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Tza
14th May 2002, 03:44
A few of you are probably wondering why I'm going to so much effort to do things that, honestly, have already been done.

There are actually several answers, but the one I want to focus on here is Closed Source Software.

Now, I don't feel that closed source software is inherently wrong. I know that many people have put in their own time and effort to make software that they give away for free. This is to be commended. The problem I have with it is that when something goes wrong with that software, I can't fix it. This is an especially critical problem on small, single developer projects as the developer may disappear tomorrow, or not have enough free time to fix a bug.

So, when I write tools I purposefully avoid using closed source software whenever practical. Having control of both applications allows me to quickly ascertain where a bug is, and to more easily debug the problem. Debugging IPC when you have control over only one application WILL be strenuous and wasteful. It's even worse if there are more than two applications involved.

Please, when writing software based on closed source software, take a moment to consider if there is a reasonable alternative. Otherwise, you may be stuck with it for better or for worse.

jonny
15th May 2002, 19:03
Hi

I can tell you my little experience.

I've made available the source code of DivX5Enc until 1.03.
A guy, traslating a lot of my code in VB, has came out with an identical app, adding only one option.

After this i've decided to stop giving the source.

What you say is ok. But sometime have strange effect... as you can see.

Cheers
jonny

Tza
15th May 2002, 20:00
Well, adding features is the main point of open source, but it would have been nicer to add the feature to your program instead of making a knockoff. He should have included your name in the credits at least.

Taking credit for your work is lame, but it doesn't really hurt you when that happens.

jonny
15th May 2002, 22:18
Anyway now it's all ok :)

I think one day i'll give out the code, but surely only if i decide to stop the development.

divxdede
16th May 2002, 10:11
Me i like the limited-open source !! what is it for me ?
so, if a man want help you on a project or want join a project then i access to the source freely and he can work on it for help the development !!! but let source acess to everybody is not always a good options !

jonny
16th May 2002, 10:35
I 100% agree.

esby
24th May 2002, 08:16
I think that closed source has its use like open as its...

But i think that the main problem is what do you want to do with your software:
- is it for a commercial use?
- is it for a personal use ...
- ... just for fun ...
- is it for an urgent need ?
( like coding an litle application to debug the tools you are building ...)
- (...)

In some cases closed source is better, like for stability of the initial code, preservation of 'copyright' ( since the source code is not available , there are lesser risks of viewing coming out concurrency applications cloned on your code ...)
But in some cases , opensource have avdvantages like different ways of coding and answering the problem ( and since the one you ll find alone is perhaps not the best ...)

personnaly i dont mind giving my code once an application is finished
as long the code is my property (which means that i have the right to give it away ...) and as long it doesnt matter me ... ;)

esby

dragongodz
27th May 2002, 05:16
to see the downside of open source go to the general forum and read the post "people ripping people: part 2 ,DVDx vs backup dvd".

i think this shows what some people do with open source and why some programmers dont want to give out their hard work.

Darksoul71
30th May 2002, 10:07
Hi all !

I agree that open source has some serious problems. People messing around in your code or may be (as in the DVDx modification case) just changing the title.

But closed software (esp. free once) has also itīs problems:
What if Programmer (a) writes a cool app that all peoples use. He refuses to release the source code. After a while he gets bored by working on his app. He neither does update his weppage, nor reply to e-mails. Great: The app just somewhat "dies" because no1 has a solid base to develop and would have to start from scratch. :(

If someone takes your program (that is well know in the comunity) and releases it with a new name: Hey, what do you loose ? Your ego ? Your reputation ?

I think you know your programming skills by yourself. So any moron just copying your code canīt really hurt you, or ?

Iīve made a posting in the GKnot forum a while ago asking Wef to make GKnot Open Source. He refused mainly because there is a lot of other code inside GKnot. I can accept that but for other apps I donīt accept that.

To make a long thing short: What really disturbs me on free closed source software is mainly the fact that another freeware programmer out there has to "reivent the wheel" for a problem if source code isnīt available.

My question to the fellow programmers on the board:
If youīve worked on a problem for a long time, wouldnīt you wish someone else has solved this problem before ? Wouldnīt you be happy to take a chunk of code from someone else and just fit it to your program ?

Or would you love to make your brain and your fingers bleed and waste your time on something that has been solved before ?

I aggree that there are big problems and possible dangers in releasing open source but I think that the positive aspects are bigger.

Also a lot of tools are made for personal use and just shared with the community. So it doesnīt really hurt to see a small personal tool floating around with another name. For something bigger like DVDx that is another case.

just my 2 cents (european ones of course :))

-D$

Darksoul71
30th May 2002, 10:30
Ah, forgot to add some other thing:
Have you ever thought about all the cool apps that wouldnīt be possible without open source ?
Would BeSweet available if there wouldnīt be LAME, Azid, etc sources available ?
Would GKnot (and all other AVISynth based apps) work without open source code from AVISynth, MPEG2DEC.DLL, etc.

This are just a few examples but I think you know what I talk about.
BTW: I donīt like this "limited open souce" divxdede talks about.

@divxdede: How do you judge if someone "deserves" your code ?
If he wantīs to participate on the project ?
If he "just wantīs to have a look at" ?

That is what I mean. If the source is always included with your app (as I do in most cases) anyone can easily have a quick look at.

I can only speak for me as a developer but I often end up using a tool and ask myself: Hey, how did they do this. With open source I can have a look by myself. With closed source this is not possible.

Have a look at Linux and you can easily see to where OpenSource can lead. Yes, I know about the many OS projects that died because of no interest but I can also point out a lot of projects that really work (Apache, Samba, etc).

Beside all the Open-Vs-Closed stuff you should really ask yourself what the REAL resource of the Freeware community is: Itīs not money like in commercial software companies. Itīs manpower or better working time. We all spent a lot of hours developing tool for free. So why slowing each other down with closed software ? If you canīt agree to open source. OK, your opinion but for me this is sometimes like putting large amounts of money to your bank account: Itīs just not there to float around as usually needed.

-D$

-D$

divxdede
30th May 2002, 10:55
>>> BTW: I donīt like this "limited open souce" divxdede talks about.
ok it's your right ;)

@divxdede: How do you judge if someone "deserves" your code ?
If he wantīs to participate on the project ?
If he "just wantīs to have a look at" ?

If he ask me, i give the source, he must only send an e-mail,
So, few days, a student ask me source codes of one of my app,
i accept to do it, (i will send it in 1, or 2 weeks, the time to finish the current release). But i agree with you, when a developper stop a closed-source project, i think that at this point he must be put it in open-source !! it's i will do when i will stop the developpement of my personals apps.

jonny
30th May 2002, 11:13
Darksoul71, i think you are a correct person.

But you know, the world is full of NOT correct persons.

I like the "limited source" idea too (and a full source code release after stopping the project).

I think is better to decide by myself if i want to share info / help someone.

Ookami
30th May 2002, 18:23
I think we should clarify our terms a bit. Because, open source does not automaticly means GPL... We have dozens of licenses out there and even programmers who release their code without any license.

Then we have different kinds of closed source.

And so on.

You can read, for example, the thoughts of Avery Lee why he released VirtualDub as GPL.

And Dragongodz, you have to realize that DVDx would have never existed in the first place if programmers like Maven, Brent Beyeler etc. would not release their source for everyone!

So we have to look it from a broader perspective.

Cheers,

Mijo.

dragongodz
31st May 2002, 05:44
i think i need to clarify things a bit. at no point have i said i dont like open source. quite the oppasite. i have stated several times that without open source i couldnt have become involved with something like DVDx and so fixs i have done (and sent to Jean Luc) etc may not have been fixed to later version. and you are right in saying that without the other programs being open source then something like DVDx may have never existed aswell.
all i said above was to look at the other post in the general area to see the down side of open source. it is there and its not just someone releasing a modified version without acknowledging its source. that would be low but for a commercial company to sell your program is something else. its not just the programmers pride or work thats being ripped off but also the poor people who buy it simply because they may be new to the dvd/video area and not know about all the free software.

again i state for the record, i love open source. i think it is like a bed of roses though. it can be nice to lay on but you do have to watch out for the pricks. (sorry if that offends anyone)

chemmajik
31st May 2002, 23:19
Here's something I have noticed, when a software package has alot of excitement going & interest, the source gets released a year later when the interest has faded to black or a competitor has arisen. Timing is critical, because some projects can take a long time to understand especially if it is complex. It might take 3months to really understand how you could improve it, it maybe to late or nonstandard.

Also other issue's can have effects of when code is released example a project started on VisC5, then Visc6, then cpu optimized with assembly, then there is Vis.net. It can get expensive for a programmer to keep up. Then you have IntelCompiler issues, because the source wont compile if you don't have a SSE2 compiler. So fair warning to those who decide to jump in, so be prepared for the worst.