no sbc= useless.

[OUTPinged_]

there. look at topic.

why do you think skilled people dont use divx4/xvid much? because their 2pass encoding mode is _alot_ less controlable than nandub's SBC.

please dont tell me here "xvid is better than divx3 cause i get a better quality when bla-bla-bla" i dont need that bs. i dont care about codec nane tag unless you give out at least 10% more compression (ie b-frames from divx5), and still have SBC.

who cares if your codec gives 5% better results if i cant make a decent encode (not a stupid automatic mode)?

people tweak sbc encodes to death, its not possible to do so with divx4/xvid/divx5.

divx4/5 developers didnt gave us direct drf control, altho they were asked 99999999times.

i dont see that with xvid too.

is it so F-ing hard to implement that? or is there any pride to not give people ability to produce a tolerable quality encodes with your codec?

you still have nandub's sources around. instead of implementing new stupid automatic 2pass modes or more postprocessing crap just implement sbc. youd get your codec 10 times better with that.

you may ask "why you need sbc and not that k3wl drf control scheme i designed myself?". well that is because learning sbc isnt that easy (at least if you dont *EDITED* with it) and one has to know how sbc works _exactly_ to produce a top-of-the-line results. i dont mean "set that variable to that value and it works with every movie" stuff.

you sure can answer "if you need sbc, use divx3". but what was the point in making new codec then? now you have just a divx4 clone with some errors fixed.

(i have tested your codec. dont tell me i dont know what i am talking about)


_______OUT____\o/_______.o>_____o/__L,,,,,_____

[saVe]

some people should be ignored....

[Dali Lama]

Show us a clip of your so called "top-of-the-line results" then show us how to do it...not replying?? I see. So your method is so good, no one can replicate it and its so good no one can see your work? Ok, bye.

Dali

[Hanty]

Koepi, Doom9, -h among some people all fancy XviD.
...but of course, they don't count among the skilled people...right Outpinged?

PS. It's embarassing to be a nandub advocate with people like you around.

[Koepi]

Hahaha, you made my day outpinged.

Sure, there is NO way you can control XviD *giggle*

You are SO right of course.

[OUTPinged_]

saVe: *EDITED*.

Dali Lama: you didnt get the point, ne? it seems some xvid fans just dont read posts if they arent worshiping xvid or arent understanding what ppl write here. ignored.

Hanty: first, i didnt name anyone here. second, i was talking about implementing sbc. no sbc = no full control over your encode. some cases just dont encode right.

ok, these responses are "he sux, cause xvid is k3wl cause its XXX and that makes it the best automatically" type. ignored.

i am waiting for the actual feedback drom people who can actually provide some answers to asked questions.

to put it more short:

1. xvid doesnt have sbc.
2. xvid may be better/worse than divx311, but that doesnt help it in hard cases.
3. automatic 2pass modes suck, no matter how well are they tweaked.
4. no xvid lame worshipper's answers here please.

5. no sbc = no manula tweaking = bad encode efficiency.

and the question:

why arent there sbc or similar level drf control mechanism implemented?

[Teegedeck]

@OUTPinged_
Please take the time and read the forum rules, you'll notice that you just have violated them by using strong language. I'll have to edit that out. Your post has doubtful qualities in several ways.

OK, now I'm gonna try and answer you questions unbiasedly:


1. xvid doesnt have sbc.
This is a statement that needs explanation from your side. I would say XviD has a pretty smart bitrate control. Most of it has been modelled after Nandub. What do you define as SBC if you say XviD doesn't have SBC?
2. xvid may be better/worse than divx311, but that doesnt help it in hard cases.
? So what?
3. automatic 2pass modes suck, no matter how well are they tweaked.
? XviD's two-pass isn't more or less automatic than Nandub's. What do you define as 'automatic' How did you get this notion?
4. no xvid lame worshipper's answers here please.
Please refrain from offending people.

5. no sbc = no manula tweaking = bad encode efficiency.
What do you define as 'manual'? I don't understand you, as the settings you can influence in XviD are pretty similar to those in Nandub. Perhaps you are referring to external stats-editors (GKnot)? Did you know that you can GKnot to edit XviD-stats-files, too.

and the question:

why arent there sbc or similar level drf control mechanism implemented?
Please, please finally define 'SBC', so we can understand what you are complaining about!

I hope my comments help you to learn what you wanted to know.

Some personal words: Remember that we are one community over here; we are trying to help each other with problems and to reach better encoding quality - it is neither wise nor allowed to attack others. Quality-related questions are mostly a matter of taste, and as SBC isn't your's to defend, XviD isn't our's.

Greetings

[Hanty]

I you are approaching XviD from a SBC point off view expecting all settings to be similar and not open minded enough to learn the new ones then you are confining yourself.

So don't blame the codec for your bad encodes.

[saVe]

someone (without telling names...) seems to feel like defending nandub here. but why does he insult other people who made a choice different from his own?
this behaviour usually results from a desperate try to stick to something that one likes but fears that others may take away from him. no one here says that nandub is a bad choice for encoding videos and nandub may even give better results than xvid for some people.
but the important thing is that xvid is developed by coders who use their spare time for it and we should be grateful instead of insulting them. they made their own codec, and they didn't do it for competition (very contrary to divxnetworks who always tell everyone how superior their codec is). xvid has fans like every other codec, and all that can be read here about quality is their personal taste.
this should be respected.

edit: did you read that? someone told me to shut up :(

[OUTPinged_]

Teegedeck, ok, i'm sorry man. offence will be *'ed out now =)

it just makes me mad.

all more and more newer codec releases give less and less control over encoding.

i was tracking xvid releases almost from the beginning, and i thought "well no luck for this release, just dumb 2pass a la divx4, but in next release theyll implement direct control". releases come and come, and they just track bugs adn add more compression settings.

i dont judge "this codec is superior because it has this and that feature and better image quality". i just look at what codec are newest releases encoded at. i dont see xvid here. i see around 4/5 of divx311 and 1/5 of divx412 releases and divx4 ones arent better quality or more efficient or what.

now here came divx5. i was asking, will people be able to code lower level control app for it. no one developer answered, and it seems like they did nothing! i see here jsut same divx4 style control (you may affect drfs with wierd stats file editing, but it doesnt give desired results every time).

i am not telling sbc is the ultimate one. its just the only one i have seen implemented which works, has been tested to death, has evolved a lot.

divx311a is old. it looks terrible at high drf levels. it produces shit too often comparing to divx4/xvid. it encodes slower than these. but it is used most by ripping groups.

ps. still no reply from developers. maybe i should flame at divx5 forum too :/

pps. waldo where are thou!!!

[Teegedeck]

The nice thing about this forum is that whatever suggestion for improving the codec you make here, it will very probably be implemented, soon. You just have to say exactly WHAT you would like to do. :)

What kind of control over the codec's behaviour would you like to have?

[Hanty]

Ripping groups use nandub because that's what they know best and they probably haven't mastered the other coecs yet. That is the case for me and my group, we are however definitely planning to do a new internal consensus when the next Doom9 codec comparassion is out.

It will either be XviD or DivX5 in the future for us, and you can count on outher groups to follow.

Another reason I think is why some groups defend nandub so aggressively is because XviD and DivX5 has less sets of options and are more accessible. They don't want it to be easy, cuz that means Joe Schmoe will be able to encode and robbing them of their |337 status.

[Koepi]

Why should any of us developers answer to such insulting, demanding posts?

You don't even clarify WHAT you want.
Just throwing in BUZZ words as if you simply don't know what you're talking about.
You got your attention.
One more insulting, useless post from you on this thread and I'll close it.

If you'd just read a _little_ bit you'd know you can control the codec _directly_ via the stats file.

If you don't like it, use other things, hype DivX4/5, do your nandub stuff (sure you know how to handle nandub? I start to doubt that.)

So, please clear up your mess and tell us _what_ you want - or stay away!

Just trying to get attention by flaming around and insulting people is a BIG no-no if you request something.
I'll try to see what we'll do with you, but this isn't a "quality" thread, it's bogus.

[Doom9]

how about using a curve manipulation tool for xvid? it is possible.. so.. who says xvid can't be manually tweaked? it sure as hell can be.. and all the recent additions that have been made to the two pass mode directly derive from nandub.. you can even use the same debugview tool to see what the codec is doing.

and to be honest, save made a very good point here. There are a lot of people, especially scene people who have a rather conservative attitude towards new things. How long did it take until ogg and AC3 became officially approved soundformats? How long for VBR MP3 and 48KHz video? And even in the late MM4 days many groups still released flaskmpeg fast motion rips.

do you really need drf control? don't think so.. what about gauge levels? I don't think xvid actually needs it as it makes smarter decisions than nandub itself. different curve compression ways have been tested and or implemented, end credits feature has been implemented, rate control can be configured (corresponds sort of to the gauge parameters in nandub)

if you take your time and analyze what you can do using gknot together with xvid, and have a look at all the xvid options you will see that it's not so much different from Nandub.. there's more than you'll think..

[Foxer]

Just woke up and looked at the sourcecode.
The keyframe spacing applied only to 2pass mode in particular..
if ((codec->keyspacing < codec->config.min_key_interval && codec->framenum) &&
(codec->config.mode == DLG_MODE_2PASS_1 || codec->config.mode == DLG_MODE_2PASS_2_EXT ||
codec->config.mode == DLG_MODE_2PASS_2_EXT))

-h accidentally forgot to change ext to int in one of those pastes it looks like so for the moment, I'd recommend not relying upon today's cvs for internal 2pass encodes unless you don't mind letting the core decide when to insert a keyframe (several shown intra frames probably won't be clamped using the i-frame quantizer range) instead of it relying solely upon 1st pass stats for keyframing.

[Belgabor]

So the only feature missing would be control of keyframes, wouldn't it? That could actually be quite nice for difficult scenes. (Helped me once getting rid of a luma invert in nandub. But XVid shouldn't have those, so ;) )

Regards

[Foxer]

And as for SBC.. Why not use nandub for that and put what it sets symmetric curve compression to into xvid? lol

It just sets the symmetric curve compression based upon the specified bitrate and 1st pass stats.

Anyway.. I guess I might add SBC calc this week if everyone agrees upon it.

[Hanty]

Oh oh oh! Can I get an X-Ray options which strips away Neve campbells clothes in my Rips of Scream!?

[OUTPinged_]

Sorry for that dirty way to attract your attention :-(

so, basically ripping group guys like me want same old boring nandub just rebuilt to use more bugfree (comparing to divx3) xvid core.

doom9, you know yourself how waldo came to that set of options, there was a terrible lot of discussion and you took a big part in it.

the good thing is, there are big numbers of people who has already mastered nandub, they know exactly how to make really efficient encodes in terms filesize/quality. just imagine what could they do with xvid codec used instead of divx3.

so the term "SBC" i was referring to was a set number of options you see in nandub. these were all settings under "SBC settings" tab.

[Foo]

Originally posted by OUTPinged_
so, basically ripping group guys like me want same old boring nandub just rebuilt to use more bugfree (comparing to divx3) xvid core.

Not this again. The same argument came up when DivX4 was released, and it is even less valid when talking about Xvid. Basically you've said "I don't care if it gives better results, I can't tweak it as much and get the (worse) results that I want" Who cares if you can control every single tiny aspect, if the results are worse? It's like the people who tell you that "vanilla" DivX4 settings give horrible results, and they make outstanding encodes with it using absurd (read retarded) settings, but of course never offer any proof.
I'm not saying DivX4 always gave better results than Ndub/SBC because it didn't.

IMO Xvid deveopment has far outpaced that of DivX4 during the beta days. In a matter of about 3 weeks it's gone from "usable" to my preffered choice. Quality is above both DivX4 and Naudub with the new curve compression algo. This is from someone who's made God knows how many encodes with both Ndub and DivX4 (many done with both, and the better result chosen). In my early DivX5 testing, Xvid is still on top, until you bring B-frames into the picture. And even then, it's a close call (quality is near eqaul in both, so the 40% speed hit doesn't seem worth it).

Man I wish all the "realease groups" would have used DivX4, or Xvid. I've seen so many bad encodes from them it's not even funny. Manual IVTC seems to be beyond most of them. Then you get into the land of shit (Ndub speak, aka GCE) and freeze frames. I wouldn't want my name on half the crap they put out.


the good thing is, there are big numbers of people who has already mastered nandub, they know exactly how to make really efficient encodes in terms filesize/quality. just imagine what could they do with xvid codec used instead of divx3.

Xvid is already highly "tweakable" at this point. Both inter/intra lock, quant smoothing, modulated (or custom matrix) quant settings (thanks Koepie for the modulated), both symmetric/asymmetric curve compression (thanks Foxer), KF boost, yadda yadda. Many of the important features of SBC are already available.

DivX 3.11 is dying, and will be put on the shelf by the end of the year. All of this is IMHO of course. Now can we lock this thread :D?

foo

[OUTPinged_]

2foxer, belgabor and others:

sbc wasnt only about modifying bitrate curve, etc. i even cant name its best settings because you need to set them all to make a codec produce a good encode. there is no equivalent to gauge or motion based drf ranges in xdiv settings.

release groups need nandub with new codec inside. thats my point.

Teegedeck:
> What do you define as SBC if you say XviD doesn't have SBC?
sbc = you can tweak just about every aspect yourself.

"sbc is only as smart as you are" (c)somebody from old doom9 forum.

> What do you define as 'automatic'
the hard set options that you can control in nandub.

> Please refrain from offending people.
sorry about that :/

>I don't understand you, as the settings you can influence in XviD
>are pretty similar to those in Nandub
well there isnt any control over gauge, no min.bitrate, no minQ, motion based curve modulation, high/low pass filters, no motion curve parameters, no motion based drf range, and (that one is big) no ecf control :..(

other options are here (crosspoint is usefull, rarely although). the need for minquality/antishit is questionable, but it was giving so nice and detailed dbview output..

one more feature i miss are these drf values at frame indicator in nandub. that feature was extremely usefull and i miss it very much too.

overall, having all options in codec properties is evil. make it identical to nandub, hehe.


>Remember that we are one community over here; we are trying to help >each other with problems and to reach better encoding quality - it >is neither wise nor allowed to attack others.

the bad thing is, doom9 webboard has grew too much and lot of question asked now is ignored. i try to act evil just to be heard at all :-(

[OUTPinged_]

2foo:

>Man I wish all the "realease groups" would have used DivX4, or Xvid. >I've seen so many bad encodes from them it's not even funny. Manual >IVTC seems to be beyond most of them. Then you get into the land of >shit (Ndub speak, aka GCE) and freeze frames. I wouldn't want my >name on half the crap they put out.

now that was offensive.

Mr. 133t ripper, who are you to claim that? people make 100s of rips. there are lower quality encodes when new ripper comes in or QC is lazy, but overall quality is way better than any amateur's considering time spent on it.

>Basically you've said "I don't care if it gives better results, I >can't tweak it as much and get the (worse) results that I want" Who >cares if you can control every single tiny aspect, if the results >are worse?

dont speak for yourself man, if you cant get better results with nandub than divx4, then it doesnt mean others cant.

i told that already, all that is needed for release groups. it doesnt concern casual rippers. if you dont need these settings then just dont interfere please.

after all you want release groups to produce better rips, ne? its you who will watch it later =).

[Teegedeck]

Originally posted by OUTPinged_

the bad thing is, doom9 webboard has grew too much and lot of question asked now is ignored. i try to act evil just to be heard at all :-(
That's not true and your conduct is the worst I've seen in a long time. I'll answer your questions and then close this thread as we've all had enough of this useless banter from your side.


sbc wasnt only about modifying bitrate curve, etc. i even cant name its best settings because you need to set them all to make a codec produce a good encode.
New codec, new options. Get a move on and and learn them.


there is no equivalent to gauge or motion based drf ranges in xdiv settings.
-Gauge was just a trick to use DivX3.11's rate-control mechanism for two-pass. It's not needed here.
-Motion based DRF-ranges were crap in Nandub (as Nando pointed out he only left the tab because he granted any users' wishes) and would be crap in XviD.

sbc = you can tweak just about every aspect yourself.
Get off the couch and learn how to do it then!


well there isnt any control over gauge, no min.bitrate, no minQ, motion based curve modulation, high/low pass filters, no motion curve parameters, no motion based drf range, and (that one is big) no ecf control :..
Gauge: see above. Min. Bitrate: Could be done, doubt it would be meaningful, as it mostly countered strange behavior of DivX3.11 at low bitrates. MinQ: Liked that, too, about Nandub, but PSNR turned out not to be a reliable quality-indicator; it doesn't equal human perception. Motion-based curve-modulation and everything else that's motion-dependend:doesn't work well. You can do it though, if you use GKnot with XviD (go read the GKnot-guide!). Motion-masking will be upcoming, and that looks more promising. ecf-control sounds interesting, but the developers are aiming to improve the codec, and not rely on external stats-editing-tools.

other options are here (crosspoint is usefull, rarely although). the need for minquality/antishit is questionable, but it was giving so nice and detailed dbview output..
Shit is a typical problem of DivX3.11. You don't know that?!?

one more feature i miss are these drf values at frame indicator in nandub. that feature was extremely usefull and i miss it very much too.
Then go ask Avery Lee for that feature, not the codec-developers.

Now this it, you've been helped enough. You've exhibited a lack of basic knowledge of even Nandub (that you state to use so well, but Koepi and I doubt that) and an unwillingness to read and understand the guides and FAQs on new methods of encoding. Instead you waste bandwidth on a forum for people who already read and understood the available material _and_ the forum rules. I'm still being too friendly with you.

Thread closed.