Multi-Channel Vorbis WinAmp testers needed

[MaTTeR]

Hi folks,

I thought a few of you might be interested in helping me test out Peter's (PP) new WinAmp plugin for multi-channel Vorbis files. The plugin can be found here. (http://www.blorp.com/~peter/in_vorbis.dll)

From Peter
(it's a test build, backup your old dll); i'm not sure if channel mapping on output is correct, at least downsampling 6channel to stereo should be working

For now we need to make sure the channel mapping is correct. Please post your feedback here.

[DSPguru]

the correct channel ordering should be : FL, FR, C, BL, BR, LFE
but i'm affraid everybody is using : FL, C, FR, BL, BR, LFE

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
<Vakor> By the way, we've basically decided that it's neccesary (because the format and decoders are frozen, other than bugfixes or optimisations in the decoder) to support channel mappings in libvorbis I/mapping 0 by hard-coding 1 channel=mono, 2 channels=stereo, 4 channels=quad, 5 channels = FL, FR, C, BL, BR, 6 channels = 5 channels plus sub.. Whilst a generic channel mapping would be nice, that'll have to wait for mapping 1 (vorbis II)

[MaTTeR]

@DSPguru

Are you sure about this? Uhg. Well if this is the case then I'm afraid I gave the wrong information to Peter. During my playback tests sometime ago the channel mapping sounded correct though:confused:

I seen an interesting thread at Everwicked's a month or so ago where a user was reporting that the channel mapping did not match the AC3. In theory it should match the AC3 right? Or am I missing something important?

[DSPguru]

the standard (classic) channel mapping is : FL, FR, C, LFE, BL, BR.
currently, OggDs mapping is : FL, C, FR, BL, BR, LFE .
on the next version, it will be compatible to vakor's statement : FL, FR, C, BL, BR, LFE .

what's the mapping of Peter's plugin ?

[MaTTeR]

Well here is the message I posted to Peter awhile back. I assume he is using this mapping that I gave him.


The default mapping in ogg files for 6 channels should be L,C,R,SL,SR,LFE. So if you have a 2ch output, it would be cool if you downmix them Dolby Surround like:


code:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lt=L+0.707*(C-SL-SR+LFE)
Rt=R+0.707*(C+SL+SR+LFE)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For four channel it would be like:
code:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lt=L+0.707*(C+LFE)
Rt=R+0.707*(C+LFE)
SLt=SL
SRt=SR


As you can see, if he is in fact using the info I gave him then it could be the channels are mapping incorrectly. I still don't understnad why I didn't hear this when I tested. I'll test some more tonight when I get home from work. grhhh
:angry:

[DSPguru]

Originally posted by DSPguru
currently, OggDs mapping is : FL, C, FR, BL, BR, LFE.is equal to :
Originally posted by MaTTeR
The default mapping in ogg files for 6 channels should be L,C,R,SL,SR,LFE.

but that's not the official mapping stated by Vakor :
Originally posted by ChristianHJW
<Vakor> By the way, we've basically decided that it's neccesary (because the format and decoders are frozen, other than bugfixes or optimisations in the decoder) to support channel mappings in libvorbis I/mapping 0 by hard-coding 1 channel=mono, 2 channels=stereo, 4 channels=quad, 5 channels = FL, FR, C, BL, BR, 6 channels = 5 channels plus sub.. Whilst a generic channel mapping would be nice, that'll have to wait for mapping 1 (vorbis II)

Tobias said he'll update OggDs' mapping, same goes for BeSweet & LittleWing, so.. maybe he should update his mapping too.

[MaTTeR]

Ok, thanks for the heads up on that from Vakor.

I've ask Peter to have a look at this thread so he can update the mappings accordingly.

[DarkAvenger]

Well L,C,R... is AC3 mapping, and the other is mp2 mc, but hey we should define mapping in the vorbis files as such.

[DarkAvenger]

BTW, PP's winamp plugin downmixes correctly to DS in 2ch mode. :) Now I must tell him ho to do it for DPL2.

I don't like Vakor's ch mapping defs for Vorbis. Too restricted, though for ch coupling it makes more sense to order L,R,C...

[DSPguru]

i don't like Vakor's ordering either.

i think channel ordering should be : L,R,C,LFE,SL,SR.

Default Channel Ordering (http://www.microsoft.com/hwdev/tech/audio/multichaud.asp)
The way to deterministically link channel numbers to speaker locations, thus providing consistency among multiple channel audio files, is to define the order in which the channels are laid out in the audio file. Several external standards define parts of the following master channel layout:

Front Left - FL
Front Right - FR
Front Center - FC
Low Frequency - LF
Back Left - BL
Back Right - BR
Front Left of Center - FLC
Front Right of Center - FRC
Back Center - BC
Side Left - SL
Side Right - SR
Top Center - TC
Top Front Left - TFL
Top Front Center - TFC
Top Front Right - TFR
Top Back Left - TBL
Top Back Center - TBC
Top Back Right - TBR

[MaTTeR]

Well since the two of you bring it up then I'm going to ask Vakor to have a look at this thread. Maybe the channel mappings should be reconsidered before they implement them.

[DSPguru]

very good :)

[MaTTeR]

I was sort of hoping someone else would have tested this by now:rolleyes:

Turtle Beach Santa Cruz: 5.1 analog out
WinXP
PIII 850

Here are my results which seem very strange-
2ch downmix
Source Speaker Destination
LF->LF
Center->RF
LFE->LF
RF->LF & LR
LS->LF & LR
RS->LF & LR

So it seems the center should be coming out of LF & RF but right now it's only RF. Can anyone else confirm this for me using Peter's latest plug?

Edit- I should note that I use the 5.1 DD AC3 file which names out all the channels for my testing. It keeps things a little more simple.

[zZzZzZz]

get this build (http://www.blorp.com/~peter/in_vorbis.dll), it should make most of you happy (DS2 mode is there, thanks to DarkAvenger; totally untested though). i still haven't received any useful feedback on 4- and 6-channel output (i have only old good sb128, i can't test it myself).

[DSPguru]

@Peter
so what's the channel ordering you're using.. :) ?

[MaTTeR]

Ok, here are my 4ch and 6ch results from your 2nd build. I'll test the 3rd build later on tonight.

6ch as is mode
Source->Speaker Destination
LF->LF
Center->RF & RS
RF->LS, LF, RF & RS
LS->LS, LF, RF & RS
RS->Nothing heard
LFE->LF (My AC3 test file says "LFE" in the LF speaker but it also rumbles the sub, I think this is normal then)

4ch downmix
Source->Speaker Destination
LF->LF & LS
Center->RF & RS
RF->LS, LF, RF & RS
RS->LS, LF, RF & RS
LS->LS, LF, RF & RS
LFE->LF (Again see my note for the 6ch mode)

Results were strange but going to try build 3 now.

EDIT/ i have only old good sb128 ahh and here I thought I had found another fellow anti-Creative person:D

[DarkAvenger]

@PP
That was fast man!

DS2 works nice on my DPL amp, but as I don't have DPL2, I cannot say if the rear seperation is there as intended. We should have some reports here shortly, though. :)

But I think you mapped the ch wrongly/ you swapped the names for it. HeadAC3he encodes L,C,R,.. but I had to select L,R,C to get correct mapping. You previous one worked correctly without any problems. I have a 2ch SB64PCI.

@MaTTeR

The voice "LFE" is encoded on L, but the low frequency is only on LFE, so it is normal to hear the voice from L, as LFE doesn't have enough bandwidth for that...

[zZzZzZz]

get it again, source mapping config options were inverted. i think fixing problems with 4/6channel output will require modified output plugins.

[DarkAvenger]

Yes, now it works as intended - for me.

[zZzZzZz]

install this (http://www.blorp.com/~peter/in_vorbis.dll) and this (http://www.blorp.com/~peter/out_ds.dll); report what you get with 4- and 6-channel output (use "remap 6 channels" option for 6-channel output).

[MaTTeR]

Using your last input/output build it appears as 2ch downmix works fine as long as the mapping is set to FL, C, FR, BL, BR and LFE.

6ch remapping-
LF->LF & LS
CNT->RF & RS
RF->RF & RS
RS->Faintly heard on RS & LS
LS->Faintly heard on RS & LS
LFE-> Not heard

I'm going to reencode my Vorbis test file at q5 just to make sure I'm getting full bitrate on all channels.

I also noticed no sound is heard if downmixing to mono.

[zZzZzZz]

updated, fixed downmix to mono. problems with 6-channel playback are an output plugin issue now, i'm passing all 6 channels to output correctly; what Winamp output plugins do you normally use (with correct results) for 5.1 playback ?
[edit] is your speaker setup configured correctly in device manager ?

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by zZzZzZz
what Winamp output plugins do you normally use (with correct results) for 5.1 playback ?

I've honestly never tried multi-channel playback in WinAmp until now. I suppose this could be done with a WAV file providing the plugins support it. For your testing I'm of course using the Experimental DirectSound plug though.

In regards to the device manager, it's manipulated by the sound card software. Most sound card software control the speaker setup in the device manger and can't be the other way around or nasty things happen. I'll do some more playing around today and see what I come up with.

[zZzZzZz]

geez, did you use the out_ds build i linked above or regular out_ds2 build then ?

[MaTTeR]

I actually used the last out_ds build you posted above. Before that I was using your latest out_ds from your web site.

[zZzZzZz]

does the test build produce different multichannel output than regular ones or is it the same ? in 6-channel mode i'm passing all 6 channels to windows drivers, you can do tests with 6-channel WAVs as well.

[MaTTeR]

*long sigh* Just spent well over an hour to try and figure out which combination of plugins and settings will properly map a 6ch WAV. No luck!:devil: So until I get that figured out it's pointless for me to test the mc Vorbis output.

MC Vorbis using the Direct Show maps fine as well as AC3 playback. So should I be using the Wave Out or Direct Sound plugin? Any special settings that I need to know?

does the test build produce different multichannel output than regular ones or is it the same ?
Both builds sound the same.

[rant]Almost 500 views on this thread and not 1 single person with a 5.1 setup has bothered testing?!?![end rant]

[ivan_alias]

I tried this...

However I never use winamp butI needed it for streaming ogg from the beeb) so I though I'd give it a go anyhow, I installed it, installed the plugin for vorbis and updated the 2 library files.

I have a ac3 test file that says 'left speaker, right speaker' etc... So use HeadAC3he to make a 6ch ogg and tried playing it back in winamp.

I couldn't get it to play. The ogg plays in media player, all be it only on the 2 front speakers, but not in winamp. The file seems to be moving along but it produces no sound at all.

I've tried a few settings in the plugin section to see if it was any of the settings but no luck so far.

I think if you want a few more people to try this out then perhaps write a small text guide on what exactly we need to do to get it working ?

One more thing is of course, that I never use winamp to watch my films so its all pretty academic really.

However, that said, good luck with it because it may be the 1st step along the line of replacing ac3 with multichannel vorbis and specifically for people like me with a 4 speaker setup this would be very cool indeed.

I'm sorry I could not help more.

[MaTTeR]

ivan_alias,

It's very strange you get no sound at all. Make sure your using analog outs on your soundcard and not spdif. I would say you might want to make sure you update WA with Peter's pack here. (http://www.blorp.com/~peter/) Are you suing the Wave Out or Direct Sound out plugins? You can check this in the WA preferences.

Other than that this should be a straight forward test, let us know if you still have problems after updating. I really could use your help here:)

Edit- The more the Vorbis devs see's people like Tobias and Peter supporting multi-channel then the more we might see full channel coupling in Vorbis.

[user]

Hi,
both possibilities are very big steps for multichannel.

Today I played with my new Terratec EWX 24/96. New HDD 80 GB, new system... much much to do, diploma work, too... no time...

So excuse me, if I had no time for playing, testing Ogg.

But I will install Ogg and MPC at my new system, question, is when ?!

And the reason why "user" will install and go for OGG ?

Because of multichannel capabilities, because that#s the cool stuff of OGG, staying at stereo, I/users could use mp3.

hmm, Could somebody write a clear manual, what should be done to create ie. out of 5.1 ac3 stereo DPL2 wav/Ogg ?
and 2.: a short manual how to create 6 channel OGG from 5.1 ac3 and how to play ?

[ivan_alias]

Right I tried again and did get it to work - I had the wrong output filter selected. Doh!

However, I cannot get it to drive my 4 speakers correctly though.

I have selceted 'down,ix to 4 speakers'

I am just getting what should be only coming from the 2 front speakers, (RF, LF C and LFE) and its coming out of both sets simultaniously. Don't get any rear sound and the front stuff should not be coming out of the back!

If I play the ac3 it works fine, all speakers as they should be (using the win dvd filters).

Any ideas?

Detail:

Win 2K (all patched up)
Soundblaster Live! Player 1024 (supports 4 speakers via analogue outputs)
As far as I know all drivers / filters etc are latest

[zZzZzZz]

try this (http://www.blorp.com/~peter/out_ds.dll) output plugin.

[user]

Hi,

I suggest something:

Because I don't know when I have time to install my system furthermore with OGG and so on,

perhaps somebody can send me lossless packed waves, I prefer monkeys ape, because that is installed already...

So you create (by some way, via Ogg perhaps) DPL2 waves and I can burn them to CDDA, and test them with my Logic7-harman kardon AVR 5000 and my 4 speakers.

DA has done this in past. he created DPL2 waves, just containing audible signals for the rear speakers, for left and right rear separated.
Perhpas it would be very useful for testing,
if somebody with that ac3, (which tells: "fornt right - center - front left - rear left - rear right - front right - and so on"),
would create a DPL2 wave/Ogg file containing it.

test waves have to last at least 3 seconds. (because of Nero 5.5...)

[ivan_alias]

I have an ac3 and an ogg thats audible, want me to mail it to you?

It says left right, center etc..

[ivan_alias]

@zzzzzz Its still not right, almost like you have back and front speakers reversed. What should be going to the front is coming out of the rear and visa versa. Also I don't hear any left surround.

Make sense?

[EDIT]

Ignore the bit about Left surround missing... What a time for a speaker to go wonky! Speaker fixed now.. ;)

[MaTTeR]

@ivan_alias
I'm using the same ac3 file as you, it makes testing the mapping much easier.

@user
It seems as though Dark Avenger is the only one that has the capability to make this file into a DPLII WAV format. I'm jealous of your Terratec, I want one badly.


Glad to see some interest in here now:D If your still having problems with transcoding to 5.1 Vorbis have a look in the "New AV Formats" forum or the Q&A thread. (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16964)

edit-Peter, going to try the new build now.

[zZzZzZz]

next time when reporting channel mapping problems, verify if you still get that with non-downmixed n-channel WAVs so i can find which part (input or output plugin) is to blame.

[ivan_alias]

Ok I think this is right, at least for me..

My AC3 is downmixed to 4 speakers using the intervideo filter so I know my speakers are set up ok in windows etc..

When I play the multichannel ogg in winamp on 4 speaker mode I am getting a setup that is the same as a 2 speaker downmix but on both sets of speakers. The front and back are not being separated properly and the output is the same on both. front left is the same as back left and front right is same as back right.

The 6 channel wav is the same exactly.

Is there something else I can try to give you more info?

[MaTTeR]

Ok we have some progress on the 6ch front now.

LF and RF are mapped properly but none of the other channels are heard whatsoever. This is at least progress for me. Oh, 2ch downmix is working fine as well. However, downmixing to mono still produces no sound, in fact the spectrum graphic doesn't even indicate a sound is playing.

Note I used the remap 6ch option and was using the bottom source channel order.

Edit- I'm wondering if we are going in circles here. Does anyone know for a fact that multi-channel WAV files are supported and mapped properly?

[DarkAvenger]

Making a DS2 (for DPL2, please don't say "DPL2 WAV", it makes less sense than "DS2 WAV") WAV is fairly easy:
Make a 6ch Vorbis and play it with PP's in_vorbis plugin whith settings to downmix to DS2 (and L,C,R,.. mapping in cae of HeadAC3he) and the diskwriter plugin. The "stereo" PCM WAV file you get, should have rear seperation if played through a DPL2 amp.

@PP

Why don't you ask Tobias (maker of OGG DSF) for proper DirectSound mapping? He managed proper 5.1 playback according to MaTTeR.

[user]

Hi,

my address is gigo-fern@gmx.net

It would be very fine, if somebody sends me that ac3 saying: left, right....

lengths of files do not matter, they can be big (oh, gmx.net has an upper limit of 5 MB, I remember).

Or we could do it via ftp.

[Antimon]

Yes, i could use a copy of that file also

Perhaps our esteemed doom9 mantainer could provide storage for such test samples? Though his bandwidth is drained enough i think.

I would have posted sooner, but damn 3 day limit prevented me.

Well it works to tehbest fo my knowledge in downmix 2 speaker mode, testign all 6 channels will be difficult for me because while my soundcard suports 3 outs my amp only has front and rear, and spdif, soon as i get a good test sample i'll test it for ya more throroly.

So in 4 channal mode we should get fl out of fl, c out of cl and fr, fr out of fr, lfe out of both front, and then the 2 rear maped normally right?

mayeb i'll just make a quick test ac3 in cool edit and soft encode

[ivan_alias]

Ok rather than me mailing out this file, its here

http://www.digital-digest.com/dvd/downloads/trailers.html

Good luck!

[Antimon]

Well on my test fiel this is interesting

it downmxies fine in ds 1/2 eexcept for one thing


The lfe track, it should be mixed equally let and right but it's boosted by alot on the right

it plays normally in left, in right it totlay takes over the chanal, it's a 40 hz tone
testing with the new file now

[Antimon]

Yes, the lfe is defiantly favoring the right channal more then the left chanal. leats with the standard direct soudn out i'm installing the plugin pak now, and i'll give youa report tomorow on that as well as 4 speaker mixing

[DarkAvenger]

@PP

Are you also doing the in_wav plugin? Well it doesn'T properly convert 32bit floating point input to 16bit int (or is it a problem of the output plugin). At least I only get noise.

@Antimon

I don't have any problems with LFE. Maybe your soundcard? Check with diskwriter plugin and waveditor.

[zZzZzZz]

(i'm a little bit busy with other stuff, haven't read all replies yet).
yes, i am doing in_wave, if you have any files that don't work correctly, send them to me (mailbombing my hotmail account is OK).

[Antimon]

No it's not my soundcard, it's with the direct sound plugin and headphones everythign else is balenced, center is perfectly centered, left and right are equal volumes as are the surounds, the lfe is heavier in the right then left, i'll take a picture of the waveform

[Antimon]

here ya go LFE waveform decoded in ds with waveout (http://members.aol.com/antim0n/lfe.jpg)

[MaTTeR]

@Antimon

You have the same LFE waveform when decoding with the direct sound plugin? Or is this only the Wave Out plugin?

[Antimon]

It sounds identicle

whether or not it is i can't be sure, but ti soudns identicle, it's very noticeable in headphones andn when lsitionign to left or right playback of lfe independently.

[Antimon]

Ok/...all sorts of problems...

usign any direct soudn plugin the nullsoft one, or either of the 2 experimental oens itmakes nodiffnce..

Mono Mode - It works but the volume is atleast halfed if not more, liek you're gettign wave cancelations

Dolby surround 1/2 - They sopudn the same, but here is what happens

left center right all work

Right Surround comes out of the center speaker
Left Surround comes out of both rear chanals *pro logic amp receiving soudn card stereo out*
Also "lfe" which is spoken on left channal comes out both rears also very faintly, but i think thats an encoder thing. Oddly enough it doesn;t coem out when ti says "left front" so i think the lfe and left are bleeding together and it's gettign confused.

downmix to 4 channals *using 4 point suround option on soundcard and on amp*

left center and right work except they ar mirrored onto the back speakers as well,

right suround comes out all 4, left surround is unheard.

in 6 channal leave as is ther eis signifigant channal bleeding but i dont think it's the plugin, i think it's the encoded oog or the drivers

again left and right work fine, rear elft and right dont work at all, i get left and right normal volume, center abotu half fo that and left and right suround half of that

center and lfe dont work at all.

But dont feel bad...both rear chanals and center soudn horrible when usignthsoe outputs of the card even with a vob in 6 channel mode, and intervideo wotninterface with thsoe channals, only powerdvd will, so i dontthink it's so much your plugin but somthign with the creative drivers themselves

it's a sblive 5.1 x-gamer, windows xp

[ivan_alias]

At least we agree on the 4 Channel setup!

[hulkenstrong]

So I did DL the winamp plugins and did encode some ac3 files to ogg 6CH and set upp the winamp plugins at 6ch remap played the files the files no everything sounded quite good only problem I got was that I couldent hear anything from my center speaker. I got a soundblaster 5.1 whit XP and the latest drivers. Just wanted you to know I couldnt try the ac3 test file the links didnt work.

[CaptainN]

Does anyone know if there is a way to play 6 channel ogg vorbis files (5.1) on a 2 speaker setup?

I am trying to encode a movie with 5.1 support using BeSweet and OggMachine, but when I play back the soundtrack, it sounds like only the left and right speakers are playing (no center channel, rear channels, etc.). Are there any players that will downmix the audio to two speakers when playing (like how DVD seem to work)? Or is there something that I'm doing wrong during encoding?

Thanks.

[tiki4]

@CaptainN:

Yes, you have to install a DS filter called ChannelDownmixer. You can find it here (http://www.trombettworks.com/directshow.php). But beware: there are some issues with that filter, AFAIK you kill playback of AC3 audio in AVI files. You can always disable that filter by looking for ChannelDownmixer.ax and using the following command to de-register it:

regsvr32 /u ChannelDownmixer.ax

Have fun!

tiki4

[geort45]

yesterday I created my own testing AC3 in 5.1, then converted it to vorbis 5.1 with besweet, in all 3 channel mapping configurations. Strangely, when using mediaplayer 6, they ALL are mapped correctly. I compared the files with the COMP command, and they're different...

strange

[geort45]

sorry I missed out the important stuff, they we're ALL mapped correctly... strange indeed.

(using my mobo's AC97 audio)