Longevity comparison DVD-R and HDD, which makes more sense ?

[LOGiC]

@all,

sorry to bother you guys with questions, but I am about to completely re-organize my system and my behaviour. Up to now I've archived almost everything on DVD-R and it never was a problem for me to stand up one or two times to change the disc or to press play again.

During the last years, HDD space got cheaper and cheaper and I've noticed that I burned a lot of stuff which I would never watch again, one more plus for HDD as you can easily delete this. My main concern on my HTPC is tearing at 24p. I switched between ATI and NVidia but the problem still remains. I have the feeling that the reading speed of my DVD-Rom has something to do with this, even if it should be fast enough.

What do you guys thing which medium has the better longevity, DVD-R or HDD ? How exactly would you archive the HDD's to achieve to reach best longevity ?

And the last thing, which manufacturer is said to have good HDD's, could you probably make any concrete recommendations i.e. for 750GB HDD's ?

Thank you all very much in advance.

[onesloth]

Personally, I don't like storing important stuff on DVDs. they get scratched, take up lots of space.

I wouldn't count on either disks nor HDs lasting at all. I set up a RAID5 array with a ICH9R or ICH10R Intel mobo. The RAID will protect you from single drive failure and the ICH9/10 will protect you from RAID controller failure because any ICH8/9/10 board will recognize a RAID created on any other IHC8/9/10 board regardless of what ports you plug the drives into. ICH9R boards are pretty cheap. If the mobo fails, just get a new one, plug your array in, and you're good to go.

Most good ICH(9/10)R boards have 6 sata ports from the ICH. So, one for your optical drive, one for your system drive (best to keep the sys drive separate from the RAID), and 4 left for 4 1 TB drives (3 TB in RAID5). 4 1.5 TB Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 would give a much better cost/GB but I've read about lots of DOAs with them (at least the last time I was shopping, could be fine now).

An even better mobo will also have a few sata ports from a separate drive controller. Those ports can then take your sys drive and optical drive and you'd have 6 ports for the RAID (5 TBs).

Granted, its much easier to accidentally wipe a RAID than accidentally throw out a bunch of DVD binders. Ideally, the RAID would be backed up to a separate device (preferably on the the other side of the country:cool:) but now you're just getting paranoid.

1 TB drive prices are a better deal than 750 GB drives. The new WD Caviar Green 1TB WD10EADS has gotten a lot of good reviews based on being low power, low heat, low noise, good performance. The drive won't win any benchmarks, but, for archiving, power, heat, and noise are what's important. Be careful not to accidentally get the previous version (WD10EACS). It has significantly less performance for nearly the same power, heat, noise, and price.

[DJ Bobo]

HDDs definitely last longer than DVDs. My burned DVDs give up on me after 3 to 4 years, even though there is not a single scratch on them! I'm so frustrated! Only Verbatim's seem to overcome time (and space ;) :D)
I would still go for DVDs though, since they're still cheaper (7 eurocent per Verbatim-DVD-GB against at least 11 cent per external-HDD-GB).

[Ma-Xell]

I keep losing my DVDs :( :(
I haven't lost a Harddrive (yet)...

[Blue_MiSfit]

Ditto. I have DVDs that sat in a case for a few years. Now when I pull them out, either the entire file system is unmountable, or there are errors in the individual files.

I still have hard drives from 10 years ago that work fine :)

Not to say that you could always assume that to be true. Losing a hard drive is pretty catastrophic, considering 1TB is a _lot_ of data.

I would strongly suggest NOT going with RAID5. Motherboard controllers are notoriously flaky (and slow). Admittedly, Intel's have a better track record than nVidia or AMD, but still - you can't compare these integrated chipsets to a hardware RAID controller.

I think the best way to go (unless you can afford a real, supported, fault-tolerant NAS) is to just use single hard drives, and replicate the data that's irreplaceable. Don't worry about the rest :)

~MiSfit

[Shinigami-Sama]

(7 eurocent per Verbatim-DVD-GB against at least 11 cent per external-HDD-GB).

1 external caddy + unlimited internal drives on a shelf

[DJ Bobo]

@ Shinigami
Still makes 10 cent per internal-HDD-GB :p :D

[tetsuo55]

I would say harddisk's as well, at the moment Western Digital seems to be making the best disks, but they could lose or keep their crown any day. So you have to keep yourself updated.

You need to keep the following in mind:

-Use a raid with data recovery options
-Buy same brand/model for each raid set
-Keep 1 spare drive as backup, again same brand/model
-Scan your discs for datarot every X weeks/months

Finally its best to use a self-healing raid, like ZFS, which unfortunately is not available for windows (but you could set up a server)

A good any-os ready alternative is FlexRAID (which can run ontop of hardware raid for speed if you want to raid0 or raid10) It offers more robust protection than raid5 alone./

[mitsubishi]

Here's a quick comparison on UK prices (pence per gigabyte). I'm not saying they're the cheapest prices (or even that I've done the maths right :p) and no failed burns are considered.

1TB Toshiba ext HD £69.99 (http://www.ebuyer.com/product/145041) 7.00ppg

-------------- DVD5 --------------

Cheap Ridisc 16x 50xDVD-R £5.75 (http://www.digitalpromo.co.uk/rivision-branded-blue-16x-dvdr-50-tub-p-19.html) 2.37ppg (no, I wouldn't either)

TDK 16x 100xDVD-R £16.99 (http://www.digitalpromo.co.uk/tdk-premium-branded-16x-dvdr-100-tub-p-1572.html) 3.61ppg (What I'd buy)

Verbatim 16x 100xDVD-R £20.95 (http://www.digitalpromo.co.uk/verbatim-premium-azo-branded-16x-speed-dvdr-100-tub-p-1528.html) 4.46ppg

-------------- DVD9 --------------

Zero Defex 2.4x 25xDVD+R DL £9.95 (http://www.digitalpromo.co.uk/zero-defex-24x-speed-dual-layerr-branded-85gb-dvdr-25-tub-p-3037.html) 4.68ppg

Aone 8x 10xDVD+R DL £4.95 (http://www.digitalpromo.co.uk/aone-8x-speed-dual-layerr-branded-85gb-dvdr-10-tub-p-1985.html) 5.82ppg

Verbatim 8x 10xDVD+R DL £12.95 (http://www.digitalpromo.co.uk/verbatim-8x-speed-43666-dual-layerr-branded-85gb-dvdr-10-tub-p-3164.html) 15.24ppg


--------------------

I think the prices have come to the tipping point for most people, it has for me. HDD are so much more reliable, quicker, smaller, easier that the price difference is small enough. Encoding video to a size dictated by the capacity of DVD is perverted.

Sure if a 1TB dies you've lost a lot, but you can double backup anything important and drives very rarely fail completely if you look after and monitor them.

[DJ Bobo]

Euh... why is everybody talking about RAID??
We're talking archiving here. Which means, one would be using EXTERNAL HDDs! Instead of burning, I would save my files on an external HDD, until it's full, so I buy the next one, etc etc
Moreover, I need to be able to watch my archived movies on HDD as comfortably as it would have been if they were archived on DVD, which means I don't wanna open my case everytime I need to watch this or that movie.
So this whole RAID-talk is completely out of place imho.

[onesloth]

Euh... why is everybody talking about RAID??

RAID5 would be used to protect you from HD failure for the least cost. If you're comfortable without fault tolerance, then a bunch of hot-swappable drives would certainly be fine (though slightly less convenient since you'd have to swap drives). It'd also make sense if you had more data than you could fit in a RAID. The OP seemed concerned about data loss, though, so with external drives, he'd need backup drives (doubling cost and transfer times). With a RAID5 you get protection for the cost of only one extra drive per array and you have all your data on one volume that's always available.

Depending on your budget and needs, RAID is definitely an option to consider.

[DJ Bobo]

I don't think that was his point.
That's why he asked about the longevity.
I guess, we'll wait until he steps up to clarify things.

[Shinigami-Sama]

an external caddy is like 30$ CAD
a 1tb drive is like 150$ CAD

OR

you can get a hot swap NAS, and and have external drive SETs
put raid 5 on each and plug them into the NAS transfer the files and pull them out and back onto the shelf

[Doom9]

He asked two questions
What do you guys thing which medium has the better longevity, DVD-R or HDD ? How exactly would you archive the HDD's to achieve to reach best longevity ?
One is which lasts longer, a harddisk or a DVD-R. In terms of hours between failures (MTBF) the answer is certainly clear. In terms of little use, physically the answer is also clear but I doubt there's much testing done in terms of storing a HD for a long time without use. Then again, if you keep the HD in your HTPC then that's a moot point and we're back to MTBF.

The other one brings RAID into the mix.. what container / file format or file structure you use really doesn't matter for a harddisk - but what certainly matters is if you add another harddisk or not. You don't increase the lifetime for your HD by adding another one, but you reduce the chance of a catastrophic unrecoverable crash if you add redundancy. Maybe that's not in the letter of the question but certainly in the spirit of the question.

My DVD collection is safely stored away in two 5 bay NAS boxes set up in RAID-5 mode with 5 1TB drives each .. maybe you don't see archiving that way but for me, considering the time ot took to get my entire DVD collection from discs to those devices, having no redundancy is an invitation for disaster. Sure it costs more than DVD discs, but I've had my backups on CD-Rs and DVD-Rs before and moved them all over and the amount of data I lost was staggering. I have yet to lose any data from those NAS boxes or harddrives in general (I had a HD crash once but that was in a new computer). It's only a matter of time before I start doing the same to my HD DVD collection, then my Blu-ray collection (the availability of NAS streaming boxes that handle Blu-ray ISOs has something to do with it, as has the availability of bigger disks). I also have games and music stored on another NAS box (also with RAID-5)..
When I can get a fanless dual core ION box I'm even going to outsource HDs from my PC.. one SSD (noiseless :) for the box, and the rest is done by iSCSI over the gigabit LAN and I'll only turn on the noisy barebone to play games.

[LOGiC]

@all

Thank you all very much for your very detailed replies. I am not concerned about data loss at all. I was couple of years ago, but I am not any longer. I've learned that every storage device can be defect some day.

I am buying just verbatim discs for years now and up to now, I did not have any discs that were unreadable after 3-4 years. My main point really was just to know, if you prefer DVD or HDD for archiving.

[DJ Bobo]

I knew it.
My recommendation is the same then. As long as you can afford Verbatims, I'd go the DVD route.

[davidmoore]

I archive on a HDD because I'm a lazy bastard that doesn't like searching through DVD folders looking for what I want. I also don't like getting up and put the disks in and out of the drive. (I'm using my tv as a monitor so I'm a good 8 feet away on a couch with a diNovo Edge.

[Ma-Xell]

@davidmoore

you are not alone!! welcome to the club... :D

[_DW_]

I do a mixture of both DVD and HDD. Let me explain my setup. I have storage server running 2008 that currently has 1.5 TB on it. I store tv shows and anime on it. Just recently I started adding movies to this array. The array is 6 300 GB drives RAID-5 for at least some protection because I don't back that up. On the other side is the HTPC that I use to play them on.

Currently all my movies are played from a 400 DVD changer. The DVD changer days are numbered because I'm about to expand the 1.5 TB array to 4.5 TB and move all the dvd movies there.

I currently take a movie and turn it into a mkv and put it on the array. I take the original and shrink it to a DVD-R. That DVD-R goes into the big black dvd case. The original goes on a self or a box. If someone comes over and wants to barrow a dvd, they get the DVD-R out of the case. The originals see the light of day once, maybe twice.

I figured I would go HDD because its just cheaper. A 1.5 TB HDD cost about 150 bucks and can hold, say 800 movies. A 400 DVD changer costs 400 bucks. That and the DVD changer is a bitch to operate. The menu sucks, by the time I find a movie to watch I'm no longer in the mood. HDD is the way to go for me at least.

[DJ Bobo]

I want to add something in favor of DVDs for those of you who archive things.
Archival grade DVDs from Verbatim have an estimated life span of 15 years against 10 years for HDDs.

[laserfan]

I want to add something in favor of DVDs for those of you who archive things.
Archival grade DVDs from Verbatim have an estimated life span of 15 years against 10 years for HDDs.I did not know about these. Thanks for posting.

A quick Google suggests only DVD-R and no +R or DL in Archival-grade!?

[DJ Bobo]

I did not know about these. Thanks for posting.

A quick Google suggests only DVD-R and no +R or DL in Archival-grade!?
You're welcome.
Yes, it seems like Archival Grade is only available with single layer DVD-R.

[Doom9]

Why anyone would keep a harddisk for 10 years is beyond me though. 10 years is a looooooong time for an industry that makes products that are usually written off and replaced within 3 years - assuming Moore's law for harddisks (double the capacity every 2 years), in 10 years we'll have 32TB harddisks by then and I doubt anyone would keep their 1/2TB disks (or smaller.. the author stated he's looking at 750GB discs) until that point and had them replaced a long time ago at little cost. And DVD hasn't even been around for 15 years so I'd be careful in believing manufacturer statements. Last but not least a quick price check revealed that those discs cost considerably more per MB than a harddisk (and 8x only).
And.. if you want HD content, single layer DVD-R might be too small , so you can look at archival grade BD-Rs (e.g. here (http://www.delkin.com/products/archivalgold/archival-blue-ray-delkin.html) - they claim even 200 years (let's not get into how ridiculous that claim is given how many Blu-ray readers there will be 200 years from now). I found them for almost 16$ a pop.

By the way.. I have 11TB of redundant storage - having that stuff on DVD-Rs would not only take a significant amount of space, the sheer amount of time taken to burn would mean spending months (and let's not forget about the time needed to get a DVD-9 down to single layer size). And I have a significant non archived HD DVD and Blu-ray collection on top of that. Some time back I moved a significant amount of archived CD-Rs and DVD-Rs (we're talking triple digits) to harddisks and I lost quite a bit of data. From that point on, I could never suggest anybody rely on discs - and it's not like I resorted to the cheapest brands (usually TDK and Verbatim) or burning at excessive speeds (I've usually done about half of what the disc can handle.. e.g. 24x for today's 52x CD-Rs and 12x for the 16x DVD±Rs) or used cheap drives (most CD-Rs were burned using Plextor drives) and of course I always performed validation after burning. Discs were not exposed to any extreme temperatures (always room temperature), nor exposed to direct sunlight nor scratched.
There are a lot more factors that influence a DVD's life than a harddisks - and we all know that bad things happen at the worst possible moment - so I migitate that by harddisk redundancy and email notification as soon as a potential problem is discovered.
And you said it yourself.. your DVDs gave out on you after 3-4 years.. so any storage you're looking at has to be short term (and you cannot rule out a bad disc that you can't read the day after burning).

[onesloth]

10 years is a looooooong time for an industry that makes products that are usually written off and replaced within 3 years.
Since this thread began, Newegg started selling their second 1.5TB drive model (WD15EADS) for $160 and the WD20EADS 2TB for $300. With SSDs nipping at their heels, drive manufactures are betting the bank on breaking Moore's Law.

[_DW_]

Since this thread began, Newegg started selling their second 1.5TB drive model (WD15EADS) for $160 and the WD20EADS 2TB for $300. With SSDs nipping at their heels, drive manufactures are betting the bank on breaking Moore's Law.

Yes, Yes they are. While I sit here and wait for the 1.5 TB to hit $99.

[laserfan]

.. if you want HD content, single layer DVD-R might be too small , so you can look at archival grade BD-Rs (e.g. here (http://www.delkin.com/products/archivalgold/archival-blue-ray-delkin.html) - they claim even 200 years (let's not get into how ridiculous that claim is given how many Blu-ray readers there will be 200 years from now). I found them for almost 16$ a pop.

...Some time back I moved a significant amount of archived CD-Rs and DVD-Rs (we're talking triple digits) to harddisks and I lost quite a bit of data. From that point on, I could never suggest anybody rely on discs...I migitate that by harddisk redundancy and email notification as soon as a potential problem is discovered. And you said it yourself.. your DVDs gave out on you after 3-4 years.. so any storage you're looking at has to be short term (and you cannot rule out a bad disc that you can't read the day after burning).Lots of good stuff in this post, particularly that you can NOT depend on writeable media, whether DVD or CD or BD or what-have-you, the day after you write it, much less years from now.

My own take on this is that for media collections e.g. commercial DVDs or CDs or BD/HDDVDs you make "backups" because you either want to protect your stuff from others (your kids) or you need/want to customize the playback (eliminate clutter or re-position subtitles for example). If disaster strikes with your backups you have the originals, or the latest/best version of the program from a vendor.

For PRECIOUS, irreplaceable items, such as home movies, digital photos, your kid's choir/violin solo/grunge band performance/whatever, and your digitized documents, financial and otherwise, you back up everything in multiple places, and never ever rely on a single backup medium for anything you can't afford to lose.

I use all of: server pc, nas, other pcs on the network, CD/DVDs, external hdds, and USB sticks. Worst that can ever happen to me is that I might lose something I created TODAY and haven't backed-up yet.

[Sagekilla]

I agree: The whole point of backing up my DVD and (now) Blu-ray collection to my desktop is manyfold.
1) I have instant access to the video: No need to search for the disc
2) Worse, I don't have to worry about skipping due to a scratched disc
3) I can keep the original disc somewhere safe
4) I can almost guarantee my original copy will last much longer in it's original casing then any backup I make on another disc or hard drive
5) I don't need to worry about potentially losing my backup disc. They're all in one place on my desktop.

#1 is a big one for me. I hated having to search for a disc only to find it's gone missing or one of my relative's borrowed it. Like laserfan said though, if you really have something that's priceless, you don't keep one copy of it. Ever.

[burfadel]

Burnable DVD's fail over time because the data is written to photosensitive ink. For a genuine bought DVD, the data is burnt to a physical medium (I can't remember exactly what its made of), needless to say the physical medium DVD's therefore don't have the storage issues. Its very important to keep burnt disks out of light, including fluorescent light and sunlight.

Hard drives can fail too, but the idea with a HDD is you replace it every few years, and just copy the material to the new drive! :). At the moment I wouldn't get anything other than a Samsung drive, they are priced really well and have great longevity. I bought 2x750GB 32mb cache Samsungs and a WD 640GB drive at the same time, and the Samsung drives in my opinion are superior. They also run really cool, much cooler than WD or Seagate drives it seems. Heat is one thing that causes HDD's to fail.

Many people have a brand preference, and its often the case they are pro one brand and anti another. Even if one brand brings out a bad product they will stick to that brand. At the moment I wouldn't buy a Seagate HDD, mainly because of the issue they had with many of the 7200.11 disks that caused them to fail after time. Seagate didn't admit that they had a problem for a while which made things a lot worse. Once they finally did admit they had a problem they were very reluctant aboiut it. A friend had a Seagate 1tb, and on the Seagate website there is a drive check tool. He entered his serial for his drive twice in to the check utility and despite it being one of the affected models (there were several), and the firmware on the case said it was one of the affected, the drive tool said he wasn't. Two weeks later his drive failed and he lost almost 1tb of data, and sure enough when he took the drive back to the store the store confirmed is was a drivelock issue (it was a firmware fault that caused the drive to physically make it impossible to access when affected). He was not happy with Seagate!

He also got a 1TB WD drive when they first came out, and that failed too. I wouldn't personally get a 1.5tb or 2tb drive at the moment because they haven't had time to mature, that and I wouldn't get a drive that has more than 3 platters. The reason for this is that the more platters (in general) the more heat, but then thats a brand thing too! Samsung 750GB drives (I have the current model) have 3x250GB platters (the 1TB drive has 3x334mb platters). The WD drive I got, which is still the current model, has 2x320gb platters. The Samsung drive runs cooler :)

In any case, it depends on how much you want to spend, and how much space you need.