Burning – Image File vs. UDF/ISO Project

[kevinswystun]

I have read guides on how to create and burn an image file. I am wondering which method will help lessen glitches, which is better for playback quality.

I am currently burning name brand DVD-R only, Apple, TDK, Pioneer with Nero, using the UDF/ISO method (i.e. a Video_TS folder with all needed .Ifo & .Vob files). The standalone plays it, but sometimes glitches appear (this may not be a burn problem) 30 seconds into a chapter it will jump ahead to the next chapter. If I hit the rewind chapter button on the remote and go back to the previously jump chapter, it will hesitate slightly and get a little blocky at the point it jumped ahead before, but will not jump ahead again. This never happens with a DVD-RW, (but that media is too expensive) or if I play it back on a software player from the hard drive.

Is anyone experiencing this problem? Which method is better?

[wakebrder]

If you're using high quality media, Nero is most likely your problem. Try creating an image file with IFOEdit and burning with Prassi. The media also definitely makes a difference. I get pixelization/freezing with all the cheap brands I've tried so far. Pioneer & Apple play flawlessly in my JVC XASA75BK. It would not even recognize discs burned with Nero! (Of course I figured this out after buying/returning 3 different settop players) :angry: Give it a shot and post your results. Good luck!

[Markab]

If you want to use Nero be sure you are using the latest version. Earlier versions are said to said to have problems creating DVD's. I'm using the most recent version and have no problems creating DVD's.
Hope this helps.
Mark

[wakebrder]

It all depends on the media & settop player, but I was having problems with Nero 5.5.7.8. I just think your DVD-R will be compatible with MORE settops if you burn an image with something other than nero.

[sundance]

wakebrder,
is Prassi the only burning app that can deal with IfoEdit images?
Do you know if there's a demo available?

-sundance-

[erwan]

hi,
im using recordnow max to burn (both ifo images or vob files).
burning engine is said to be the same as prassi.
a full demo is avaible on the web site.
im using appel or pionner media (dvd-r and dvd-rw).

and never had any troubles.

thought this might help.

Erwan

[wakebrder]

I think just about any burning software can deal with image files. Even a simple program like Fireburner could work (if it has DVD support)? I use Prassi because it came with my Pioneer A03 and I've heard good things about it. Not sure about a demo. Do a search on burning programs and you should come up with some others. Gear Pro comes to mind. You should be able to burn your image with IFOedit also, but I haven't got this to work. You might even try burning an image file with Nero....could give better results. I've read in other posts/guides that Nero doesn't produce %100 compliant DVDs though.

[Markab]

Originally posted by wakebrder
It all depends on the media & settop player, but I was having problems with Nero 5.5.7.8. I just think your DVD-R will be compatible with MORE settops if you burn an image with something other than nero.

Hmmm there must be something I'm missing here. If a dvd is created with Nero or any other authuring software and plays successfully in a table top player shouldn't it play in every table top player providing it can read the media and it is built to industry DVD specs?
Perhaps your problem wasn't with Nero.
Mark

[sundance]

erwan:
What version of Recordmax Now are you using?
(I also use Apple DVD-R media and a Pioneer-A03 recorder)

wakebrder:
Since I don't know the specification of the IfoEdit image file I have some doubts that Nero could do the job although I'd like this best as I try to keep the number of burning programs as small as possible...
IfoEdit's burning capabilities (I think) are very limited as Derrow once posted that it don't work for most people.

Until now I've been recording some DVD-R with Nero 5.5.7.8 (creating an UDF disc from the IfoEdit files) and they all work flawlessly on my Pioneer standalone. But I think that using the image file method ensures that my (valueable and expensive!) DVD-Rs will also work on other players. Pioneer's players are known to be very tolerant with near spec discs...

-sundance-

[kevinswystun]

To: Erwan

You said you use Apple and Pioneer DVD-R’s. What is the best price you found to either media? I pay $5.38 US per for Apple DVD-R (including tax and shipping) at the official Internet Apple store.

To: All of you who replied

Firstly THANK you. I am going to use Prassi to burn an Image file this weekend and I will post my results.

[wakebrder]

Originally posted by Markab


Hmmm there must be something I'm missing here. If a dvd is created with Nero or any other authuring software and plays successfully in a table top player shouldn't it play in every table top player providing it can read the media and it is built to industry DVD specs?
Perhaps your problem wasn't with Nero.
Mark

Yes, this should be the case, but most definitely is not. The first few DVD-Rs I made were with Nero. These played flawlessly in my parents Pioneer 525, but my JVC XASA75BK would not even recognize them (using Derrow's Nero guide with an AUDIO_TS folder) After reading that burning an image file with IFOedit would produce the most compliant DVD, I gave it a shot, tried it in my JVC, & viola! it worked! I am now on my 20th or so sucessful rip.
I'm in the process of giving away my early rips (coasters to me) to friends/family who own the 525.
I think different media, players, and burning methods all factor a part in the outcome of your disc. This is just the method I have found to be the most compatible on the largest number of players. (My Nero burned disc would only play on 5 of the 20 players I tried at Ultimate Electronics.)
BTW, I had 4 different players and 4 different kinds of media at my house for testing. I think some players are just more tolerant to different kinds of media, but Pioneer & Apple media should play on just about anything burning an IFOedit generated image file. (sorry for the long post, just trying to spare you guys the "hell" I went through):D

[Discoboy]

To: wakebrder. You mentioned the “burning an image file with IFOedit” article. What burning software did you used to burn the IFOedit created image file? Thanks for your help in advance.

[wakebrder]

@Discoboy, I burned the image with Prassi 2.0. (it was included with my burner<Pioneer A03>, so I doubt it would be that difficult to "obtain")
:D

[bluespot]

Just something to keep in mind, I think that the image creation tool in IFOEdit has the possibility to corrupt DVDs before you burn them.

I admit, I have done about 10 successful rips using the image creation tool, but recently I had one movie that I believe was being corrupted in the image creation process. Check out my original post here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22209

The original post pretty much speaks for itself. I checked the error again that PowerDVD gave, and it was indeed 'Unknown File Type', for both discs. When I copied the burned files to my hard disc, PowerDVD gave the same error. I then replaced all the IFO and BUP files with the originals, and PowerDVD gave a different error, I can't remember exactly what it was.

The only thing that I can say for certian, is that the problem was either with the image creation tool, or PrimoDVD. And I doubt that PrimoDVD was the cause.

Because of this, I've been using Nero. I haven't had a chance to do much compatability testing, but that should change soon.

[wakebrder]

Hmmmmmm...Ok...a little experiment here: I'll burn my image w/prassi and UDF/IFO project w/Nero(according to Derrows guide). Same media, same standalone. I will post results.

[wakebrder]

AAAAAARRRGG!!! Disregard all my previous posts. Burned a sucessful DVD-R with Nero:eek: I guess you guys were right. I must've been doing something else wrong earlier. I found something that worked and stuck with it.(image + Prassi) thinking Nero was the problem. I guess maybe I'm maybe still a bit new at this to be giving advice. Sorry if I misled anyone.:o

[sundance]

wakebrder:
Did the Nero UDF disc only play w/ your JVC standalone or did you also try others?

[jaay]

i have been burning dvd-rs with nero and they always play in my pioneer settops but wont work in other brands such as onkyo etc. i do not have prassi so i cant try that - is maestro's image then burn option reliable???

[wakebrder]

sundance - I just returned my "last" DVD player yesterday. (Toshiba 4700) So I can't verify any other players right now. I would guarantee they would play on my old Pioneer 525 (it will play anything I throw at it) Seems Pioneer was possibly "looking ahead" to players being compatible with discs produced by the A03.

[wakebrder]

Originally posted by bluespot
I checked the error again that PowerDVD gave, and it was indeed 'Unknown File Type', for both discs. When I copied the burned files to my hard disc, PowerDVD gave the same error. I then replaced all the IFO and BUP files with the originals, and PowerDVD gave a different error, I can't remember exactly what it was.



I have received the same error in Power DVD at random with discs I have played (with no problems) before.
I would give the DVD player in IFOEdit a shot. It's a little crude, but generally if your project will play within IFOEdit, it should work on your standalone. If not, it will give you a better idea of what the problem is.

[Sp33d]

I've been using Nero 5.5.8.0 and it works pretty well. They only thing I really need is a program that can burn the vob files without converting them. I'd like to try Prassi at some point since I hear so much about that. I'm using a Pioneer 103 drive with a Toshiba SD-2800 standalone.

[jaay]

i have been using nero 5.5.7.2 and it produces incompatible dvds. now i use dvdmaestro to produce and image and either burn it directly or in another prog. this works perfectly now :)

[erwan]

i use recordnow max to burn either my vob files directly (drag&drop!)
or ifoedit image file.

you can download a 30day trial from their web site.
the burning engine is the same as prassi.

Erwan

[datqng]

If I understand the DVD structure correctly, the IFO, VOB, and BUP files must be placed on the media in that exact order for the disc to be fully compatible. Does Nero place them in that order or does it place them alphabetically?

[bbiandov]

Originally posted by wakebrder
AAAAAARRRGG!!! Disregard all my previous posts. Burned a sucessful DVD-R with Nero:eek:

wakebrder,
What version do you use and can you post your settings for the DVD project (do you pick DVD-Video or ISO/UDF, ISO livel?, Joilet, etc settings in the file system tab)

thanks
bb

[UTec]

Originally posted by datqng
If I understand the DVD structure correctly, the IFO, VOB, and BUP files must be placed on the media in that exact order for the disc to be fully compatible. Does Nero place them in that order or does it place them alphabetically?

Well in the compilation window, it looks like Nero is putting them in the right order but that's no garantee that Nero will burn the file VIDEO_TS.IFO on the very first sector of the DVD-R which is absolutely essential for a disc to be readable by a settop player.

In my experience, Nero has let me down miserably and I don't trust it anymore. I NEVER use it to burn DVD-R's or DVD-RW's. Oh sure, some people are claiming that it works fine for them and I believe them. I used Nero in the past and all was well until I bothered trying the discs I was burning on other settop players than my own.

And THAT's the bottom line: which settop players will the disc be able to play on. Now I don't know about you but for me, the answer is : "as many of them as possible".

Let me tell you my little story.

I started out burning DVD-R and DVD-RW discs on my Pioneer A03 with Nero 5.5.7.2 in ISO/UDF format. I would try those in my old Pioneer DV-434 settop player it would play absolutely everything I threw at it. I tought everything was for the best.

Then, I got a recent model DVD player for my brother: Panasonic RV-32. Said on the box that it plays DVD-R's. So it will play my Nero burned discs fine right?... BUZZZ!! Wrong.

Then I got another recent settop for myself: a Pioneer DV-353. Also said that it plays DVD-R's. I figured that Pioneer settops are more tolerant in general (judging by my DVD-434) so it will play my Nero burned discs fine right?... BUZZZ!! Wrong again.

Then I tried the same discs on my friend's Philips DVD711... No dice again.

So all this time, I was burning coasters and I didn't even know it. Sure they'll play on my DV-434 (because it's a pussycat) and my Pioneer A03 but not on any other players. In my book, that's a coaster (it's good for a re-rip backup however).

So at first, I thought it was due to the version of Nero because the "real" DVD-Video format compilation was introduced with 5.5.8.0.

So I upgraded to 5.5.8.0.... BUZZZ!! same difference

Then I upgraded to 5.5.9.0 (was supposed to have fixed the DVD-Video "bug").... BUZZZ!! same difference

Then I downgraded to Nero 5.5.8.2 (because I read here that it was "still the most reliable")... BUUZZZ!! same difference

Thank God for DVD-RW's :D

Then, the light at the end of the tunnel...

By that time, instead of ripping and stripping, I had started re-authoring all my project with DVD-Maestro. So I decided instead to generate a disc image of my VTS titleset and burn using Maestro's burning utility... Alleluia!!! (angel choir singing) :)

The discs (both DVD-R and DVD-RW) worked in ALL 4 players. And I'm pretty sure they would work in most other (old and recent) settop's. Using this method, I tried Mitsui Gold, Verbatim and Pioneer DVD-R's and have found those 3 brands to be very reliable.

I have tried a few cheap Princo's just for the halibut: they play on both Pioneer's and the Philips 711 but NOT on the Panasonic RV-32) so those I won't buy anymore. Recently, I found a great deal on Pioneer DVD-R's and will use ONLY those from now on.

At point, I was all set but not entirely satisfied... DVD-Maestro cannot burn DVD-R's at 2X. Then suddenly, heaven smiled upon me again... The latest version of DVD Decrypter... Alleluia!! (more angels singing).. :D Now I simply burn my Maestro generated .img files with DVD Decrypter (a BIG thanks to the author of the guide for making me aware of this awesome feature). It burns Mitsui Gold, Verbatims and Pioneer discs in 2X, no problem whatsoever. Who needs Nero anyway?

So in my experience, the disc compatibility problem is a combination of:

1. What media you use. Stick with quality
2. What burning software/format you use.
3. What settop you use to test your discs (SUPREMELY important and sadly... vastly overlooked)

Older (meaning 2-3 years old models or more) settop players are the WORST possible test bed because they tend to be more tolerant in general than recent models. I recommend you go to the Hi-Fi store near you and bug those salesmen and try your DVD-R's in the new players. Don't be shy, tell them it's for a computer science research project... that's what I did ;)

[bluespot]

Very good summary at the end there UTec. I've been at this for quite a while, and there are only 2 pieces of advice that I can give:

Create an image before you burn (Forget Nero damit!!)
Use branded media!

If you do these 2 things, you will save yourself a lot of headaches and a lot of money.

BTW
I just looked at my original post in this thread...please disregard it! It turned out to be the media (crappy Princos). When I burned that image file with better media, it worked perfectly.

[bbiandov]

bluespot

What media was the kind that worked over Princo?

thanks
bb

[bluespot]

bbiandov,

The media that worked in this case was Ridata. However, they still only burned at 1x, and they still had compatability issues with some players. The only media that I would recommend now is Verbatim, Pioneer, or Apple. They burn at 2x and will play in any player. There may be others, but none that I have personally used. I just keep hoping that the price will come down...

[f@chance]

UTec thanks for the post and the research. I started to experience also problems with Nero. Went back from 5.5.90 to 5.5.82 and sofar so good. But I am willing to try your way. Maestro created image and burn with Decrypter.

Thanks again for that exellent summary.

F@Chance