DVD2SVCD: CCE Advanced question(s) ...

[JoeB]

quick background:

I started creating SVCD's about 1.5-2 years ago with CCD 2.25 of old VHS home movies. After running intensive tests between CCE and TMPGEnc, I decided to scrub the idea and wait for DVD because of the importance of these videos.

9 months later (i.e. last week) I decided to once again try on SVCD (now that it matured a bit more with such a great tool!) This time, I'm "backing up" star trek TNG episodes from DVD.. so I have less problems with a bad source.

Here's my question(s) :

1) I use the following settings: (Mind you I don't care about size, quality is the only thing that matters)

bitrate: 2496 max
Min: 1200
Max avg: 2230
Audio 224 down to 44.1 to make it 100% SVCD compliant (for people that borrow my CD's)

Encoder: CCE 2.50
Multipass VBR : 4 (Used 3 many months ago.. and don't notice a difference, but my 1Ghz PIII with 360+ MB of RAM just flies!)
anti noise - not used
Image quality priority - 0
Field order - automatic
Advanced settings - nothing checked
DC precision - 10
No subtitles since both my Alpine 343 and 444 can't play them.


Well, using the above settings, the quality is great, and I never get any blocks.. even in extremly fast moving action scenes!

but when I compared the SVCD (~45 mins fit on an 80min CD) to the DVD, I noticed the following:

- colors are a bit darker (not as bright)
- Edges not as sharp

Can anything be done?? Or is this the limitation of SVCD??

2) When I enabled the following:

Anti-noise filter = 2
Image Quality Priority = 17
Linear Quantizer scale on

I noticed that the quality of the actual picture got worse! More blury (compared via picture captures in PowerDVD XP and compared in Photoshop)

Can anybody explain what "Image Quality Priority" is and what the best setting is??

3) How do I set DVD2SVCD so that it doesn't increase the audio of the source!? All my rips sound louder on the TV that the original (I have Autodetect Azid gain set)

4) Anybody tried to play back their SVCD's in a doulby system? I got a 5.1 system (not dolby digital, but dolby pro logic) and I can hear background noise on the rear speaker.. like the DVD, but unlike the DVD, I can also hear the voices of the actors - except all muffled - in the rear speakers! the DVD doesn't have this problem..

Thanks..

JoeB

[markrb]

For the best explanation of Image Quality Priority you are better off downloading the CCE manual which is on it's home page. It goes into some detail on most of the options you asked about. The current manual is on 2.64, but most of the settings apply to 2.5. I often times find myself reading it.

The CCE manual does a good job explaining what Image Quality Priority is so I will just say what I use.

For most movies I prefer a higher setting then 17. Most slow moving dramas get 22-24 and in the case of high action I drop it to 17-20.

0 IMO is a very bad setting.

For the most part the blurry image compared to the DVD is very normal. You are re-encoding a video at about 1/4 the original rate. To compensate I use the Sharpen filter that is part of Avisynth. Depending on the movie I will use .3-.6 as a setting and mostly it's a guess. This tends to remove the blur that seems like a light haze across the screen. It isn't perfect and there is a trade off with added noise so I up the CCE noise filter to about 12. It also slows encoding down by about 35%.

As for you high Min rate I think this is too high. It forces CCE to use more bits when they are not needed and has to compensate by not using more in scenes that could better use them. I would drop it to at least 800 if not 500 or the default of 300. Why waste bits on black screens when you don't have to.

I have not noticed movies getting darker by encoding, but I want to lighten them up for my own reasons. You have two choices. The first and easiest is the Luminance settings on the DVD2AVI tab. I don't use that method, but I hear it works well. The other is to manually add the Tweak Filter by Donald Graft. With it you can adjust the contrast and brightness with very little hit in speed. Check out the Avisynth forum and Donald's homepage for more info.

As for audio. I have a complete Dolby Pro Logic II setup and I hear everyone where they are suppose to be.

Make sure you are using the most current version of DVD2SVCD at all times. Whenever there is a new release of the audio encoding software it is included in the new build. There have been some major jumps in audio quality in the last few versions.

For more info there are a few threads in the advanced forum you should read. Just look through the old posts I am sure you will find some of interest. Don't forget to get that CCE manual it's in pdf format on the CCE homepage.

Mark

[JoeB]

markrb:

Thanks for your great reply.. Can't wait to get home and try out the new settings..

I have another question for you:

I want to add a title to the 4:3 video stream, and can't figure out for the life of me the correct image size of the JPG!

I finally found that a 640x480 image fits fine without my DVD adding the black lines, but it crops about 10-15 pixels all around! (DV-444)

What is the best image size for the title screen??

Thanks.

JoeB

[markrb]

I would love to be able to help beyond saying do a search since it has been covered before, but I do not use anything but the IMDB cover page that DVD2SVCD downloads.

Check here and in the basics forum. Use the search function. I know they talked about specific size etc...

Mark

[Labersack]

If size doesn't matter and you want to have the best quality, it is better (and much faster, too) to use CBR with a bitrate of about 2600.

[markrb]

If your player supports it of course.

I have two players. One can only play to a max of 2500. The other can play to a huge max of 5500. Guess which one I make SVCD's for. :D

Mark

[mrbass]

Can we get some beta testers....to try these settings. It has been posted that the default for DVD should be DC 8 not 10 which is the default and also uncheck linear quantizer scale since it's for mpeg-1 and not mpeg-2. I'll be doing my own tests but I believe these are correct.

see the post by stanwebber explaining 'image quality' distribution. He has some really good points.
http://forum.vcdhelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=92188

[gerti67]

Hi there,

with the linear quantizer scale option I did quite a few tests in the past because of DVD2SVCD's default setting to have it turned on and the CCE manual saying it is better turned off for MPEG2 so I was confused and examined the same chapters/movies with this setting turned on and off.

And from my examination and from my understanding of the whole MPEG2 format my opinion on that is the following:

Yes, it's true MPEG2 should be used with non-linear quantizer scale to follow the specs and suggestions from the experts - but if you look at the MPEG2 with BitrateViewer or the built in CCE advanced tools you will see that the quantization scale is a bit smoother and lower overall when using a linear quantization scale and my personal opinion on that is that with the low bitrates a SVCD uses it is the better setting as it keeps the quantization scale lower resulting in a better quality (if you base that on the statement a lower quantization means better picture quality).

But with a DVD this is a totally different thing because forcing a linear quantizer scale would force the quantizer to use a higher quantization than needed with the most scenes of a movie. And with a non-linear setting the quantizer could possibly better follow the higher bitrate changes that occur with a DVD.

This is what I extract from the (mathematical) definitions of "linear" and "non-linear" when it comes to discussion and descriptions about graphs and curves.

But this is just my opinion and my theory on that based upon my testings on that topic. I'm far from being an expert on the whole MPEG2 details. But if you examine for example a few DVDs with bitrate viewer you will see that even the studios produce their DVDs with a linear quantization scale - and those are not only a few exceptions this happens quite often from my experience.

Greetings,
Gerti

[markrb]

I cannot say my tests were nearly as complete or scientific as gerti67's, but I did several chapters with and without linear quantizer scale and I could see no difference at all.

I asked others to see what they thought and chainsaw135 came to the same conclusion as I did.

I never checked the videos with Bitrate viewer or anything, but my eyes.

Kedirekin was the first one I remember to have done real tests in this forum on Image Quality Priority. Based on his settings of never using anything lower then 20 and usually higher I started my own tests. In slow drama's I found the mosquito noise around people to diminish if I use a higher setting. In action movies I felt that a higher number increased the potential for blocks. So I lower the number down. I tend to use the default of 17 very rarely. I find I use 20-24 far more often.

Mark

[mrbass]

ok so perhaps like gerti67 says the linear quantizer has little if any effect...now on to the DC 8 testing rather than DC 10

[JoeB]

I too would like what gives the best image quality..

DC 8, DC 10, Auto DC ???

JoeB