same average bitrate. :D

U have to differ between the bitrate u selected the codec to choose and the bitrate the codec choose to encode ;)

So my guess is manono&Dreassica use 1pass encoding,... and mixed their choosen bitrate with the bitrate used by the codec,...
(so doing a 2pass encode might help)

Cu Selur

[Awatef]

@ manono
Here *YOU* missed a point, if you end up with different sizes, then you have different bitrates (as Selur said ;))

Filters & such stuff DON'T have influence on filesize if you're using 2-pass encoding and that's what Dreassica is doing. And his files are getting bigger, so there is no saturation here, because if there were saturation he would got a smaller file!
And don't forget that's we're talking here about DBZ, which is damn hard to compress, an episode won't get saturated with 200MB or so, unless one uses a very low resolution under 320x240.

Look only to this sentence of Dreassica "they have higher bitrates than mine while mine is slightly bigger in size". This is non-sense par excellence!
One of two: he doesn't know what he's doing, or he's trying to fool us!

[manono]

Selur-If you read my post, you'll see that I mentioned 2 pass encoding twice. And of course there's a difference between the chosen bitrate and the actual bitrate in my example. I was just showing how what Dreassica experienced could have occured. No misunderstanding. I think you actually backed up my point:

It's true that if u encode a movie (2 pass )five times and u set a target bitrate u might end up with 5 different sized files.

This happens to me all the time, and I know exactly what's going on, and the reason for it.

Awatef-You as much as called Dreassica a liar. While it's true that he doesn't seem to understand what was going on, that's why he asked the question in the first place. Didn't it occur to you that it might have been the fellow who made the encode that he downloaded doesn't know what he's doing, or he's trying to fool us!. What you say about DBZ may be true-I wouldn't know. I don't touch the stuff, and in my opinion DBZ gives anime a bad name.

unless one uses a very low resolution under 320x240.

I assumed that is what was going on (look at the bit rates used). Since Dreassica doesn't have enough information about the downloaded encode (1 pass or 2, B frames or not, filters used, how the bit rate was derived, etc.), I don't think he should worry about it too much.

[Awatef]

@ manono
If you're talking about US DBZ, you're 100% right, what FUNimation has done to DBZ is awful, it's really a shame!
But please don't insult my uncut japanese DBZ right?! :devil:
DBZ (the uncut japanese version please :D) is one of the best anime series of all times!

back to the subject:
I think the best would be if Dreassica would give us detailed informations about the two AVI files:
1) Size in Bytes
2) Length in Min:Sec:Millisec
3) Audiobitrate
4) Videodetails, especially resolution & frame rate.
Then we will see.

[Dreassica]

Awatef..U could lower your tone and you might get a decent answer from me, i'm not lying, maybe i missed something obvious which i stated in my question. Read before u make any statements on my intentions, i was just wondering if i overlooked something that might explain it.
Anyways, here are the different specs u asked for for both files:

My rip:

resolution: 512-384
FPS 23.976
bitrate 155
filesize video\audio in bytes: 203125760 (184582144 for video, 18543616 for audio 128kb mp3)
duration episode 19 minutes 19 seconds 120 miliseconds

downloaded rip

resolution 512-384
fps 23.976
bitrate 177kbps
filesize video/audioin bytes 209156096(don't know exact video/audio sizes)
audio 143kbps mp3
duration episode 19 minutes 12 seconds 642 miliseconds.

As u can see my filesize is a little smaller in this case, but only 3mb's while the downloaded file has a higher bitrate mp3 which means its probably a few mb's bigger too, so that compensates those differences.
I did encode my rip at the 177kbps bitrate too but my file ended up being almost 200mb. And yes i DID try both 1 and 2 pass options, both with and without use of smoothing filters such as 2d cleaner and smart smoother HQ, but it doesn't matter, ther size does get smaller with 2 pass but so does the average bitrate.
Maybe i missed something obvious that could explain the difference, that's why i asked it in the first place. The only difference i could detect is that his source was NTSC DVD and mine is PAL.

[Awatef]

1) if your video is PAL, why has it 23,976fps instead of 25fps?!
2) The downloaded file has only 30kbps more than your rip. If my calculations aren't wrong, you used something like 1270kbps for video & he used something like 1300kbps. This is a difference of 3 to 4KB/s, not more => Windows is fooling around, both files have nearly the same bitrate which is about... well let's say 177KB/s for the downloaded file and 173KB/s for your file.

[Selur]

@manono: you are right I overlooked somehow that u mentioned 2pass,.. but u also mentioned that u did a "No, No !" by using different filters in 2nd and 1st pass,...

@Dreassica: 2pass encoding with a audio bitrate of 128kBit and an video bitrate of 1307kBit should give u a file size of 200MB (and always use the same filters in 1st and 2nd pass)

Cu Selur

Ps.: btw. I prefer DBGT ;)

[manono]

Hey Awatef-You're right. The only DBZ I've seen is what my boy watches on TV, which in my opinion is just godawful. I didn't know there was any other kind, so I apologize to you.

And since you've just about solved the bitrate mystery, I say good work. And don't you find it more fun to be courteous and friendly? When you are, you're almost likeable. ;)

Selur-

but u also mentioned that u did a "No, No !" by using different filters in 2nd and 1st pass,...

Yep-I freely admit it. But it's only a problem with file size when I've saturated the bitrate. When I'm fooling around with the slow SSHiQ, I'll be damned if I'm going to run the first pass over again when I change a setting, or if I decide to put on TemporalSoften2 because the video is pixelated, especially when full length movies are involved.

Nice talking to you guys.

[Dreassica]

EDIT!!!

I found it, stupid stupid me!!

I looked at the difference without adding the vbr mp3 file first using nandub's direct stream. It was 160 first but after adding the mp3 windows reports a av. bitrate of 178, strange!!
U can yell at me now if u want! (bangs head against the wall ):( :(