HDMV menu In/Out effects questions

[paulemasters]

Hello:

I have 'lurked' here from time to time, but this is my first post.

I have a some experience authoring DVDs with DVD Lab Pro and Sony DVD Architect. Including writing scripts.

My BD authoring package is NetBlender DoStudieo and DVDLogic IGEdit.

I have been doing considerable investigation on HDMV In/Out Effects using IGEdit.

I know that buttons can't overlap. (Well...they CAN but if they do unpredictable things may happen in a random way.)

In my tests on effects, I have found two things than 'can' overlap and when they do IGEdit gives a warning. I have created some effects in which overlaps happen. They play as desired using TMT3 with out problem or error message. I haven't tried a real player yet. However, I know that each player may implement the specification differently and therefore, some may work OK and others not. I am hoping to avoid as many problems as possible.

First, windows.

It appears that there can be multiple windows for an In or Out effect.

What is the advantage? That is, why would you want / need more than one?

If an effect object is not entirely with in the defined 'hole' in the window there is an overlap warning. Is that a problem?

Why not have the 'hole' the size of the screen? Then there is no worry about overlap.

What is the window for? What is it's purpose? What does it do for me?

Second, effect objects.

The order of the objects in an Effect determine which is seen on top.

If they overlap, there is a warning. Is that a problem?

People have posted on forums that they have seen discs with secondary menus 'overlaying' other menus. I doubt that the overplayed menu is active - that is, what they see is an 'effect' and then a menu page with a background containing the non active menu with the active menu on top of it. Therefore, having effect objects overlap each other appears to be allowed. On the other hand, those disc authors may be using custom software.

Sorry for so many questions, but the documentation I have access to is very skimpy. I can not afford to purchase the BD specification.

Thanks for everyones time who can answer these questions, or suggest where to look.

Paul Masters

[7@mp3dotcom]

Welcome Paul, and thanks for your work on the DS forum:)
I too have been a long time lurker here since the time when DVD burners first broke the $1,000.00 price mark.
You should get a response soon, this forum usually provides answers...
I'm trying to transition from indie DVD authoring to Blu Ray, and slowly getting there thanks to doom9 and a few other forums.

[mp3dom]

Hello:
I know that buttons can't overlap. (Well...they CAN but if they do unpredictable things may happen in a random way.)

They can as long as one single button (that overlap) is displayed. This is the case with two buttons on the same BOG (generally used for shows actual audio/subtitle track in use, even if actually a lot prefers the use multipage and no overlap buttons)


It appears that there can be multiple windows for an In or Out effect.

I think the maximum is 2 since you can have at max 2 effect objects (each of it with its proper window).


What is the advantage? That is, why would you want / need more than one?

I think basically for buffer optimization, more smooth effects and to allows to have two effects too distant each other whiile having less buffer usage.


If an effect object is not entirely with in the defined 'hole' in the window there is an overlap warning. Is that a problem?

I've never tried it, so I don't know if (i.e) Scenarist allows to compile such IG.


Why not have the 'hole' the size of the screen? Then there is no worry about overlap.

Because the bigger is the window, the longer the playback will be. If the window cover the full hd screen (1920x1080) every frame of your animation will use 4 real frame of playback. That kind of effect will be very jerky. If you reduce the window you can achieve 1 frame of playback for 1 frame of your effect (smooth animation). Steps are 1, 2 or 4 frames depending on your window size.


The order of the objects in an Effect determine which is seen on top.
If they overlap, there is a warning. Is that a problem?

Never tried it. Again, for pressed disc I would avoid to compile an IG with such a warning.


that is, what they see is an 'effect' and then a menu page with a background containing the non active menu with the active menu on top of it. Therefore, having effect objects overlap each other appears to be allowed.

Effects are just plain animation that can comes from (i.e.) an After Effects animation (sequence image of PNGs) or an animation made by 'hand' using already used graphics coming from the IG itself. In your case (animation that overlaps) probably they've used After Effects (or a PNG sequence)


On the other hand, those disc authors may be using custom software.

Maybe they're using BD-J which surely allows overlapping buttons and probably overlapping effects and so on.

[paulemasters]

Hello:

Thanks for the reply.

I am aware of BOGs. I meant two currently displayed buttons. I should have been more precise.

2 Windows: Yes, I just tried to add a third in IGEdit and it says only 2 are allowed.
Not sure what you mean by 'max of 2 effects objects'. I have created an Out effect with 15 Effects.
However, I just tried to add a third Composition Object and it says only 2 are allowed.
Learn something new (and frustratingly annoying!) every day.
Thanks for the information.
I will have to rethink and redesign what I have been working on.
(I did create a second window once, manually. I just duplicated the first one. I got an overlapping warning. So, it appears that the 'holes' can't overlap. That will require more thought as well.)

I have heard about the '4 frames' before. However, I have not found a way to tell if thats what I am getting or not.
Do you know the 'size' ranges for the 1, 2 and 4 frames? Or how to avoid getting other than 1 frame per effect?

As to the overlapping effects:
I agree with you. If I were doing this commercially I would not create anything with a warning as it might cause replication or playback problems.
However, this is for my own use so...
When I asked DVDLogic I was told: 'Warnings are not critical if everything works at all.' And: 'My advice is create all without any warnings of course.'
Which I agree is very good advice.

I think BDJ has the same 'problem' with overlapping buttons. That is, don't do it.

Thanks very much for the information. Your comments have been very helpful.

Paul Masters

[mp3dom]

Not sure what you mean by 'max of 2 effects objects'. I have created an Out effect with 15 Effects.
However, I just tried to add a third Composition Object and it says only 2 are allowed.

My fault, I meant max 2 composition objects.


Do you know the 'size' ranges for the 1, 2 and 4 frames? Or how to avoid getting other than 1 frame per effect?

It changes in both horizontal and vertical extension. I can't get a close number as it's not easy. 1 frame in general require a small window. Generally in Scenarist you do your effect then resize the window as much as possible and then you see the real number of frames required for the animation.


I think BDJ has the same 'problem' with overlapping buttons. That is, don't do it.

BD-J doesn't have problems regarding overlapping buttons. It's written in the specs that they can overlap. The limitation is only for HDMV.

[paulemasters]

Thanks for the reply and additional information.

Paul Masters

[rik1138]

It changes in both horizontal and vertical extension. I can't get a close number as it's not easy. 1 frame in general require a small window. Generally in Scenarist you do your effect then resize the window as much as possible and then you see the real number of frames required for the animation.


I think a rough estimate is anything under 1/4 of the screen (either one 'quadrant', or 1/4 of the height all the way across, etc..) can do 1-frame animation. Anything from 1/4-1/2 of the screen will be 2-frame animation, anything more than 1/2 is 4 frame animation... Usually menu bars aren't more than a 1/4 of the screen, so you can get smooth animation on them easily enough...

[Pelican9]

Hello:...
You can load your IG to BDedit and run it or edit it or just see how it looks like from another viewpoint...

[paulemasters]

rik1138:
Thanks for the estimate. That's a big help.

Pelican9:
I create the menu in PhotoShop in Scenarist format PSD. Import that to IGEdit to create the dlies file.
Using that PSD and a custom PhotoShop script to create the effect and modify the dlies file (instead of doing all the work and calculations by hand). Then back to IGEdit to create the pies file. To DoStudio where I have a very short and simple project - compile that and play from the folder with TMT3.
Sounds messy and time consuming, but I have a simple 'menu' setup. So, once the menu is created, I can test an effect through all that in only about 1 minute.
That way I can kind of see how it will look in the real world - or as real as you can get with TMT3 and not taking 5 minutes to burn a disc.

Thanks to all for your help.

Paul Masters

[paulemasters]

Hello:

Relating to 2 windows. I did some testing and found that if window 1 was used but not window 0 that the effect appears to be OK in IGEdit but it does not display in TMT3. I verified that by 'reversing' the test and it displayed in TMT3 as expected. That is, the part that didn't work does and the part that did work doesn't. (If you can follow all that! (g).

I am wondering if that is a BD spec. issue or perhaps something in IGEdit or TMT3 for that matter.
As I say, looking at the effects in IGEdit all is there and as desired. It just doesn't all play from the compiled file.

Thanks for any help.

Paul Masters