TsMuxer 1.8.30 Still wont work with Panasonic

[rotty]

TsMuxer 1.8.30 will still not author a working disc on Panasonic players if original Blu Ray is VC-1 encoded. The strict structure requirements are still not being met by TsMuser.
If you say extract the main movie from a VC-1 encoded Blu Ray original and burn to disc, the result will make the Panasonic players show HDMI in the display continuously and NOT play.
H264 encoded discs seem to be ok.
The only way that anybody has been able to make a VC-1 authored disc work with the Panasonic players is by using the way out of price range Scenarist.

[idbirch2]

Did this really warrant a whole new thread? (That's rhetorical by the way, the answer is no). Do what everyone else has done with their TSMuxer problems and email SMlabs (mailto:tsmuxer@smartlabs.tv). They have been very prompt at fixing problems reported by other members.

[rotty]

I don’t know if this warrants a new thread or not but it affects more players as updates are loaded onto them and the Blu Ray structure is enforced. A high number of discs are VC-1 encoded and therefore this IS a major problem.
Problems with HD audio etc will pale into insignificance if this is not resolved.
I have emailed smlabs but not received reply. Its is not just tsmuxer, there is no authoring software that will work with the exception of Scenarist $$$$$.

[idbirch2]

Hm, very dramatic. Are you sure this is affecting "more players" because I've only ever heard of these sorts of problems from Panasonic owners? I seem to recall that Panasonics always seem to throw up problems for people developing apps like BDRebuilder, fixclpi, MultiAVCHD etc as well. If this problem is brand specific, I guess it may be difficult for the TSMuxer devs to reproduce if they don't have that specific player. All I know is, I'm glad I don't own a Panny BD player.

Edit: Maybe this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1228707#post1228707) post and the one it links to are of some help?

[rotty]

The Panasonic is the best player in its league, better by far than the Sony S500 which is a lot more expensive.
The fact it wont play these burned discs is not the fault of the player but the fact that these rendered discs don’t properly conform to structure, this is why Scenarist WILL create correct discs that play. As for more players now exhibiting problems with VC-1, I have heard that some Samsung players are having trouble after update, I don't know if its model specific and I haven’t got access to any of these players to try myself.
Do you or anybody know if Slysoft is anywhere near to a Clone type program for Blu Ray.

[turbojet]

Better for xvid maybe actually only ones that can do this as far as I know. But I would still take a sony 350 that I can backup full BD's to BD5/9 and play with menus/extras and all.

Skysoft seems to have a closed alpha testing of CloneBD right now.

[rotty]

The Panasonic will play BD5/9 discs that have been drived from VC-1 because as you know, BD5/9 are re-encoded to H264 and therefore ok. I want to keep the full quality and not re-encoded for all the obvious reasons.

[UltimatePain]

Hi to all of you,

ok, I'm already registered for a while but this is my first post, as I was only reading till now.
So a nice hallo to all of you.

I just want you informed that I'm in contact since last weekend with Roman from smlabs - very nice guy and high responding. :)
As I also own a BD-35 I'm having the same problems with tsMuxeR and VC1 encoded discs as all the others around.

I've got in the meanwhile 2 test versions (that generates BD still not working) and I'm testing on my Panny - till now I've eliminated mpls,clpi,m2ts for causing the problems ....
Most likely it's either the MovieObject.bdmv/index.bdmv or some missing id.bdmv or missing AACS (including content) folder in the structure.

Tests are ongoing - but my time in the evening is limited (looks like I'm working to much :mad: ).

I'll keep you informed.

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[nwg]

Has anyone tried burning just the bdmv folder and not the certificate? I have to do that with BD5/BD9's on my Sony S350 or I get no disc errors.

In the UK, the panasonics are more expsensive than the Sony's by quite a bit. I would be peeved to pay what they cost and not have VC-1 discs working.

[rotty]

Just to clear up what may be misunderstood info and perhaps confusing. The Panasonic WILL play VC-1 disks.
They WILL even play ripped VC-1 disks that are copied in whole, i.e just by having AnyDVDHD running in background and using standard windows to copy the whole disk to hard drive, then burning ALL the files to disk. THIS WILL WORK.
What they wont play is interfered with VC-1 disks, i.e. if you have selected a stream or streams to copy, movie only for example.
They will even play this type of disk if done with Scenarist.
Thanks for news Ultimate Pain and hello.

[UltimatePain]

Hi,

finally we have found the bug - I've done a working copy yesterday evening :cool:

The playback problems are because of the MovieObject and index files.
I've search a little bit the Internet and found the following:

AVCHD headers
index.bdmv - INDX0100
MovieObject.bdmv - MOBJ0100
PLAYLIST *.mpls - MPLS0100
CLIPINF *.clpi - HDMV0100

Blu-ray headers on BD-RE
index.bdmv - INDX0200
MovieObject.bdmv - MOBJ0200
PLAYLIST *.mpls - MPLS0200
CLIPINF *.clpi - HDMV0200

I've crosschecked with the original files are using the BluRay-Headers while tsMuxeR use the AVCHD header.

From specification point of view (http://www.avchd-info.org/format/index.html)
it looks like that VC1 is not supported in AVCHD standard.

And as I work for a Japanese company I know how Japanese are working :angry:
- If it's not in the standard we will not play it back as it is not allowed.

Roman from smlabs is already informed about this issue and he will release a new version with this fix.
But don't ask me when - most likely he will be fast (what I've seen in the last days from him :thanks:).
But he will also have to update the GUI, as he now has to split AVCHD and BluRay creation because of the different headers.

But there is still one small bug:
- The time inside of the stream isn't been displayed. :confused:

I'm having a status button on the remote control.
Normally if I press this I'm getting an OSD with Chapter, actual play
time and total play time.
But on the copied disc I don't get anything of this - there are just some minus signs telling me that this information is not available ....
Jumping to the next chapter works fine without any problems.

Something seems to go wrong ... and at the moment I don't have any idea what it is.
The clpi seems to be OK, otherwise I would expect problems with the chapter jumps.

I'll do further testing - hopefully there is a chance to fix this also.

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[deank]

If you have these --- signs instead of time/chapter/title it means your player is 'thinking' that the current title is a MENU, not a real playlist title or user-actions UO are disabled in the mpls file (such as title search, chapter search, etc...) or there is incorrect PLAY command in movieobject.bdmv.

[UltimatePain]

Hi Dean,

thanks a lot for this hint.
I've had a short look to the bdmv files with BDEdit.
tsMuxeR said first playback: Interactive
Same generated with Sonic says Movie.

Then it would make sense to me, but also with the Sonic generated one I'm having no times displayed.
But thanks a lot for the hint - most likely I've missed something else - or I've done an error with the Sonic.
I'll have a deeper look to these files.

btw. I'm also following your multiAVCHD thread - looks that it will become a very great program.

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[deank]

As I already posted here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1258566#post1258566)

...It is not a good idea to have Title#0 (top menu) and Title#1 (main movie) to share the same objectID. While playing a title as TOP menu - navigation is handled differently and information displayed on SAPs LCD or TV is different, too. The best way is to have a simple Jump title #1 for top menu, Play PL MK 0,0 in title#1 (if your mpls file is 00000.mpls), BREAK to quit playback.

[UltimatePain]

Thanks Dean,

not easy to understand, but I'll do some test tonight with BDEdit.

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[dread]

UltimatePain, wow, great find with these headers.

When using multiAVCHD (and fixing headers of course) time info is being shown in OSD on my BD35. With or without menu.
So I guess you have to compare tsmuxer and multiAVCHD's commands and voila!

[deank]

What do you mean by fixing headers?


multiAVCHD always produces AVCHD headers for all bdmv/mpls/clpi files - 0100 - not 0200.

*** edit ***

Someone should have pointed this out earlier... It seems that I've 'commented' the line to correct clpi header to 0100 and somefiles are left with 0200.

It is fixed now in build 471 of multiAVCHD. Thanks for the information.

Dean

[dread]

I mean fixing headers for VC1 playback in Panasonic BD players.
Loading VC1 to multiAVCHD and creating multiBD gave me time info in OSD and when using tsmuxer there is not.

Now also time info in tsmuxer works for me.
UltimatePain - try this:

index.bdmv created by tsmuxer (first 6 lines):
49 4e 44 58 30 31 30 30 00 00 00 4e 00 00 00 78
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 22 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 26 40 00 00 00 40 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 40 00

fixed index.bdmv:
49 4e 44 58 30 32 30 30 00 00 00 4e 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 22 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 26 40 00 00 00 40 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 40 00

Don't know how but this second index.bdmv gives me time info when using tsmuxer + VC1 on my BD35

[deank]

The value you're changing (from 0x78 to 0x00) is part of the pointer to the extended descriptor (available only in AVCHD index.bdm(v) file - IDEX section). When this pointer is 0x00000000 (offset bytes 0x0c - 0x0f) it means that the index file is for BluRay disc (not AVCHD).

So it makes sense.

[laserfan]

...finally we have found the bug... The playback problems are because of the MovieObject and index files. I've search a little bit the Internet and found the following:

AVCHD headers
index.bdmv - INDX0100
MovieObject.bdmv - MOBJ0100
PLAYLIST *.mpls - MPLS0100
CLIPINF *.clpi - HDMV0100

Blu-ray headers on BD-RE
index.bdmv - INDX0200
MovieObject.bdmv - MOBJ0200
PLAYLIST *.mpls - MPLS0200
CLIPINF *.clpi - HDMV0200

I've crosschecked with the original files are using the BluRay-Headers while tsMuxeR use the AVCHD header.I just looked at these, and yes tsMuxeR 1.8.34 is putting-out MOBJ and INDX with 0100, while .clpi and .mpls are 0200.

So you're saying that you can fix it simply by editing the header of the two .bdmv files to 0200?

[UltimatePain]

Hi to all,

thanks for all the replies - and finding the bug was not so hard - more time intensive.
I've generated a 'working' (not for the time display) VC1 muxed disc with Scenarist.
And Roman from smlabs was so nice to egalize the tsMuxeR output to the Scenarist output - not so mutch just a fixed PTS offset and using 00000 instead of 00001.
And the - just replacing file by file in the Scenarist generated - burn - test - until the Player stoped playing.
Then I was having the MovieObject and index identified and from there to finding the reason searching the Internet was easy :)

I've just returned home - so not more than one test possible (have to go to work again tomorrow :o ) - But I've modified the index and MovieObjet in a way that should be right in my understanding (most likely my understanding is wrong :) ).

I'll report tomorrow (for some reason my BD-RE is only written in 1x speed - so it took a while).
But I hope to find the final settings over the weekend.

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[SomeJoe]

I'll report tomorrow (for some reason my BD-RE is only written in 1x speed - so it took a while).


If you are burning with ImgBurn, go to Settings, go to the Write tab, and check "DVD-RAM / BD-RE FastWrite" to enable 2x write speed.

(Took me ages to find that, by the way). ;)

[dread]

Well, I've tried it on three different VC1 movies (Dark Knight, Matrix, Strangers) and everything works like a charm on my BD35 - video, audio, chapters, time info...

[UltimatePain]

Hi SomeJoe,

I'm using ImageBurn - and I've already seen this option (for me it took longer to find the option not to format the disk (in case of rewriteable) before fully writing )

But at the moment I don't want to take the risk that I miss a working configuration just because something has gone wrong due to writing the disk.

But tahnks.

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[UltimatePain]

Hi dread,

Well, I've tried it on three different VC1 movies (Dark Knight, Matrix, Strangers) and everything works like a charm on my BD35 - video, audio, chapters, time info...

Let me guess - you are doing 1:1 copy (used BD-50) and if you have used AnyDVDHD lower than version 6.5.2.6 (or was ist the 6.5.2.8 where it was fixed?) you are not removing BDLive and Region code?

Am I right? - No? :)

Then you are using BD-Rebuilder and reencoding the viedeo to x264?

Am I right? - No? :)

Then please tell me what you are doing !
If you are using tsMuxeR tell the world how you manage this. :)
I've read through the whole internet - and have found nobody that has used tsMuxeR successfull with stripping down and BD-35.

If you tell me you are using tsMuxeR and stripped down movie only for example - you are the only person out there who has it working.

Sorry, but I'm not willing to spend 13€ for a BD-50 for just every movie - for some special - OK, but not because it's just VC1 coded.

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[UltimatePain]

Just to inform you:

My first try hasn't worked :devil: - as I was expecting.

I'll take the disc structure with me to work - have to get some deeper understanding of the MovieObject and index stuff!
Forunetly our customers are silent at the moment ... my boss is not inhouse - and nobody is understanding what I'm really doing :)

The stuff Dean has written is very interesting - but I'm still not fully throgh it.

Damned I would like to have a real Spec. but till now I've not found anything.



cu,
Ultimate Pain

[dread]

But what's not working for you ? Disc doesn't play at all or just no time info in OSD or using status in remote control ?

Yes, I use tsmuxer v1.8.34(b) with GUI v1.8.30.
First thing I'm doing is demux whole disc using eac3to. Then I add in tsmuxer streams which I want to stay and set output to create blu-ray disk.
Next thing - I'm using hexedit and modify index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv files created by tsmuxer.

That's how index.bdmv looks before:
49 4e 44 58 30 31 30 30 00 00 00 4e 00 00 00 78
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 22 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 26 40 00 00 00 40 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 40 00

and after:
49 4e 44 58 30 32 30 30 00 00 00 4e 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 22 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 26 40 00 00 00 40 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 40 00

MovieObject.bdmv before:
4d 4f 42 4a 30 31 30 30 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00

and after:
4d 4f 42 4a 30 32 30 30 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00

I do not add any commands in bdedit, etc. just modify tsmuxer's files using hexedit.
Copying fixed index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv files also to BACKUP folder, but I'm not sure if it's necessary.
Burning with ImgBurn to BD-RE DL.

That's all. Everything works on my BD35 with latest firmware.
You might want to try first with a few minutes sample - just use tsmuxers cutting.

[UltimatePain]

Hi dread,

thanks for the information (an PM has send to you).
I'll give it a try tonight.

Yesterday I just didn't have had the time to do this - created disc plays (I#ve changed 0x31 to 0x32) but not displaying time!

Big thanks for the help!

The change from 0x31 to 0x32 I fully understand. But what does the change from 0x78 to 0x00?

Edit:
Just looked up my index.bdmv file -> I'm having a 0x00 at offset 15. -> But no time being displayed

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[dread]

The change from 0x31 to 0x32 I fully understand. But what does the change from 0x78 to 0x00?

click here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1263461#post1263461).

Edit:
Just looked up my index.bdmv file -> I'm having a 0x00 at offset 15. -> But no time being displayed

Check also rest, especially 6th row, 10th column. There should be 0x02, not 0x00. I had there 0x00 when I was using scenarists index.bdmv at first (and not tsmuxers one) and I also didn't had time displayed.

[UltimatePain]

@dread:

OK - understand - offset 0x0c-0x0f.

And changing offset 0x59 from 0x0 to 0x2 make the ObjectId for first playback invalid?! Right?!
Seems that I've go deeper into that materia.

@all:

I've got some updated information:


Some addition information about version number inside bdmv files (from official sony documentation "System Description Blu-ray Disc Read-Only FormatVersion 2.01 DRAFT3"):

version_number: A four-character string that indicates version number of the index.bdmv file.
This field shall have a value of "0200" or "0100" coded according to ISO 646[31]. It is recommended to
use a value of "0200". If this field is set to "0100", any HDMV or BD-J applications associated with this
file (e.g. applications contained on the same disc) shall not include Region Playback Control functions.

So, code "0100" is correct code for blu-ray disks too.


Looks like there is either a problem with the Panasonic FW - seems to go into the same direction that ripped disc if the Region Code or BDLive content was removed with AnyDVD where not playable in the Panasonic,
or the Standard has been changed (as it is Draft - nevertheless it seems to me very actual), or Panasonic is stricter than the standard (but this is once again a FW bug, as also professional authored discs may not be playable in that case).

EDIT:
I've had again a look to the tsMuxeR generated files ...
The 'normal' tsMuxeR is using 0100 in the header for index and MovieObject while in clpi and mpls the 0200 is being used.
Maybe this is confusing the player?!
I'll also give it a try tonight.

EDIT END

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[dread]

I don't think you are using index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv generated by tsmuxer 1.8.34b... I've loaded yours to bdedit and mine looks completely different (you have only one command PLAY PL 0 in each objects, first playback at 0, etc).

Try with tsmuxer 1.8.34b, fix it's headers, and don't forget to change offset 15 in index.bdmv from 0x78 to 0x00, otherwise disc won't play at all.

[UltimatePain]

Hi dread,

thanks for the hint - I'll try this really tonight.

Maybe you are right, I haven't used 1.8.34 but I think it was 1.8.30.
BUT in the last days I've played around with so many versions official ones and some I've got from smlabs that it could be that I've screwed something up.

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[dread]

I've had again a look to the tsMuxeR generated files ...
The 'normal' tsMuxeR is using 0100 in the header for index and MovieObject while in clpi and mpls the 0200 is being used.
Maybe this is confusing the player?!
I'll also give it a try tonight.

If you mean changing all files headers to 0100 instead of 0200 I tried it on 5min VC1 sample just a while ago.

Played the disc and I got vertical lines, and a couple of seconds later player automatically restarted and ejected the disc.
But changing 0x78 to 0x00 on index.bdmv makes it playable with working time display.

[UltimatePain]

Hi dread,

you have been totally right - woks like a charm.
Playing with time, chapters, everything working.

I'll inform Roman from smlabs - I'm sure he'll fix it in next (one of the) next release/s.

Thanx a lot :thanks:

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[rotty]

hi Dread

ive tried it

ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC

We all owe you dearly

THANKS A MILLION

[deank]

To conclude all:

your players will play BD (0200 without IDEX) structures or AVCHD (0100 with IDEX) - like those multiAVCHD produced, is this correct?

Please let me know, as it seems that we've found one of the cornerstones here...

[laserfan]

I use tsmuxer v1.8.34(b) with GUI v1.8.30.
First thing I'm doing is demux whole disc using eac3to. Then I add in tsmuxer streams which I want to stay and set output to create blu-ray disk.
Next thing - I'm using hexedit and modify index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv files created by tsmuxer.

That's how index.bdmv looks before:
49 4e 44 58 30 31 30 30 00 00 00 4e 00 00 00 78

and after:
49 4e 44 58 30 32 30 30 00 00 00 4e 00 00 00 00

MovieObject.bdmv before:
4d 4f 42 4a 30 31 30 30 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00

and after:
4d 4f 42 4a 30 32 30 30 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00

I do not add any commands in bdedit, etc. just modify tsmuxer's files using hexedit.
Copying fixed index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv files also to BACKUP folder, but I'm not sure if it's necessary.
Burning with ImgBurn to BD-RE DL. That's all. Everything works...
Many thanks dread for your post!

:thanks:

[rotty]

Forgot to ask, is there an easy way to stop the movie repeating after end of file. When I played the movie only, and film and titles have finished, the movie will start again.
Sorry to put it so plainly, but wanted to make sure you knew what I am asking.

[deank]

If you use HEX editing you can change tsmuxer's movieobject.bdmv at offset 0x5a from:


21 81 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00


to


00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00


If you use BDedit, you can replace "Jump Title 1" in MovieObject.bdmv program #000 to BREAK (Branch/GoTo/Break).

[rotty]

Thanks Deank

[deank]

If you're going for BDedit you'll need to

1) Select the line with "Jump Title 1"
2) Click add command (the plus sign "+")
3) Select the line with "Jump Title 1"
4) Click remove command (the minus sign "-")
5) Select the No Operation line - "NOP"
6) Select Branch / GoTo / Break

or

simply use HEX fields in BDedit and after step 1) - replace values:

in 1st HEX box: 21810000 to 00020000
in 2nd HEX box: 00000001 to 00000000

Dean

[rotty]

Thanks Deank
Wasnt having much luck with bdedit until info you just gave me.
Thanks very much

[laserfan]

BTW I asked Smlabs if they could make this "repeat" behavior Optional and they agreed, so we hope to see in a future update. :)

[dread]

To conclude all:

your players will play BD (0200 without IDEX) structures or AVCHD (0100 with IDEX) - like those multiAVCHD produced, is this correct?


No, Panasonic will play BD 0100 or 0200 without IDEX (0x78 to 0x00).
0100 with IDEX - vertical lines on my player, and a few secs later, eject of disc.
0200 with IDEX - black screen, player hangs up, does not respond to any commands.

[dread]

Sorry deank - I didn't read your post carefully. Yes, you are right.
What I said is correct for VC1 stream.

[rotty]

In tsmuxer, is there an option, or any other way to keep the original chapter positions. I always get whatever tsmuxer is set to for chapter periods.
IM OVER THE MOON WITH THE VC-1 FIX
Is it ok to apply the changes to the index and movieobject files for discs other than VC-1, i.e. H264.

[dread]

Is it ok to apply the changes to the index and movieobject files for discs other than VC-1, i.e. H264.

Panasonic plays VC1 burned on BD with headers for all files set to 0100 or 0200 without IDEX only.
Panasonic plays H264 burned on BD with headers for all files set to 0100 or 0200 with or without IDEX.
Panasonic plays H264 burned on DVD (or copied to pendrive, etc) with headers set to 0100 with IDEX only.

[rotty]

In tsmuxer, if you say tick the box to down convert HD DTS to standard DTS for example, is there any way of knowing what the end file size will be before you actually wait for the ptogram to mux, just so you know if it will fit on a 25G disk.

[UltimatePain]

Just got a mail from Roman:

Good news!
Today I'll update version. New version will have two separate mux mode for AVCHD and Blu-ray.

for AVCHD mode:
- all files will be have 0x100 code

for Blu-ray mode:
- all files will be have 0x200 code
- putting to offset 0xf in index.bdmv value 0x00 (remove link to BDMV extended data).
- truncate index.bdmv to 0x78 ( I will truncate file because from 0x78 to the end of the file placed BDMV extended data with AVCHD descriptor. Thus better to delete this descriptor from file).


So have a look on smlabs-page!

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[deank]

Such general approach will break playback functionality in more players than it will fix in those with minor/no problems with tsmuxer output.

[UltimatePain]

Hi Dean,

why do you think so?

The only thing that could cause a problem can be.

- truncate index.bdmv to 0x78 ( I will truncate file because from 0x78 to the end of the file placed BDMV extended data with AVCHD descriptor. Thus better to delete this descriptor from file).


The rest should make no harm at all.
It was definetly wrong to have soe of the files with 0100 and some others with 0200 - this could not meet the standard.

and

- putting to offset 0xf in index.bdmv value 0x00 (remove link to BDMV extended data).

should not cause any harm as youself have posted out that this is something that belongs to AVCHD.
So it's just the one point that could cause problems.

Until nobody knows the standard - we just have to try out ;-)

So I think the major players outside should be:
Sony PS3
Sony xxx
Panasonic xxx
Samsung xxx

If these player make no problems we could most likely imagine that we are meeting the standard somehow ;-)

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[laserfan]

Well let's all try out the new version and see where it breaks:

http://www.smlabs.net/tsMuxer/tsMuxeR_1.8.35(b).zip

[UltimatePain]

Test on Panasonic BD-35:

BluRay creation -> works fine in the Panasonic with Time displayed
AVCHD-Creation -> Crashed the Player.

cu,
Ultimate Pain

[deank]

More about the Extension Data, version ID and my tests:

* Few tests proved that there is no difference in playback (PS3/Nero Showtime/TMT) when versionID is set to 0100 or 0200 in all files (bdmv/clpi/mpls).

* If extension data start address (offset 0x0c-0x0f) is zeroed PS3 will not recognize DVD/USB/SD card as AVCHD and will not initiate playback. It is possible that if data is written to a BluRay Disc (BD25) PS3 will play it. I have no means to test. Nero Showtime recognizes the content as BluRay if long names are used (clpi/bdmv/mpls). TMT shows always BDMV and plays it.

* If extension data start address points to the extension data, but first four bytes (extension data lenght) is set to zero and index.bdmv ends with these four zeroes

1) Playstation3 will recognize the content as AVCHD only if written to DVD.
2) Playstation3 will not recognize the content and will not initiate playback if data is written to USB/SD card.
3) Nero Showtime recognizes the content as BluRay if long names are used (clpi/bdmv/mpls). TMT shows always BDMV and plays it.

* If extension data start address points to the extension data and the extension data is present, Playstation3 will recognize the content as AVCHD and will initiate playback from all media (DVD/USB/SD card). 3) Nero Showtime recognizes the content as AVCHD. TMT shows always BDMV and plays it.

I guess that this may help BD-Rebuilder to generate FullDisc backups that will play on PS3 when written to DVD5/9 (BD-5/BD-9).

Dean

[shon3i]

PowerDVD 8 recognize as BluRay, PowerDVD as AVCHD?? problably beacuse i write on BD9.

[G_M_C]

Test on Panasonic BD-35:

BluRay creation -> works fine in the Panasonic with Time displayed
AVCHD-Creation -> Crashed the Player.

cu,
Ultimate Pain

Hmm, strange. Just burned .35's output to a DVD-RW, and my BD30 says UNSUPPORT. The AVCHD played, but it took a veeeery long while before the pana finally started playing. Trying a mux with .33's output now.

EDIT: The same DVD-RW written with .33's output worked as perfectly, ffworwarding/reverse ok chapter skipping too. I'll stick with .33 for now.

[SLOVEHEART]

just wondering if anyone has any info about the 'new' panasonic BD-60 or BD-80 players, I am brand new here, my first post in Doom - I am a regular in dvdfab section of cdfreaks, Just starting into the world of bluray, so I have been reading your threads on bd rebuilder and others, Hello ALL:)

[idbirch2]

.35 is an extremely dodgy build and should not be used until the kinks are ironed out. As far as I can tell, it was the first release to include seperate AVCHD and BluRay output modes and as I posted here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1264588#post1264588), completely screws up when outputting split AVCHD because the filenames are not 8.3 compliant (and you can't rename them because they're referenced by the CLPI files!)

I emailed Roman about it a couple of days ago and he assured me that a new version is coming soon and also warned me to be very careful with the output from .35.

[G_M_C]

.35 is an extremely dodgy build and should not be used until the kinks are ironed out. As far as I can tell, it was the first release to include seperate AVCHD and BluRay output modes and as I posted here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1264588#post1264588), completely screws up when outputting split AVCHD because the filenames are not 8.3 compliant (and you can't rename them because they're referenced by the CLPI files!)

I emailed Roman about it a couple of days ago and he assured me that a new version is coming soon and also warned me to be very careful with the output from .35.

I really do hope that he makes the 8.3 naming sceme OPTIONAL. Since not all players require 8.3 filenames, and only developing this for a PS3 (wich is actually a computer) is a moot option imho.

[idbirch2]

No, you've misunderstood. TSMuxer has never output 8.3 filenames, that must be done manually or with a script/seperate app. The problem with .35 split output is that is has deviated from the standard filenames for M2TS files i.e 00000.m2ts, 00001.m2ts etc. Because the actual filename is now ridiculously long, those who need to rename to 8.3 no longer have the option to do so. Fixing this error (which has only apeared in .35) has no effect whatoever on all the other fixes incorporated so far so you can relax.

PS3 (wich is actually a computer)LOL.

[G_M_C]

No, you've misunderstood. TSMuxer has never output 8.3 filenames, that must be done manually or with a script/seperate app. The problem with .35 split output is that is has deviated from the standard filenames for M2TS files i.e 00000.m2ts, 00001.m2ts etc. Because the actual filename is now ridiculously long, those who need to rename to 8.3 no longer have the option to do so. Fixing this error (which has only apeared in .35) has no effect whatoever on all the other fixes incorporated so far so you can relax.

LOL.

The reason i wrote my comment on the PS3 is that i somehow find it a bit stupid, that we have to observe carefull "rules" for a thing that is actually a computer. If it was programmable or usable like the computer it, in fact, is; It would play MKV's / M2TS' straight from the disk., and this whole filename buisines wouldnt even matter. See my comment as sarcasm towards the PS3, cause Sony is clearly in the way of the PS3's maturing into a good machine.

PS: The comment was also given in by the fact that i "don't like Sony" (more sarcasm). I actually will go out of my way to prevent any appliance from the Sony brand in my house.

[idbirch2]

Thanks G_M_C for your shattering insight there on the Playstation 3 and Sony brand but there's really no need to try and justify a completely pointless comment by making another.

[G_M_C]

Thanks G_M_C for your shattering insight there on the Playstation 3 and Sony brand but there's really no need to try and justify a completely pointless comment by making another.

Well actually it is my opinion, but it is based on hard fact; If Sony would be more open to Open Source community there would have been MKV support. And when you have MKV support, you dont need to make BD9's would you ? You can simply transmux the original BD to MKV for backup, in stead of goint through the whole process of reencoding/muxing whatever, a simple (set of) DVD9's with an MKV on it would suffice.

In my opinion, the closed mindset of Sony prevents the PS3 beeing more flexible. But hey, it is a GAMEconsole, not an Home Theatre addition. So it can also be that we must not expect it to become one.

[idbirch2]

Seems to me that Sony aren't the only ones with a closed mindset, jeez. Remuxing to MKV is no eaiser or quicker than remuxing to .ts/.m2ts which the PS will play just fine.

If I want to to play a full BD on the PS, I can do it with one program in one mux. Having the option to mux to MKV, while nice, wouldn't make the process any easier or quicker, it's already incredibly easy.

[rotty]

Hi Ultimate pain

Have uploaded prog for you, you will need to have VB6 run time files on your PC to run it.

Cheers

[turbojet]

More about the Extension Data, version ID and my tests:

* Few tests proved that there is no difference in playback (PS3/Nero Showtime/TMT) when versionID is set to 0100 or 0200 in all files (bdmv/clpi/mpls).

* If extension data start address (offset 0x0c-0x0f) is zeroed PS3 will not recognize DVD/USB/SD card as AVCHD and will not initiate playback. It is possible that if data is written to a BluRay Disc (BD25) PS3 will play it. I have no means to test. Nero Showtime recognizes the content as BluRay if long names are used (clpi/bdmv/mpls). TMT shows always BDMV and plays it.

* If extension data start address points to the extension data, but first four bytes (extension data lenght) is set to zero and index.bdmv ends with these four zeroes

1) Playstation3 will recognize the content as AVCHD only if written to DVD.
2) Playstation3 will not recognize the content and will not initiate playback if data is written to USB/SD card.
3) Nero Showtime recognizes the content as BluRay if long names are used (clpi/bdmv/mpls). TMT shows always BDMV and plays it.

* If extension data start address points to the extension data and the extension data is present, Playstation3 will recognize the content as AVCHD and will initiate playback from all media (DVD/USB/SD card). 3) Nero Showtime recognizes the content as AVCHD. TMT shows always BDMV and plays it.

I guess that this may help BD-Rebuilder to generate FullDisc backups that will play on PS3 when written to DVD5/9 (BD-5/BD-9).

Dean

I can test this if only I really understood what I need to do. Could this be done with a little tool or does it vary between every full backup?

[deank]

It can be done with a tool but here is what has to be done. You need HEX editor.

(1) is the extension data start address (offset 0x0c-0x0f)
(2) is where extension data starts
(3) is on the 4th line - offset 0x4e - 0x51 (in this image: 00 00 01 FA)

If the data in (1) is zero (00 00 00 00) then you have to set it to the value in (3)+0x52. In this example: 0x1fa+0x52 = 00 00 02 4C

If the file is shorter than the calculated value (0x24c) you need to add zeroes to fill it to get bigger in size (0x1fa+0x52+0x04).

At offset 0x24c in this example we have 00 00 03 24. It has to be zeroed to 00 00 00 00. The last zero HAS TO BE the last byte in the file.

http://multiavchd.deanbg.com/exdx.jpg

[turbojet]

Thanks, will give it a shot within a few days.

In a BD-RB full backup index.bdmv I noticed that (1) is zeroed and found (3) which is 00 00 00 86 but I have no idea how to calculate hex.

I uploaded the index.bdmv (http://www.sendspace.com/file/cpjrr0) though if someone is interested in taking a look at it.

[Ghitulescu]

:helpful:
I did over the past weeks a sort of a tests.

So I downloaded for this special purpose a copy of a ripped BD off the net and burned it onto a DVD. Then I took this DVD and test every BD-Player I found along.

Here are the results:

Not a single Panasonic and their clones (or Uniphier based players) were able to play the disc. The Pannies recognised the DVD as an AVCHD one but refused to cooperate.

On the other hand, all Pioneers, all Sonies, all Samsungs, all LGs could do this easily.

Now the list:
:mad:
Panasonic - 30, 50, 35, 55
Onkyo - 606 (Funai made upon Panasonic basis)
Yamaha - the only model (Panasonic basis)
Denon - 1800, 2500, 3800 (all Funai made on Panasonic basis)
Sharp - 20 and 21
Loewe - (it's a Sharp 20)

:)
Pioneer - 70, 71, 51, lx08, 91
Sony - 300, 500, 350, 550
Samsung - all models (about 5 or 6)
LG - all models (about 3)
JVC - the only model (that with loudspeakers)

---===---
I don't know anything about Marantz (they were not connected and the salesmen were not there during my visit).

All the players are EU models, those currently sold in Germany (Saturn, Mediamarkt, Conrad).

About the DVD: it's the "aich qiu vee" benchmark, that was simply decrypted (not demuxed/remuxed or any other manipulation - therefore STANDARD). It fits perfectly a DVD (few bytes less than the max. 4.7GB).

---===---

Conclusions:
The Panny "inability" to play such discs might have 2 causes:
-either the Uniphier chip is limited therefore the Pannies and any other Uniphier-based player would not play normal AVCHD discs EVER.
-or Matsushita is so scared by pirates (or threatened by RIAA) that its firmware would not permit such things, again NEVER.

I do not own a BD-RW unit so I cannot check BD compatibility, but I assume that the things are better (unless they alter the firmware on purpose).

Have a nice day,
and do not change the program for suiting Panasonic and sacrificing its BD compatibility - better focus on BD standard and create a patcher or so for Panasonic, separately.

Ghitulescu

[Ghitulescu]

:)
Pioneer - 70, 71, 51, lx08, 91
Sony - 300, 500, 350, 550
Samsung - all models (about 5 or 6)
LG - all models (about 3)
JVC - the only model (that with loudspeakers)


Forgot here the 2 models from Philips which are Samsungs in disguise.

[Ghitulescu]

About the DVD: it's the "aich qiu vee" benchmark, that was simply decrypted (not demuxed/remuxed or any other manipulation - therefore STANDARD). It fits perfectly a DVD (few bytes less than the max. 4.7GB).

Also I used 2 discs, one having and empty CERTIFICATE folder and one not having it. I knew there might be a problem with this folder.

No changes in the list - the players either played both discs or none, no mixted results.

[deank]

In a BD-RB full backup index.bdmv I noticed that (1) is zeroed and found (3) which is 00 00 00 86 but I have no idea how to calculate hex.

You could've opened windows calculator (scientific mode), select (o) HEX and do the math: 86+52=D8

Here is the file with changed offset $0f from 00 to $d8:

http://multiavchd.deanbg.com/index-orig.bdmv

@Ghitulescu: You can edit your first post. No need to post one after another :)

[turbojet]

Thanks deank will try soon. Do I have to do anything else to this file like change header to 00100 and/or zero out to (2) in your diagram?

Ghiteulescu: Is that VC-1 or H.264 on the BD5 you burned?

If it's VC-1 that's what this thread is mainly about

If it's H.264 you'll probably need to disable 24p playback in settings.

You do have some unique players that haven't been identified as (in)compatible on the list (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=144674) Your test could be very helpful if you used H.264 BD5.

[Ghitulescu]

Thanks deank will try soon.

Ghiteulescu: Is that VC-1 or H.264 on the BD5 you burned?

If it's VC-1 that's what this thread is mainly about

If it's H.264 you'll probably need to disable 24p playback in settings.

You do have some unique players that haven't been identified as (not) compatible on the list (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=144674) Your test could be very helpful if you used H.264 BD5.

1. It's VC-1, at least the part I've seen.

2. I do not own any of them. I did the test in order to buy one :)

3. I would gladly repeat the test but I need a BD5 with H.264. And it has to be an industrial one (100% compliant) not a self-made one, otherwise the results are compromised.

[Ghitulescu]

You do have some unique players that haven't been identified as (in)compatible on the list (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=144674) Your test could be very helpful if you used H.264 BD5.

It might be useful to say that this thread lists BD-Players that are compatible to the output of BD-rebuilder on BD5. Holywood uses Sonic Scenarist, a software that guarantees 100% compliance because they have acces to the original specifications (not available to the author of BD-RB unless he sold his house to pay them and also agreed NOT to disclose these to anyone).:p

[turbojet]

Oh ok, I don't think a retail H.264 BD5/9 exists, but I didn't think a VC-1 BD5/9 existed either.

That compatibility list is based upon BD5/9 encoding with x264 (using settings that have been figured out to be as compliant as it can be).

If you ever feel up to to doing that test you can run aich qiu vee through BD-RB as movie only or you could use a trailer and run it through RipBot264 using bluray output and bluray/standalone profile, or I could encode a trailer that is compliant for you.

[turbojet]

It might be useful to say that this thread lists BD-Players that are compatible to the output of BD-rebuilder on BD5. Holywood uses Sonic Scenarist, a software that guarantees 100% compliance because they have acces to the original specifications (not available to the author of BD-RB unless he sold his house to pay them and also agreed NOT to disclose these to anyone).:p

Could be but all but 2 known players working with all free tools isn't half bad.

I'd be interested in seeing if those 2 Sharp players can even play Scenarist output on a red laser, I'd lean towards it can't.

[Ghitulescu]

If it's H.264 you'll probably need to disable 24p playback in settings.

You do have some unique players that haven't been identified as (in)compatible on the list (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=144674) Your test could be very helpful if you used H.264 BD5.

Well, I've read almost everything mentioned here about BD-players, so it must be worth mentioning that the BD5 I've burned has the following characteristics:

-it was a 16x verbatim made by Taiyo Yuden burned at 4x with PX716 (almost 0 errors ;-)
-it's a VC-1
-has menus (I'm a beginner, I cannot tell if there are DVD-like or BD-Java - but since it's a benchmark BD it must be java-driven)
-I've also tested DVD+R, DVD-R and their rewritables - the same result
-it was NOT a movie-only BD5 (it seems that some players are more compliant to movie-only BD5s)

and the models were exclusively European and region/zone locked (A/2). Maybe the US models are more strict or more relaxed ...

[rotty]

I am certain that ALL AVCHD discs are H264 encoded. This is the AVCHD standard. The Panasonics will play AVCHD bd5/9 encoded H264. If you use RipBot or BD Rebuilder, the blu ray files are re encoded to H264 regardless of the original encoding.

[turbojet]

I am certain that ALL AVCHD discs are H264 encoded. This is the AVCHD standard. The Panasonics will play AVCHD bd5/9 encoded H264. If you use RipBot or BD Rebuilder, the blu ray files are re encoded to H264 regardless of the original encoding.

Indeed AVCHD only supports H.264 video.

I'm not sure what you think AVCHD is but RipBot264 and BD-RB both use TSMuxer which doesn't support proper AVCHD output, yet. Even when it does I can't see it being of much use to these programs but we'll see.

If you are referring to "-either the Uniphier chip is limited therefore the Pannies and any other Uniphier-based player would not play normal AVCHD discs EVER.' I'm a bit confused on what he meant as well.

[Ghitulescu]

Oh ok, I don't think a retail H.264 BD5/9 exists, but I didn't think a VC-1 BD5/9 existed either.

That compatibility list is based upon BD5/9 encoding with x264 (using settings that have been figured out to be as compliant as it can be).

If you ever feel up to to doing that test you can run aich qiu vee through BD-RB as movie only or you could use a trailer and run it through RipBot264 using bluray output and bluray/standalone profile, or I could encode a trailer that is compliant for you.

That's exactly my point.

The HQV Benchmark is authored in Scenarist and it's therefore 100% compliant to standards. What other people do is to guess the specifications, like they did with DVD. A big :thanks: to them, but they will never obtain a 100% compliance except for one-movie-BD or any other simple BD5s.

The players are REQUIRED to play standard BDs so the goal would be to obtain self-made BD5s that are 100% compliant. And not to patch compliant BDs to suit Pannies, Sonies or other producer.

On the other hand I find it quite stupid to drop 24p in order to watch a movie if H.264 encoded. Come on! If I have a HDTV camera that can 24p (yes, there are such models) should I reencode the film, each film, to please the f**ing Panasonic? Please! I better buy Pioneer, or Sony or Samsung or or or ...

[rotty]

Yes, it was just that I saw mentioned earlier that someone was making or had made a VC-1 AVCHD disc. As far as im aware there's no such thing.
As for Ripbot, every AVCHD disc I have made works on the Panasonic BD35.
Have had NO luck with BD Rebuilder, none of the discs worked.

[turbojet]

Yes, it was just that I saw mentioned earlier that someone was making or had made a VC-1 AVCHD disc. As far as im aware there's no such thing.
As for Ripbot, every AVCHD disc I have made works on the Panasonic BD35.
Have had NO luck with BD Rebuilder, none of the discs worked.

What's your definition of AVCHD?
As I stated earlier TSMuxer doesn't output AVCHD. So I'd be interested to know what program you are using to mux AVCHD.
I really think you mean a movie only BD muxed by TSMuxer.

Ghitulescu: 100% compliance is the goal for tools produced on this forum I believe. DVD was able to accomplish this, it just took some time. A lot of players seem to be playing games when it comes to red versus blue laser. Panasonic's do seem to be the most pesky player that has had at least some success, which makes it a great candidate for a testing box.

[Ghitulescu]

If you are referring to "-either the Uniphier chip is limited therefore the Pannies and any other Uniphier-based player would not play normal AVCHD discs EVER.' I'm a bit confused on what he meant as well.

English is not my mother tongue ;-)

If the limitation to play VC-1 encoded BD5 is in the Uniphier then there is no hope, the players will never be able to play such discs, because it's a hardware limitation and no firmware can change this.

In case Uniphier is the problem and not the grammar, then Uniphier is the chip around which the BD-play is centered. The first generation of Uniphier was in 30, 50, the second one is in 35 and 55. 30, 50, 35 and 55 are the Panasonic models.

For me, as a humble BD-watcher, it plays no role whether VC-1 or H.264 are part of the AVCHD specifications or not, my test had a different purpose: to find out what players can do BD5, which is a BD25/BD50 "light". The very same way as MiniDVD, which was a CD-R containing DVD files and burned as a DVD-Video not as a CD.

I'm glad that the BD5 I've used contained VC-1 since it must be possible to watch H.264 on any player produced by a company that also markets HDTV-camcorders, right?! Like Pansonic, Sony, you know.... Unless they are really really stupid ...

[deank]

The HQV Benchmark is authored in Scenarist and it's therefore 100% compliant to standards.

HD HQV Benchmark original is a Bluray Disc, not DVD, so let's not generalize players' performance based on it if you burned it to a DVD disc.

What other people do is to guess the specifications, like they did with DVD. A big :thanks: to them, but they will never obtain a 100% compliance except for one-movie-BD or any other simple BD5s.

We shall see to it.

The players are REQUIRED to play standard BDs so the goal would be to obtain self-made BD5s that are 100% compliant.

It is impossible to achieve this, because BD standard is for BD discs not DVD (BD5/9) and hw manufacturers are not required to support the latter - in fact it seems they intentionally started to remove support for BD content written on DVD.

[rotty]

Sony and Panasonic hold copyright on the standard they call AVCHD. As far as I understand it, it is an MPEG4 H264 compression standard mostley used for camcorders. There are also audio standards within this as I undertand it.
I have no personal view on what the AVCHD standard is, I just accept that as is.
Is your undertanding different because i'm sure its not as clear cut as i've described it.

[nwg]

Yes, it was just that I saw mentioned earlier that someone was making or had made a VC-1 AVCHD disc. As far as im aware there's no such thing.
As for Ripbot, every AVCHD disc I have made works on the Panasonic BD35.
Have had NO luck with BD Rebuilder, none of the discs worked.

AVCHD can be AVC, Mpeg2 or VC-1. It does not have to have AVC video.

[deank]

http://www.avchd-info.org/

http://www.avchd-info.org/format/OverviewChart1.GIF (http://www.avchd-info.org/)

If it had support for anything else than AVC it wouldn't have been given the name AVCHD.

[rotty]

Ive just looked up the definition and paste it below:

AVCHD is a standard for the recording and playback of high definition video. Video is compressed in MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 format, and audio is recorded in Dolby Digital.[1] AVCHD and the AVCHD logo are trademarks of Panasonic corporation and Sony corporation.[2]

[turbojet]

Ghitulescu: In this thread there's already a fix for VC-1 muxed by TSMuxer on panasonic (maybe all uniphiler players) which may fix your test case for all those players except the sharp based ones. But with a menu a lot of players are unsupported but I think eventually it will be cracked.

rotty: Oh ok, I just got kind of confused when you were stating RipBot and AVCHD together.

deank: does that index.bdmv still need some thing done to it before test?

[Ghitulescu]

Yes, it was just that I saw mentioned earlier that someone was making or had made a VC-1 AVCHD disc. As far as im aware there's no such thing.
As for Ripbot, every AVCHD disc I have made works on the Panasonic BD35.
Have had NO luck with BD Rebuilder, none of the discs worked.

You mean here probably that's not a standard AVCHD.

I did not create an AVCHD with VC-1, I simply had a BDMV folder from an original BD, that was burned onto a regular DVDR in UDF2.50, in order to obtain a BD5. Nobody said anything about AVCHD.

And the Pannies and all other Uniphier-players failed this simple test, while Pioneer, Sony, Samsung, LG, JVC passed. And that happened also in UDF 2.60, which is BTW the format the AVCHD-DVDs from Panasonic burners are created (I thought this might be the problem, that I used UDF 2.50).

I didn't want to start a polemique here, wanted just to explain that the only solution to Panasonic is to patch 100% compliant files/headers. At least this was my conclusion.

Now you have all the details to my test (DVD, files, players, conditions, format) so you can derive your own conclusions. Or you can simply download yourselves the HQV benchmark and experiment. That's your choice, too.

[deank]

deank: does that index.bdmv still need some thing done to it before test?

No... It will either work this way or not at all :)

[rotty]

BD5 is wording used to describe AVCHD blu ray disc (disc=DVD disc).

What you did if I understand it is leave the encoding as it was and took a portion of the file and recorded it to a DVD disc. This is not called BD5 or BD9, as I stated above, BD5/9 implies AVCHD.

[turbojet]

deank: ok thanks

rotty: Oh even more confusing. BD5/9/25/50 and AVCHD are 2 different standards entirely but now I know you really meant BD5.

[Ghitulescu]

HD HQV Benchmark original is a Bluray Disc, not DVD, so let's not generalize players' performance based on it if you burned it to a DVD disc.



We shall see to it.



It is impossible to achieve this, because BD standard is for BD discs not DVD (BD5/9) and hw manufacturers are not required to support the latter - in fact it seems they intentionally started to remove support for BD content written on DVD.

I perfectly agree with you.

There is however a point I disagree. BD5 and BD9 are standardized as well, since they want to sell HDTV camcorders too. Actually the specifications for BD5 and BD9 were ready before those of "real" BD25/BD50.

And I know HQV was a BD, I've said that from the beginning. That was the goal!!!!! To see if the players can cope with other stuff than HDTV camcorder files or not. And of course with 100% compliant files on a purpotedly different medium.

I simply do not understand the logic of the first phrase. I thought people here are interested in having their home-made films on BDR and DVDR (way much cheaper). Since the SD cards are generally 4GB or 8GB (the cheaper ones), probably the DVDR will be the target medium, they can easily accomodate the size + some menus.

I do have hundreds of DVDs, I do consider DVD/DVDR/BD5/BD9 performance as well. It's actually my first creterium in picking up a BD-player.

In fact, the real difference is in the scaling performance, not in BD-HDMI one. In a blind test the normal citizen would not notice (unless told where to look) the differences between the Pio 91 and the Sharp 21, both connected to the same model of TV through identical HDMI-cables - and it's a 10 fold difference in price. I would pay more for fiability, not for an 0.0001% increase in quality.

[rotty]

Yes it sure is fella. Its very confusing. I think (this is only my understanding) that if you put a Blu Ray file (that would of course normally be on a Blu Ray disc) and then re encoded to AVCHD standard and put it on a DVD then they call that a BD5 or BD9. This disc is of course NOT a BD disc and the 5 or 9 tells you that its a DVD sort of posing as a Blu Ray disc (sort of)

[nwg]

If it had support for anything else than AVC it wouldn't have been given the name AVCHD.

Well my player recognises VC-1/Mpeg2 as AVCHD.

[Ghitulescu]

deank: ok thanks

rotty: Oh even more confusing. BD5/9/25/50 and AVCHD are 2 different standards entirely but now I know you really meant BD5.

There are actually 3 different concepts.
1. BD5 or BD9 - they are DVDR containing blu ray files and folders, exactly as a BD but having only 4.7GB (bzw. 8.5GB)
2. AVCHD - this is the format intended for camcorders, in order to put the home made movies to a cheaper medium (DVDR). At the time this standard was developed BD-R/E just hit the market and cost I think some 50€ a piece. AFAIK there were camcorders that shot in MPEG2 (some JVC) and other that used AVC (most others). Therefore AVCHD was not restricted to any of the 3 codecs used in his elder brother, the BD
3. BD - it's an extention to AVCHD (which was the starting point)

But you can read all these in wikipedia ;-)

[rotty]

LOL well im bailing out of this one, I can only say that the paste from the standard I did earlier and the full info that DEAN wrote says AVCHD is MPEG4(H264) transported using MPEG2 data stream but what do I know.
Well fellas im even more confused.

[Ghitulescu]

Yes it sure is fella. Its very confusing. I think (this is only my understanding) that if you put a Blu Ray file (that would of course normally be on a Blu Ray disc) and then re encoded to AVCHD standard and put it on a DVD then they call that a BD5 or BD9. This disc is of course NOT a BD disc and the 5 or 9 tells you that its a DVD sort of posing as a Blu Ray disc (sort of)

If I need to reencode I would not put this on a DVDR (cheap) but on a BDR (expensive). No encoding was meant. Blu rays files and folders that were put on a DVDR in UDF 2.50+ format. Period.
pass - fail.
The rest is philosophy.

[deank]

Well my player recognises VC-1/Mpeg2 as AVCHD.

Yes, Playstation3 does recognize it, too, but the fact doesn't change the standard - it is manufacturer's decision to step outside it's limitations as a way to attract customers to their products.

[rotty]

The most I would compress a Blu Ray file would be (if needed) to compress enough to fit on a 25G disc. (after discarding unwanted streams of course)

[Ghitulescu]

LOL well im bailing out of this one, I can only say that the paste from the standard I did earlier and the full info that DEAN wrote says AVCHD is MPEG4(H264) transported using MPEG2 data stream but what do I know.
Well fellas im even more confused.
Actually not, but I know it's very confusing.
It's a transport stream (which is different from the program stream used in DVDs but similar to the transport stream used in DVB/Sattelite) that may comprise any acceptable video but the video substream should have an AVC header irrespective of its actual codec.

[turbojet]

BD5 and BD9 are standards that haven't been used in the retail market, so they don't really have much reason to support them, luckily almost all still do except they aren't expecting menu's. AVCHD camcorders almost always come with proprietary software that manages AVCHD, outside of this software and nero, AVCHD software support is nearly non-existent. These AVCHD streams are often played from USB devices (supported by most players) but can also be burned on DVD and BD (with less support, much more so then BD5/9)

Some players display AVCHD if it's BDMV and played by red laser you can put that disk in another player and depending on the player it could say BD(MV) which is correct. You put that same content on a BDR and play on your player it will show BD(MV)

So you get confusion between AVCHD and BD from all sides, I think this forum could really use a sticky describing the differences between the 2 so people don't keep misusing the words. AVCHD word would almost be non-existent on this forum if everyone was using them properly.

[rotty]

Hi TURBOJET
Now thats the best idea by far.

[Ghitulescu]

BD5 and BD9 are standards that haven't been used in the retail market, so they don't really have much reason to support them, luckily almost all still do except they aren't expecting menu's. AVCHD camcorders almost always come with proprietary software that manages AVCHD, outside of this software and nero, AVCHD software support is nearly non-existent. These AVCHD streams are often played from USB devices (supported by most players) but can also be burned on DVD and BD (with less support, much more so then BD5/9)

Some players display AVCHD if it's BDMV and played by red laser you can put that disk in another player and depending on the player it could say BD(MV) which is correct. You put that same content on a BDR and play on your player it will show BD(MV)

So you get confusion between AVCHD and BD from all sides, I think this forum could really use a sticky describing the differences between the 2 so people don't keep misusing the words. AVCHD word would almost be non-existent on this forum if everyone was using them properly.
My knowledge in BD is quite limited and I always tried to find the right concepts.

So far I understud the issue, there have been two standards at the begining: BDAV and BDMV. I think you refered to BDAV when you said "no menus" since that's BDAV, blu rays with no menus. On the other hand, BDMV can hold menus, java applets and the whole world. Funny is that the producers drop now BDAV in favour of BDMV, sometimes they refer to them as BD-R ver. 1 and 2.

[turbojet]

However currently I don't think there's enough known information about AVCHD to really define what it is. Some things are known, but there are unknowns like directory structure (does it need /PRIVATE/AVCHD/BDMV or /AVCHD/BDMV or /BDMV) and does it need 8.3 file names.

[rotty]

Just out of interest, would any of you convert down to a 5 or DL DVD to backup your Blu ray. I know that BD media is not cheap compared to DVD. I have tried this with Iron Man and the result was a thousand times better that I thought it would be I must admit but it does seem a shame to downgrade a High Def film. Just wondered if anybody does do this.
Dont know if I can ask this on here but where cheapest Blu Ray media

[Ghitulescu]

However currently I don't think there's enough known information about AVCHD to really define what it is. Some things are known, but there are unknowns like directory structure (does it need /PRIVATE/AVCHD/BDMV or /AVCHD/BDMV or /BDMV) and does it need 8.3 file names.

That's true, the specifications kept changing over time. And remained secret.

However, as I said before, the players that played my BD5 played it irrespective of presence o a CERTIFICATE folder, and for those which didn't it was the same. This behaviour can be of course changed in firmware if they want to.

[deank]

If AVCHD is recorded to SD card media then:
/PRIVATE/AVCHD/ is the root for BDMV folder

If recorded to USB/MS /AVCHD/ is the root for BDMV folder

If recorded to optical media, / is the root for BDMV folder

***

SD/MMC: /PRIVATE/AVCHD/BDMV/INDEX.BDM
USB/MS: /AVCHD/BDMV/INDEX.BDM
DVD DISC: /BDMV/index.bdmv

8.3 names are required only for FAT32 media as SD/MMC/USB/MS.
4GiB limit is for all media by standard. FAT32 does not support larger files anyway.
Optical media (as by standard) should be 8mm DVD, which also can't hold files greater than 4GiB.
Outside the standard - using DVD5/DVD9 it is possible to put 4+GiB files on the optical media. It however is outside the standard and may break playback functionality in AVCHD compatible players.

[turbojet]

As long as you either you have a Sony BD player or don't care about menus and extras, movie only BD5/9's are quite good.
Even most movies with menus and extras look good on BD9, few even look really good on BD5 but some are loaded with really too many extras. I've seen some with over 4 hours of extras and you are lucky to achieve halfway decent results on a BD9 in those cases.

I'm in USA and over the past 5 years have only bought taiyo yuden and verbatim from meritline (http://www.meritline.com/) or newegg (http://www.newegg.com/). They aren't always the cheapest but quite competitive and their customer service, if something was to happen, more then makes up for spending a few more cents on a disk.

[turbojet]

If AVCHD is recorded to SD card media then:
/PRIVATE/AVCHD/ is the root for BDMV folder

If recorded to USB/MS /AVCHD/ is the root for BDMV folder

If recorded to optical media, / is the root for BDMV folder

***

SD/MMC: /PRIVATE/AVCHD/BDMV/INDEX.BDM
USB/MS: /AVCHD/BDMV/INDEX.BDM
DVD DISC: /BDMV/index.bdmv

8.3 names are required only for FAT32 media as SD/MMC/USB/MS.

and the headers are the only other thing?

what do you think about maintaining a bd vs avchd thread that hopefully a mod can sticky?

[rotty]

Thanks Turbojet

I have to say I was amazed at the quality and was expecting bad results. I never keep or create menu's, just want film only so woukld be good for me using DL.
The big but for me is the time it takes, even a pretty fast machine takes a while.

[deank]

No, headers (0100/0200) have nothing to do with AVCHD. 0100 is a bluray header, too as per BD-ROM standard.

REAL AVCHD CLPI/MPLS/BDMV files may contain extended information that has nothing to do with the same files in BD standard. It is like the BDAV files that have completely different structure.

I would be glad to prepare a thread with all the information I can gather and everything I know. Once I'm ready I'll post it and we can ask a moderator to make it sticky.

Did you test with the patched file?

[Ghitulescu]

Just out of interest, would any of you convert down to a 5 or DL DVD to backup your Blu ray. I know that BD media is not cheap compared to DVD. I have tried this with Iron Man and the result was a thousand times better that I thought it would be I must admit but it does seem a shame to downgrade a High Def film. Just wondered if anybody does do this.
Dont know if I can ask this on here but where cheapest Blu Ray media

What do you mean by "convert down" a BD?
You mean the same principle that is used eg in DVD Shrink or Nero Recode or do you mean "downsampling" eg from 1080i/p to 576i or 480i?
The downsampling is not a good idea, better buy the DVD.
The first alternative would be a great idea and I've actually seen some "shrunk" movies on some foreign fora ... What I do not know is whether these movies have been recoded or just transcoded?

[rotty]

Hi
what I meant was does anybody use say Ripbot etc so film fits to a DVD 5 or DL or do you all backup using Blu ray media

[turbojet]

No, headers (0100/0200) have nothing to do with AVCHD. 0100 is a bluray header, too as per BD-ROM standard.

REAL AVCHD CLPI/MPLS/BDMV files may contain extended information that has nothing to do with the same files in BD standard. It is like the BDAV files that have completely different structure.

I would be glad to prepare a thread with all the information I can gather and everything I know. Once I'm ready I'll post it and we can ask a moderator to make it sticky.

Did you test with the patched file?

OK thanks that will hopefully stop a lot of these discussions.

Nope, I have to go over there and guy isn't home, maybe I'll get over there later today but if not hopefully this weekend.

[turbojet]

Hi
what I meant was does anybody use say Ripbot etc so film fits to a DVD 5 or DL or do you all backup using Blu ray media

Yes RipBot is a very popular program for doing mainly this also BD Rebuilder is gaining ground for doing this, but I think it's real strength is full backups for players that support it.

Instead of jumping right to DVD9 you might want to try out 720p / 1080p on DVD5 too, you might be amazed what your eyes see. Personally while I'm not a complete quality freak and I sit a reasonable distance away from the computer a lot of non-action movies less than 2 hours look fine on a BD5 at 1080p, I did both Kill Bill movies like this and they looked 'almost' like the original BD. Judging compression of a movie for BD is kind of tough, I use gknot xvid compressibility test to help me judge what to encode to and what resolution to use.

[Ghitulescu]

Hi
what I meant was does anybody use say Ripbot etc so film fits to a DVD 5 or DL or do you all backup using Blu ray media

I do not currently own a BD player - I did the test to check them up.

But you can see that the EU models having :) can play blu ray content with menus (!!!) on red laser (DVDR). So pick one of them and be happy :)

[turbojet]

I do not currently own a BD player - I did the test to check them up.

But you can see that the EU models having :) can play blu ray content with menus (!!!) on red laser (DVDR). So pick one of them and be happy :)

I have a feeling this has to do with something not being done with current full backups from BD-RB, maybe something in bdmv files. But it's been pretty well tested that most of these players won't play the current BD-RB full backup output.

I'm still waiting to find out if the LG BD370 can play current BD-RB full backip if so that player plays just about everything for less than your average BD player.

[deank]

I think that it is quite the opposite.

When using movie-only (which works always) bdrb uses it's own bdmv files just like multiAVCHD does.

On the contrary - with full backups bdrb uses the original bdmv files without modifications and this is the way things to be done. I believe it is the media that brings the limitation to most players which refuse to play bdrb output.

[Ghitulescu]

I have a feeling this has to do with something not being done with current full backups from BD-RB, maybe something in bdmv files. But it's been pretty well tested that most of these players won't play the current BD-RB full backup output.

That's what I've said before: if these players can play a copied original BD on a DVD with no tampering, then must be something wrong with the current software.

I've specially picked this HQV disc, because was not converted, not shrunk, not even muxed/demuxed/remuxed.

So the ability of a player to play such BD5/BD9 not be influenced by badly written software (no offence intended - read on). If I would pick up a player that played a BD obtained by an imaginary software called say 1Click-Super-HDTVCamcorder-BD-Copy, the result not being 100% compliant due to bad programming, insufficient knowledge etc etc, then I will have a big problem later on, when people like you develop the good software, but hey, may player cannot play good BD5s just the non-standard ones, and I have to find a solution to patch somehow good BDs to make them my-player-compliant. Or I have to change my player.

[turbojet]

Comparing the 'working on most players' bdmv files or maybe some other files to files from BD-RB output would be a sensible approach wouldn't it?

[deank]

I think jdobbs is well aware of all this and he's willing as much as we all are to find a solution for all these strange behaviors. I have no bd-recorder nor other bd-player except the ps3, but we'll get there I'm sure. It's been just 3 months since we all started to work on this blindly.

[alluringreality]

As I stated earlier TSMuxer doesn't output AVCHD.

TsMuxer uses the same .bdmv files as tsRemux. tsRemux took the files from the Nero AVCHD output. See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=126620&d=1229061547 for the files and you'll see tsRemux only changed a couple letters and numbers that Nero uses to label the version. If you were to restrict tsMuxer "Blu-ray" option to AVCHD audio and video streams I can't come up with any reason (besides the headers and empty folders) that wouldn't fall completely within the definition of AVCHD, compared to how commercial authoring software creates their AVCHD outputs. On the other hand the TsMuxer output certainly doesn't seem to be Blu-ray because it will play on the PS3 from DVD media, while all commercially authored Blu-ray outputs will not play on the PS3 from DVD media. My main point is that the tsMuxer index.bdmv file appears to include information only found in commercial authoring AVCHD outputs, but of course tsMuxer allows for more audio and video streams than are allowed within stated AVCHD specs.

[Ghitulescu]

:helpful:
Well, I will do another test (it should have been done by now but I've got the wrong DVD with me :mad: ).

I went to Saturn with a virgin SD card and recorded on two different Panasonic camcorders in two resolutions: 1920 and 1440. It was however too late to notice that the Panasonic burner VM-BN1 that might be bought as a standalone accesory to any HDTV-Camcorder will record only on DVD-R, DVD-RW or DVD-RAM and not on DVD+RW (which I had on me). So the second part of the test will be done another day.

Methodology:
1. record various clips with a Panasonic HDTV camcorder in various HDTV resolutions.
2. keep the SD card intact for camparison. Eventually issue an image from it
3. burn the content of the SD card with VM-BN1
3a. only 1 clip
3b. all the clips
4. compare both SD and DVD in terms of what are the differences
5. play the DVD on all available BD players and notice the playability
6. should anyone be interested in, I will post the files on RapidShare or alternative filesharing services.

Purpose:
1. that helps understanding the way an AVCHD is created.

Reasons:
1. I can assume that the DVD so created MUST work on any Panasonic BD player (and probably on others).
2. Therefore the information should be CONFORM to what a Panasonic BD player would expect.
3. I can also test my future Pioneer on this DVD, since I'll intend to buy one of these Pana camcorders.

[Ghitulescu]

:helpful:
I did over the past weeks a sort of a tests.

So I downloaded for this special purpose a copy of a ripped BD off the net and burned it onto a DVD. Then I took this DVD and test every BD-Player I found along.

Here are the results:

Not a single Panasonic and their clones (or Uniphier based players) were able to play the disc. The Pannies recognised the DVD as an AVCHD one but refused to cooperate.

On the other hand, all Pioneers, all Sonies, all Samsungs, all LGs could do this easily.

Now the list:
:mad:
Panasonic - 30, 50, 35, 55
Onkyo - 606 (Funai made upon Panasonic basis)
Yamaha - the only model (Panasonic basis)
Denon - 1800, 2500, 3800 (all Funai made on Panasonic basis)
Sharp - 20 and 21
Loewe - (it's a Sharp 20)

:)
Pioneer - 70, 71, 51, lx08, 91
Sony - 300, 500, 350, 550
Samsung - all models (about 5 or 6)
LG - all models (about 3)
JVC - the only model (that with loudspeakers)

---===---
I don't know anything about Marantz (they were not connected and the salesmen were not there during my visit).

All the players are EU models, those currently sold in Germany (Saturn, Mediamarkt, Conrad).

Ghitulescu

Turbojet suggested me to add 2 empty directories: BDMV/AUXDATA and BDMV/BACKUP/AUXDATA. So I did and I went for a second round.

Interesting results:
Pioneers, Sonys, Samsungs performed as usual, they accepted and played the disc. :)
The old (30,35,50,55) Pannies were not there, but the new ones, 60 and 80. They refused to play the DVD. :(
Yamaha 2900 (the only model) did not play the disc (incompatible).
Loewe (Sharp 20 in disguise) did not play it. :(
The JVC loaded the disc and played a while then it ejected the disc (was not connected to a TV so I had no input). :sly:

However, both Denons (1800 and 2500) played the disc. :) Thank you Turbojet!

Conclusions:
Apparently the Pannies are different than the other players. If one wants to create DVD with BD content for Panasonic, then the regular software has to be patched somehow according to their "special" needs.

[deank]

BD standard requires these folders to be present even if empty... along with meta/bjdo/java...

[Ghitulescu]

BD standard requires these folders to be present even if empty... along with meta/bjdo/java...
Thank you Deank,

I had no idea of what the requirements might be. Nevertheless, the Panasonic 60 and 80 (which I assume you know are the latest additions) still refuse to play the disc. Of course they recognize it as an AVCHD but no image. At least Sharp and Yamaha say "Not compatible".

According to my experience with electronics, video and computers for about 20 years, it's the firmware that decides what to do in case of a non standard case and this has nothing to do with an alleged standard. And the asians (Koreans I meant) managed to do all these, as a marketing issue. And Pioneer, at the other end of the scale (also Denons, after the modification).

Why do you, BD guru, people that know more than the average user, download the BD, and have a short look at it. It might help!

[deank]

Take a look at what?

I agree about these products that have a relaxed understanding of 'complying with the standards'...

I think Panasonic and Sony present an interesting point in this... Both companies are founders of BD/AVCHD standards but most Sony players are allowed to play almost everything, but Panasonics will follow the standard almost to the letter.

[Ghitulescu]

Take a look at what?

I agree about these products that have a relaxed understanding of 'complying with the standards'...

I think Panasonic and Sony present an interesting point in this... Both companies are founders of BD/AVCHD standards but most Sony players are allowed to play almost everything, but Panasonics will follow the standard almost to the letter.

At HQV

[ps3hacker]

BD standard requires these folders to be present even if empty... along with meta/bjdo/java...

I just checked my Batman blu ray If this is disk is compliant (which we have to assume it is) then Tsmuxers output folders are compliant. The only folder that needs added is JAR in BACKUP

[turbojet]

Does tsmuxer 1.9.4 using avchd output create a working vc-1 disk for panasonics?

[Ghitulescu]

I just checked my Batman blu ray If this is disk is compliant (which we have to assume it is) then Tsmuxers output folders are compliant. The only folder that needs added is JAR in BACKUP

Even if empty?