DVD2SVCD - Standalone DVD player - jerky / chopped video playback

[avdmb]

Like many people on this forum, I have problems playing back SVCDs on my standalone DVD player (Pioneer DV-444 in my case). I wanted to share my experiments in order to solve this problem, and to verify some statements from other posts on this forum. I exclusively used DVD2SVCD (with sometimes a manual bypass) : after extensive reading of the last 6 months posts on various forums, I believe it is the best solution to SVCD burning (soon VCD apparently) : extremely easy to use, powerful (use CCE and TMPGEnc, the best encoders today), flexible, robust (no bug/crash for me until now). In summary, I love it.


1) Whole video encoding
I encoded a 1h56' video movie to fit on 2 800 MB CDs :
. PIII-450, 192 MB PC100 SDRAM, Windows XP Pro, Seagate 40 GB 5400 RPM disk drive
. DVD2SVCD standard settings, with bitrates : min 600, max 2520, max avg 2220, 1 audio 224; bilinear resize; permanent subtitles (1).
. burning with Nero 5.5.7.2.

Encoding with CCE 2.50 (VBR 4 passes) took 24h30', with avg bitrate 1640. The encoded MPEG was playing fine on PowerDVD XP, but as many people, I got jerky / chopped video, especially on low motion parts of the movie. In some scenes, video was freezing 1 sec every 4-5 seconds, with audio completely out of sync.

I used Bitrate Viewer to analyze the video stream. I noticed that max bitrate was 2648, and many parts of the movie were well below 600 (some below 300). I must say that like other people in this forum (e.g. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20709), I have a moderate confidence in Bitrate Viewer. For example, as the DVD2SVCD option "warn is bitrate is above SVCD spec" is checked, I don't understand why it would not warn when combined bitrate is 2648+224.

Nevertheless, I read somewhere else (http://www.planetenumerique.com/php...1299&forum=17&4) that my issue with DV-444 playback was linked to player unable to handle bitrate lower than 600, that indeed even with minimum bitrate set to 600 CCE would drop below and that TMPGEnc had a "enable padding" option to guarantee that bitrate would never drop below. I therefore started DVD2SVCD with TMPGENc Plus 2.53 With VBR 2 passes ... and stopped it after 10 hours, given the fact that estimated encoding time was 74 hours (3 times CCE 2.50). I thereafter concentrated on only 1 chapter showing the jerky/chopped video issue, in order to reduce trial time.


2) 1 chapter encoding (2'23" video).
I made several tests with DVD2SVCD. In order to use the TMPGEnc "enable padding" option, I did the following :
. first run DVD2SVCD until start of TMPGEnc, than cancelled the job.
. run TMPGEnc in standalone, load the template, check "enable padding" option, save the template (and check it is well so !).
. run DVD2SVCD again, use the recover option and complete the job.

All tests were done with DVD2SVCD standard settings, with bitrates : min 600, max 2520, max avg 900 (to force low bitrate), 1 audio 224; bilinear resize; permanent subtitles (1). For CCE : VBR 4 passes, For TMPGEnc : VBR 2 passes. Results for encoding time were :
. CCE 2.50 : 30 ' (max speed 0.420). Test was done for p*tch*d version and trial version (with blue logo) as some people claim that min bitrate issue is with p*tch*d version.
. CCE 2.62 : 47' (max speed 0.260).
. TMPGEnc 2.53 Plus : 1h06'. Test was done with standard DVD2SVCD ("enable padding" not checked) and workaround to enable padding.

With all the tests, Bitrate Viewer showed that bitrate remained well within the set limits (always well above 600, below 2520). But ALL versions had the problem of jerky / chopped video on my standalone player. My partial conclusions were :
. jerky / chopped video issue on standalone player is not better with newest versions of CCE or TMPGEnc -> I can keep the fastest CCE 2.50.
. even complying with a minimum bitrate of 600 does not guarantee that it will work. A workaround can be to impose bitrate well above 600 (1150 or 1200 as suggested in other posts), but a definitive solution to the jerky / chopped video has to be found somewhere else.

3) Multiplexing.
In many other posts, people claim to have partially/fully solved the problem, always related to other multiplexing methods :
. In http://www.planetenumerique.com/php...1299&forum=17&4, people don't use DVD2SVCD, and have success with the TMPGEnc muxer apparently in combination with min bitrate 600 and padding option.
. In http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8039, gerty67 has success by playing with the bbMPEG options : audio/video delay (some success with trial and error) and even better the "~DVD" option.
. In http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21104, Maras and Sekatom have solved the problem using I-Author muxer.

I have not been able to try gerty67 method, as I have not found the bbMPEG advanced settings tab in DVD2SVCD (did I miss something ? If somebody can give a detailed way on how to do it, thanks in advance). I tried Maras method with I-Author in the following way :
. use DVD2SVCD standard settings, with bitrates : min 600, max 2400, max avg 900 (to force low bitrate), 1 audio 224; bilinear resize; permanent subtitles (1). CCE 2.50 encoder.
. When finished, I manually run the I-author MPEGII Multiplexer only (not the complete program) which is fairly easy to use :
- input video : Encoded_Video_CCE_PAL.mpv
- input audio : Encoded_audio_1.mp2
- "ps format" checked (important to get MPEG2 compatible output)
. Rename the output file ENCODED_VIDEO_CCE_PAL.ps into bbMPEG_Muxed_File00.mpg.
. Edit dvd2svcd_log.txt, copy the last command in the file, paste in the DOS run window and execute.

The resulting image file was slightly bigger than with bbMPEG (~1 %). For complete movies, either use gerty67 suggestion (790 MB instead of 800 MB for CD size setting) or overburn if your burner can do it. Result was :
. Both played perfectly on PowerDVD.
. Original DVD2SVCD (with bbMPEG) movie was jerky/chopped as usual.
. Movie muxed with I-Author was playing perfectly on my pioneer ! Thanks Maras and Sekatom.

I did a last trial with very low bitrate, DVD2SVCD standard settings, with bitrates : min 300, max 2400, max avg 600, 1 audio 224; bilinear resize; permanent subtitles (1). CCE 2.50 encoder.
. Bitrate Viewer gave resulting output with min bitrate down to 396.
. movie muxed with I-Author played perfectly on my pioneer (no jerkiness, of course degraded video quality).
. movie from DVD2SVCD played perfectly on PowerDVD. Movie muxed with I-Author has a few freezing images when played on PowerDVD.
This last effect (OK on standalone DVD player, NOK on software DVD player and vice versa) is also mentioned by other people playing with bbMPEG settings. It can well be an issue with my video card (old ATI rage pro).

By the way, CCE encoding time was always independent on bitrate settings.

In conclusion (so far) :
. With a few manual tweaks, it is possible to use DVD2SVCD to make SVCDs compatible with standalone DVD players.
. Jerky / chopping video on standalone DVD players is more an issue with muxing than with minimum bitrate.
. At very low bitrates (< 600), it becomes difficult to mux a movie that will play flawlessly on both standalone and software DVD players. Further work with bbMPEG settings will maybe provide a solution to this.

I don't know if I-Author muxing can work in case of multiple CD movies (I understood not from a few posts, but am not sure). I will further test this.

Now, after these empirical investigation, I am curious to read a technical explanation of the muxing process and issues. Maybe the bbMPEG author can give a definitive answer to this, together with the best settings in order to avoid the standalone DVD player issue with jerky / chopped video.

[anarco]

thanks for your experiments

I tested a clip yesterday muxed with TMPGenc it played well on the
444. Though no chapters in this test.

I couldn´t solve the multi-disc problem yet either but as you mentioned the PS parameter in i-author is relevant for this then there might be a solution, as this:

For DivX movies I cut the avi with VDUB before encoding in two pieces, this certainly would work with DVD rips too if there is some kind of VOB cutter (there is one but I think its only cutting 1 file at once, not a series).

Sadly cutting the VOB before would mess up the chapter information.

Then I-author muxing would be required for bilingual movies (I don´t know yet why it is not offering mp2 input for the second audio) but
sadly i-author stops after a certain size (even with applied discsize fix) if there is a workaround for this the generated mpeg (PS parameter checked) may be loadable by tmpgenc and be cutted there.

To sum it up, we either need a VOB cutter and think about something to automatize the chapter thing or we get i-author to allow the creation of 1,5 GB mpegs :-/

[gerti67]

Hi avdmb,

really good post! A big "thumbs up" for that. :)

I have not been able to try gerty67 method, as I have not found the bbMPEG advanced settings tab in DVD2SVCD (did I miss something ? You must use the latest version 1.0.8 Build 1 and set the "DVD2SVCD level" to "Advanced" in "Misc." tab - then you will have some "Advanced Settings" in "bbMPEG" tab also.

What I couldn't get from your post is - did you always use a burned SVCD for testing with the software player or did you play the MPEG or the image with the Daemon-Tools?

In addition to your experiments - have you considered the burning step to introduce jerky playback also? For quite some people this has also caused some jerky playback. Nero is not the best solution to burn a SVCD - have you already tried the "Foolproove way" from the sticky in the basic forum.

Or, like I do - use VCDEasy 1.0.9 for burning the SVCDs - works like a charm if it supports your burner.

Also, I have a Toshiba standalone with a little picky drive - and if I use some cheap CD-R(W) media with it I also get jerky playback - but this shouldn't be the case with your PC as these drives usually do a better job concerning error correction.

There once was at least one guy in the SVCD forum IIRC that got his problems solved (jerky playback) when using good media (Verbatim DataLife Plus, Kodak, Mitsui, ...) - so this could apply to your problem also - if you not already considered that point.

Greetings,
Gerti

[avdmb]

Hi Gerty67,

Thanks for your feedback. I thought I made exhaustive analysis of all parameters that could be problematic, but reading your comments, I realize I am only a poor newbie. I even don't know how to insert your quotes in this answer !

1) I indeed missed something about Advanced DVD2SVCD settings. Thanks for the tip, I will further make experiments with bbMPEG.

2) I never used a burned SVCD to make tests with the software DVD player (PowerDVD XP). I always tested with the MPEG file, even not the image mounted on Daemon Tools.

3) No I am not part of the 5750 people who had read the very interesting post from DDog about foolproof way to burn a SVCD to a disk. Done now, and I will follow these instructions in the future to see if there is an effect.

4) I have not considered the burning process / media quality in analysing my problem. Reasons are :
. I never faced in the past such issues with my Plex24, Nero and normal audio/data CDs. When I had problems, it was "nothing works".
. I first burned a SVCD example I downloaded from vcdhelp.com, and it worked like a charm on my Pioneer. Then, I burned my first SVCD and faced the video jerkiness. Browsing all forums about this kind of issues, I noticed several people faced exactly the same kind of issue with low bitrate. Therefore, I focused on this problem rather than burning process / media.

In the end, my last 2 tests with very low bitrate and muxing with bbMPEG or I-Author tends to prove that it was indeed not an issue with burning / media.

The video jerkiness issue I have is quite typical (from what I read from other posts). Audio plays smoothly, and from time to time, especially on low motion parts, video is freezing for 1 sec, then video plays normally but out of sync, then recovers versus audio and phenomenon restarts a few seconds later. In higher motion parts, there is no problem at all (at least it is my perception). When playing the movie several times, the hang doesn't necessarily happen at exactly the same places (which I believe would be the case if it was an issue with the burned media).

Thanks a lot for your advises : I will for sure use them in my further tests.

[djc]

Originally posted by avdmb



In the end, my last 2 tests with very low bitrate and muxing with bbMPEG or I-Author tends to prove that it was indeed not an issue with burning / media.

The video jerkiness issue I have is quite typical (from what I read from other posts). Audio plays smoothly, and from time to time, especially on low motion parts, video is freezing for 1 sec, then video plays normally but out of sync, then recovers versus audio and phenomenon restarts a few seconds later. In higher motion parts, there is no problem at all (at least it is my perception). When playing the movie several times, the hang doesn't necessarily happen at exactly the same places (which I believe would be the case if it was an issue with the burned media).





Hello there.


I also have this "jerkyness" problem with my Pioneer 444 and also a older SONY of a friend of mine. The problem becomes more visible when you try to encode fast action movies. Yesterday i converted Fast and Furious, and the result was excellent BUT some jerkyness is present.

My settings: CCE VBR, 6 passes, Max 2530, min 1400, min avg 1600, max avg 2230, antinoise 2, no smooth, bicubic .60.

Then i viewed the mpgs with bitrate viewer, and i saw: Peak 2868 !, avg 1850. The low part was ok. This "2878" shouldn't happen! Or i'm wrong ?


djc

[anarco]

if you encounter general jerkyness especially on high-action scenes it is probably a too high bitrate as you already found out

try to stay at total: <=2600

I´m not sure why you get rates above 2770 but as some guys mentioned in other posts CCE isn´t that reliable when it comes to bitrate limitations. However the bitrate viewer could be wrong too...

[avdmb]

Yesterday, I redid all tests following Gerti67 advise, and tried the ~DVD option in bbMPEG. Basically, these tests confirm the previous results. Hereafter details and conclusions.

. PIII-450, 192 MB PC100 SDRAM, Windows XP Pro, Seagate 40 GB 5400 RPM disk drive
. 1 chapter encoding (2'23" video).
. DVD2SVCD ver. 1.0.8 build1.
. use DVD2SVCD standard settings, with bitrates : min 600 (resp. 300), max 2400, max avg 900 (resp. 600) (to force low bitrate), 1 audio 224; bilinear resize; permanent subtitles (1). CCE 2.50 encoder (VBR 4 passes).
. mounting the image with Daemon tools, burning with Plex 2410A @ 4x, with Nero 5.5.7.2 (CD copy on the fly).
. 2 different TDK 700 MB CD-RW 10x, used randomly for the different tests.
. Software DVD player : latest version of PowerDVD XP.
. Standalone DVD player : Pioneer DV-444.

I made 2 * 3 tests :
1) min600 : bitrates min 600, max 2400, max avg 900.
2) min300 : bitrates min 600, max 2400, max avg 600. After encoding, Bitrate Viewer reports bitrate going down to 394.

a) DVD2SVCD : 1 click run of DVD2SVCD with above options.
b) ~DVD : same than a), with ~DVD option selected in DVD2SVCD advanced settings bbMPEG tab (settings are by default identical to SVCD option, with additional "Align sequence header" ticked).
c) I-Author : same than a), with output remuxed with I-Author as described in the first post of this thread.

I analyzed the following results :
. MPEG size : size of the generated MPEG file.
. PowerDVD image : result viewing the image file mounted with Daemon tools on PowerDVD XP.
. PowerDVD CD : result viewing the burned CD on PowerDVD XP.
. Pioneer : result viewing the burned CD on Pioneer DV-444

Raw results : MPEG size PowerDVD image PowerDVD CD Pioneer
min600, DVD2SVCD 19775 OK OK issue 2
min600, ~DVD 20308 OK OK issue 2
min600, I-Author ~20000 issue 1 (1x) issue 1 (1x) OK
min300, DVD2SVCD 14271 OK OK issue 2
min300, ~DVD 14312 OK OK issue 2
min300, I-Author 14804 issue 1 issue 1 OK

Issue 1 : video freezes several times (only once with min600) during playback, but when restarting is still in sync with audio.
Issue 2 : video freezes several times during playback. When restarting, is often out of sync with audio.

Conclusions :
. Reported issue while playing back DVD2SVCD generated SVCD with low bitrate on standalone player (Pioneer DV-444) is not linked to burning process / CD quality.
. using the ~DVD option in DVD2SVCD advanced options for bbMPEG does not solve the problem on Pioneer DV-444. Created MPEG file size is +/- 3 % bigger than with standard SVCD setting.
. using I-Author muxing solves issue2 on Standalone DVD player (Pioneer DV-444) but creates issue 1 while playing with Software DVD player (PowerDVD XP), this either with mounted image or burned CD.
. until now, there is no solution found that works OK on both standalone and software DVD player.

I will further investigate. First by encoding the whole movie and see if I-Author method is working on multiple CDs. Second by trying to learn more using MPEGanalizzatore. Third by playing with different bbMPEG options (any hint welcome).

I read on some other posts that the issue with low bitrate on software DVD player is linked to fast bitrate transitions from low to high, while on DVD players it is linked to video buffer filling. Maybe a guru in this forum can give a definitive explanation to this and propose the ultimate bbMPEG settings to resolve all issues (I-Author muxer is not parameterizable).

[djc]

Originally posted by avdmb
Conclusions :
. Reported issue while playing back DVD2SVCD generated SVCD with low bitrate on standalone player (Pioneer DV-444) is not linked to burning process / CD quality.
. using the ~DVD option in DVD2SVCD advanced options for bbMPEG does not solve the problem on Pioneer DV-444. Created MPEG file size is +/- 3 % bigger than with standard SVCD setting.
. using I-Author muxing solves issue2 on Standalone DVD player (Pioneer DV-444) but creates issue 1 while playing with Software DVD player (PowerDVD XP), this either with mounted image or burned CD.
. until now, there is no solution found that works OK on both standalone and software DVD player.

I will further investigate. First by encoding the whole movie and see if I-Author method is working on multiple CDs. Second by trying to learn more using MPEGanalizzatore. Third by playing with different bbMPEG options (any hint welcome).

I read on some other posts that the issue with low bitrate on software DVD player is linked to fast bitrate transitions from low to high, while on DVD players it is linked to video buffer filling. Maybe a guru in this forum can give a definitive explanation to this and propose the ultimate bbMPEG settings to resolve all issues (I-Author muxer is not parameterizable).


Hello.


I can also verify that:

1) The burning speed doesn't seem to be related to this problem. Burning at 1x, 4x, and 8x, with Nero and CDRWIN didn't make ANY difference.

2) Media quality also didn't matter. Imation and TDK behave the very same.

3) Not letting CCE go down on very low bitrates (less than 700-800) DID help a lot to the jerkyness. I wish i could limit also the high range and test.

4) I try desperately to find I-Author to test things, but it seems impossible.

5) This problem doesn't happen only to Pioneers 444 (mine is European without progressive scan) but also to other players. So it is a global problem.


djc

[anarco]

since I still couldn´t find a reliable mpeg2 cutter I turned back to the divX -> sVCD conversion while splitting before encoding

for testing purposes about image creation I tried the following:


at first (probably the working way for all one-audio divX)

- split avi with vdub
- encoded with CCE (by using DVD/AVI2SVCD)
- muxed with tmpgenc
- let dvd2svcd continue to build the image with VCDXBuild (fixed chapters)
- image got created and is burnable with CDRWIN
> test in Pioneer DV 444 this evening

at second (attempt for all divX with two-audio)
note: I did the following only with one audio this time, if this turns out good I´ll try with two audio

- split avi with vdub
- encoded with CCE (by using DVD/AVI2SVCD)
- muxed with i-author
/ tried dvd2svcd continue to build the image with VCDXBuild -> FAILS
/ tried dvd2svcd continue to build the image with VCDImager -> FAILS

DVD2SVCD doesn´t offer I-author anymore
when trying to crash-continue (why?) so I continued manually...
(no chapters)

- .cif creation with i-author -> FAILS without limit remover fix
- .cif creation with fixed i-author -> works
- conversion width CDMage (track 1 setting: Mode2/2352) - looks good
using daemon tools
> burning and test in Pioneer this evening


so far... more this evening

a question to DVD2SVCD, why is using i-author not possible when crash-recovering ? did I delete some important file or something ? ;-/

[christian_stuppy]

Hi there,

I did a test with "I-Author" (I-Author 1.0 installed) as CD Image Creator.

This DVD2SVCD log file showed, that after cutting and muxing was performed by bbMPEG, there was a demux and a Muxing with I-Author Muxer again. I created a short CBR file with 300 average, first without I-Author as Image Creater and then with I-Author as Image creator. Second time, the playback was ok on my Pioneer 444...

Another thing: High Bitrates
I just played back Monster INC. without any problems. Bit Rate viewer showed values way over 3000... so if you can rely on the Bit Rate viewer, high Bits should not be a problem at all...

Later

Christian

[anarco]

now to the results of the tests, well to tell the truth to ONE result
the 1st one plays the video good in the DV 444 but the audio is stuttering = worse than the bbmuxed but that doesn´t mean anything special since I had to do a lot of fixing with the audio on this one
maybe I "fixed" too much... for the second thing I can´t tell cause my burner either just died some minutes ago or is too stupid to rewrite the RW, if thats the case the audio problem could be also caused by the "bad" media... well since my source material wasn´t too good for testing purposes anyway I´m now going to wait for the movie that showed definitive freezes and is currently in queue

when the images of that one are done I´ll try to burn on CD-R...
if this fails .. oh yeah I need a new burner *sigh*


-

addition...

okay now I rebooted after the encode and the burner still works
it just lock up cause of the erase.. however I tried the second encode
and it plays excellent on DV444 as far as I could see in the first 15 minutes

but now the other movie I wanted to test... it was currently on muxing stage when I woke up and what did I see ? DVD2SVCD uses VCDXBuild even if I ticked I-author... what is this ? :(

another addition:

quote dvd2svcd: "btw, if you still want to use I-Author, add this line in dvd2svcd.ini
ForceIAuthorSupport=1"

guess that explains the problem I had *sigh*

[avdmb]

Regarding possibility to use this method for 2 CDs, I ran DVD2SVCD on the full movie (30 hours) ! Separate audio + video files are created by bbMPEG for the 2 CDs. Afterwards, manual muxing with I-Author and manual Authoring + image creation with VCDXBuilder is no problem. Resulting mpeg files were even 1 % smaller than original ones.

Anyhow, seems I made my life too difficult. In thread http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...threadid=21104, Maras explained that selecting I-Author in the CD Image tab automatically use I-Author for muxing, authoring and image creation (together with CDmage). I faced the issue of DVD2SVCD stopping in I-Author reported by Maras in http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...threadid=22057. So further confirmation later.

Anarco, I can assure you that if you follow the manual steps explained in this thread (complete DVD2SVCD without I-Author KEEPING ALL INTERMEDIATE FILES, manual muxing with I-Author, manual finalization with VCDXBuild), it works for me with 2 CDs. I have not checked is if chapters are at the right place. I will anyhow further test the automatic way explained by Maras as I also prefer 1-click DVD2SVCD operation. The difference with the manual one I have used until now is that authoring and image creation is done with I-Author instead of VCXBuild.

More later.

[waddi]

I have a Pioneer 535 and use the following settings. See if it helps you.

Max. 2530
Min 300
Don't tick min average
Max average 2230

Drop audio to 192kps (although I have used 224 without any problems)

Just try 1 pass vbr as I noticed many of you with this problem are running at least 3-4 vbr passes.

If it works, then it could the high number of vbrs you're running.
(BTW I seldom make images and use Nero to burn)

[anarco]

Alright I made my final tests and they are successful !
(as far as I could see in the parts of the movie which freezed before)

The Settings were:


DVD2SVCD.ini add:
ForceIAuthorSupport=1 (if I don´t set this, it switches to VCDXBuild on its own while processing :(( )

16:9 encoded as 4:3 - shouldn´t matter actually but for you to know...

Movie length: 115 Min.

Bitrate

Max:2248
Min:1200
Min avg:1600 (careful with this setting ! it may cause a too big .mpv)
Max avg:2080

Audio 1: 224 Kbit
Audio 2: 64 Kbit (its chinese so I don´t care much for quality I don´t understand it anyway ;) )

after conversion I did the .cif to .bin manually (cause I´m not sure how to set the parameters for CDMage and if DVD2SVCD sets them already as they should)

so opening CDMage,
First Track to Mode2/2352 and go

then burning with Nero (yeah I know CDRWin is more reliable but this seems to actually be a burner issue, my old Yamaha 4260 does this well with Nero)

thats it !


The only two things which are interesting me now is, is there a reliable way to demux BBmpeg-muxed sVCD and remux them with I-Author ?

and

What actually is the difference between the BBmpeg and the I-Author mux, that causes the trouble ?

EDIT:
additional information for "Pioneer 535" users, a friend owns this thing and it doesn´t play precision/silvercircle CD-R above 76-77 minutes correctly (it just stops there) but it plays BBmpeg muxed, so if you want compatibility keep it 74 min CD-R ;-)

[avdmb]

Anarco,

Following Maras advise, use of I-Author muxer is integral part of DVD2SVCD while selecting I-Author in the CDmage part. I ran DVD2SVCD like that, simply putting the path for I-Author1.0 and CDmage in the appropriate DVD2SVCD menu boxes, and bingo, DVD2SVCD created the .cue and .bin files in 1 click.

I also faced similar issues than you before reaching this result. See the sticky post from DVD2SVCD, explaining the new features + bug corrections in the next release.

I don't know the answers to your last 2 questions, and am equally curious for the second.

Finally, I still have an issue with audio sync with my Pioneer DV-444. I posted it in an old thread ...and am sure we will soon meet there. Best regards from Belgium, avdmb