MKV as DVD replacement possible?

[FredThompson]

I'd like to convert a few thousand DVDs into AVC MKV files. My hope is to convert them into a format with data and physical size advantage which should also be somewhat independent of storage medium and playable on a variety of soft and hard decoders such as WD TV, PC, BluRay player, etc. I am not interested in downsizing or deinterlacing at all. The original frame size and interlace/progressive structure must remain.

The DVDs have 2 primary structures:

1) Homemade captures with very simple menus (no chapters, no angles but they DO frequently have CC embedded in the VOB)

2) Full commercial discs which can have very complex structures.

Converting #1 above to AVC en masse is simple. The data will be ripped into various source directories using basic DVD ripping software to yield single-file source, even if the file is longer than the 1G DVD VOB standard. When a batch has been ripped, they'll be encoded with x264. Goal is to use VBR to yield files half the size of the original. This will allow comparison with new captures from DVR (DirecTV with TiVo) of the same file. If a new MPEG2 version of an existing source is significantly more than 2X the size of the new MKV it will probably be encoded and stored as the new baseline. DirecTV varies the bitrate, sometimes dramatically, which can affect quality, of course.

However, IF simple profile MPEG4 can truly give the 2:1 data ratio I seek without perceptible quality loss, I'd prefer to use it for such simple sources and convert the CC into subtitle files to accompany the encodes. Is simple profile MPEG4 capable of this?

Converting #2 is not so simple. In many cases, the menu structure is critical. If at all possible, I'd like to keep all the functions of the DVD control structure such as chapters, angles, audio tracks, subtitles, etc.

I have VERY limited experience with h.264 and mkv. The last time I dabbled with MPEG4 was pre-AVC/VC-1 when the propaganda stated equal quality with MPEG2 in half the size...it didn't pan out.

Now, mkv supports multiple audio and subtitle tracks. There are quite a few threads here about converting commercial SD and HD discs to mkv. What I don't see, or haven't found, is something akin to DVD RB Pro which can take a DVD structure and yield an mkv equivalent, preserving all the user interface of the source DVD. Does such a thing exist? If so, where?

If not, are there any automated ways to take a DVD IFO/VOB set and generate the various components which go into the mkv? The more automation, the better, as long as 2-pass x264 and custom AviSynth filters can be used. In this case, the highly complex DVDs would not be processed, only the simple ones.

[thewebchat]

Why would you want to re-encode something without deinterlacing it? Especially for all those cases of telecine and not actual interlacing. As far as I know, you just need the following:

Decrypt
DGIndex
DVD2MKV chapters thingy
Automagic encoding
Automagic muxing

Looks easy enough. I think MEGUI might even cover most of these.

Edit: Oh, right, if by "all the user interface," you mean DVD menus, have fun with that. MKV menus have been vaporware from the start so the chances of that happening are less than 0.

[FredThompson]

You made a lot of erroneous assumptions.

Interlace /= telecine.

Interlaced video has twice the temporal information of progressive video with the same frame rate.

"Converting" Interlaced video to progressive video destroys the temporal information. No matter how sophisticated the conversion, there are always problems. Try it on a subject which is spinning perpendicular to the camera. Look at high motion subjects on regular and double-rate LCD displays and you'll see a huge difference.

"DVD2MKV chapters thingy" is a concept. I'm looking for a manifested tool for the concept. There is precedent:

http://forum.corecodec.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=54
http://forum.corecodec.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1973
http://forum.corecodec.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2966

Given MKV is a container which supports chapters and some rudimentary menus have been seen "in the wild" there is ample reason to believe robust control structures should be possible. MKV is a container, just as ISO or AVi are containers. DVD Menus are nothing more than video "chapters" with some control logic.

I should have stated MKV is not a requirement. Functionality is the goal, MKV is a perceived means to portability.

[nm]

"Converting" Interlaced video to progressive video destroys the temporal information.
Not if you bob it or use some advanced full-rate deinterlacing filter. Otherwise you'd need an old CRT tube to display those interlaced sources properly. Modern display equipment is progressive.

No matter how sophisticated the conversion, there are always problems.
That's true to some extent, but the better deinterlacers can do a pretty decent job -- better than what you get by letting the cheap LCD TV deinterlace on playback.

If I were you, I'd just rip to full disc images. If some player can't handle them, write a script to encode the video titles to a supported format but keep the original images around.

[creamyhorror]

Given MKV is a container which supports chapters and some rudimentary menus have been seen "in the wild" there is ample reason to believe robust control structures should be possible. MKV is a container, just as ISO or AVi are containers. DVD Menus are nothing more than video "chapters" with some control logic.
I would like to see some of these rudimentary "menus".

I would also like a tool that extracted all parts of a DVD separately and encoded them all according to settings I specified, but I doubt it exists as yet.

[thewebchat]

After a very brief googling, I found http://www.videohelp.com/tools/ChapterXtractor

I believe that if you add this to the chain I proposed earlier, that essentially leaves us with only the menus missing. Since MKV menu implementation has a 0% chance of ever being finished, as MKV development is essentially dead, I think this is as close as you'll ever get.

[neuron2]

Since MKV menu implementation has a 0% chance of ever being finished, as MKV development is essentially dead What is your reliable source for this claim?

[creamyhorror]

After a very brief googling, I found http://www.videohelp.com/tools/ChapterXtractor
Wouldn't DVD-Decrypter extract chapters just the same? (Although I think I've actually used ChapterXtractor before...)

In any case, the kind of chaptering FredThompson was looking for is actually a command structure as well as a playback interface it. Which, as you pointed out, doesn't exist and may not for some time to come.

A command/menu structure would be nice to have, it's true.

[FredThompson]

Not if you bob it or use some advanced full-rate deinterlacing filter. Otherwise you'd need an old CRT tube to display those interlaced sources properly. Modern display equipment is progressive.Yes, but that's only a requirement during playback. My goal is to reduce physical space and data size. Bear with me as I explain some of the background thought which led to this post: I was merrily going along using DVD RB Pro and HC but now, the physical size and cost of optical discs has become prohibitive compared to SATA drives. I've been trying to devise a way to keep all my "stuff" while my physical living space is going to be cut in half (I'm getting married.) 25 years of VHS tapes which still occupy a complete wall and another complete wall of discs on spindles have created a problem for this packrat. So..what to do? One option is to rip to ISO as you suggest. But...what if I those can be shrunk in half with virtually no quality loss through current encoding? Things are very different now than they were even 5 years ago. I have more than one computer so once the files are pulled from the source disc, it would be great to re-encode them to half the current size with "unused" computer time. I've also realized that something like the Amahi home server could be used to uncouple the use of the data from its storage medium. I already do something similar with DV. The raw source is encoded to 4:2:2 interlaced MPEG with TMPGEnc at a bitrate of 8,000. The result is about half (maybe less) than the full DV data size with virtually no visual difference. I never filter the DV. MPEG2->MPEG4, in my hoped-for use, would have only some light filtering in an attempt to reduce macroblocks and mosquito noise. Have you seen the dedicated mosquito removal inline filters? Seems to me the same functionality will happen soon enough in GPUs so the goal is reducing the data set size and leaving the heavy lifting for the playback method.
That's true to some extent, but the better deinterlacers can do a pretty decent job -- better than what you get by letting the cheap LCD TV deinterlace on playback.No, it's true period. Interlaced is 2 interwoven sets of still images representing 50 or ~60 distinct time periods per second. Additionally, each of the two interwoven sets of images is shot from a slightly different view point. My goal is to economically use time (CPU to encode) to take advantage of the current size and cost benefits of hard drive storage. Even with motion-compensated methods I still see glitches if there is high motion but it can be visible in other places as well. There is an episode of the History Channel show "Save Our History" (I think that's the title) which has a house in the background as the camera zooms out. The thin wood pieces which separate the window panes (can never remember what those are called) play havoc with deinterlacing. Anything which is rotating can cause problems. The artificial scan lines effect of alternating black horizontal lines can cause problems. Try it on something like flipping hair or acrobatics or motor sports. All things considered, I'd prefer to compress the data size, not convert known data points into interpolated guesses with half the temporal information. A good way to see the result is to compare interlaced source and a deinterlaced version of the same source on 60 and 120 Hz large displays.If I were you, I'd just rip to full disc images. If some player can't handle them, write a script to encode the video titles to a supported format but keep the original images around.I'm keeping the commercial originals in storage. The homemade stuff, which includes capturing the VHS tapes, doesn't have complex menus so AP MPEG4 seems safe enough to me now. If space and cost weren't issues, I'd just keep doing what I'm doing.
I would like to see some of these rudimentary "menus".I'm still looking for a good example. One of the posts I mentioned above has a dead link. My guess is such a menu is a simple branch at the beginning and was only to pick language and subtitle. There's a post at the KMPlayer board stating MPC supports them but KMPlayer does not.I would also like a tool that extracted all parts of a DVD separately and encoded them all according to settings I specified, but I doubt it exists as yet.Right. That's what I see. Parsing is handled by a number of programs such as DVDShrink, DVD Stripper, PGCEdit, DVD Rebuilder, etc. BR RB Beta looks very promising but the bluray disc format is still used. There are very few players which will mount an ISO but almost every current player works with VOB. Look at things like the WD TV players. They'll work with mkv but won't mount a virtual disc.

@neuron2, howdy! How's kicks?

edit: I'm having trouble finding the forum link I read earlier today which supposedly linked to an MKV sample file with a menu. The link didn't work but the thread mentioned a simple menu which used the first 2 chapter points of the sample data. I'll keep searching.

AutoMKV Chapters: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=85641
101 things you never knew you could do with Matroska: http://www.mod16.org/hurfdurf/?p=8 and http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=59561
maybe the anime subculture will figure this out first...

I guess the easiest option would be to add DVD XML and pointers to MKV ignoring the pesky little detail of licensing. Where's derrow and why hasn't he done what I desire :P

[BetaBoy]

What is your reliable source for this claim?

He is talking out of his a**. We have and continue to be active with Matroska development leading towards 2.0. As I have stated here at D9 a few times we have completed EBML 2.0, which is a complete rewrite and is already included in CorePlayer 1.3.x and our upcoming 2.0 release. We are also working on LibMatroska 2.0 which will also have a new Matroska Parser Library utilizing Core-C (our modular ANSI C language), these are also a complete re-writes. However, we have sloooowed things down a bit for 2.0 to allow 1.x to gain adoption ( no need to mess with what works ), stopped devel? Hell no.

[BetaBoy]

On Matroska menus... As we discussed a while back about them. The proposed menu system is 100% reliant on the means to display them (software and hardware) as the specs state. So while the elements can be defined, the means for playback still needs to know the how/where/what to do with them. So technically you could just stuff a current 'Cocktail' menu in Matroska as long as the means to handle all the 'web' elements are handled in the player.

On DVD Menu Extractor (or DMX as we call it), here it is in SVN. https://svn.matroska.org/svn/matroska/trunk/DvdMenuXtractor/

[FredThompson]

Thanks for the link. I noticed it's gone from the closed thread in the corecodec forum.

Out of curiosity, is the mkv support in commercial devices such as WD TV a result of direct consultation with CoreCodec or did it just happen? IIRC, the main restriction with DVD and BD control structures is the copyright on the set of functions and resultant licensing fees to support...restriction of competition and an administrative staff...my opinion.

We're looking at a horse and cart situation, yes?

I did notice some discussion in the WD TV hobbyist areas of modified firmware, including discussion of menus in mkv but no realization of the concept. There's also a post in your forum about QuickTime-like menus as HTML with a browser for playback.

Maybe an IFO set with mkv component files instead of VOB might be an interim method for proof of concept but IFO includes absolute pointers based on sectors.

[creamyhorror]

There is an episode of the History Channel show "Save Our History" (I think that's the title) which has a house in the background as the camera zooms out. The thin wood pieces which separate the window panes (can never remember what those are called) play havoc with deinterlacing.
If you're intending to backup many interlaced DVDs, you're not going to find x264 is as efficient as you hope. x264 is optimized for progressive encoding.

I'm still looking for a good example. One of the posts I mentioned above has a dead link. My guess is such a menu is a simple branch at the beginning and was only to pick language and subtitle.
Well, if you consider a list of timeline-chapters to be a menu, then I guess you'd literally be right. But it's far from an actual GUI menu, which doesn't exist in any form yet.


AutoMKV Chapters: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=85641
101 things you never knew you could do with Matroska: http://www.mod16.org/hurfdurf/?p=8 and http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=59561
maybe the anime subculture will figure this out first...

Yes, that's all dealing with chapters and timelines/linking. MPC-HC, for example, presents them in a right-click menu. No specification for graphical display as yet, to say nothing of custom animated menus.


I guess the easiest option would be to add DVD XML and pointers to MKV ignoring the pesky little detail of licensing. Where's derrow and why hasn't he done what I desire :P
It shouldn't be hard to create an open-source equivalent, but I'm far from a dev.

[FredThompson]

Hmm...if you edit a DVD menu to remove stuff like Disney's on-disc games and ignore alpha-blending and logic for play-once portions and such, what is a DVD menu, really? It's a liked list of video clips. Still images are just I-frames. IIRC, DVD Stripper completely fragmented a DVD source into all the individual components. Do that and, essentially, parse only the navigation links into MKV links. Then again, it's also almost 3 AM here so...

[lovelove]

I'm having trouble finding the forum link I read earlier today which supposedly linked to an MKV sample file with a menu. The link didn't work but the thread mentioned a simple menu which used the first 2 chapter points of the sample data. I'll keep searching.
@FredThompson: The posting you are searching for his here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=768801#post768801

[lovelove]

On Matroska menus... As we discussed a while back about them. The proposed menu system is 100% reliant on the means to display them (software and hardware) as the specs state. So while the elements can be defined, the means for playback still needs to know the how/where/what to do with them. So technically you could just stuff a current 'Cocktail' menu in Matroska as long as the means to handle all the 'web' elements are handled in the player. [...]
maybe I got your posting wrong, but it sounds like it's the same old story:
applications do not support the standards
and the standard doesn't get finished due to lacking software support.

reminds me of lyrics3 and id3v2.4 specs (which had been out for ~10 years)

[Chetwood]

Look at things like the WD TV players. They'll work with mkv but won't mount a virtual disc.
I don't know where you got your info from but the original WD TV supported ISO files as does the entire line of their players. Problem is that internal VobSubs in MKVs are problematic, check the stickies on the official forums.

While H.264 yields smaller file size at a given quality (progressive or not) I still use xvid for SD material. MakeMKV keeps chapters but does not encode but I'm pretty sure Staxrip, Handbrake or MeGUI will also transfer chapters to MKV. Thus ripping the main movie with DVDFab and encoding to MKV should be easy enough.

I just don't know why you would need menus any more. The file browser of any player is good enough to select a certain ep of a TV show, why complicate things?

[lovelove]

some DVD have highly elaborated menus which are just part of the artwork
why don't you just accept the premise?

[Chetwood]

Because there's no container that properly could handle them. Why dont you just accept that premise? Besides, players like WD TV display jpgs as thumbnails or even screen sized pictures which would allow for keeping some of this artwork. Feel free to complicate things as much as you like.

[lovelove]

There are people who can't distinguish between a still image and a full interactive menu with video, sound, links, multimedia design, etc.

Because there's no container that properly could handle them. Why dont you just accept that premise?
... And there are also people who can't distinguidh between a premise and a conclusion.
And possibly a wrong one, that is.

Matroska Menu Specifications
[...]
What we'll try to have is a system that can do almost everything done on a DVD, or more, or better, or drop the unused features if necessary."

[Ghitulescu]

I hope you're young, cos' only ripping a few thousands DVDs will take a while. And since every DVD is different in terms of processing, I'll double the time. For converting with an easy script (no denoise) I'll triple it. And by the end of your action the great grandson of Bluray will be already on the market and your collection will look like VHS on the future 16k panels. Notice that I didn't mention the possibility that you'll probably never watch again some of them.
There is to date no container that will retain all the functionality of the original DVD. The only format possible will be ISO (a DVD image, not recompressed discs) but even then there's no guarantee that the standalones will have full support (the expensive ones do, as the extra licensing costs are included in their price).

[lovelove]

I The only format possible will be ISO ... but even then there's no guarantee that the standalones will have full support (the expensive ones do,
WD TV live plays ISO and has full DVD menu support. costs ~80 €

[Chetwood]

WD TV live plays ISO and has full DVD menu support.
Full as in buggy, true. Which also won't help him one bit since he wanted to have more compression than - say - DVD Shrink or DVD RB can provide.

... And there are also people who can't distinguidh between a premise and a conclusion.
And there are also people who can't distinguish between a draft that some day may result in something and a feature already widely supported by software players and standalones. Guess what MKV menus belong to?

[lovelove]

And there are also people who can't distinguish between a draft that some day may result in something and a feature already widely supported by software players and standalones. Guess what MKV menus belong to?

Well I can. I just don't have the necessary information to make a judgement on that point.
Hence my interest in this thread.

Maybe you want to share your wisdom? Some hard facts?

[Chetwood]

If you're so interested in it, why don't you just test it out and let us know about your findings? After all, it's you who's saying MKV menus are a viable alternative.

[smok3]

WD TV live plays ISO and has full DVD menu support. costs ~80 €

i'd do just that as well, if lets say average DVD size is about 4 gigs, that would be

1000 * 4 gigs =~ 4 tera, which isn't that much for todays standards (even if you miror that onto multiple drives), so basicaly one could buy (right now):

- 4 x 1 tera usb 2/3 ext drives for main storage and say
- 8 x 500 gigs small ext drives for mirror
- wd tv live or similar player with iso/menu support

p.s. I can't see how much fun would be to 'convert' the menu part of the DVD structure to any other format, not to mention that is completely boring, non-creative process (and multiply that by 1000).
p.s.2. i see that there are now a 3 or even 6 tera drives getting out
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3964/western-digital-introduces-new-usb-30-external-drives-hits-3tb
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2382150,00.asp

edit: + a warning against cheap raid 1 mirroring solutions, better use many drives for a backup solution (say if you have your data on 6 drives and one fails then 5/6 of your data is still ok...).

[lovelove]

After all, it's you who's saying MKV menus are a viable alternative. If you read the thread you'd see I didn't say that. I was trying to find out if it can live up to what it's advertising.

I can't see how much fun would be to 'convert' the menu part of the DVD structure to any other format, not to mention that is completely boring, non-creative process (and multiply that by 1000).
p.s.2. i see that there are now a 3 or even 6 tera drives getting out
I guess you also don't have mp3's but only wav's on your portable audio player. mp3's are boring.

[smok3]

lovelove: mp3 and wav are directly related and transcoding is super simple and fully automagic (not to mention super fast), so i fail to see the connection?

[Chetwood]

Still waiting for the OP to chime in and tell us if he's also hellbent on preserving menus...

[setarip_old]

@Chetwood

Hi! Still waiting for the OP to chime in and tell us if he's also hellbent on preserving menus...You are amongst the most patient folks in the world - The OP last posted to this thread almost two years ago...

[lovelove]

lovelove: mp3 and wav are directly related
define "directly related"

transcoding is super simple
lame.exe inputfile outputfile
x264.exe inputfile outputfile

I fail to see the higher difficulty in the latter

i fail to see the connection?
I probably can't help you with that

[lovelove]

Still waiting for the OP to chime in and tell us if he's also hellbent on preserving menus... isn't that clear from the OP?

[lovelove]

I just don't know why you would need menus any more. The file browser of any player is good enough to select a certain ep of a TV show, why complicate things?

Why watch DVD extras?
Why watch interviews with actors?
Why watch the opening credits of a film?
Why watch the first 30 minutes of a film?
Why watch the film at all?

Just look at e.g. the DVD menu of "Pieces of April (2003)". It has a highly artistic interactive menu amounting to 400MB (~10% of the whole disc). But judging from your quote, art is an inkhorn term to you.

[Ghitulescu]

Why watch DVD extras?
Why watch interviews with actors?
Why watch the opening credits of a film?
Why watch the first 30 minutes of a film?
Why watch the film at all?

Just look at e.g. the DVD menu of "Pieces of April (2003)". It has a highly artistic interactive menu amounting to 400MB (~10% of the whole disc). But judging from your quote, art is an inkhorn term to you.

For about 80 years, people went in cinemas and never complained about the lack of the aforementioned features (bonuses, interviews, alternative ends). IIRC people watching the main feature in a cinema stood up and left the room when the credits started - so much about the last part.
Like for BD-live, the additional marketing hypes seemed to become more important than the real content. A Platinum edition, or a collector one, or an anniversary one (you may continue) costs 2-3x the price of a regular one, just to include interviews and opinions and so on. Damn, how stupid were the people in the good old times, they went in cinemas without having someone to explain them what's happening in the movie. What a waste of "intelligent power", which could be better used for watching the ball game - a real intellectual challenge. If I need someone to explain me what's happening in the movie, maybe I shouldn't watch this movie at all.
And having animated menus, that last some 10-20-30 seconds each just to select a subtitle, that's a technical advantage, instead of just pressing, like the low class people, the SUBTITLES button of the remote. especially when the PUOs prevent you from doing this.
And the unskippable trailers and commercials, and the FBI warning one knows it by heart by now, and 1001 logos.

Menus might be nice, might be useful, but they are far from being indispensable.

[lovelove]

For about 80 years, people went in cinemas and never complained about the lack of the aforementioned features (bonuses, interviews, alternative ends). what a twisted argument is that? Before the times of CD and digital music, people listened to cassette tapes and never complained. Geez, before the invention of fire, people ate their wild pigs raw. You doin that Ghitulescu? I guess not.

they went in cinemas without having someone to explain them what's happening in the movie. What a waste of "intelligent power", which could be better used for watching the ball game - a real intellectual challenge. If I need someone to explain me what's happening in the movie, maybe I shouldn't watch this movie at all.
DVD menus have nothing to do with "explaining" (same goes for a film's opening and end credits, etc.). And DVD extras and interviews can sometimes bring a deeper insight than would be possible from the movie alone (I'm thinking "Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress" there).

And the unskippable trailers and commercials, and the FBI warning…
… have exactly nothing to do with this topic.

Menus might be nice, might be useful
hence the whish not to discard them

[Ghitulescu]

Sorry, I jumped one logic step. Menus are needed in order to access various parts of the disc. Should the disc contain only one item (the main feature), the need for a menu is almost futile. While it's true that the menus have nothing to do with "explaining", they allow (on a standalone) the user select bonuses (interviews etc.) that explain the movie. If a director (or the script author) cannot transpose the idea into a movie, then s/he'll have to look for a another job, where he'd be better prepared for. Everyone can write (well, at least I am confident) but this item alone cannot make him/her a novelist. If one needs explanations about a book, s/he shouldn't read that book - the same for films, music, philosophy etc. Authors that write books understandable only with the aid of a critic, will fall into oblivion. Authors that write books anyone could read, will score top sales. When was the last time you've read Platon, or Freud, or Kafka? How about Crichton or similar? Sorry for being too personal.

If I would make a collection of movies on a suitable medium, then I have to select the application that let me browse them. Under windows it's called explorer. Every mediaplayer has a browser, to locate and load the needed multimedia resource. Why not use this integrated facility to load/watch the bonuses? Why complicate things?

[lovelove]

Should the disc contain only one item (the main feature), the need for a menu is almost futile.
no, again, depending on the DVD, it can be a highly elaborate part of the whole thing. Why would it be any less futile than e.g. a film's opening credits without plot development?

While it's true that the menus have nothing to do with "explaining", they allow (on a standalone) the user select bonuses (interviews etc.) that explain the movie. If a director (or the script author) cannot transpose the idea into a movie, then s/he'll have to look for a another job, where he'd be better prepared for. Everyone can write (well, at least I am confident) but this item alone cannot make him/her a novelist. If one needs explanations about a book, s/he shouldn't read that book - the same for films, music, philosophy etc.
again, it has NOTHING to do with UNDERSTANDING/EXPLAINING … when you will you grasp this? Books (often) and CDs have graphical covers. Do they explain something? No. Do you need them for understanding anything? No. Do people throw away their book or CD covers? No.

When was the last time you've read Platon, or Freud, or Kafka? what about something easier first, like "An introduction to DVD-menus"? :-) (not meant to offend)

I have to [use] windows explorer. […] Why complicate things? Using Windows Explorer would complicate things.
Example given: On "Pandorum (2000)", one of the bonus features is a menu listing 17 alternative scenes. With Windows Explorer you can only play all 17 scenes sequentially without knowing where one begins and ends, how they are named (which helps understand to which part of the movie they belong to), whether they are deleted or alternative scenes etc. You completely get lost.

[hello_hello]

Why watch DVD extras?
Why watch interviews with actors?
Why watch the opening credits of a film?
Why watch the first 30 minutes of a film?
Why watch the film at all?

Just look at e.g. the DVD menu of "Pieces of April (2003)". It has a highly artistic interactive menu amounting to 400MB (~10% of the whole disc). But judging from your quote, art is an inkhorn term to you.

I rarely watch DVD extras. I'm even less likely to watch interviews with actors. Just because I don't watch them isn't a reason for asking why I did watch the movie.
Even so, watching them is one thing, putting up with navigating through tedious DVD menus is another. One man's art is another ones shite. When it comes to encoding discs, if I want to watch any of the extras I encode them as separate files to remove the shite.

Mind you DVD extras aren't just to explain what the book was about. In fact when it comes to explaining the story, they rarely are. They do often explain when the book was written, the writers thoughts on the different ideas which were included and rejected, the outside influences which effected the way the story was told, where it was printed.... etc etc.
Personally I'm not interested enough to want to know most of the time, but if it's a movie which interests me the extras can be too, but not because I needed the plot explained to me.

[lovelove]

I rarely watch DVD extras. nobody said you have to

Just because I don't watch them isn't a reason for asking why I did watch the movie. nobody was asking you. You did not understand the part of my posting you were quoting.

[Ghitulescu]

no, again, depending on the DVD, it can be a highly elaborate part of the whole thing.

Using Windows Explorer would complicate things.
Example given: On "Pandorum (2000)", one of the bonus features is a menu listing 17 alternative scenes. With Windows Explorer you can only play all 17 scenes sequentially without knowing where one begins and ends, how they are named (which helps understand to which part of the movie they belong to), whether they are deleted or alternative scenes etc. You completely get lost.

It was not immediately evident that I agree with you on some counts. There is a need for a menu. However, should the distress to keep it/them simply be too high, I would rather drop them. Most backups I do don't have any menu at all (and I also do a Set_STN to set the subtitles, if any, the audio always being the original). The rest of argumentation is simply why I consider them not really "indispensable".

I personally don't like alternative ends. It looks like the director never made his mind (I know that's not the cause, but that he (or his employers) want/s to target a higher audience that a single end will do), a sort of blackmail from the audience (We don't wanna Harry Potter die :):):), please let him live! Please! Ok, I'll have a couple of doubles extra, and an alternative end, is this ok?). A movie should tell a story. It's not 3D, it's not FX, it's not HD, it's the story that should "sell" the movie.

[smok3]

its a tech question, there is not much to agree or disagree, only the part on how to achieve stuff.

[Chetwood]

You are amongst the most patient folks in the world
LOL, yeah. This happens when one reads/posts to threads in several tabs simultaneously, especially some with similar topics and posters.

But judging from your quote, art is an inkhorn term to you.
Actually, I do care about the art of the movie itself which stands in its own right. No need whatsoever to embellish this in a menu (that too often also gives away too much for first time watchers).