IDEA : If OGG can handle errors in streams, could we use something like vcd ?

[Actron]

Ok heres what im thinking about :

i know, there has been some discussion why not putting avis into an cd track without error correction, just like a (s)vcd does.
This wasnt possible, because the avi format cant handle errors, if they occur.

but now we have ogg, and i read, that it can handle errors, without stopping or crashing. So it should be possible to make use of the 100 additional mbs on a cd, when we dont use error correction, isn´t it ?

greetings

actron

[ProfDrMorph]

should be possible. Someone on another board ( PowerDivX Forum ) postet that he randomly deleted parts of an .ogg file with a hex editor and the parts that were not damaged still played fine.

I want to try to burn an .ogg file like a (S)VCD, too. But I don't have time to do something like this at the moment. Would be interesting to hear if someone else could do it successfully. Btw: when creating an .ogg file to burn on a CD without error correcting I suggest that you set the max. keyframe interval very low ( I would say the value should be as high as the FPS (and not higher or lower) of the video ). Otherwise you *may* lose a couple of seconds when the CD gets damaged.

[ChristianHJW]

MCF will support mode 2 form 2 ( not sure here ), so you can have 795 MB on one 80 min CD. Dont know about Ogg, maybe Tobias can clarify ...

[Neo Neko]

I was the guy swiss cheezing the OGG file and it works just fine so you can indeed do an OGG in 2 of 2. :) I do alot of silly things like that.

[Vanos_b]

How can you burn a CD in Mode2Form2 (?) because I tried it with Nero (that I usually use) and other several programs but by now I only failed. I saw in a forum that someone did it with CDRDAO, but when I downloaded it, it said that is for audio CDs; and I couldn't find a GUI for Windows. I would really like to test if Ogg can correct a certain amount of errors, becuase I find it hard to believe that an error in the header or index could be fixed (does it save a backup of these at the and of the file as I "heared" MCF would?).

[MaTTeR]

I've used ISO Level2 Mode2 with Nero constantly while burning all my Divx and Xvid encodes. I never had any problems using this mode and wasn't aware that it's not suppose to work with AVI's. I also used this same mode for Ogg files without issues. So are these settings you guys are speaking about?

@Neo
What burning app are you using?

[Mozart]

@ vanos

GUI (http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/axatis/XProject/XDuplicator/index.htm) for CDRDAO.

btw: CDRDAO is good for a lot of things (i'm using it to burn SVCD images and extract/make images of discs, for example)

[Neo Neko]

Under Windows I mostlty use Nero. Sometimes CDRDAO. Under Linux though every thing almost uses CDRDAO at some point. I have not burned a 2 from 2 disk with an OGG movie. But it should indeed work. Swiss cheezing the video has little effect on it. So CRC and recovery data while nice are not actually necessary. I would prefer it for my AVI though. One or two misplaced bits and your AVI is toast.

[ProfDrMorph]

I do alot of silly things like that.
Without guys like you and me who try silly things and experiment we wouldn't have all the things we have now ;). So keep on doing this. I just can't wait for DivX5 to be released to test it against XviD ( after I encoded a bunch of SVCD for a friend ;) This really keeps me from trying new things like burning an .ogg file to a Mode2 Form2 CD. I planned to this even before this thread here was posted ).

[Neo Neko]

You have not check the front page yet have you.

[Vanos_b]

@Mozart: Thanx for the GUI. I'll try it.
@MaTTeR: Here's a dumb question: How do you actually write the CD because it my case when it's about to start burning it ejects the CD(-RW 663 MB) saying there is not enought space. I've been trying to put a 701 MB AVI file on it (the CD in mode 2 should have 750+ MB, right?). Is there any trick? I've done everything as usual, only that I selected Mode2/XA in the dialog. Do I have to enable other features? Thanx.

[MaTTeR]

@Vanos_b

Turn the overburn option on in the Nero prefs which I think is located under the File menu;)

[Vanos_b]

Sorry, but it doesn't work. Even with overburn activated (99mins) it sais there is not enought space. I'm using an LG 16/10/40, that otherwose works perfectly. BTW: overburn should write data on the space of leadout, and I don't think it has anyting to do with sqeezing more data in the same data space on the disk by leaving error correction out. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[MaTTeR]

@Vanos_b

Are you sure your drive supports overburn? It seems new so I'd assume it does. How much data are you trying to write to an xx CD?

[unplugged]

Originally posted by MaTTeR
I've used ISO Level2 Mode2 with Nero constantly while burning all my Divx and Xvid encodes. I never had any problems using this mode and wasn't aware that it's not suppose to work with AVI's. I also used this same mode for Ogg files without issues.

:eek: Whaaaaat??? :eek:

Do you MEAN that are already using 80min CDs at near 800 Mb? :)
nice :p is using 2352 byte sectors...
how?

In my technical knowledge I can say that mode 2 form 2 CDs are recognized by common CD readers at low speeds such as 12x-16x, or if they spin at full (50x) speed, in real performance they transfer at relatively low speed (12x-16x).
And also, these security measure is (for me) the reason for this "low" speed transfers: the lack of error checking portion per sector (2352 bytes of data over 2352).
This slow behaviour often happen with Playstation CDs (when you try on your PC), infact I think that almost the totality of these CDs are mode 2 form 2.

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by unplugged


:eek: Whaaaaat??? :eek:

Do you MEAN that are already using 80min CDs at near 800 Mb? :)
nice :p is using 2352 byte sectors...
how?

That's exactly what I mean. Here are my NERO(5.5.7.3) settings while burning to Imation 80min CD's-
ISO Level 2
Mode2/XA
Secondary Volume Descrip-Joliet
Allowed all relaxed ISO restrictions
Character Set-ISO 9660
No Multi-Session
DAO
Finalize CD
CDRW-LiteOn 40x16x10

I'll be honest, I don't really understand all the technical aspects of CD burning. What I do know is when I burn my Xvid's/Divx flicks it works just fine. The CD's have been played back without issue on different CDROM drives. So is this what you call Mode2/Form2?

[unplugged]

Originally posted by MaTTeR

So is this what you call Mode2/Form2?

At this point I'm not sure of its exact name, but I know there is a kind of ISO CD format (mode ? form ?) that permits use of full CD capacity *exclusively* for data by "excluding" CRC/recover data bytes from basical/classical sector scheme.

classical ISO CD format:
sector size 2352 bytes (2048 bytes data, 304 bytes CRC/recover info)
alternate ISO CD format: (VCD?)
sector size 2352 bytes (2352 bytes data, no bytes for CRC/recover info)


P.S.: mode 2 form 2 that you are using is mode2-XA? :( sorry for my not good technical competence

[canadian_fbi]

what does it say under "compilation" when you're actually burning it? because i'm doing a 750 mb test file now under the specs you listed and it tells me:

ISO1 (Mode2/XA) 85:17.43
CD-ROM (ISO) 855 MB

and gives me an error after 98% burning. and the only way i can even get it to start burning is by forcing overburn to 90 minutes.

[MaTTeR]

With Imation CD's I usually burn an AVI file of about 712MB and then Nero says something like 8xxMB. Next movie I burn I'll give you more accurate numbers.

Your 755MB file is to large. Try around 710MB and then see what it says.

[canadian_fbi]

i wonder if you're actually burning mode 2 form 2 cds then, or if you're just going into overburn territory. because i think with an 80 min cd-r, it should be able to go up into the upper 700s. has anyone actually gotten 750+ mb on an 80 minute disc?

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by canadian_fbi
has anyone actually gotten 750+ mb on an 80 minute disc?
I've never been over 714MB, anything more produces an error. So that was my question about the Nero settings. I'm doubting it's true Mode2/Form2.

[Neo Neko]

No at this point he is indeed going into overburn territory. I have checked inside Nero and the only way to do mode2(ISO-Level 2) form2 is with Neros VCD or SVCD template. Which will not work in a pinch. I have been playing arround with mkisofs, but to the best of my knowledge I have found no way to do form 2 with it. Mode 2 yes form 2 no. I am hunting for software or workarounds that will do this though. But no paydirt just yet. I will post back when there is. I have gotten some CD-I authoring software. CD-I was the first and is the basis for mode 2 form 2 yellow book I believe VCD and SVCD.

[canadian_fbi]

here's a page on roxio's site that shows the sector layout of the different modes. i think what's displayed as "mode 2" in nero and every other cd burning app i've seen is mode 2 form 1.

http://www.roxio.com/en/support/cdr/cdsectorformats.html

i wonder if one could even read data normally off the cd if it was in form 2 though... this link makes it seem like drives would have a problem with it.

[unplugged]

Originally posted by Neo Neko
No at this point he is indeed going into overburn territory. I have checked inside Nero and the only way to do mode2(ISO-Level 2) form2 is with Neros VCD or SVCD template. Which will not work in a pinch. I have been playing arround with mkisofs, but to the best of my knowledge I have found no way to do form 2 with it. Mode 2 yes form 2 no. I am hunting for software or workarounds that will do this though. But no paydirt just yet. I will post back when there is. I have gotten some CD-I authoring software. CD-I was the first and is the basis for mode 2 form 2 yellow book I believe VCD and SVCD.

This is what I would listen :)
Probably mode 2 form 1 is Mode2/XA, when you use this format the only difference from classic Mode1 is that space is reported as total space taken by data + CRC/recover (2048+304=2352). (when you right-click to the properties of Mode2/XA CDs data can reach up to ~800 Mb when the source data was ~700 Mb...+ 100 Mb CRC/recover data)

About XA, eXtended Audio of course...
...in fact also audio CDs can contain up to 80min of music in 80min CDs :) but however **800** Mb of data (RAW sound or WAV).

[Vanos_b]

I have to agree with unplugged: Mode2/XA is Mode2 Form1 that is slightly different from Mode1 Form1 (something like for 4 for I-don't-know-what taken from the ECC, but the sector size for data is still 2048). So the question stays: how can anyone write a Mode2 Form2 CD, because I haven't heard about any other program except CDRDAO (that I couldn't figure out, even with the GUI) that could do that.

[yokem55]

I haven't tried it yet, but cdrwin has settings for "mode 2, form 2"...that's in the data backup area that makes ISO's..I'm not sure it would work...

[MaTTeR]

Originally posted by yokem55
I haven't tried it yet, but cdrwin has settings for "mode 2, form 2"...

I see Mode2 but not Form2:confused:

[yokem55]

ooppss....I could've sworn that "form 2" was in there the last I checked....shucks....

[Neo Neko]

Well here is another project for some coders. I don't think I would honestly be able to do it myself. The ISO specs are well doccumented. We either need to take the Existing VCD & SVCD standard and bend it to our will or possibly create our own book for use with formats that can recover from loss. We could take the existing source of mkisofs and moddify it for whitebook type ISO output. This would let us output a directory and contents of our choice in a whitebook ISO immage to feed to nero or most any other program for writing. We could call it something like M-CD for just general media. Not anything so specific as just video or audio. But any format capable of error recovery. We could boost the storrage of an average CD by 100Mb for AV storage.

[yokem55]

I did some reading up on the windows version of cdr doa (the pdf documentaion that came with the command line, not the gui, which I think is useless), and I think I figured out on how to make the .toc file for cd-xa mode 2 form 2 (which has the larger user data space) for regular data (non-audio) files. I can't really test it right now since I don't have an OGM file that is large enough to really test it. I will be encoding Star Wars ep 1 today, and I will try to get it in at around 750-790 mbytes. I'll be back in a while (probably later this afternoon) with the exact toc file and the command line parameters I'll be trying.....

[Vanos_b]

@Neo Neko: Where are these "well documented" ISO specs, because I couldn't find them?
@yokem55: I'm very anctious to find out what you've achieved

[Neo Neko]

Should be at www.iso.org. Other places have it as well. Hrmmmmmm. Shooping carts at iso.org? they want to sell em? Damn is ther not some backwater *.txt file somewhere. There has go to be. The spec was rattified back in 1988. I will keep digging.

[Vanos_b]

Thanks for the link but they want money for the document, so I'm still searching. Is there anyone that knows what the header/subheader/edc fields of the sectors actually contain? I know that the sync field contains a 0, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0 sequence for identifying the start of each sector, the header the Minutes, Seconds, Sectors data (but relative to what?) and the subheader contains data type (but what do you actually put in there?). And how do you calculate the edc? And finally is there anyone who know the specs of the ISO9660/Joliet, I mean how the files are on the disk, where the TOC is and what fields it has (pretty much everything)?

[Neo Neko]

The mkisofs source should be very telling. We could go from there and just moddify it to write the larger sectors and everything else for ISO whitebook. What would be really interesting is to see if we could not take and moddify the layout and tweek it even more. Would that break its readability?

[chthonous]

I had a couple of near successes with Mode2 Form2 burning with CDRWIN using custom made cue sheets. I took an .ogm file and an .ogg file and made an ISO out of them in CDRWIN. It was about 762MB so I would know that it was not just overburn. Then I used this cue sheet first.

File "c:\test.iso" BINARY
Track 1 mode2/2336
Index 01 00:00:00
postgap 00:02:00

The only problem was that my ISO file size needed to be an exact multiple of 2336. So I opened up a hex editor and filled in some zeros in the end of the ISO file until I had exactly the right file size. This ISO burned successfully in CDRWin but Windows could not read it.

From there I tried another cue sheet.

File "c:\test.iso" BINARY
Track 1 Audio
Index 01 00:00:00
Postgap 00:02:00

This also burned correctly, and provided even more room on the 80 min cd because I think Audio sectors are 2352 bytes per sector. When I put the cd in Mediplayer 6.4 would only recognize it as a CDA file. (OGM movies don't make pretty music.) I tried to get it to play in zoomplayer but it wouldn't recognize the format. Is there anyway a player could be modified to allow a user to define what type of file a CDA track actually is?

Well, those are my two failures. I don't know if they would be of any help to anyone, but I just thought I would post them anyway.

[Neo Neko]

Yeah just changing the cue sheet will have no benifit. Your ISO was layed out with a specific format. When you burn it as another format the whole thing becomes unreadable. You would first have to convert the ISO to the format you wish to burn. Just changing a cue sheet will do no good.

[Peters]

Of course you're right but if the goal is just to store the avi then it works, i tried with success

just for the fun...

With the cue-audio method, i burn an iso (with avi 690 Mo) on a 650 MB CDRW . CDRWIN burnt that like a 68 mn CDA

Then i used EAC (or CDRWIN) for extracting the false wave track
track01.wav, i take an hex editor to search the "RIFF..." header, finally i used Topsplit for cutting the unwanted beginning of the file.

So i got a new file renamed in movie.avi and all is fine,it plays fine, no errors with virtualdub scan.

[Neo Neko]

Well if that is all you want to do rename your *.avi files to *.iso and burn em. Unless your program checks for corruptions(most of em don't) it will get burned to the CD. You should then be able to rip the track and rename it from ISo back to AVI. But that is dificult and tedious. :p

[Peters]

Maybe my post was not enough precise (sorry for my english)
i made short...

my cue, no iso...

FILE C:\movie.avi BINARY
TRACK 01 MODE2/2352
INDEX 01 00:00:00


Burnt with CDRWIN on a Generic CDRW2 recorder, media CD-RW 650 Mb Memorex, speed 4x

Extracting with EAC, cutting with Topsplit.
I made other tests, burning 790 Mo on a 80 mn CD-RW, all the process fine..

BUT it's just for fun! showing that's possible, of course i don't bet on my CD longevity...
:)

[ProfDrMorph]

the extraction of the AVI file could be done easier: just use check "Do not write WAV headers" in EAC's Compression Dialog. Then it automatically extracts the AVI file. In theory. Haven't tried it so far.

[Neo Neko]

No I understood you. A cue is just a data sheet that tells a burner soft what type of raw file sys is contained in a *.bin file. The *.bin file is the raw files layed out for burning. The difference between cue/bin files and iso files is that iso files contain the whole immage and bin files are missing the cdr headder info which is supplied by the cue file. I believe CDRwin supports the burning of ISO as well.

Originally posted by ProfDrMorph
the extraction of the AVI file could be done easier: just use check "Do not write WAV headers" in EAC's Compression Dialog. Then it automatically extracts the AVI file. In theory. Haven't tried it so far.

Interesting. But I would still prefer to access it off of the CD. I found some of the source to mkisofs and have been reading it. It has alot of the CD data structures layed out as C structures. It is quite informative.

[Peters]

Originally posted by ProfDrMorph
the extraction of the AVI file could be done easier: just use check "Do not write WAV headers" in EAC's Compression Dialog. Then it automatically extracts the AVI file. In theory. Haven't tried it so far.

It doesn't work because there is not only a wav header, you need a multiple of 2352, so the burning program completes with 0 the beginning of the file

[MaTTeR]

@Neo Neko

Backwater ISO specs(ISO/IEC 11172) might be found somewhere here, though I'm not sure what I'm looking for. Draft versions and are not final but perhaps it helps.

http://www.mp3-tech.org
:D

[Neo Neko]

I have no idea if this is something I have the skills to code myself. I sure would like to be able to do it. But as a starting point for anyone we need to get some basic ISO9660 specs and doccumentation. I don't think any of us can afford to buy em right now. Of course I have no idea how francs convert to dollars. ;)

@matter
I am not sure about that joint standard. Interesting site though. I will have to give it a read.

[chthonous]

I'm not sure because I'm not a computer expert but I think I might have found some ISO 9660 documentation.

ftp://ftp.ecma.ch/ECMA-ST/

check out the pdf file called ECMA-119.pdf


Hope this helps :)

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by chthonous
I'm not sure because I'm not a computer expert but I think I might have found some ISO 9660 documentation.

ftp://ftp.ecma.ch/ECMA-ST/

check out the pdf file called ECMA-119.pdf


Hope this helps :)

It does not say ISO9660 but it indeed contains quite a bit of CDFS info. Could be a good starting point.

[yokem55]

Okay, I apologize for not reporting back sooner....here is what I found I was able to do:
1) I was able to burn the OGM file to disk in CDROM XA mode2 form 2 without much problem....after making the .toc file on my own (shown below), I was able to load it up in the CDR DAO gui proggy in the "write" tab and use it to burn the disk. This however took some effort to figure out that I needed to use RAW mode for my ancient mitsumi burner.

2) The disk was not readable in windows explorer. I was however able to recover the .ogm file to disk through the program isobuster (you can find it doing a quick google search), and it played back without error. (at first I thought I had some synch issues, but it was just from the excessive cpu load that the xvid post-processor was giving) In isobuster I right clicked on the track and selected "extract raw but convert to user data".

Here is the text of the .toc file that I used:

CD_ROM_XA
TRACK MODE2_FORM2 COPY
DATAFILE"phantom.ogm"

Overall, while inconvenient in first having to extract the data from the disk, this method of getting an additional 100mb out of standard cd's is useful. The quality of the xvid+vorbis in ogg at 791mb was definitely an improvment over the standard 700 mb file size. Perhaps as the codecs improve, this extra 100mb won't be worth the extra work. But perhaps if some solution to make the movie directly playable off of the disk were made, these 800mb cd's would make a very nice improvement.

[Neo Neko]

Even if compression improves another 100Mb will always be usefull. At least that is my thought on the subject.

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by Neo Neko
[B]Even if compression improves another 100Mb will always be usefull.
... i fully agree ... why store 100 MB of error correction data if we dont need them. BTW, a normal 80 min audio CD will contain 815 MB of pure audio info .. very easy to calculate :

80 min x 60 secs x 2 channels x 44100 samples/sec x 16 Bit

and this is without the other existing data like track numbers etc. .

The only thing we need now is a way to read this data from the CD in real time when playing the movie .... like PowerDVD or WinDVD do with S-VCDs ( 795 MB ). It should be possible with a playback DirectShowFilter i guess ....

BTW2 : Great work guys ! Its a pleasure to return from vacation and see great things happening here ...

[unplugged]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW

The only thing we need now is a way to read this data from the CD in real time when playing the movie .... like PowerDVD or WinDVD do with S-VCDs ( 795 MB ). It should be possible with a playback DirectShowFilter i guess ....

A very good and flexible tool (a must have not only for movie storing) would be a *generic* driver on the way of DAEMON Tools that wraps "800Mb RAW CDs" as 800Mb RAW-CDFS filesystem.
(.SYS or .VXD system component as wrapper, such as CDFS.VXD do with audio CDs... for who know this old driver)
Oh... I hope DEAMON team will read this post... :D;)

So when you insert your 800Mb Mode2/XA Form 2 CD in your PC the system/driver will join it as RAW CDFS compact disc.

not real for now
but not too fantasy

[ChristianHJW]

Allow me to bump this up again ... its too good to forget it.

Anybody knows by chance what mode and form a S-VCD is using and how WinDVD or PowerDVD can read the data ( 795 MB on a 700 MB CD ) on S-VCD playback ? Is there maybe another DirectShowFilter we could use for our purpose, like with the 'abused' iviaudio.ax for AC3 playback ?

[Neo Neko]

It is ISO Mode 2 Form 2 A.K.A. ISO-9660 Whitebook spec. I am still digging up info on it, but it should be something that any experienced coder especially a linux coder could do with realitive ease methinks. Probably way out of my coding skills league though. I was thinking it should be possible to moddify the source to Linux mkisofs for this purpose. I have gotten the source and have been sifting through the code. Plenty of usefull structures and some info on the CDFs. I can't say I have a full understanding of the code or how to moddify it though. But I will keep wading through it as time permits.

[yokem55]

Another linux proggy that has win32 binaries that I fooled around with is "vcdimager" (www.vcdimager.org) but I didn't have much success with it. As far as I can tell, it basically builds a mode 2 form 2 .bin file with a .cue sheet to go along with it. The documentation I think says you can use it to put any file in the bin file with the larger mode 2 form2 user data space, but I wasn't able to get it to work....I had planned on asking about it on thier message board, but didn't get around to it yet....

[ChristianHJW]

I will ask the author of TSCV ( www.ttool.de ) about it ... he is a very nice and helpful person ...

This seems to be the way to go, why reinvent the wheel when the whole thing is already existing and working for S-VCDs ... just the DirectShowFilter for direct playback from the disc might be a problem, but we'll see .... i was using a similar tool to VCDimager called VCDGear when i was trying to extract the MPEG2 data from a mode 2 form 2 S-VCD to HDD .... Windows alone cant access the data.

[mNEMOsyne]

hi christian!
did you get any answer?
please don't loose this idea. it would be nice to get +100mb on each cd.
maybe we could get koepi to work on the mkisofs source or joerg schilling, coder of cdrecord...
i'd really like to see that working....
regards mNEMO

[chepe36]

have anyone tried contacting the developers of nero or fire burner or something like that i know that nero is developed by a big company but who knows maybe.
please this is a great great idea!! we have to know how to burn in level 2

[101]

Originally posted by chepe36
have anyone tried contacting the developers of nero or fire burner or something like that i know that nero is developed by a big company but who knows maybe.
please this is a great great idea!! we have to know how to burn in level 2

hello Nero Team!

i have a suggestion: there are new formats emerging that are error tolerant just like mpeg1 and mpeg2 (VCD and SVCD). one of them is ogg... recenlty i have created some video files with vorbis sound codec, divx5 video codec multiplexed into ogg. the result is error tolerant, so i could burn it on cd without error correction just like (S)VCD... thus havin ~800MB on a 80 min cdr

is there any way that you could support this kind of burning? with a plugin or something that is hidden from the main public if you are affraid of the support.

fyi, i've already burned such an ogg file as normal audio cd and then grabbed it back and it played without problems. but i need such a cd that i can read directly from, just like VCD.

thanks in advance,

- attila.


the developers of nero are rather flexible... hope they listen.

[chepe36]

anything yet?

[Neo Neko]

No nothing yet. If anyone knows any coders or can code themselves we need to get some recruting done. This is a project I do not think I can do myself, yet I would love to see done. I were to do so by myself it would be a long arduous process.