Improving resolution [Archive]

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carlmart

27th February 2009, 13:57

I have two cameras: a DV one and an HDV one.

The problem is how to use them both, be it as DV for SD screening or improving resolution to get to HD.

Let's start with DV. Even if both cameras are Sony, have three CCDs and are semi-pro, their image is different. Some adjustments are in order, at least in post-production.

Better yet: perhaps there's a way to shoot already thinking in that "boost" or "soften" that will be provided later on, and adjust settings accordingly.

What plug-ins should I start making tests with?

Some days ago I tried to use a "sharpen" filter on a DV image I had to improve resolution, and the only thing I got was an increase in the "halo" area along the objects borders, increasing the video look instead of diminishing it and making it look like film.

Perhaps what I need is a mix of several plugins, but I would like to know what to start with.

2Bdecided

27th February 2009, 16:47

You can't make DV look like HDV. No point trying.

You can easily make HDV into DV. Most HDV cameras will shoot DV anyway.

Then it's just a case of the usual matching issues between cameras - e.g. colour balance. You usually do this in your NLE with skill and care, having set both cameras up to be as close as possible to start with.

EDIT: if you're asking for the best way of upscaling DV to HDV, that's a useful question, and there are lots of relevant upscaling threads in the AVIsynth section. However, relying on good upscaling is not a good way to shoot + conform new content - it's just a "least bad" way of incorporating old content.

Cheers,
David.

carlmart

27th February 2009, 17:38

You can't make DV look like HDV. No point trying.

Neither would I try to. If you see my writing I said HD. So yes, that would involve upscaling.

You can easily make HDV into DV. Most HDV cameras will shoot DV anyway.

Yes. Mine is a Sony Z1 and does that. It can also downconvert from HDV to DV. It's still discussed what is better: shooting in HDV and downscaling or directly shooting in DV. Nowadays I am doing the former.

Then it's just a case of the usual matching issues between cameras - e.g. colour balance. You usually do this in your NLE with skill and care, having set both cameras up to be as close as possible to start with.

Yes, I have done that. Interestingly enough the DV shots, from a Sony PDX10, look crisper and with more detail than those from the Z1. Until now I have chosen to go black and white on one of them, but I think maybe avisynth allows more latitude with more transparency.

My NLE (Avid Xpress) allows some good handling in colour adjust, but not in texture. That's why I called this improving resolution.

EDIT: if you're asking for the best way of upscaling DV to HDV

No, that's part of the question. I am looking for ways to improve SD images too. And you can't (or shouldn't) upscale to HDV, but to HD.

and there are lots of relevant upscaling threads in the AVIsynth section. However, relying on good upscaling is not a good way to shoot + conform new content - it's just a "least bad" way of incorporating old content.

I will look into them too. I already did on some and didn't find what I was looking for.

About how to shoot considering the upscaling, maybe it's just part of my film background. Where you shot considering how the lab would process that film later. Perhaps there's a way to get better results by doing that in this process too.

2Bdecided

27th February 2009, 20:36

carlmart

27th February 2009, 21:30

For HD>SD interlaced, about every possible approach made its way into this thread...
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=139102

For HD>SD progressive, it's just a case of trying out the different resizers (and sharpeners). Or, if you want to avoid flicker on interlaced displays, see this thread:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=139948

Thanks, I will have a look at both.

Is it stating something far too obvious to say that it's pointless upscaling DV (or any SD) to HD?

Probably so. But I was curious to see what you could get. I did see some very good stuff on a video forum a time ago, with some stuff that was upscaled and did look better than the original.

You can do it by hardware too, like Miranda, but you have to get the equipment. I want to know how far you can get.

I would say making it intentionally different (B&W like you suggested) is a smart idea - making it look like a "special effect" you can sometimes get away with it.

As I said, I wonder why the DV stuff looked better than the HDV. Probably because light was low and the Z1 is not good with more gain.

Another idea: have the SD footage playing on an SD TV, and film it with an HD camera.

What about the TV lines? What would I get that way?

Yesterday I was having a look at some topic on Doom9 concerning upscaling a cartoon. What I wonder is what happens when upscaling. When I upscale a DVD on my player and look at it at 720p, the results are a lot better than when I screen it at 480p. So why wouldn't upscaling DV by software improve things too?

I don't think any of these options really integrates newly shot DV footage into an HD workflow convincingly, but YMMV.

My intention is to learn with this process, even if results are not what I might expect.

Blue_MiSfit

27th February 2009, 21:34

First of all, you can improve the look of a good, clean DV source somewhat with good interpolation, sharpening, and grain addition, but you're not going to match an HD source. Period.

I think it's a great idea to shoot in HDV. It nets better looking SD than DV can, IMO.

You'd better edit everything in SD though. Here's how I'd do it (if I had lots of time, and didn't mind the intermediate file sizes)

1) Shoot HDV and DV as necessary. Shoot everything in either 24p or 60i.
2) Conform all files to SD masters using AviSynth to field-match or bob-deinterlace as necessary. I'd store everything in MJPG, uncompressed, or lossless at 24p or 60p. Avoid interlacing :) You could also sharpen the DV->SD sources to make them similar to the HDV->SD sources. LSFMod is my personal favorite ATM.
3) Edit using these SD masters, do your color correction etc in the NLE, as they're usually much better at this than AviSynth can be (at least, from a UI perspective)
4) Export your final product from the NLE via frame-serving (so you can avoid possible color space conversions etc...) to a lossless format
5) Use this lossless export as your source for DVD / H.264 encoding.

If you want to do the whole thing in HD - shoot it all in HD, and edit in ProRes or CineForm.

Here's an important question - what NLE / platform are you running on? I'm assuming Windows?

~MiSfit

carlmart

27th February 2009, 22:49

Your approach is very interesting and worth investigating. I am currently involved in doc I shot myself with both cameras in 16:9. HDV on the Z1 and DV on the PDX10. Integrating them somehow is the key.

As DV is better for medum to close-up shots, that's what I do. HDV is much better for wide shots but resolves differently than DV for close-ups, more filmlike perhaps.

First of all, you can improve the look of a good, clean DV source somewhat with good interpolation, sharpening, and grain addition, but you're not going to match an HD source. Period.

You mean match an HD from what source?

What puzzles me is how great look upscaled images outputted by my DVD player @ 720p. Why can't I get such results from a DV source. Of course it would have to be clean. It's very much like blowing up 16mm film: if it's underexposed or grainy it will look bad.

You name three things I would like try on some of my doc shots: interpolation, sharpening and grain addition.

I think it's a great idea to shoot in HDV. It nets better looking SD than DV can, IMO.

You mean shooting HDV for DV downscaling? Why not HDV for an HD product?

You'd better edit everything in SD though. Here's how I'd do it (if I had lots of time, and didn't mind the intermediate file sizes)

OK. Time wouldn't be a problem. But why edit in SD?

1) Shoot HDV and DV as necessary. Shoot everything in either 24p or 60i.

Both cameras have 60i. The 24p in the Z1 is fake, not good. On the Z1 I may shoot 50i, to edit in PAL and looking a bit film-like; later going up to 60i. But that would leave me just one camera, and you need two cameras for a better edit.

2) Conform all files to SD masters using AviSynth to field-match or bob-deinterlace as necessary. I'd store everything in MJPG, uncompressed, or lossless at 24p or 60p. Avoid interlacing :)

More processing I will have to learn: field-match and bob-deinterlace.

What file type would that be? I am not sure Avid Xpress can read MJPG.

You could also sharpen the DV->SD sources to make them similar to the HDV->SD sources. LSFMod is my personal favorite ATM.

Well, I already have something I shot on a park, in the afternoon, with both cameras. I may start with that for comparison.

LSFMod it is, then. What parameters to start with?

3) Edit using these SD masters, do your color correction etc in the NLE, as they're usually much better at this than AviSynth can be (at least, from a UI perspective)

Good approach. That's the one I was thinking off: improving resolution first, adjusting color later. I use 3prong colorfix plugins which work great in Avid, better than its own.

4) Export your final product from the NLE via frame-serving (so you can avoid possible color space conversions etc...) to a lossless format

What that format would be? I export as mov, which preserves the originals quality, usually to an m2p to make the DVD from. But I am planning to broadcast this project, and hopefully the one ones to follow. So what do I export to?

5) Use this lossless export as your source for DVD / H.264 encoding.

OK.

If you want to do the whole thing in HD - shoot it all in HD, and edit in ProRes or CineForm.

If you get me the money!

My concern is to output programs I can screen in HDTV. Discovery, and that I know for a fact, was shooting in HDV shows to be screened in HDTV.

Here's an important question - what NLE / platform are you running on? I'm assuming Windows?

Yes, Windows XP. Not going to Vista yet.

Was considering FCP, which seems to be better than Avid for HD, but it would be later on.

Blue_MiSfit

28th February 2009, 04:02

Your approach is very interesting and worth investigating. I am currently involved in doc I shot myself with both cameras in 16:9. HDV on the Z1 and DV on the PDX10. Integrating them somehow is the key.

Okay, so we already have a mixture of HDV and DV footage. Fine.

You mean match an HD from what source?

Either a really good HDV / AVCHD camera, or something better, like a 1080p telecine.

What puzzles me is how great look upscaled images outputted by my DVD player @ 720p. Why can't I get such results from a DV source. Of course it would have to be clean. It's very much like blowing up 16mm film: if it's underexposed or grainy it will look bad.

You can get surprisingly good results if you're willing to spend the time. AviSynth is powerful. I think you'll be pleased. Just keep in mind that shooting the same scene with two cameras - one HD and one SD, you won't ever get the SD to match the HD. It will look good, sure, but you can't magically turn 480 lines into 1080 lines :)

You mean shooting HDV for DV downscaling? Why not HDV for an HD product?

You certainly can use HDV for HD. That's what it's designed for :) I was just thinking of lowering everything to a greatest common denominator (SD), but you want to produce HD content, so now we're doing the opposite! :D

You name three things I would like try on some of my doc shots: interpolation, sharpening and grain addition.

Yep. Here's a basic skeleton script I'd use for taking a 480i60 source, and upscaling it to 1080i60. There's been lots of discussion on this subject, and I don't often work with interlaced video, so it might not be perfect.

AVIsource("Clip.avi") #Let's assume NTSC true anamorphic 16x9 DV, decoded via Cedocida into YUY2 4:2:2

#First, we need to bob-deinterlace. My usual standard is YADIFmod, but there are lots of options
EDI=NNEDI(field=-2)
YADIFmod(mode=1, edeint=edi)

#Now, we're at 720x480p60, hopefully aliasing free!
NNEDI(field=0, dh=true).turnright.NNEDI(field=0, dh=true).turnleft

#Now we're at 1440x960p60, hopefully looking reasonably good!
Spline36resize(1920,1080)

#Now we're at 1920x1080p60. Now would be a good time to start cleaning things up

#Start with fft3dfilter or fft3dgpu in chroma-only mode. DV usually has a lot of chroma noise, so I'd start with moderate settings, and work up as necessary
fft3dfilter(plane=3, sigma=1, sigma2=2, sigma3=2, sigma4=1)

#Now a generic MVDegrain2. There's lots of options here as well (MC_Spuds, and other MVDegrain wrappers)
super = MSuper(pel=2, sharp=1)
backward_vec2 = MAnalyse(super, isb = true, delta = 2, overlap=4)
backward_vec1 = MAnalyse(super, isb = true, delta = 1, overlap=4)
forward_vec1 = MAnalyse(super, isb = false, delta = 1, overlap=4)
forward_vec2 = MAnalyse(super, isb = false, delta = 2, overlap=4)
MDegrain2(super, backward_vec1,forward_vec1,backward_vec2,forward_vec2,thSAD=400)

#Now we should be pretty nice and clean! Let's do some sharpening. Here's a basic LSFMod
LSFMod(Smode=5)

#And finally, let's add some grain!
GrainFactory3(g1str=5, g2str=7, g3str=10)

#And to re-interlace everything:
Separatefields.SelectEvery(4,0,3).Weave

Want to compare that to a simple upscale? Drop the re-interlacing line, and compare to this:

AVISource("clip.avi")
Bob()
LanczosResize(1920,1080)

I think you'll be suitably impressed :)

AvsP is an invaluable tool for working with AviSynth. Learn it :)

Both cameras have 60i. The 24p in the Z1 is fake, not good. On the Z1 I may shoot 50i, to edit in PAL and looking a bit film-like; later going up to 60i. But that would leave me just one camera, and you need two cameras for a better edit.

Shoot everything in 60i. Frame-rate conversions are a PITA. Just do 60i... SO much simpler (and this coming from the guy that's advising you to use multiple instances of NNEDI and MVDegrain2 on a 480i->1080i upscaling script :P

What file type would that be? I am not sure Avid Xpress can read MJPG.

It had damned well better!!! :) MJPG is a great common format. If not in the AVI container, then it should certainly support it in the QuickTime MOV container!

Well, I already have something I shot on a park, in the afternoon, with both cameras. I may start with that for comparison.

Fantastic! If you want to upload the DV / HDV files somewhere, I'd love to take a look!

Good approach. That's the one I was thinking off: improving resolution first, adjusting color later. I use 3prong colorfix plugins which work great in Avid, better than its own.

I figured as much. I've always been impressed with both the speed and simplicity of Avid's color correction! With the workflow I'm proposing, you'll be able to feed 4:2:2 MJPG into Avid, and have good accuracy for color correction.

What that format would be? I export as mov, which preserves the originals quality, usually to an m2p to make the DVD from. But I am planning to broadcast this project, and hopefully the one ones to follow. So what do I export to?

I would suggest exporting to a lossless VFW (avi) codec like HuffYUV if you can. I'm not sure how Avid's export engine works. I'm most familiar with Premiere. If you can export via QuickTime, you should be okay. Just use PhotoJPEG at 100% quality. That will maintain 4:2:2 color, and isn't unmanageably large.

Once you've spit out your master, you can again load it into AviSynth, do any last minute stuff you might need (a final sharpen, noise reduction, or perhaps dithering), and feed the result directly into an awesome MPEG-2 encoder like HC! Alternatively, you could feed it into my dear friend x264 and produce fantastic quality H.264 video ;)

My concern is to output programs I can screen in HDTV. Discovery, and that I know for a fact, was shooting in HDV shows to be screened in HDTV.

Absolutely. HDV is a perfectly capable acquisition format, provided you are aware of, and know how to work around its limitations.

Was considering FCP, which seems to be better than Avid for HD, but it would be later on.

For ProRes, yes FCP is awesome :) I personally don't like FCP that much (since I'm a Windows guy), but lots of people think it's the best thing since sliced bread! I say use what you know, and for me, that's AviSynth, which requires Windows, and therefore means Avid or Premiere :D

Anyway, I hope my suggestions have been helpful. Please feel free to ask any questions. I'm always very interested to help someone involved in production / post learn how things really work under the hood, and how to do things "right" :)

~MiSfit

carlmart

28th February 2009, 04:25

MiSfit,

I will take some time to comment your comments, but I am glad you were around. Thanks.

As I already learnt how to load-up small excerpts in VideoHelp, will see if I do that in the week-end.

Pity that next week I will be travelling, so there won't be much more from me for the next 7 days. But as soon as I come back I will continue at full speed with avisynth.

As I still have to shoot a bit more, I will be able to do that with this background helping me.

See you!

Blue_MiSfit

28th February 2009, 09:16

Cool, I eagerly await it :)

2Bdecided

1st March 2009, 23:12

When I upscale a DVD on my player and look at it at 720p, the results are a lot better than when I screen it at 480p. So why wouldn't upscaling DV by software improve things too?With respect, your DVD player is probably working with a higher quality source (Hollywood movie) - and you aren't comparing 480i vs 1080p every few seconds by cutting between them. Your eyes adjust to the soft but jagged-free upscaling, and prefer it to the soft and jagged(?) 480p. Throw in some native 1080p and the upscale will look what it is: soft and lacking in detail.

Good script from Blue_MiSfit, but if you're shooting interlaced and blowing up to 1920x1080, you might need a better bobber than yadiff. If so, try mcbob or tgmc - but be warned: they're very slow.

If you really want HD, you need an HD camera. It doesn't have to be expensive. Lots of people are using consumer Canon HDV machines for "B roll". Some people are selling more expensive SD camcorders to pay for them ;) Depends what you want - if SD is much more important, then obviously your PDX10 is going to give better SD pictures than a _much_ cheaper HDV machine.

Cheers,
David.

carlmart

1st March 2009, 23:56

With respect, your DVD player is probably working with a higher quality source (Hollywood movie) - and you aren't comparing 480i vs 1080p every few seconds by cutting between them. Your eyes adjust to the soft but jagged-free upscaling, and prefer it to the soft and jagged(?) 480p. Throw in some native 1080p and the upscale will look what it is: soft and lacking in detail.

Point taken. Pity I don't have the time yet to start experimenting, as I'm getting ready for my trip tomorrow.

But it might be worth doing some tests with my DV camera and seeing it direct and through the DVD with upscaling. Then we can talk a bit more on what does what.

I am not sure if I can play DV through the component output in the Z1 camera, because then I might also compare DV and HDV of similar scenes. I think that is the test I should do to have a reference on what I should look for.

Though I will only be able to watch @ 720p, which is the maximum my plasma screen can take. Over that it will downscale. In any case the Z1 only outputs 1080i AFAIK.

Good script from Blue_MiSfit, but if you're shooting interlaced and blowing up to 1920x1080, you might need a better bobber than yadiff. If so, try mcbob or tgmc - but be warned: they're very slow.

OK. Let's talk about them when I start my tests.

If you really want HD, you need an HD camera. It doesn't have to be expensive. Lots of people are using consumer Canon HDV machines for "B roll". Some people are selling more expensive SD camcorders to pay for them ;) Depends what you want - if SD is much more important, then obviously your PDX10 is going to give better SD pictures than a _much_ cheaper HDV machine.

I bought the PDX10 when HDV was just starting, and I didn't want to risk all that money an F1 did cost back then. And now I will get very little if I try to sell the PDX10.

That's why I'm looking into what I can still get from it image wise.

Small HDV cameras like Canon's or Sony's have two limitations: only one CCD/CMOS and crappy lenses. You may get away on close to mid shots and as long as you don't move the camera.

Blue_MiSfit

3rd March 2009, 05:31

Small HDV cameras like Canon's or Sony's have two limitations: only one CCD/CMOS and crappy lenses. You may get away on close to mid shots and as long as you don't move the camera.

Bingo.

They're fine for consumer usage, and maybe for shooting an interview or something with good lighting and a tripod etc, but their lenses and CCDs are simply not very good when it comes to noise, dynamic range, etc... Lots of pixels though :D

~MiSfit

carlmart

4th March 2009, 13:05

Bingo.

They're fine for consumer usage, and maybe for shooting an interview or something with good lighting and a tripod etc, but their lenses and CCDs are simply not very good when it comes to noise, dynamic range, etc... Lots of pixels though :D

Once again we seem to agree on another point. It looks that we have both been there and probably quite know what to look for.

Pity I am now in Buenos Aires and not in Rio de Janeiro, so that we could start our tests with the stuff I already recorded. That only next week.

I am looking forward to it.

Blue_MiSfit

4th March 2009, 20:34

Rio de Janeiro! What a wonderful city. I visited a year ago for the first time, and enjoyed it very much. Are you Carioca?

~MiSfit

*.mp4 guy

7th March 2009, 06:29

If you really want to know what you can get out of your dv footage, post a sample in the avisynth usage forum, and ask advice on blowing it up to HD resolution. You should get a few good suggestions, and you can use the one you like the best.

Sagekilla

9th March 2009, 14:53

If you're feeling particularly sadistic, you can try this:

# Deblock and Denoise, optional
SmoothD(3,4,1,1)
src = last
super = src.MSuper(pel=2)
bvec2 = super.MAnalyse(isb=true, delta=2, overlap=4)
bvec1 = super.MAnalyse(isb=true, delta=1, overlap=4)
fvec1 = super.MAnalyse(isb=false, delta=1, overlap=4)
fvec2 = super.MAnalyse(isb=false, delta=2, overlap=4)
src.MDegrain2(super,bvec1,fvec1,bvec2,fvec2)

AddBorders(8,8,8,8).SSSharp(strength=5).GradFun2db(1.51).Crop(8,8,-8,-8)
NNEDI(0,dh=true).TurnLeft().NNEDI(0,dh=true).TurnRight()

Didée

9th March 2009, 18:07

@Sagekilla: that ain't work if you don't *use* the super clip ...
[...]
super = src.MSuper(pel=2)
[..vectors..]
src.MDegrain2(super,bvec1,fvec1,bvec2,fvec2)
[...]

Blue_MiSfit

9th March 2009, 20:04

I can't wait to see test clips ;)

smok3

9th March 2009, 20:40

some random notes, while still fresh;

i have just finished a c-production music video, it was shot with 2 kameras: sony hvre1 and older pano dvx100. Pano was set to f6 (the movie mode curves) and got me some letterboxed '16:9' DV footage, sony was set to cine-curve as well, to easy the post i have shot using wide DV mode (so basically all the material was DV). All material is also progressive.

Now in post, project was done using wide preset (premiere cs3), so the pano footage was upscaled.

CC
primary CC was to behave the signal and to get the colors close to each other (the image is still completely different, sony looks mucho sharper)
secondary CC was applying some false color looks, some vignete and some slight grain (edit: and some chroma bluring).
mastering correction was slight luma compression and not-so-slight chroma compression.
post-mastering was forcing TV levels to all versions (including the one for the web).

Came out pretty well at the end - the point here is that multiple CCs will give you closer to the uniform look (while that might not be technically correct), of course you can do plenty damage for a music video, not all kind of projects would survive that.

regrets:
it would either need;
a. a lot more post to make some sort of faked DOF
or
b. proper DOF adapters for both cameras to get that sexy shallow depth (at least on close-ups)
or
c. use some more crazy tech altogether, like using Nikon d-90 for example.

p.s. why DV? i could spent more time editing and less time thinkering about conversions, easy ;)

2Bdecided

9th March 2009, 21:32

Does the "cheats" DOF trick of getting a long way away, and then zooming in, work with those cameras? If you have the space, and the camera is steady, the resulting video can be just what you want - it can be a pain to shoot well though - you think your tripod is stable until you try this! ;)

Cheers,
David.

smok3

9th March 2009, 23:12

it would work (and it did to some point), however you can't just build on such shots (i did actually a lot of handwork using wide lens as well - and those shots are actually the best in this case).

with other words, i regret i didn't get a look like this one for example;
http://vimeo.com/834458
(these guys used canon dslr)

carlmart

10th March 2009, 04:47

Rio de Janeiro! What a wonderful city. I visited a year ago for the first time, and enjoyed it very much. Are you Carioca?

Well, even if born in Buenos Aires, after living 30 years in Rio I do consider myself carioca!

carlmart

10th March 2009, 04:49

carlmart

10th March 2009, 04:52

I can't wait to see test clips ;)

Right now it's late night here and I just came back from Buenos Aires. Tomorrow expect to start trying the samples.

One thing: how do I capture HDV from Windows XP? I know how to do that from Avid, even if I never tried it yet. Until now I have been downconverting HDV to DV from the Z1.

Blue_MiSfit

10th March 2009, 09:22

IIRC, HDVSplit works well :)

~MiSfit

smok3

10th March 2009, 09:30

or you think one step ahead and record to hard-drive on location....

carlmart

10th March 2009, 11:38

or you think one step ahead and record to hard-drive on location....

When these portable/affordable HD systems came along there was a split between card-based ones and tape based ones.

Both had compromises, but I found time limitations & cost the bigger issue in card systems.

Then HDD portable recorders came as the great savior for card cameras and also for tape cameras, both using firewire interface.

It has surprised me that no one, absolutely no one, raised the main problem of using firewire interface on location shooting: the connector. It's a very serious issue, as I see it. The connector is not a locking type and it doesn't remain completely stationary on camera or HDD.

Now you can get the Sony EX1 and EX3 cameras that record more than 50 minutes in one card, which is certainly more practical and affordable than Panasonic ones.

smok3

10th March 2009, 11:44

the main problem of using firewire interface on location shooting: the connector. It's a very serious issue, as I see it. The connector is not a locking type and it doesn't remain completely stationary on camera or HDD.

hmm, maybe that would be an issue if you didn't attach the drive itself directly to the camera.
edit: i do usually shot to tape as well at the same time, so there is always 'backup' if something goes wrong.

carlmart

10th March 2009, 11:54

hmm, maybe that would be an issue if you didn't attach the drive itself directly to the camera.

Not really. The best holding solution I have seen is a sliding one that you fix between camera and tripod. All others, like the popular "belt-type" are potentially dangerous for moving situations.

HDD systems are quite expensive, BTW, as they are not just HDDs.

In any case, it's not something I am very inclined for.

Tape is still much less epensive and much better to store than all others, even if hugely compromised in bandwidth.

smok3

10th March 2009, 21:05

The best holding solution I have seen is a sliding one that you fix between camera and tripod
that's what i'am using. Yes they are pricey.

carlmart

12th March 2009, 22:14

OK. Now I'm back.

I am having some problems to make HDVSplit to recognize the camera.

Windows has already seen it, identified it as Sony Z1 and all that. But not HDVSplit.

The read-me file says I have to install a DVHS driver, which I can't find anywhere. But on a Google I made people seem to use HDVSplit straight away. So I wonder what may be happening.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PLEASE DISREGARD ABOVE. THE CAMERA WAS SETUP FOR DV. AFTER RE-READING THE MANUAL AND SETTING TO HDV THINGS ARE FINE.

I left this because some people reading it might have faced this same problem and remember how to solve it.

Blue_MiSfit

13th March 2009, 09:49

Welcome back!

Toss a sample up on megaupload or somewhere similar when you get a chance :) I'm eager to see your footage!

carlmart

13th March 2009, 12:49

How long should be those files I am uploading?

In EasyShare, which is the uploader I used in the past, a 26 sec HDV file, which is 86.000Kb long, is taking forever to upload. It says it will take more than 3 hours!

Any other place to do that faster?

Guest

13th March 2009, 14:04

www.mediafire.com

carlmart

13th March 2009, 19:48

Well, after several comings and goings with Mediafire, I got to understand that my grand total in files can't exceed 100MB.

So I think I will just capture smaller chunks to see if I can put the two files there. But they can't exceed 10 seconds each, apparently.

2Bdecided

13th March 2009, 21:14

carlmart

13th March 2009, 21:37

I thought you wanted someone to suggest how to upscale DV nicely? If so, you need to upload DV. (Sorry to state the bleeding obvious - maybe I've missed something in two pages?!) Are you just uploading the HDV for comparison?

My query pretends to get to know how to do both things: upscaling DV and, when shooting along with an HDV camera, finding a way to use the DV stuff to look as close as possible to the HDV.

As I have already shot some stuff using both cameras, it might be useful to see how it would apply there.

carlmart

14th March 2009, 16:19

Well, at last could I upload one file: the one in DV.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/1nmzjmmm3kn/testDV1_a.avi

You can take a look.

After you download it I'll see if I can upload the HDV file. Do let me know when you did, as something may go wrong and I delete the one already there by mistake.

Blue_MiSfit

14th March 2009, 17:56

Downloading :)

I'll let you know what I discover.

~MiSfit

Blue_MiSfit

15th March 2009, 12:03

carlmart

15th March 2009, 16:24

Let's see an HDV clip to see if they intercut reasonably well!

Here it is then:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=baad3af1c8fb5a28d6baebe61b361f7c8143292265456bebb8eada0a1ae8665a#

Please tell me if the URL works OK.

After you download it, we may talk about it, as there are some distortions on the captured file that were not on the original. As I never captured HDV this way before and only through Avid, I don't know what it is.

WorBry

15th March 2009, 20:15

A nice test clip! You're lucky your DV camera creates very clean footage, and you had good lighting!

I got pretty good results. I had Cedocida decode to YV12, since RemoveGrain (in TempGaussMC) didn't like YUY2..

AVISource("C:\doom9\testDV1_a.avi")

TempGaussMC_Alpha3()
spline36resize(1920,1080)

fft3dgpu(plane=3, sigma=1, sigma2=2, sigma3=4, sigma4=1, sharpen=.4)

lsfmod(smode=5)

grainfactory3(g1str=5, g2str=8, g3str=10)
addgrainc(0,2)

separatefields.selectevery(4,0,3).weave

TempGaussMC was a significant improvement over yadifmod+nnedi. I'm quite impressed with the deinterlacing, actually!

~MiSfit

I would have thought that TempGaussMC is not advisable if the intent is to re-interlace after processing, since it acts on the original fields as well as the interpolated fields:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1139797#post1139797

I appreciate that the original fields are lost anyway in the resizing, but would have thought that using a 'true' bobber would be less prone to edge abberations after the upscaled fields are interlaced?

Also, since denoising (MVDegrain) and counter-sharpening are integral components of TGMC, your script is effectively performing two rounds of denoising/sharpening, one before and one after upscaling. Surely, denoising and sharpening each at one point after bobbing (whether before or after upscaling) would make for better preservation of detail?

I guess I should try it myself.

carlmart

15th March 2009, 20:18

Blue_MiSfit,

I was just about going to try the script you suggested, and being, a novice to avisynth as I am, planned to use AVStoDVD as the program to load the scripts in.

Then I remembered that this is not a DVD file but an HD file. So I am not quite sure which path to follow.

Maybe HCgui should be the way, so let's see if I am doing things right:

1) Load your script, with changes over where my source is.

2) What do I write as output file?

3) What do I log file name?

4) What else do I load to get the "Encode" button to work?

Is there any other way you suggest to work with these files?

JohnnyMalaria

15th March 2009, 21:18

carlmart

15th March 2009, 22:09

To compare HDV and upscaled DV from the same camcorder, record HDV to tape and simultaneously use the FireWire output in DV mode and capture to disk. (This assumes that the camcorder hasn't been stupidly designed to encode to HDV and then convert to DV when recording a live image).

Interesting. But how do I get a video file with an upscaled DV image?

For instance: I know you can convert DV to HD-SDI using hardware, like Miranda, or software, like Video Enhancer.

But I wonder what I can get using avisynth. My guess is that, in the case of some software programs, they may simply be using avisynth plugins. Am I wrong?

carlmart

15th March 2009, 22:24

A nice test clip! You're lucky your DV camera creates very clean footage, and you had good lighting!

The camera is reasonably good. You can certainly get better images with a Sony PD170 or a Pana DVX100, but the PDX10 is very good in 16:9.

Lighting was good, but I should have probably used a better F stop. I think it's a bit underexposed. To do things right I should use some sort of waveform metering, I think.

I got pretty good results. I had Cedocida decode to YV12, since RemoveGrain (in TempGaussMC) didn't like YUY2..

In what Cedocida is better than a regular DV codec?

To me, the only real remaining issue is what appears to be chroma halos. I tried fft3dgpu, with mixed results. I've heard awarpsharp is good at fixing this, but I've never used it :)

Well, until I get to do see things myself I can't comment over this. BTW: I will find to find a way to see this on a larger screen. My plasma can resolve up to 720p only, but that should be enough for now. Perhaps I should copy the resolved files to our laptop and see them on the plasma screen.

Let's see an HDV clip to see if they intercut reasonably well!

Could you donwload it? The background in both shots is different, and that is something I will also look into in future setups, if I can.

2Bdecided

15th March 2009, 22:57

@WorBry,

IMO unless you're going to re-interlace to the same resolution and keep those lines in the output, keeping the original lines when deinterlacing is irrelevant. I'd just use whichever works best.

FWIW I think the original source is really nice and clean, and the slight denoising inherent in TGMC might not be appropriate. If I was going OTT, I'd try the various versions of TGMC and the two versions (EEDI2 / NNEDI) of mcbob, to see which worked best.

Cheers,
David.

Didée

16th March 2009, 01:39

Short addendum to 2Bdecided's OT - if TGMC's inherent denoising is an issue, you can always reduce noise before TGMC, and re-add it afterwards. Technically dirty, but quite effective in practice. ;)

a = last
b = a.fft3dfilter(sigma=?,interlaced=true)
c = b.TempGaussMC()

c.mt_adddiff(mt_makediff(a,b).doubleweave(),U=2,V=2)

2Bdecided

16th March 2009, 16:34

To add another suggestion...

I can't see anything worth "filtering", but I think the halo on the bright/dark transitions is horrible. I've never been very happy with attempts to fix these kinds of problems, but here is a start...

AVISource("testDV1_a.avi",pixel_type="yuy2")

converttoyv12(interlaced=true)

#a=last

TempGaussMC_Alpha3()

nnedi(field=0,dh=true).TurnRight().nnedi(field=0,dh=true).TurnLeft()

BlindDeHalo3(rx=3.2,ry=4.5)
limitedsharpenfaster()

spline36resize(1280,960)

sharpen(0.5)

grainfactory3(g1str=2, g2str=4, g3str=5)
addgrainc(0,2)

spline36resize(1440,1080)

limitedsharpenfaster()

#interleave(last,a.Bob().spline36resize(1440,1080))

return last

separatefields.selectevery(4,0,3).weave

Remove the "return last" line to interlace the output.

Uncomment the two "#" lines to compare this processing with a basic bob-resize (which is what many TVs do).

Note: to match HDV, the size needs to be 1440x1080. Using NNEDI gives a little useful anti-aliasing of some diagonals - the difference is just visible.

As for downsizing HDV to match this DV - I think the HDV clip you supplied is a little over exposed and requires colour matching, but a simple bob, resize, slight soften and then (over!) sharpen will match quite well.

Cheers,
David.