99 minscdrs over 80mins are they worth it?AND GUIDE LINK

[axia]

hi guys, ive been having a coaster making session with the new infinti 99 min cdrs.
Now i can overburn 80 mins cdrs to 823mbs with my Liteon 24x burner with the latest firmware, using the latest release of Nero in dao mode.
So far the highest successfull burn with the 99mins is an indicated 975mbs, when i say that Nero doesnt seem to agree eith either the system or complimation info regarding file size, ie it will say 870mb , then you go to burn and this will jump up to say 940mb?!
the only thing i can asuume is this is the differnece between a true megabyte and reported ie hex.
So my point is if i can overburn cheap generics to say 830mb and the 99 mins top out and say 930mb are they worth the price premium,
my costs are 20p sterling /28 cents us for 80mins intenso white topsm and 40p sterling/57 cents us for 99mins infinti.
ok...generic just failed at 93% on a 907mb burn,,,

one last question, according to infinti and there nero webguide the media should be identified as http://www.medeainternational.com/downloads/specifications/cdr99icp%20instructions.pdf, which is 19.59 secs , although my system identifies it as 80 mins media?


cheers guys

[markrb]

Nero is not the greatest at overburning. Try VCDeasy which is great at it with no modifications needed and CDRWIN that may need a couple of the cue points removed. I have only ever tried the overburning with the cue files created by DVD2SVCD.
With my drive I can burn at least 1gb on a 99 minute cdr and they play fine on my Apex. I have a TDK drive that is basically a rebagged Lite-On 24X burner.

Take a look at the sticky about how many megabytes can you burn. From the responses it always seems it's the DVD player that is the weakest link.

Mark

[Spawn]

I think this might clear up some confusion as to why Nero says what it does.

The maximum usable space on a 99min cd has to do with what kinda of data you wanna store. SVCD/VCD/Audio use Mode 2 Form 2 (A 2324 sector size) which correlates to ~987mb of useble space for those formats.

However if your storing data, like documents or zip files (In which case you'll use Mode 1 or Mode 2 Form 1, both using a sector size of 2048). On a 99min cd that is only about 870mb of useable space.

The difference in the space is the amount of error correction used, as there's is alot for data and practically none for SVCD/VCD/Audio (Note, I said practically none. Some is used, its just very little.)

The formula to calculate this for any sector size & disc size is actually quite simple.

Useable space (in Mbytes) as a function of sector size (in bytes) & disc size (in minutes):

Us(ssize,dsize)=((75frames/sec)*(60sec/min)*(ssize)*(dsize))/(2^20)

So for example to find how much useable space for an SVCD on a 99min disc would be:
Us(2324,99)=((75frames/sec)*(60sec/min)*(2324)*(99))/(2^20)
=987.37mb

Anyways, thats probably more info than you wanted to know .. so I'll shutup now ... hehe.

-Spawn

[Mozart]

@ spawn

two points:

1)this equation is not new. It can be found at newbie FAQ;

2)your sector size is wrong. Vcdimager uses 2352. Thus, the size of a SVCD is:
CDR 74min => 747MB = 764,859KB
CDR 80min => 807.5MB = 826,875KB
CDR 90min => 908.4MB = 930,234KB
CDR 99min => 999.3MB = 1,023,258KB

:rolleyes:

[axia]

by the way i should have said that im using demon tool virtual stealth drives to load my cue files and then diskcopy with nero as recommended by this forum.

[Kedirekin]

I believe the raw sector size is always 2352 regardless of format, but it's the usable data size in the sector that's important. The portion used for synchronization, control, addressing, error correction, etc. doesn't count towards the amount of data we can store on a CDR.

For mode 1 and mode 2 form 1, the usable data size is 2048 bytes per sector. For mode 2 form 2 (used in VCD, SVCD) the usable data size is 2324 bytes per sector.

Spawn's sector size is 'more' correct in this discussion.

[mkanar]

Originally posted by axia
by the way i should have said that im using demon tool virtual stealth drives to load my cue files and then diskcopy with nero as recommended by this forum.

What message said to do this? I strongly disagree with such a method. IMHO, the advise to use CDRDAO (which can easily be accessed using VCDEasy) is very good.

Spawn:

Are you the infamous Spawn that is well-experienced with the Dazzle DVC2 and living in Denmark or Germany?

MKanar

[Spawn]

Mozart,

Sorry I should have read the newbie faq before posting, its just I never use DVD2SVCD so I rarely frequent this forum. But yes Kedirekin is right, the raw sector size is 2352 bytes and that includes subchannel among other things, of that we can only use 2324 for SVCD, hence the reason for using 2324 in the formula.

mkanar, no I'm not the famous Spawn from Germany/Denmark ;-)

I'm just a guy from Canada who's been making SVCD as long as I can remember Doom9 having a site.

-Spawn

[markrb]

Mozart those sizes you state are probably the sizes without overburning the discs. I know I can go at least a little above that stated size for a 99 minute disc and I have seen that as high as 1030mb has been achieved, although I have not been able to get that high. Mainly because VCDXBuild croaks and refuses to make a cue that large.

I know that on the 80 minute discs with overburning I can get around 830mb on a disc.

Of course the max size with overburning will greatly depend on the burner and this does not even take into account what the DVD player can successfully play. My Pioneer will not play a highly overburned disc while my Apex will.

Mark

[Mozart]

Originally posted by Kedirekin

Spawn's sector size is 'more' correct in this discussion.

where did you get the clue for this assumption? All that I can see is that axia was talking about the cue/bin image file size :rolleyes:

Of course, I know that the sector size is not the data_per_sector size. Actually, this is a more accurate information:

CD-ROM-XA Mode 2 Form 2:

12 bytes synchronisation
2 bytes header
8 bytes subheader
6 bytes ???
2,324 bytes data


@markrb

yes, this is the size without overburn. It is possible to test the maximum possible size of a overburnned CDR using nero or feurio. This size varies randomly from disk to disk, even if they have the same brand. Most of times, for a 80min CDR media, this size is between 82min and 83min (818MB ~ 828MB of data, or 827MB ~ 837MB of bin/cue image size).

[Kedirekin]

mmmm, I see now where you're coming from. I never considered that the bin file might actually include the entire 2352 bytes per sector - I always assumed it only contained the 2324 bytes of user data, and that the remaining synch, header, etc. was added by the burner firmware during burning.

Mind you, I don't know that the bin does include all 2352 bytes, but I conceed that it might, and if it does, your calculations of maximum bin size that will fit on CDRs without overburning are (more) correct.

PS. I hope you'll conceed that Spawn's sector size is (more) correct for seeing if the mpg file will fit.

[Spawn]

Kedirekin, a bin/cue *CAN* included a full 2352 sector size, however it DOESN'T have to, an image that does is considered a raw image.

An SVCD image can also have a 2336 byte sector size and all the rest of sector info is added by the cd burner when burned (Which you said). I guess you could consider that a non-raw image since stuff is added.

But either way you make an image (VCDImager can do both) the result will be the exact same.

-Spawn

[Mozart]

@kedirekin

PS. I hope you'll conceed that Spawn's sector size is (more) correct for seeing if the mpg file will fit.

yes, I did this and added more informations when I wrote this


CD-ROM-XA Mode 2 Form 2:
12 bytes synchronisation
2 bytes header
8 bytes subheader
6 bytes ???
2,324 bytes data


@spawn

FYI: the default sector size of a cue/bin created by vcdimager is 2352. Thus, in your words (but not mine;)) such images are RAW images.

[axia]

@mkanar.................http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19415