How to get some high quality 5.1 samples for Monty to tune Vorbis encoder ?

[ChristianHJW]

Referring to this thread here : http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22389 .

Monty needs some high quality 5.1 samples to be able to tune Vorbis for this.

Best source material available is probably either

- some studio/cinema AC3 material ( LigH :D ) with high bitrates ( 1000+ kbps ) ... no SDDS !

- i know there is a 6 ch 16 Bit 48 Khz mode in DVD Video specs, probably for audio only purposes .. anybody has some sources ?

- higher bitrate, well engineered AC3 stuff ( 448 kbps )

- tricky audio scenes, like well recorded voices, etc.

I think it will be hard for Monty to tune the encoder on movie soundtracks, so well recorded music ( live ? ) as AC3 would be more than welcome .. any suggestions ?

Monty needs them in a WAV form ( FLACed or Monkey is ok i guess ), so we will send him CDs, no mails ( overkill ) .. me to centrally organize that ...

[ChristianHJW]

Anybody has an english copy of Arni's 'Predator' ? I know you may think i'm gone crazy but i believe this soundtrack is incredibly high quality ... love the scene with Arni hanging under the big tree and the monster walking over it ... great bass and spatial effects of the backhall ...

if you have, please check if this is 384 or 448 kbps bitrate and tell me via PM here ...

[Charlieds]

Maybe something from Pink Floyd - The Wall DVD?
That could make rjamorim from Hydrogenaudio happy... ;)

[MaTTeR]

Speaking of Pink Floyd...I can provide a sample of Roy Orbison's 5.1 B&W Nights that's mastered quite well.

Also on the music front I have the Tool 5.1 DVD that I could cut a nice snipet from.

If possible we need to use some snipets from "Super Bit" DVD's which will provide full bitrate. I have the 5ht Element Super Bit version as well which would be quite nice as a sample.

[ChristianHJW]

Excellent !

This is the kind of input i was waiting for ! I do have such a DVD setup disc myself i remember, will check it tonight ! Only thing giving me headache is the postal adress problem .. i really dont want my adress floating around somewhere, and i dont think Monty would like this either .. any ideas ?

Wait .. let me ask if Vorbis 'headquarter' has got official postal adress .. otherwise we need somebody with huge webspace ( like 100 MB ), but only for 1x download ( Monty ) ... any volunteers ?

Another option : if this is AC3 ( will be in most cases ) we should be able to cut out the interesting scenes/pieces with a suitable tool ( even Nandub should work if we add a video to it contemporarily ? ) and upload the compressed stuff to a normal webspace ... Monty could decode them to WAV with Azid ? Only problem here : he is on UNIX / Linux, not windows .. but maybe we can convince him to get access to a M$ box only for this purpose .. ;)

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
Only problem here : he is on UNIX / Linux, not windows .. but maybe we can convince him to get access to a M$ box only for this purpose .. ;)

Christian,

On UNIX Monty can use ac3dec (http://www.au.linuxvideo.org/ac3dec/) or try lib52a (http://liba52.sourceforge.net/)

In regards to web space, I believe Pei has access to a dual T3 server with 100MB of storage available.

@All
Anyone else able to provide some clips from Super Bit DVD's? These clips should take priority IMO due to the bitrate and remastering that goes in to them.

[ChristianHJW]

So ... all who want to contribute with material ( only short sniplets, like 30 - 40 s long .. we dont want any piracy probs here ) will have to upload the stuff ( either AC3 or preferably FLACed WAV ) to a certain URL i will pass him ... we have an offer from a nice member and fan of Doom9 offering us 100 MB contemporarily on his webserver, with a 10 MBit line ....

Only high quality stuff, and please select scenes where you think they are fine for a listening test ( anybody has the rain from SPR ? ) ..... please PM me here if you feel you have such stuff ...

[DarkAvenger]

Just for the case, if you don't know: Cutting ac3 is no problem with HeadAC3he.

Cool stuff, keep it up, Chris!

[ChristianHJW]

@DA : :confused: .... so, one of the most interesting sides of life is that we are going to learn new things every day :D ..

@all :

we have to make sure things are standardized for Monty, so we have to prepare the samples all the same way. I suggest that we, in addition to the spurce ( AC3 ) and the decoded FLACed WAC ( BTW : we sure FLAC can do 6 ch WAVs ? ) we should add a 6 ch Vorbis encoding ( .ogg ) made with HeadAC3he or BeSweet adn q=0 , just to allow Monty to download the compressed sample first to be able to listen to it, so he may decide what WAVs to load.

So here my suggestions for standardization :

1. Nomenclature :

Name should contain source, movie, scene, duration, time in movie, bitrate, like

Source : AC3_Gladiator_fight_45s_01-45_384.ac3
Decoded WAV : AC3_Gladiator_fight_45s_01-45_384.WAV
Compressed Vorbis : AC3_Gladiator_fight_45s_01-45_384.ogg

2. Preparation

the original AC3 shouldbe cut using HeadAC3he, and saved as ac3 file


3. Decoding to WAV :

Then we decoded the AC3 to WAV in Azid ( or BeSweet or HeadAC3he ) with a 'light' DRC setting, to 16 Bit INT.

4. Encoding to Vorbis :

This is not done from the WAV created in 3. but directly transcoded from the AC3, using q=0, default channel coupling

All three files should be uploaded !!

These are samples we are looking for :

- Saving Private Ryan, with the rain falling when they enter the village
- 5th Element, the scene with the strange blue glibber lady singing in the ship's concert hall
- any kind of classical concert
- any kind of good live recording with excellent sound ( Sting, Springsteen, Genesis, etc., no pop crap ! )
- Hi-End recordings like Chesky, Telarc, inak, etc. .. only 5.1 !!
- all sniplets 30 - 45 s, max. 60 s

Come on guys, give me samples !!

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Charlieds
[B]Maybe something from Pink Floyd - The Wall DVD?
That could make rjamorim from Hydrogenaudio happy... ;) .... excellent !! Where are my samples ???

[pei]

Yes I have some space on a friends' server, and I can get more than 100mb if I need. Just let me know on #PowerDivX or something.

[DarkAvenger]

What about the opening of Pearl Harbor? Orchestral and some planes flying...and in the war scene a lot of 5.1 is used as well... :D

[MaTTeR]

- 5th Element, the scene with the strange blue glibber lady singing in the ship's concert hall
I've already cut this from the Super Bit DVD:D It's in my collection to upload.

- any kind of good live recording with excellent sound ( Sting, Springsteen, Genesis, etc., no pop crap ! )
For this I have Roy Orbison singing with Springsteen, Elvis Costello, KD Lang and Bonnie Rait. This is from the B&W Nights DVD that is superb:)

I'm also including a snipet of the crash landing from Pitch Black which has excellent surround FX. The other nice scene from this flick is the guy in the desert that gets eaten by the Aliens:eek:

[ChristianHJW]

Great MaTTer !! With all these Newbies reading and posting stupid questions here, obviously nobody has a little time to support us it seems :( ... but the old men are standing upright, facing the work, doing it instead of only talking all the time ...

Really nobody here has a nice copy of 'Predator' ? Guys, believe me, the sound of this movie is excellent .... PM me you lazy bums, if you have a copy !!

[Charlieds]

OK.

60sec of Comfortably Numb guitar solo.
1) AC3_TheWall_CNumbGuitSolo_60s_1h11m30s-1h12m30s_448Kbps.ac3 - 3.301KB
2) AC3_TheWall_CNumbGuitSolo_60s_1h11m30s-1h12m30s_448Kbps.flac - 16.782 KB
3) AC3_TheWall_CNumbGuitSolo_60s_1h11m30s-1h12m30s_448Kbps.ogg - 1.942KB

Total: 21.968KB zipped.

Where do i upload it?

[ChristianHJW]

PM is on the way .. thanks Mate !!!! Please send me the Ogg via mail if possible .. email is in the PM .

BTW : Please zip and upload all files separately !! At least the Ogg should be an extra file, so Monty can download the Ogg first, make his judgement if the scene is helpful for him, and can download the rest then ....

[Nic]

The best guitar solo in the world.....Ive heard if played live many times :D

Hello Mr. Weisner :)

-Nic

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Nic Hello Mr. Weisner :)-Ni Hehehe .. yes, this is the correct way of adressing people in Germany Nic ;) .. you learning fast !

Any good pieces of sound in your collection mate ?

[DSPguru]

Originally posted by Nic
The best guitar solo in the world.....Ive heard if played live many times :Dvery good solo! but certainly not the best.
can't decide right now which is the best, but the solo of "whole lotta love" by jimmy page (led zepplin) is really a good candidate.

btw, i've seen "The Wall" dvd more than once(amazing film), but i'm afraid the sound quality is poor :(.


Mr. Weisner,
i might supply some samples of my own. i have dvds of King Crimson, The Who, Dream Theater, Woodstock, etc'..

The KC DVD has amazing sound quality, so i might pack some samples.
btw, what would be the desired channels ordering in those samples ?

Dg.

[DarkAvenger]

So is there interest for the Pearl Harbor samples? (I will only upload AC3, as I hate pushing MBs through my v90). What about THX and DD intros? They have fantasic 5.1, of course...

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by DSPguru
The KC DVD has amazing sound quality, so i might pack some samples.
btw, what would be the desired channels ordering in those samples ?

Originally posted by DarkAvengerSo is there interest for the Pearl Harbor samples? (I will only upload AC3, as I hate pushing MBs through my v90). What about THX and DD intros? They have fantasic 5.1, of course...?


Its a shame really, but again the moderators and coders of this forums have to prepare samples, because nobody else feels like he could do someting for the community offering him everything for free !

Very annoying and frustrating this is, indeed .... and very demotivating also !!

Here is my word folks :

If we dont have at least 20 fine samples to upload i swear i will stop working on this project ! Get your lazy asses out of the chair and contribute !!

I cant stand the idea DSPguru has to invest his rare spare time to prepare 5.1 samples, while he is providing you all with such a great audio tool for nothing !
Same with DA .. should he really upload 20 MB through a V90, while mayn of you are on cable, DSL or even Tx ???

Come on, this cant be true at all !! If we dont get the samples arranged here until Sunday night i will email Monty and tell him there is no interest from the video encoding community in his work !!

Period !!

[Charlieds]

@Chris
Check your PM & mail.
I'm on HDSL 2Mb until 19:00 (15:20 now), at home i've only a crappy v90 as DA.
If my .ogg is ok i'll start uploading now.

[Doom9]

I'm on dsl but I have an ISDN-like uplink.. not much better than 56k.

One reason why only mods have reacted so far may be this: you're not asking for little.. most people haven't even used vorbis, let along created a 5.1 vorbis. And decoding to 6ch wav and encode with flac.. would be first time for me as well. I don't even know for sure what flac is.. I presume some lossless audio codec but unless I go searching on goggle I wouldn't know more.

[Charlieds]

@Chris
Just to add frustration to frustration, i'm *happy* to inform you that i can't connect to THAT ftp.
Timeout a gogo... GRRR...

[MaTTeR]

@Charlieds

I just checked the FTP with FlashFXP and it worked fine here. Maybe the server was rebooting?

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Doom9 One reason why only mods have reacted so far may be this: you're not asking for little.. most people haven't even used vorbis, let along created a 5.1 vorbis. And decoding to 6ch wav and encode with flac.. would be first time for me as well. I don't even know for sure what flac is.. I presume some lossless audio codec but unless I go searching on goggle I wouldn't know more. .. thanks Doom9 for clarifying .. i knew there must be something wrong here, as we didnt get any reaction !

So, some explanation :

1. FLAC is a very well know lossless audio compression codec. It won't touch the information in a WAV, just remove the redundant bits ( like Zip, but for audio ). Check out this page for a nice GUI and some advice on how to use it : http://home.wanadoo.nl/~w.speek/flac.htm !

2. As AFAIK BeSweet is not supporting 6 ch transcoding from AC3 to 6ch Vorbis, use either OggMachine or latest HeadAC3he from DA's homepage to do so ... Use q = 0 - 0.5 to keep bitrates low, these are just for quick testing of the samples, not sound related !

3. In a next step use either Azid with BeSweet GUI, BeSweet or HeadAC3he to decode the AC3 to a 6 ch WAV file, DRC 'light' on all channels.

4. Feed the WAV you get in 3. into the FLAC GUI and you should be done

I dont have to create my first Guide, do i ?? This here is a board for advanced rippers, ladies ! ;)

[macdaddy]

I'd be happy to upload (when I get home from work) the audio from the pod race scene from Episode I (which has alot of good sound in it) if you want it. I have a large number of CDs, so if there is a specific clip you are looking for-post: there is a pretty good chance I could put my fingers on it...

[ChristianHJW]

@macaddy : thanks for your offer to contribute here.

Please keep in mind, we are not looking for the crazy effects scene, we are looking for 5.1 sound that will allow Monty to tune the codec with listening tests !

The effects in action scenes will always sound nice with a 5.1 setup, thats not the problem .. but to tune the codec such that it will give human voices a natural sound, or acoustic instruments, this is the hard part !

I just mentioned 'Predator' because i know there are a few very good scenes in there where bird voices in the djungle had been recorded very well and with a very natural surround setup ... its normally not the typical Arni movie ( like Terminator ;) ) we need for the listening tests .... some well recorded test audio tracks ( like the DD trailer DG mentioned ) or live recordings will probably be the best choices !!

And i honestly dont want/know what samples we need ! You all make your own choice and simply upload the stuff, we have 2 GB partition to use and Monty can test every track before downloading, so he will make the final choice what he needs and wants .. not me !

So simply upload the stuff, dont panic you might be flamed for the bad sample you chose !!

[DarkAvenger]

BTW, you must tell Monty to take special car of the rear channels. DD EX ("6.1") has a rear center matrixed and I read about "7.1" which furthermore has a "God" channel inside, just like center and rear are DS encoded into regular 2ch.

[MaTTeR]

@Dark Avenger

Should we not concern ourselves with the channel coupling on the 6ch Vorbis files for this test? I'm assuming we shouldn't since this isn't a valid listening test.

[DarkAvenger]

Uhh, I guess I am blind, what was the ftp address again?

[DarkAvenger]

@Matter

I didn*t quite get what you were trying to tell me. Maybe its the heat in Germany. ;)

[DarkAvenger]

@Doom9

ISDN has 64kbit/128kbit upload, v90 only 33kbit...Furthermore I don't have a flatrate...

[Charlieds]

Files up. (crossing fingers)

[MaTTeR]

@Dark Avenger

Check your PM for the addy.

I was asking if we should be concerned what channel coupling mode to use when transcoding to 6ch Vorbis with HeadAC3he.

[Doom9]

@da: well.. coupling 2 idsn channel costs twice as much money and our telco is way more expensive than yours. and isn't there a new v9x standard that allows to ul more?

anyways.. now I have a 44s 448khz ac3, flac and ogg (q=0.5 in hac3) sitting on my hd and I have no clue as where to upload.. anybody care to enlighten me?

[Doom9]

I dunno.. maybe a text guide wouldn't be such a bad idea.. though having read my ac3 guides should about cover it (except for the flac part which is not that hard but it just takes time getting everything together).

and of course.. nobody seems to know where to upload.. it should be mentioned that once you have the samples ready you should post here (or pm chris/matter?) to get the account info

[DSPguru]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
2. As AFAIK BeSweet is not supporting 6 ch transcoding from AC3 to 6ch Vorbis, use either OggMachine or latest HeadAC3he from DA's homepage to do so ... Use q = 0 - 0.5 to keep bitrates low, these are just for quick testing of the samples, not sound related !OggMachine,BeSweetGUI,BeSweet - all are the same engine, and all can produce 5.1vorbis.

[DarkAvenger]

@Matter

In 6ch mode no ch coupling is activated, so the option has no effect.

[Doom9]

okay.. spr is up.. how about a bullettime scene from matrix? that's the 2nd movie I have on my hd.. but then my upload patience will definitely be maxed out

[macdaddy]

I'm home now, and I would be happy to help:

1-How do I upload: via ftp? what address?
2-If you want a variety of stuff, I assume quiet conversation, effects (pod race), music should all be run through the gauntlet...
3-Just to confirm: < 1 minute length, .ac3 and .flac and .ogg sources..?

I'm on it, and will check back later.

[ChristianHJW]

@all : Guys, i cant be online much today .. MaTTer, could you post a summarization of what people have to do exactly ?

@Doom9 : Swede doesnt want the FTP settings floating around in the net .. only those who prepared samples will get the required info fro me or Matter, after sending PM to any of us .. check your PM box ;) !

[robUx4]

I have 2 audio DVDs (not DVD-audio) from Orbital "The altogether" and Underworld "Everything, Everything" that both contain 5.1 audio...

How do I rip them ? (and how can I make sure I rip the 5.1 part and not the stereo) ?

[DarkAvenger]

The guides will show how to rip. Just open the ac3 in HeadAC3he, and if it shows 5.1, so have chosen the right track.

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
@all : Guys, i cant be online much today .. MaTTer, could you post a summarization of what people have to do exactly ?

It's almost 4:30AM here so I'll write something up tomorrow when I'm more coherent:)

@robUx4
The Orbital DVD should work quite nicely.

Edit/ BTW- I'm uploading 430MB of 5.1 samples to the FTP:D Speed is throttled to 12K/sec so I don't eat up the bandwidth.

[Doom9]

urgh.. 26kb download and 5kb upload is all I get from my dsl line.. anyways.. the 2nd clip is on its way.. and with matter's 430mb we should have ample testing material.. hopefully monty has more than an analogue modem

[macdaddy]

Well, I tried...

[MaTTeR]

OK, my uploading is all finished now. I think we have enough movie source material now but it would be nice to have maybe a few more clips of music.

@robUx4
I can help you with the Orbital DVD if you like. Orbital isn't all music without voices right? Give me a yell on #mcf and I'll walk you through it.

[mwillberg]

I have made a 5.1 rip of Predator, but "my DVD is no longer working". "Save WAV" in Nandub seems to mess it up, it gets really jerky when playing. If anyone knows a way to extract it from the avi without corrupting it, I can do the rest.

BTW Christian, it's 384kbps.

[macdaddy]

I sent the .ogg of a music clip to ChristianHJW (Johnny Lee Hooker's "Boom Boom" from the Blues Brothers). He said it was fine, but I don't know where to upload. Let me know if you want the trifecta of files (.ac3, .flac, .ogg)...

[macdaddy]

finished uploading...

if you all need another music clip, I can encode a sample from another source...

[robUx4]

Originally posted by MaTTeR
OK, my uploading is all finished now. I think we have enough movie source material now but it would be nice to have maybe a few more clips of music.

@robUx4
I can help you with the Orbital DVD if you like. Orbital isn't all music without voices right? Give me a yell on #mcf and I'll walk you through it.

Well, I ripped it yesterday, but I'm not sure what I did was right... I don't have a 5.1 system to test if the other channels are worth or not.
And I don't know the person to contact to send it :(

The Orbital DVD has 2 main tracks, the music, and some comments over the music/video.

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by robUx4

And I don't know the person to contact to send it :(


Check your PM box. I sent you the info:)

[user]

Hi all,

I could provide high quality music (*.ac3), eg. the doors LA Woman.

There is one track where a certain sound circles in a very interesting, demonstrating frequency from one speaker to next, like caroussell (is this an English word, you understand ?)

If somebody tell how to extract from DVD-A, even that would be possible.

Then I have ac3 (If you want: dts ...) from Sheryl crow, Tina Turner and some other.

So if HQ samples are needed ...

From that circling (=carousselling) doors ac3 only about 20 or 30 seconds would be needed, not too many megabytes.

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by user
I could provide high quality music (*.ac3), eg. the doors LA Woman.
From that circling (=carousselling) doors ac3 only about 20 or 30 seconds would be needed, not too many megabytes. .. user, yes, go for it ! As i consider you being an 'experienced' member, just like Charlieds, macaddy and robux4 i guess Matter and me dont need to help you how to prepare the 3 files ( ac3, ogg, FLAC ) ?

Thanks for your help ... check your PM box here !

EDIT : no, wtf ? why cant you receive PMs here ? please send me a mail to christianhjw at powerdivx dot com and i reply via mail what to do

[user]

hmm, hmm,
meanwhile I have read the whole thread and understand the problems.
The guy who needs all the samples, uses no M$windows.

So he cannot use monkeys audio, ape files, what a pity,
btw, meanwhile monkey is opened a little bit, so there will be in future probably monkeys ape for Linux and so on as well....

So we have to compress as FLAC. You know, some time ago, I installed LPAC, a precursor to FLAC. Then LPAC was suddenly out, now FLAC is in...
I have so much to do besides audio... and I am very tired.
Monkeys i use anyway sometimes...

I did the selection of useful ac3 parts of my music with Headac3he.
Could i send the pure ac3 files to somebody who would do the transformations instead of me ?

Otherwise it would take quite much time for me until I have installed Ogg, FLAC and converted to wav to flac and to Ogg Vorbis, at least one week.

Excuse me, but the pure ac3 's I could send immediately.
Otherwise it would be a good reason to install Ogg....

[MaTTeR]

user,

Check your PM box, I'll give you my email address and you can send them to me.

Edit- Just noticed you have no PM box. Strange. Do you have a public email address I can send to?

[user]

Of course, I have a mail address, isn't it activated in my profile ?

gigo-fern at gmx.net

[MaTTeR]

@user

I'm uploading your files now. Clip 3 had a corrupt frame so Azid wouldn't process it. No big deal though.

@All
I guess will make this last call for any other samples you might want to contribute before we contact Monty. Please PM me or post in this thread if you think you might have a clip we should consider.

I purchased Roger Waters:In The Flesh this morning. I have to say it's one of the better concert 5.1 mixes I've heard to date. So I'll be ripping a few clips from it to upload as well.

[Triggerle]

I just discovered this thread. Although you state that you have enough movie samples I would like to point out one more film:

David Lynch's Lost Highway has some of the most impressive sound engineering I've heard so far. Unfortunately I don't have the DVD and don't know if the encoding on the DVD is up to par with the theater quality.

But maybe someone has the DVD lying around and would care to select a clip from it.

Keep up the excellent work, guys!

Triggerle

[MaTTeR]

Thanks to all the offers and help to make this happen guys. All samples are uploaded and Christian has passed the link on to Monty.

Christian's online time will be somewhat limited for a few months(maybe longer...we hope not:) )During this time, I'll stay in touch with the Vorbis devs and report any progress made here in the audio forum.

Again, thanks for the contributions. This should at least show the developers were serious about a multi-channel solution.

[ChristianHJW]

MaTTer ... i cant agree more ... and would like to add that MaTTer himself has contributed 20 different samples alone !!!

The video community doesnt know IMHO what wonderful people are serving it .... Thanks mate, for all the wonderful input and immense workload you had been doing ( and hopefully will be doing until i return ) .. :) !

[DSPguru]

Originally posted by Triggerle
David Lynch's Lost Highway has some of the most impressive sound engineering I've heard so far.i once heard that lynch didn't want to release it on dvd..
anyway, i bought the vhs version about a year ago :).

and yes, the soundtrack includes cool tracks, mostly the songs by Rammstein.

[macdaddy]

I only hope it helps Monty out-and Matter, you did go above and beyond the call of duty. I still have one extra sample (Rolling Stones) if needed. no one needs it, I'll just dump it. Anyway, I hope the sample help-6 channel ogg is pretty exciting...

[ChristianHJW]

Again many thanks to those of you who had been upöloading samples.

I am afraid to say i couldnt talk to Monty recently about if he could download samples or if their is any progress ... maybe MaTTer or tangent can talk to him and give us some feedback ?? Thanks

[MaTTeR]

I have an email into Monty now asking him for a quick update and to let us know if all the samples have been downloaded.

I'll drop by IRC after work tonight and see if I can find him in the channel as well.