Redistribution vs Redistribution (series)

[DRP535]

Hi, I've read a lot of previous posts about Bitrate Redistribution and I understand now that I want to use it. I have a question about the interaction of the two settings. Just plain Apply Redistribution vs Apply Redistribution to all VTS (series). Firstly I should say what versions I'm using I guess.

DVD-RB Pro v1.28.2
CCE SP2 v1.00.01.05 (3 passes)
AviSynth v2.5.8

It seems to me that you should be able to only select one of the two types of redistributon at a time. ie. a tick in either 'Enable Bitrate Redistribution' or 'Apply Bitrate Redistribution across all VTSs (series)'. Am I wrong? Does ticking both options at the same time have some special effect or does one option take priority over the other? If so, which is it?

Also, I've read about people using the 'Always use HC mode for Redistribution pass', but in my case this option is greyed out and I can't enable it. Is this because of the particular encoder I'm using? Is this option not relevant or has no function with CCE SP2?

Thanks

[Wombler]

Also, I've read about people using the 'Always use HC mode for Redistribution pass', but in my case this option is greyed out and I can't enable it. Is this because of the particular encoder I'm using? Is this option not relevant or has no function with CCE SP2?


HC does a better job of bitrate redistribution than CCE so you should always use it.

As to why it's greyed out I'm not sure.

Have you defined the path to it in the settings?


Wombler

[DRP535]

Oh doh! HC is one of the free encoders included with the program isn't it? I didn't install any of them because I just thought I would use CCE SP2 exclusively and so didn't need them. Can you please explain to me the advantages of using this HC encoder for the redistribution pass? Is it much faster at producing the same end result or something? I could understand using a different encoder if it was significantly faster and if its job doesn't really impact the quality of the final encode, which remains to be done by the chosen encoder (in my case CCE SP2).

I don't really understand why HC is supposed to be so much better at this than just using the chosen encoder to justify having its very own special setting in the menu structure of the program.

[jdobbs]

HC is handy if you are using CCE Basic, because it doesn't have the capability to do the Q based pass for redistribution. If you have CCE installed, I you can use it for redistribution so it matches the encode. I'm not sure that HC does any better, but frankly I've never done any kind of in-depth analysis or comparison.

Normally redistribution is only done on the main-movie. That's because it is typically the only part of the disc that has multiple chapters and might benefit from it. The main-movie is determined by size. The "Apply to all (series)" option is there for discs that have multiple "main features" like a TV series disc that might hold numerous episodes that each are kept in a VTS of its own. When that mode is enabled, the redistribution is carried across all parts of the disc -- so you have an equal quality spread rather than just redistributing the largest of the episodes.

The "series" option only has effect if the "Redistribution" option is enabled. So if it is checked alone it serves no purpose (explaining why it is grayed out when "Redistribution" is unchecked".

The "Use HC" option is grayed out when there is no path set up for HC... makes sense to me.

[DRP535]

The "series" option only has effect if the "Redistribution" option is enabled. So if it is checked alone it serves no purpose (explaining why it is grayed out when "Redistribution" is unchecked".
Understood, thanks for the explanation. What you say above however is not my experience with the program. The "series" option in my case does not become greyed out of action when the normal redistribution option is unchecked. I am free to check either or both of the redistribution check options whenever and however I want except when an actual encoding is in progress (as then of course all the mode and settings options are unavailable for editing). I would take a screen capture of it to illustrate, but I'm in the process of an encode right now as it happens so I can't.

[jdobbs]

I'm running v1.28.2 right now, and it is disabled when REDISTRIBUTION is unchecked. It may still show the checkmark, but the text sould be grayed out. Since it's in the code, I'm not sure how it could work differently for you...

[Sharc]

HC is handy if you are using CCE Basic, because it doesn't have the capability to do the Q based pass for redistribution. If you have CCE installed, I you can use it for redistribution so it matches the encode. I'm not sure that HC does any better, but frankly I've never done any kind of in-depth analysis or comparison.
You may remember that CCE crashed/terminated silently in certain cases during the redistribution pass. The reason has never been clear, so "Always use HC for redistribution" is also a workaround to prevent such surprises.

[jdobbs]

Yeah, I remember that. But as I recall it was very rare. In fact I've been using DVD-RB CCE SP2 for a long time now (on a daily basis) with it doing its own redistribution, and I don't even remember the last time it happened... definitely long, long ago.

[Wombler]

Also I believe that HC is also more robust at avoiding certain encoder saturation issues that CCE is prone to in certain circumstances.


Wombler

[DRP535]

I'm running v1.28.2 right now, and it is disabled when REDISTRIBUTION is unchecked. It may still show the checkmark, but the text sould be grayed out. Since it's in the code, I'm not sure how it could work differently for you...
My apologies to you Mr. Dobbs for the terrible slight I have made against your programming skills. My encode has finished (successfully) and I am able once again to check my facts. I am wrong and you are right. The series option does indeed become greyed out when the redistribution option is unchecked. I don't know what I was thinking and shall now go and give myself a thoroughly good birching as punishment for wasting your time.

Before I do however, I should just like to thank you sincerely for the wonderful program you have coded. Thank you also for explaining to me the issue I raised about the HC encoder bizzo. Thanks to that I shall not complicate my life by installing that encoder in addition to CCE SP2. I am happy to let CCE SP2 do the whole task on its own. It seems more logical to me that way.

FWIW it sounds like I am using the same versions of software as yourself (the latest published in all cases) and I too find them to be supremely reliable, predictable and consistent. I have no issues at all. I just have to tweak the target sectors value a bit as now that I've discovered the encode menu option, my rebuilds are coming out rather undersized by a bit, so I can easilt afford to allow a bit more fat in the main video encoding.

Thanks again and I'll be off now for a right good thrashing. :scared:

[jdobbs]

Thanks again and I'll be off now for a right good thrashing.Hey! You're not that albino priest from "The DaVinci Code" are you? :)

[Wombler]

Thanks to that I shall not complicate my life by installing that encoder in addition to CCE SP2.

Just so you're aware, HC is not at all complicated to set up or use.

All you need to do is have the HC encoder on your hard disk and tell DVD Rebuilder the path to it in the settings.

If you then use the 'use HC for redistribution' option DVD Rebuilder will handle everything automatically without the need for any user intervention.

HTH.


Wombler

[jdobbs]

Or just run the DVD-RB installer and it will put it where is should be...

[DRP535]

Yeah I know. I chose not to install it because I thought I would never need it. Less clutter and simpler install = less chance of something getting corrupted or going wrong. I'm sure it does a perfectly fine job, but I've got a very reliable installation working here now exclusively with CCE SP2 which I have no problem with, so unless there is a verifiable advantage to using HC over CCE SP2 such as speed or quality or both, then I just see no reason for me to add it now. As has been explained, it appears to be a handy work around solution for lesser versions of CCE. That's great and it's very clever to have been implemented like that, but I just don't need that work around for a problem that I don't have. Thanks for all the advice and suggestions though. It is much appreciated.

[jdobbs]

Less clutter and simpler install = less chance of something getting corrupted or going wrong. I guess you've proven that to be wrong. I'd suggest you stop trying to out-smart DVD-RB and just let it do its job. I would guess this won't be the only issue you will run into by installing in a non-standard way.

[DRP535]

Umm, what? This reply makes no sense to me.

I guess you've proven that to be wrong.
How do you work that out? I have said I don't have HC installed (nor any other encoders apart from CCE SP2) and yet my installation is proving to be extremely reliable. How does this prove wrong my conclusion? If I had everything installed with multiple encoders and all the other stuff I don't use and it still worked perfectly reliably, then I agree, that would make my statement rather pointless, but this is not what I have.

I'd suggest you stop trying to out-smart DVD-RB and just let it do its job.
I'm doing no such thing. I am using the program exactly as designed and it's working flawlessly. The only very minor "tweak" I've made which is just slightly out of the ordinary is to edit the TargetSectors parameter to better fill up the space available on the disc. I hardly think this counts as "trying to out-smart DVD-RB"

I would guess this won't be the only issue you will run into by installing in a non-standard way.
What "issue" do I have exactly? I have said over and over that the program works perfectly. Have you accidentally replied to the wrong person in the wrong thread perhaps?

[jdobbs]

I was referring to this:Also, I've read about people using the 'Always use HC mode for Redistribution pass', but in my case this option is greyed out and I can't enable it.
I'm not trying to be difficult, and I'm sorry if it sounded that way, but a lot of people read this forum, and the point I want to make is that when you follow a non-standard installation, there are parts of the program that may not function.

I am simply using this post as a reminder to all. I have received innumerable e-mails and "bug posts" in the past in which someone was frustrated because some option was not available to them -- only to find they had downloaded the "Update only" ZIP file and selectively installed parts of the program.

Examples: "The program can't find an OCX." -- "It won't register itself." -- "It says AVISYNTH is not installed?" -- "Hey, why does it not work when I push ENCODE?" -- "None of the encoders can be enabled." -- "It won't make an ISO file."

All I want to do is say to all: "Use the full installation package -- it works."

[Wombler]

unless there is a verifiable advantage to using HC over CCE SP2 such as speed or quality or both, then I just see no reason for me to add it now.

There are verifiable advantages as referred to in the various posts above but extremely technical explanations of these are to some extent irrelevant, as there's no need to understand exactly how it does what it does to be able to accept that it works.

The guys here don't really mind which way you choose to go (and I've no axe to grind here either) but you did ask the question and the expert advice is to use the installer to avoid potential future issues and use HC for redistribution (for an improvement in quality in the event of encoder saturation issues).

Just because your setup appears to be 'working flawlessly' at the moment doesn't mean you won't experience the problems referred to; in the future.


Wombler

[DRP535]

That's good advice I shall remember, thanks. When I encounter the problems described, I shall employ the HC redistribution work around.

[Wombler]

No problem but bear in mind that encoder saturation manifests itself in the sub-optimal compression of particular cells and may not be apparent until you've checked the entire DVD.

So waiting until it happens is kind of like closing the door after the horse has bolted. :)

In the past I've seen it cause very pronounced glitches in certain cells and there's no way I'm aware of to predict in advance, when it's likely to occur and to what degree playback quality will be affected.

It's your call though. :)


Wombler

[DRP535]

Well, as it happens I have just finished a rebuild which has ended up slightly oversize for the disc (part of my trial and error tweaking of the TargetSectors parameter in the ini file), so it needs to be redone. I have reinstalled HC, tweaked the TargetSectors downwards and I'm gonna redo it with HC for the redistribution pass just to see what it looks like and to find out whether it's any faster or not. To this end, are there any settings for HC I should be changing from the defaults for best quality, or does it not matter in the slightest when only using it for the bitrate redistribution? As it is, I have left them all alone.

[Wombler]

That's a good question.

The quality/speed setting is overridden and DVD-RB chooses fast mode automatically as this setting makes no difference when purely using HC for bitrate redistribution mode (this was mentioned in previous changelogs as far as I recall).

Presumably the other settings are only relevant to full encodes with HC but to be honest I'm not 100% certain of that and Jdobbs would really be the person to ask about this.


Wombler

[jdobbs]

Nothing to do... HC settings are all controlled by DVD-RB.

[DRP535]

Hmm, interestingly, with nothing else altered at all, HC doing the redistribution results in a slight increase in the resultant image size. Despite a decrease in the TargetSectors value of 300 between using CCE SP2 to do the redistribution and using HC to do it, the disc image size has increased by 2MB. If nothing else, I guess this proves it does make a difference. Whether that difference is better or not is another matter.

[Wombler]

Nothing to do... HC settings are all controlled by DVD-RB.

Excellent!

Thanks for confirming that.


Wombler

[Wombler]

Hmm, interestingly, with nothing else altered at all, HC doing the redistribution results in a slight increase in the resultant image size. Despite a decrease in the TargetSectors value of 300 between using CCE SP2 to do the redistribution and using HC to do it, the disc image size has increased by 2MB. If nothing else, I guess this proves it does make a difference. Whether that difference is better or not is another matter.

2MB is nothing over an entire disc so you can ignore that as it's of no material consequence and is just a side effect.

The real difference is in the relative bitrate distribution which affects quality throughout the entire disc.

Needless to say this can be difficult to assess in real world terms as it depends heavily on the source material used, the encoder used, and even then is very subjective.


Wombler

[gizzin]

I found a couple scenarios where redistribution actually made the resultant bitrate worse. It actually gave bitrate where it wasn't needed. Anyone else ever had this? So after that happened I never really used it anymore.

[Wombler]

That's never happened here that I'm aware of but to be honest even if I did find a glitch I'd look for a solution rather than analysing a disc to that degree.

I've had problems in the past with encoder saturation and using HC fixes and pre-empts that.

I'm very particular about image quality and I've a very good eye for compression artifacts/glitches so if I can't visually spot any problems then as far as I'm concerned there's nothing to worry about. :)


Wombler

[Sharc]

----- It actually gave bitrate where it wasn't needed.
How do you know that it wasn't needed?

[Wombler]

How do you know that it wasn't needed?

That's what I was wondering. :)

It's also why I'd referred to analysing a disc to that extent.

Life's too short for that IMHO. :D


Wombler