Too much hostility may lead to excessive use of administrative power

[w4tt4n4b3]

This community has dedicated and high end user members and many experts.
Their expertise adds great value to the community and we all should be grateful for that.
The big problem on the internet as in real life though is when we are the leaders of something big and important we may fall into a big trap. The trap is to start taking ourselves more seriously than the circumstances demand.

Because I rate this community very highly and respect it, I would never do anything stupid to put it into any kind of danger.
I am a phd law student and a lawyer, I am not stupid or of low perception. But I also am member in dozens of forums and moderator and administrator in few of them.
I may be a low end pc user but have been spending much time in forums to know how internet works.
This is the first time in my 5 years internet experience that I lodge a complain and I mostly do it because I think great power and authority brings great responsibility.

I consider it a lack of good manners, I could say malicious though it can sound harsh, to be an admin and act like a police investigator when a forum member does not give you any hint or suspicion of rules violation.
When you don't have enough evidence in your hand and you try to make a member confess a rule violation it only creates a hostile atmosphere.
I have never encountered any such behaviour in the past anywhere else. I think it's not polite to impose penalties or send warnings to members with the suspicion of rule violation when there is no proof of rules violation.
This is anti-democratic and a bit totalitiarian behaviour even if it may sound a bit extreme.
I come from Europe and we may see things differently here.
I am not asking for any warning or future penalty to be reverted or withdrawn, I am only asking for less hostile attitude when you don't have solid proof of rule violation...

If with this post I violate any rule, let me know so I walk away before you have to take any additional measures against me. Freedom of speech is the least prerequisite το participate in any kind of community.

And before I close this big post let me copy/paste two paragraphs from the doom9.org/About page...
These are words of the creator of the site...
"I know that not everybody appreciates this site and some might say that this is just a nice facade for piracy. But I strongly disagree. It's up to each and every visitor of this site what they do with the information contained therein. Piracy would not be more or less of a problem if this site wasn't there, but many people might not be able to execute their right of fair use if sites like this did not exist.

So basically my motives are 2-fold: First I like to be able to put something big together and on the other side I like to help people to execute their rights which the movie industry would like to take away. I own more than 400 DVDs and I will continue to buy them but I will not sit back and watch as they try to strip the copyright act of its most important part - the fair use clause. Copyright should help benefit society and not the personal accounts of some movie studio execs.
I thought these things applied for the forum as well...
Bolds by me...

[neuron2]

You agreed to abide by our rules. The mods have seen it all and if something looks to them like a possible rule violation then they have the right to ask you for clarification. If you won't give a straight answer, but instead start demanding justifications for the inquiry, then you lose your case by default, which is what happened in your case. If you are not attempting to bypass our rules by deception, then you should have no problem with providing the asked for clarification. If your source was legitimate according to our rules and your clarification succeeded in showing that, then you could have continued with it. You can find many cases here where users provided asked-for clarification and that was the end of any moderator intervention.

[w4tt4n4b3]

How can you judge if my source is legitimate or not? How can you know it when you don't know the actual content of the video?
Secondly, you know the personal use and fair use clause. Right? You must know that anything destined for personal use is not illegal.
There is no reference or mentioning in my initial posts that the stuff may be illegal.
Isn't it obvious obvious that there is a contradiction when someone reads the following? "It's up to each and every visitor of this site what they do with the information contained therein. Piracy would not be more or less of a problem if this site wasn't there, but many people might not be able to execute their right of fair use if sites like this did not exist.
So basically my motives are 2-fold: First I like to be able to put something big together and on the other side I like to help people to execute their rights which the movie industry would like to take away. I own more than 400 DVDs and I will continue to buy them but I will not sit back and watch as they try to strip the copyright act of its most important part - the fair use clause. Copyright should help benefit society and not the personal accounts of some movie studio execs. "

I thought the same rules apply for members and those who are on top...
There was no copyright infringement or any hint of it in my thread. So if I want to ask help for a personal video of mine how can I prove that the video file I want help for is a personal video of mine and not illegal? Will you judge it by the name of the file? or I should not post any details of any video file.
I think encoding, editing and all this stuffs is destined to be used for video files, right?
I believe that my questions have some reasonable basis. And I think there is some inconsistency in your way of thinking because when you talk about illegal stuff the criterion is the law, not our personal ideas about what is illegal or not...

Edit:
I understand that this site may be associated in the minds of some people with piracy and maybe they accused you of supporting piracy. My opinion though is that by following the policy you did in my case, you retreat from the inspiring passage Ι quoted in my initial post and I repeated here. I totally agree with the views of the creator of the site and I totally support his aspect of view. But by being so strict I think you are killing the message of the text. And that leaves a taste of sadness and bitterness.
I have nothing more to say, if it's matter of survival of this site to follow a strict and unfair treatment of members in order to prove to people that you do not assist, promote or encourage the illegal obtainment or use of video files then ok, so be it... But I think this logic is wrong because no one ever could hold you responsible for aiding or encouraging piracy or copy right infringement since you can't know what use I am going to make.
This is how I see it and may be my point of view is far too liberal to be accepted. Thanks for listening to it though.

[neuron2]

when you talk about illegal stuff the criterion is the law, not our personal ideas about what is illegal or not... The criterion is the policy that Doom9 chooses to enforce in his private forum, and to which you agreed when signing up.

Regarding your specific case I asked a direct question that would have allowed me to determine to my satisfaction if your material was legitimate according to the Doom9 criterion. You refused to answer and instead demanded justification for my inquiry. You may appeal moderator decisions directly to Doom9.

[Shadowmeph]

I am new here and I just read through this and all I can say is this. In the Forums world the Admins are the Gods, so you must obey by the there rules. In my personal opinion if you have a disagreement with the rules take it up with the Admins and don't make a Public issue.

[RunningSkittle]

w4tt4n4b3, please read this announcement in the newbie section:
http://forum.doom9.org/announcement.php?f=6

The rules are there to protect the community, please respect them and the mods!

[w4tt4n4b3]

if your material was legitimate according to the Doom9 criterion.
If you want members to be able to abide by the rules you have to clarify in the rules section that illegal means illegal according to doom9 criterion and state which criterion is this since you define illegal material in a different way that law does.

w4tt4n4b3, please read this announcement in the newbie section:
http://forum.doom9.org/announcement.php?f=6
The rules are there to protect the community, please respect them and the mods!
Thank you for the link, but I had read this in the past and according to the text, my file is not illegal. It was not downloaded from anywhere, it was not a movie and if you want to be honest and straightforward then you should revise or delete "8. This board only supports conversion under "Fair Use"... because you deemed as illegal something that falls into the category "Fair Use"...

@ Shadowmeph...
If you read clearly my post then you should have read that I am not trying to solve a personal case here but I am trying to make a point that to me is not clear anymore what is the doom9 illegal file criterion and Fair Use.
I agree with all the rules in doom9 as far as they are defined in a way that do not create big misunderstandings. And rule clarification is not a personal matter to discuss with any admin, it is not private, it promotes the better function of the forum and the community. I have nothing more to add. People read and can understand.
And of course I had to intension to create any kind of controversy or trouble to anyone or the forum.

[neuron2]

And of course I had to intension to create any kind of controversy or trouble Oh sure, that's why you chose this thread title:

Too much hostility may lead to excessive use of administrative power

[RunningSkittle]

W4tt4n4b3, if you read this:
2. No help will be provided in regards to downloaded files. We won't walk the extra mile to clarify the legality of your files. We believe that this is unproductive and the members shouldn't put Doom9’s Forum in this position. Yes, we know that there are plenty of perfectly legal downloadable movies available.....and there are also plenty of illegal, copyrighted ones. To keep us from having to decide which is which, we request that you not mention downloaded movies. Never. Also, don't mention any bootleg DVDs that you got from E-Bay or an Asian DVD/VCD Retailer, or anywhere else. Note that we're reasonable in applying this restriction.. if you make it clear from the getgo that the content is legitimate (your best shot at that is mentioning where other members can get the content) discussion is allowed.

Then you should know perfectly well the stance that the admins and the community take. You also would not have to answer an admins question with: ...So I can't understand why you are bringing such matter into discussion. :confused:

[Tagert]

Well the good fellas above my post have summed it up pretty much.

You agree to the rules upon the entering of this forum.
Some forums are ruled with less force.
However this one must be ruled harder since it deals with more 'volatile' questions and discussions :)

This is one of my most favorite forums and with the help of the strict moderation it will continue to prosper :)

[Revgen]

One of the reasons I suspect the rules are in place and why mods are hard on them is because Doom9 has been portrayed unfairly as a den for "pirates and hackers", especially after the AACS hack was discussed here. Nevermind that many members are actually Linux users, work for the studios that put out the DVD's, and some even work software companies. :rolleyes:

The last thing doom9 wants is to be shut down for allowing illegal activity like what happened to piratebay.

[setarip_old]

@W4TT4N4B3

Hi!

Actually, it appears that you've caught the moderators in a generous mood. I personally, as well as others have been "busted" with sanctions for violating the following, under the caption "Sanctions - or what awaits you if you don't stick to the forum rules": If you wish to contest a strike send a PM to Doom9 with a reference to the post in question and an explanation why you think the strike is not justified. In case of a suspension you can send a complaint to strikes at doom9 dot net. The email is only to be used in case of a suspension and you forfeit your right to an appeal if you use it to contest a regular strike not leading to a suspension. By publicly complaining about a strike in any way (starting with pointing out "I've been striked for this and that"), or go badmouthing this forum and its members on another board you also forfeit your rights to an appeal and the strike will be permanent without exception.

[Inventive Software]

Doom9 is a private forum. Freedom of speech is not given, you are regulated in what you can and cannot post. This is set out in the terms and conditions you signed up with.

This is a quote from a moderator's signature on another board I'm signed up to.

Just having the right to free speech doesn't give one cart blanch to be offensive or rude or abusive or DISRESPECTFUL.

[Doom9]

Shadowmeph gave a perfect summary of the ugly truth. Although I consider myself to be more of a benevolent dictator than god ;) But even a dictator can get rid of freedom of speech and you're even accomidating me by signing that away when you sign up.. so you can't blame anybody but yourself for it because we tell you about it up-front (along with the waiting period and other things not everybody likes).

You can hardly fault a moderator for erring on the side of caution - it is certainly not done out of malice but out of concern for the board and its future existence. And we do have an explained appeals process in place - there are people who very successfully make use of them. And when you've been around for a long time, certain things just raise a flag because you've seen it time and again. Unfortunately that's not always obvious to the person on the other end - but it's the equivalent of a cop stopping you and asking you to take a breathalyzer or walk in a straight line if he's seen you swerving on the road (even if you might have been doing that to avoid an obstacle the cop might have overseen). And what you need to do there is the same you need to do here.. play by the established rules and you'll be fine. Pretty much everybody knows that getting into that cop's face isn't going to do you any good - neither is getting into the mod's face. You don't agree you can always lodge a complaint directly but you risk me asking you the same question and I'm the highest authority you can face on this board.

I could go on a lengthy discourse now, but you know who the powers that be go after, so I think it's best if I assume that anything I say can and will be used against me - so I'm not going to give you the reasoning for why certain things are done the way they are being done. And I can tell you a lot of times I do want to give a lengthy explanation but this is the reason why I don't go into legal arguments and why you'll find me very uncooperative when you try to raise such issues.

Just consider having to explain the provenance of a source every now and then the necessary evil of having all this information at your fingertips. You certainly won't find a decryption forum of this magnitude in most other places.

[LocalH]

And in comes the mighty Doom9 to lay down the law :)

I will say this - while I occasionally disagree with the manner in which threads are closed for rule 6 violations, I do not think Doom9 should change the policy, because of the highly litigious nature of the modern world. If discussions of how to process downloaded content were allowed, there might not be a Doom9.org in the future. This of course does not apply to downloaded content that can be proven to be legal to acquire in such a fashion, and not to violate any license agreement to transcode (archive.org material, for example).

If you want a forum where you can discuss how to process downloaded content, please go start your own and assume those risks yourself. Doom9 has wisely chosen not to assume those risks to ensure that a valuable resource for video enthusiasts stays available.

[Ghitulescu]

In EU you can contest the decision of the policemen, especially when this is a repeated behaviour ;) However, you have to do what s/he says (in the first instance).

Forum.doom9.org, I agree, should not change its policy, it's one of the last fortresses that were left, however it's not really "in the spirit of the law" to take a decision without a clear guidance. Should it have been a rule (or an amended existing one) that says, "The moderators will decide what is legal and what is not - you can appeal their decision to Doom9", that would have been really ok. Alternatives: statement of jurisdiction or a definition of what is legal or what is illegal.

The twin German forum is quite clear in several issues as it states the jurisdiction under which it operates (it would have been illegal otherwise) which solves many issues with a single shot - not the last being that no decision has ever contested (at lest not to my knowledge).

[Doom9]

@Ghitulescu:
I could go on a lengthy discourse now, but you know who the powers that be go after, so I think it's best if I assume that anything I say can and will be used against me - so I'm not going to give you the reasoning for why certain things are done the way they are being done. And I can tell you a lot of times I do want to give a lengthy explanation but this is the reason why I don't go into legal arguments and why you'll find me very uncooperative when you try to raise such issues.
Was especially meant for you. It is none of anybody's business where this forum is hosted and where the operators are located. Any inquiry as such is considered an invasion of privacy (or you're just trying to launch a lawsuit, both of which launches all my protective reflexes).

And who do you think gets to decide what "content of questionable nature" is... that's not a legal definition.. clearly, that's a decision only the moderator team can made. The rule's interpretation is always up to the mod squad - it's like that on every board. You can disagree with the ruling, but since every board is private and can enforce whatever rules they like, you need to respect the decision that is being handed down and leave it at that.

And being on the board of the German Doom9 forum I can tell you that it's not as simple as you think (and since they discuss things privately just as we do I cannot tell you any more than that).

[Malaksbane]

I've seen closed threads, the way in which it is done frequently looks a tad hostile, he's right about that. I'd not rely on people reading (lengthy) forumrules too much, but send them a pm or e-mail when they join, stating the no-download rule and perhaps the intentions behind it.

There is no 'no-download' rule in the forumrules, who's rule #6 is about "... warez, cracks, serials or illegally obtained copyrighted content ...". The announcement wich does list the 'no-dowloads' rule linked to earlier is located in a subforum and is not reachable (for me at least) when browsing the forum. If the latter is the standard used by moderators it might be more userfriendly to put it in a place that is actually reachable, or pm the thing to new members.

Not wanting to discuss downloads at all is rather understandable, but it might help if one confronts new members with this rule before they start posting.

[RunningSkittle]

There is no 'no-download' rule in the forumrules, who's rule #6 is about "... warez, cracks, serials or illegally obtained copyrighted content ..."....

:confused:

[LoRd_MuldeR]

:confused:

He probably means that legal downloads exist, so downloaded video isn't illegal per se.

However it's quite understandable that moderators ask for clarification when a user mentions "downloaded" video in their posts.

If the video really was downloaded 100% legally, it shouldn't be too hard for a user to clear this up...

[Malaksbane]

It was quoted from the forumrules (http://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htm).

There is never a question asked about the legality of the download, when a download is suspected the thread is closed and the poster reprimanded.

If, in general practice, the rule is 'no downloaded material' then the forumrules should be updated to reflect that. That would make it clear for everyone.

[4Dude]

You agreed to abide by our rulesIt amazes me Neuron2 how many people DO NOT READ THE RULES when they check the box that says they agree with them and will abide..

[Malaksbane]

Maybe I need to repeat it, the current practice is not described in the rules.

[LocalH]

There is never a question asked about the legality of the download, when a download is suspected the thread is closed and the poster reprimanded.
That's not true. I have seen many locked threads where a mod asked the OP what the original source was, and they either evaded the question or outright admitted to having illegally distributed material ("I downloaded it from the net", "gave to me by a friend", "no longer have my originals"). Also, I have seen many threads where the OP did not take measures to obscure their source's filename and thus garnered an automatic lock because this made it evidently clear they were processing illegally distributed material. Also note, rule 6 does not merely apply to downloaded content - if I give you a copy of a DVD illegally, and then you come here to ask for help processing it, rule 6 still applies (even if my source was legal for me to copy, once I gave it to you it became illegal).

I have also seen many cases where the source was "kind of" suspect, i.e. the OP is processing material that is not generally legally available in their country (Japanese-only anime sources come to mine) and while there is no outright evidence of it being illegally downloaded, the mod who closed the thread always gives the OP the option of clarifying via PM whether the source is legal or not. These threads almost never get reopened because in many (but not all) cases, the content is illegal for the OP to be processing.

I have also never seen a situation where a thread is locked if the poster is using legally downloaded content licensed such that they can indeed process and transcode it. To determine whether downloaded content is legal requires knowledge of both where the file was downloaded in the first place, and any license attached to the content. Thus, one could legally ask for help with processing public domain content found on archive.org, or content released under a Creative Commons license that allows such processing. I have never seen a thread locked where the OP was asking for help with processing such material. Note that I have seen threads locked where the content itself was legally downloaded, but there was no license attached to it - in cases like this, the default is roughly analogous to what copyright law allows along with the fair use/fair dealing exceptions found in the law of various countries (I say roughly because fair use in the US generally paints a somewhat wider brush than the analogue of fair dealing found in other countries). In such a case, if a person has such a thread locked, but they feel they are operating within the law that would apply in their jurisdiction, there is always the option of contacting the locking mod and explaining the situation fully.

[lych_necross]

There is an old saying that pertains to this topic: "I think he doth protest too much". I'm not saying this about anyone poster specifically, just about users who complain about rule 6 violations. Copyright laws aside, Doom9.org is a privately owned, and operated, forum and is allowed to enforce whatever rules the owners want. If a user is upset that his/her thread was locked, discuss it with a mod in private and get on with your life. Also, if the movie in question was legally downloaded, the OP should have no problem providing proof of purchase.

[Doom9]

Maybe I need to repeat it, the current practice is not described in the rules. Wrong
You just don't agree with our interpretation of "content of questionable nature" but that's your problem. There are many other rules that can be interpreted differently than the mod team does - but again, it's not up to you.

Since I'm so fracking sick and tired of all the blah blah about our rules, I'll upload a new set as soon as I can figure out where to (seems my current ftp access has the wrong root), which after the rules lays down the laws on usless discussion like this:
The interpretation of these rules is solely up to the owner of this forum and can change at any time without prior notice. If you're unsure about what constitutes a breach of a rule, ask a member of the moderator squad or refer to the most recent precedent in the forum (though since interpretation can change, we cannot guarantee that any precedent you may find still applies so in order to be on the safe side, ask a moderator if the precedent still applies).

And rule 6 will state

No warez, cracks, serials or illegally obtained copyrighted content! Links to content of a questionable nature (e.g. anything you don't own and/or have downloaded (http://forum.doom9.org/announcement.php?a=36)), asking for, offering, or asking for help/helping to process such content in any way or form is not tolerated.

[Malaksbane]

Actually, no, there is a legally binding agreement which defines what is permitted and even if not particularly likely, this might be used by parties seeking to inconvenience doom9 owners.

That's not true. I have seen many locked threads where a mod asked the OP what the original source was, and they either evaded the question or outright admitted to having illegally distributed material ("I downloaded it from the net", "gave to me by a friend", "no longer have my originals").

That confirms what I said, legality isn't checked, what happens is that basically a hint of the material being processed is downloaded is sufficient for a threadlock.

That's fine, I understand doom9 wants to stay clear of (illegally) downloaded material, my point is to be more specific about it in the rules. Right now there is a discrepancy between the rules - #6 specifically - and how they are applied, or seem to be applied.

Also note, rule 6 does not merely apply to downloaded content - if I give you a copy of a DVD illegally, and then you come here to ask for help processing it, rule 6 still applies

Rule #6 is a baseline, I don't suggest replacing it, but adding a sub for the explicit case of downloaded material.

... processing material that is not generally legally available in their country

People travel. And internet exchange & trade is rather common these days.

... the mod who closed the thread always gives the OP the option of clarifying via PM whether the source is legal or not.

As far as I have seen such threads they usually don't. And few people really know what is legal and what not, or what license 'accompanies' their AV-material.

These threads almost never get reopened because in many (but not all) cases, the content is illegal for the OP to be processing.

Switching to pedantic mode; that is unlikely because, most material (childporn excluded) can be processed legally no matter where I got it from. It's redistribution that is typically illegal.

... To determine whether downloaded content is legal requires knowledge of both where the file was downloaded in the first place, and any license attached to the content.

What do you mean with 'attached to the content'?

what copyright law allows along with the fair use/fair dealing exceptions found in the law of various countries

They tend to restrict redistribution, not acquisition.

Why not avoid discussions on what is legal and what not, keep it simple and prohibit discussion of processing downloaded material in any shape or form (maybe with exceptions for material that is obviously PD or GnuCC-like ). As seems to be the practice. That is clear and it seems to be what the semi-hidden announcement in Newbies states.

[Doom9]

Let me make this simple for you:

Rule 17) No discussion about the rules or their interpretation.