The Topsy-Turvy World of BD-RB

[setarip_old]

I test all of my BD-RB creations on both my SONY BDP S360 standalone player and my computer under PowerDVD 7.3 (Both with no updates).

Until today, any time I created a DVD9 or DVD5 full disc backup in which the menu proved to be a problem, it was either a playback problem ONLY on the SONY (e.g. many Universal releases) or on both the SONY and under PowerDVD.

Today I processed "Law Abiding Citizen" as a full disc to DVD9 - and for the first time, I was confronted by a disc that continuously looped the main menu under PowerDVD but played perfectly on the SONY.

And now you know why I test all of my BD-RB creations on both my SONY BDP S360 standalone player and my computer under PowerDVD 7.3 ;>}

[Capsbackup]

I made a full backup to BD9 of Law Abiding Citizen and it works fine on my S360.
However, for me playback from PowerDVD 7.3 is always uncertain! I have updated it to the most current though.
I use IMGBurn to create an image before burning, and test that image with PowerDVD. Sometimes the image will play, sometimes not.
Same is true for the burned BD5/9.
I also use TMT3, which I use to play back from folders option. It is very rare for TMT3 to not play back anything. I mostly use both of these software players to check basic functionality of playback and lip sync.
But I have found, even though PowerDVD may not play some of these BD5/9 backups, my Sony does play them back. Which is why I will always burn to disc and test on the standalone, for true compatibility check! :p

[jdobbs]

For me standalone playback is the only reliable test. Software players just all seem to be too flakey. When a manufacturer does a firmware update, you have to test it to death -- because it can make your product stop selling. Software developers have a different mindset, thinking of their product as less finite and believing that all it takes is a "quick fix" if you didn't test well enough.

[setarip_old]

@Capsbackup But I have found, even though PowerDVD may not play some of these BD5/9 backups, my Sony does play them back.

I guess you haven't "enjoyed" the experience of converting many of the Universal releases to full disc DVD5s or full disc DVD9s:>}

[Capsbackup]

@Capsbackup

I guess you haven't "enjoyed" the experience of converting many of the Universal releases to full disc DVD5s or full disc DVD9s:>}

Actually I have done some full disc backups of Universal releases to both BD5 and BD9, and have begun experiencing "joy" with them!:p
The playback on my Sony is where I have success though, since that is where I watch my movies from.

[jdobbs]

I've been looking with the Universal titles a lot -- and the output structure seems to be identical to the other (DD+) PiP features... except there appears to be more BD-J interaction -- which makes me think that's where the problem may be. Weird -- especially considering the fact that they all work fine on BD-25 with no changes at all. More-and-more I think it may be a firmware bug in the Sony that is beyond a workaround. I've just been doing BD-25 backups of those discs when I want a full backup -- since blank BDs are so cheap now.

[deank]

Year ago I posted my concerns that different brands of BD players follow different logic when it comes to detecting the media. I'd guess that some players would have their firmware 'block' specific functions when DVD is detected as media.

I'd also suspect that some players check the media first (as DVD or BD-R) and then re-route all the workflow, other players don't care about the media, but the structure itself... and at the end, some other players which require BD-R discs for real BD backups/structures and will treat DVDs as AVCHD/AVCREC/BDAV (if supported at all).

I think that the only true tests are with BD25/BD50 discs.

Dean

[Capsbackup]

I've been looking with the Uiversal titles a lot -- and the output structure seems to be identical to the other (DD+) PiP features... except there appears to be more BD-J interaction -- which makes me think that's where the problem may be. Weird -- especially considering the fact that they all work fine on BD-25 with no changes at all. More-and-more I think it may be a firmware bug in the Sony that is beyond a workaround. I've just been doing BD-25 backups of those discs when I want a full backup -- since blank BDs are so cheap now.

Year ago I posted my concerns that different brands of BD players follow different logic when it comes to detecting the media. I'd guess that some players would have their firmware 'block' specific functions when DVD is detected as media.

I'd also suspect that some players check the media first (as DVD or BD-R) and then re-route all the workflow, other players don't care about the media, but the structure itself... and at the end, some other players which require BD-R discs for real BD backups/structures and will treat DVDs as AVCHD/AVCREC/BDAV (if supported at all).

I think that the only true tests are with BD25/BD50 discs.

Dean

I agree with both of you, both sound logical. BD media is much more reasonable now.
And I guess if I really want a BD5/9 backup of a Universal title, or another that has PiP, I know a way to make it work! :)

[setarip_old]

Has anyone successfully created any type of backup of "Repo Men" (DVD5, DVD9, BD, etc.)?

I ask for two reasons:

First being it's yet another one of "those" Universal releases, that contains everything but the kitchen sink, including two versions, PIP with DTS Express audio, Universal's different than everybody else's menu structure, etc.

Second (and, perhaps, more iportant in the overall scheme of things regarding making backup copies), it is purported to contain "Cinavia" audio watermarking protection that even impacts SONY BDP S360s.

From what I've read, it may not show up at the very beginning and could/does show up at various points throughout playback (as either silencing the audio or generating interference).

Therefore, to properly check it, one would have to play the disc from the beginning and, without pause or interruption, watch it for the duration...

[jdobbs]

Has anyone successfully created any type of backup of "Repo Men" (DVD5, DVD9, BD, etc.)?

I ask for two reasons:

First being it's yet another one of "those" Universal releases, that contains everything but the kitchen sink, including two versions, PIP with DTS Express audio, Universal's different than everybody else's menu structure, etc.

Second (and, perhaps, more iportant in the overall scheme of things regarding making backup copies), it is purported to contain "Cinavia" audio watermarking protection that even impacts SONY BDP S360s.

From what I've read, it may not show up at the very beginning and could/does show up at various points throughout playback (as either silencing the audio or generating interference).

Therefore, to properly check it, one would have to play the disc from the beginning and, without pause or interruption, watch it for the duration... I haven't tried it, but am very interested. I'll check it out. Are there any discussions about it on the AnyDVD forums? I'd also like to see what happens when you reencode the audio to AC3 via the NicAudio filter.

Of course you know my opinion about all of these schemes. DRM efforts are like pissing in the wind. They all suffer from a fundamental flaw -- in order to sell they have to playback at the consumer end. If they can be played... they can be ripped. Pure and simple. The only way to protect anything digital that is designed for consumer viewing is to lock it in a vault... and it's a bitch to try and get anybody to go in there and watch it.

[setarip_old]

@jdobbs If they can be played... they can be ripped.Don't sell this one short. It apparently includes hardware and/or firmware modifications to standalone players as part of the scheme.

My speculation is that, as in past years, it'll either take quite some time or, more likely, someone will trip across a ridiculously simple solution - like applying a black marking pen to the inner ring of a CD to defeat SONY's multimillion dollar protection scheme ;>}

[jdobbs]

@jdobbs Don't sell this one short. It apparently includes hardware and/or firmware modifications to standalone players as part of the scheme. But so do all the other schemes (CSS, AACS, BD+ etc.) The problem is that the playback device is in your home and the player's hardware/firmware is within your reach. A clever user can deconstruct it and use the same algorithm for decoding/removing. I think Cinavia will be a headache for a short while -- it'll be broken quickly, and then the industry will move on to another "Dinavia" or "BD-Double+ Extreme". That's why I always say these things are laughable. It's like Tic-Tac-Toe, once you look at it you see that there are only so many ways it can be done at a macro level. Did you note Nic's comment that changing pitch can get past it -- hmm... gives a good hint as to how it works, eh?

One problem with encryption and protection is that anything that can reasonably work requires some type of "shared secret" -- and with consumer devices the secret has to (at some point) also exist locally (in your home). The only reasonable debate with DRM isn't "can it be done" -- but more "is it ethical" or "is it legal" (on both sides of the issue).

But all this is just my humble opinion... :)

[Added] A quote from James (Slysoft Development Team) on the Slysoft forum -- who for obvious reasons is much better attuned to this sort of thing than most of us:

IMHO you're giving the Cinavia protection much more attention than it currently deserves

Apparently from discussion there the only disc that is currently known to contain Cinavia is "The Losers".

[Revgen]

Cinavia protection ultimately costs more money. According to my understanding, Cinavia is optional for disc makers. AACS is already expensive enough, so I doubt there are too many studios lining up to do it. In any case, it's not going to put much of a dent in p2p piracy since it's not going to stop ffdshow from playing it back. Cinavia would probably be more effective against traditional pirates selling BD-R's on the street to consumers.

[Racem22]

Nope I have a copy of Repo Men as well and it does not contain Cinavia. Still only confirmed case is "The Losers". Also, I'm using a Sony BDP-S360(with latest firmware 007) to playback my backups and my backup of "The Losers" played all the way through without audio cutting out, so it's safe to assume that it doesn't have it. So setarip_old and jdobbs I believe both of you guys have the S360 so I think you're both safe. :) Its possible that they will implement it in a firmware release down the line here so my suggestion would be not to upgrade your firmware unless you absolutely have to. Cheers.

[setarip_old]

@Racem22 So setarip_old and jdobbs I believe both of you guys have the S360 so I think you're both safe. Its possible that they will implement it in a firmware release down the line here so my suggestion would be not to upgrade your firmware unless you absolutely have to. Yes, I made this observation and suggestion in the thread I started (in the "Decryption" sub-forum here)about 3 weeks ago...