Import Title's Intro clip [Archive]

meRobs

25th February 2009, 06:24

I have just begun looking at the latest version of PGCedit, 9.2.
Noticed the audio - a great addition!
Then, I tried Import First Play (startup) clip. It worked easily.

However, Import Title's Intro clip failed!
I had selected the main Title and clicked Title menu > Import Title's Intro .., etc. And on Trace it ran to this new VTS, but it was before the Menu used to 'Play' to the main Title!!

This occured even though the DVD was ripped in DVDFab with 'Jump to main Menu on startup' checked. Yet, it still ran to the new VTS before the menu. It was not supposed to play until JUST BEFORE the movie - not before the menu!

On using Trace in this DVD,I noted that it went to the Pre-Cmds (only) of the main title before reaching the main Menu, which of course is before the actual movie plays.
I checked another half dozen discs I have on HDD, and they all played the main Title's pre-Cmds before going to the first menu.

So, it looks like PGCedit is putting in the Cmds for the introduced clip (new VTS) to fire up after hitting the pre-Cmds of the Title, 'thinking' that the main Movie is about to play?!

Any comments or have I got this wrong?
Thanks
Robin

r0lZ

25th February 2009, 12:36

I haven't checked yet, but your analyse is certainly correct.

Sometimes, a movie PGC is called when the DVD is inserted, but the navigation is redirected immediately to the main menu. This technique ensures that there is a valid "resume point" so that the navigation will know where to go if a RSM command is executed, or if the user resumes manually from the main menu before having played any title.

Currently, PgcEdit doesn't handle this situation. I may try to fix this problem, but don't expect that soon.

Can you specify if you have used the "Jump to Main Menu on Startup" Fab option to rip the "half dozen discs" you have checked? Perhaps it's Fab that adds the jump to the precommands of the main movie. Anyway, if you use PgcEdit, it is better to leave the original DVD unmodified, and use the "Jump to PGC Upon DVD Insert" function after having applied Import Title's Intro Clip.

meRobs

25th February 2009, 23:51

Thanks rOlZ.
Yes, I had used Fab to "Jump to Main Menu on Startup" - I always do this since it is quick.
Because of your suggestion that I should do the equivalent in PGCedit, via Trace, I tried it on the above disc to get it to start at the main Movie instead. I felt unsure of what I was doing, even though I did as per Help, and it didn't work! Maybe if the disc had not been modified by Fab it would have been easier to jump to the Menu. I need to try this and practice a bit!
Thanks
Robin

meRobs

26th February 2009, 06:03

I've been trying to understand two separate issues (1) "Jump to PGC Upon DVD Insert" and (2) how to set & force audio and subPic streams, which is sometimes difficult, eg, when a RSM in the Menu post-Cmds causes play to skip the Movie Pre-Cmds.
I figure I should do both in the one operation!

In an earlier thread rOlZ suggested for "any DVD":
Part 1: determine the target PGC and set the breakpoint:
1. start the trace
2. click on run
3. the main menu comes up
4. click on Audio on the virtual menu, then SELECT
5. select to go back to main menu, then SELECT
6. once at main menu, set the pre/post breakpoint

Part 2: trace to the target PGC and set the default streams
7. restart the trace (click on the Insert DVD icon)
8. click on run
9. the main menu comes up
10. click on Audio on the virtual menu, then SELECT
11. select French, then SELECT
12. select to go back to main menu, then SELECT

Part 3: run Jump2PGC
13. when the trace stops at the breakpoint, run Jump2Pgc

Note: After step 11 or 12, it might also be necessary to go to the subtitle menu, it you need to change the default subpic too.

So, if I can understand this, I can do as I wish.

In my own words:
Step 1: is to get to the Pre-cmds of the target PGC.
If this is a menu, it may have a first PGC without buttons, which is not played a second time, and the buttons may be in the second PGC, which is what we want. So, to reach it reliably, hit 'Run' or Next-BP until the main menu displays and then select anything (Setup, audio, bonus), hit 'Select' to mmove on and in the next sub-menu select Main Menu. We are now definitely at the correct place.
Then set the Breakpoint.
Step 2: is to set up the registers to suit the desired audio and subpic streams.
This requires Trace to be re-started and to work through the various sub-menus (audio, subPic, etc) and finally to the Main Menu again.
Step 3: to set the Jump2 PGC.
Now that the streams have been set, Trace needs to be taken to the Breakpoint. If it is at the Main menu, you are already there, so click PGC > ‘Jump to PGC on DVD insert’. Otherwise, continue with the Trace by clicking 'Select' on the Main Menu until the PGC with the break point is reached. Then, click ‘Jump to PGC on DVD insert’.
Step 4: test, by re-starting Trace.

Have I got that right?

A question now: when all is done, does subsequent play run through all the above steps (Pre- and Post-cmds) or has PGCedit merely added the required Pre-Cmds in the menu PGC to set all the registers?

One more: after doing the above, may I safely blank/delete unwanted titles and cells (menu or Title) and hide some unused buttons in PGCedit and then strip unwanted audio streams in VOBblanker?

Sorry for needing this re-assurance.
Thanks
Robin

r0lZ

26th February 2009, 09:16

Yes, it's perfectly correct.

And yes, you can blank stuff, hide buttons and strip streams the usual way.

Note that, after having applied Jump2PGC, you can use Delete Uncalled PGCs (or Remove Useless Stuff) to clean the DVD. With some luck, some PGCs or even whole VTSs will be unreferenced. That's not the case if the DVD has been authored in such a way that all titles are called from an unique VMGM PGC. Unfortunately, this kind of authoring is frequent.

meRobs

26th February 2009, 09:45

Thanks rOlZ.

Also, I had edited in another question as you were typing in your response. I have more or less answered it myself by testing.

1) if at the end of Step 2, after setting the required streams (Registers), Trace ends up at the main Menu and if this is were the breakpoint is, there is no neeed to continue with the Trace, just click Jump2PGC.

2) The latter Cmd seems to add a minimum of Pre-Cmds in a few PGCs, such as the FirstPlay, the Main Menu and the Movie. So, the final Play does not replay all the Cmds in the choices made before, but gets to the final detsination rather quickly.

Thanks again
Robin

r0lZ

26th February 2009, 11:59

Right.

BTW, many people use Jump2PGC to jump to the first thing that is played by the original DVD. That may seem strange, as nothing is changed, but sometimes the original authoring jump to many PGCs before ending to the first clip. Using Jump2PGC speeds up that part a lot, and you can see the first clip immediately after having inserted the DVD.

r0lZ

26th February 2009, 12:09

I tried Import First Play (startup) clip. It worked easily.

However, Import Title's Intro clip failed!
I had selected the main Title and clicked Title menu > Import Title's Intro .., etc. And on Trace it ran to this new VTS, but it was before the Menu used to 'Play' to the main Title!!

This occured even though the DVD was ripped in DVDFab with 'Jump to main Menu on startup' checked. Yet, it still ran to the new VTS before the menu. It was not supposed to play until JUST BEFORE the movie - not before the menu!

On using Trace in this DVD,I noted that it went to the Pre-Cmds (only) of the main title before reaching the main Menu, which of course is before the actual movie plays.
I checked another half dozen discs I have on HDD, and they all played the main Title's pre-Cmds before going to the first menu.

So, it looks like PGCedit is putting in the Cmds for the introduced clip (new VTS) to fire up after hitting the pre-Cmds of the Title, 'thinking' that the main Movie is about to play?!I've tried to fix this problem, however it's very difficult.

Now, PgcEdit analyses the pre-commands of the original clip. If it is possible to insert the new commands at the end of the pre-commands area, it does so, and the problem you have reported is fixed.

However, that's not always possible. For example, your original pre-commands may contain Break and Links to the movie. In this case, if a Break or a Link is executed, the new commands inserted by PgcEdit will never be executed. Fortunately, it is easy to convert a Break and most Links to GOTOs, and jump to the new commands instead of directly to the movie. The new commands will therefore jump to the new clip, and come back later to the movie.

Unfortunately, it is (almost) impossible to convert the Set commands containing Links to the movie to GOTOs, as the Goto to the new commands can simulate the link part of the command, but not the Set. It's why PgcEdit analyse now the commands, and use the old method if it finds Set+Link commands.

If you wish, copy as text the pre-commands of one of your movies ripped by Fab, and paste them here. I will see if the method used by Fab is compatible with the new method, and if I can still improve it...

meRobs

26th February 2009, 21:22

Thanks for going to all this trouble rOlZ. No wonder PGCedit does so much!

In the future, I shall NOT use "Import Title's Intro clip" as I prefer "Import First Play (startup) clip" which is easier and suits my needs better.
So, please do not work on this issue on my behalf.

But if you wish to continue out of thoroughness and you are interested in what Fab does, then I shall send you the pre-commands. In which case, are you referring to those for the main Movie?
Thanks
Robin

r0lZ

26th February 2009, 22:09

But if you wish to continue out of thoroughness and you are interested in what Fab does, then I shall send you the pre-commands. In which case, are you referring to those for the main Movie?Yes, the original movie pre-commands. But that's not really necessary. I can try by myself, but I don't use Fab, and do not wish to install it just for a simple test. So, if you have an example on your HDD, please post the commands.

meRobs

26th February 2009, 22:43

Here are the Commands for a movie from Fab when set to 'Jump to main Mneu on startup'.

********** pre commands:
[00 B1 00 00 43 E9 00 07] 1 if ( gprm(0) != 17385 ) then { Goto line 7 }
[71 00 00 0C 00 01 00 00] 2 Set gprm(12) =(mov) 1
[71 00 00 0F 00 01 00 00] 3 Set gprm(15) =(mov) 1
[51 00 00 80 80 00 00 00] 4 (SetSTN) Set Audio stream = 0 ; Set Sub-picture stream = 0, off
[56 00 00 00 04 00 00 00] 5 (SetHL_BTN) Set Highlighted Button =(mov) 1024 (button 1)
[30 08 00 0C 01 C0 00 00] 6 (CallSS) Call the VMGM PGC 12, resume cell 1
[00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00] 7 NOP
[61 00 00 0F 00 0E 00 00] 8 Set gprm(15) =(mov) gprm(14)
[71 00 00 0E 00 00 00 00] 9 Set gprm(14) =(mov) 0
[00 A2 00 0F 00 01 00 00] 10 if ( gprm(15) == 1 ) then { Break }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 02 00 02] 11 if ( gprm(15) == 2 ) then { LinkPGN Program 2 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 03 00 03] 12 if ( gprm(15) == 3 ) then { LinkPGN Program 3 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 04 00 04] 13 if ( gprm(15) == 4 ) then { LinkPGN Program 4 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 05 00 05] 14 if ( gprm(15) == 5 ) then { LinkPGN Program 5 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 06 00 06] 15 if ( gprm(15) == 6 ) then { LinkPGN Program 6 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 07 00 07] 16 if ( gprm(15) == 7 ) then { LinkPGN Program 7 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 08 00 08] 17 if ( gprm(15) == 8 ) then { LinkPGN Program 8 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 09 00 09] 18 if ( gprm(15) == 9 ) then { LinkPGN Program 9 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 0A 00 0A] 19 if ( gprm(15) == 10 ) then { LinkPGN Program 10 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 0B 00 0B] 20 if ( gprm(15) == 11 ) then { LinkPGN Program 11 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 0C 00 0C] 21 if ( gprm(15) == 12 ) then { LinkPGN Program 12 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 0D 00 0D] 22 if ( gprm(15) == 13 ) then { LinkPGN Program 13 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 0E 00 0E] 23 if ( gprm(15) == 14 ) then { LinkPGN Program 14 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 0F 00 0F] 24 if ( gprm(15) == 15 ) then { LinkPGN Program 15 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 10 00 10] 25 if ( gprm(15) == 16 ) then { LinkPGN Program 16 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 11 00 11] 26 if ( gprm(15) == 17 ) then { LinkPGN Program 17 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 12 00 12] 27 if ( gprm(15) == 18 ) then { LinkPGN Program 18 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 13 00 13] 28 if ( gprm(15) == 19 ) then { LinkPGN Program 19 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 14 00 14] 29 if ( gprm(15) == 20 ) then { LinkPGN Program 20 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 15 00 15] 30 if ( gprm(15) == 21 ) then { LinkPGN Program 21 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 16 00 16] 31 if ( gprm(15) == 22 ) then { LinkPGN Program 22 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 17 00 17] 32 if ( gprm(15) == 23 ) then { LinkPGN Program 23 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 18 00 18] 33 if ( gprm(15) == 24 ) then { LinkPGN Program 24 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 19 00 19] 34 if ( gprm(15) == 25 ) then { LinkPGN Program 25 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 1A 00 1A] 35 if ( gprm(15) == 26 ) then { LinkPGN Program 26 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 1B 00 1B] 36 if ( gprm(15) == 27 ) then { LinkPGN Program 27 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 1C 00 1C] 37 if ( gprm(15) == 28 ) then { LinkPGN Program 28 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 1D 00 1D] 38 if ( gprm(15) == 29 ) then { LinkPGN Program 29 }
[20 A6 00 0F 00 1E 00 1E] 39 if ( gprm(15) == 30 ) then { LinkPGN Program 30 }
********** post commands:
[30 08 00 06 01 C0 00 00] 1 (CallSS) Call the VMGM PGC 6, resume cell 1
********** cell commands:
[30 08 00 06 01 C0 00 00] 1 (CallSS) Call the VMGM PGC 6, resume cell 1

Hope this helps.
I wonder how you can tell what Fab has added and what may have been there before?
Cheers
Robin

blutach

26th February 2009, 22:49

So, fengtao's system is to place commands in titles and not menus? That is sub-optimal, IMO. I would not use his system and after ripping (and other relevant modifications), use PgcEdit's Jump2PGC.

Regards

Wombler

26th February 2009, 22:57

Interesting.

I would have suspected anyway that PgcEdit does a better job of it, given the debate and expertise that goes into the implementation of these sorts of features, but it's good to have that confirmed.

Wombler

r0lZ

27th February 2009, 01:24

Honestly, I don't think it's a bad job. It might jump to the main movie to establish a valid resume point. PgcEdit does a similar jump, but it places most commands in the menu. However, I wonder if Fab does a full analysis of the DVD navigation to rebuild the right GPRM and SPRM state before jumping to the menu. Lines 2-5 seems to accomplish that, but without the IFOs, I'm not sure. Anyway, it's a better job than AnyDVD's method!

Anyway, that's not the point. In the case of this title, the new PgcEdit method will be applied, and the Break at line 10 will be converted to a jump to the new commands, starting at line 40, and jumping to the imported title. Therefore, the commands inserted by Fab will be executed before the modifications made by PgcEdit, and everything will work as expected.

BTW, the current method causes another problem with this PGC. Since the jumps to the chapters are in the pre-commands and not in the chapter menu (what a bad authoring!), that means that the intro clip will be played even when you use the chapter menu to go to a specific chapter. The new method fixes that problem too.

blutach

27th February 2009, 01:28

I just think you have greater flexibility by touching the title as little as possible.

However, as r0lZ says, the point is to make Import Title's Intro Clip as robust as possible now.

BTW, the current method causes another problem with this PGC. Since the jumps to the chapters are in the pre-commands and not in the chapter menu (what a bad authoring!), that means that the intro clip will be played even when you use the chapter menu to go to a specific chapter. This is quite a standard authoring. You see this a lot with commands like:

[61 00 00 00 00 06 00 00] 1 Set gprm(0) =(mov) gprm(6)
[71 00 00 06 00 00 00 00] 2 Set gprm(6) =(mov) 0
[71 00 00 01 00 00 00 00] 3 Set gprm(1) =(mov) 0
[20 A6 00 00 00 01 00 01] 4 if ( gprm(0) == 1 ) then { LinkPGN Program 1 }
[20 A6 00 00 00 02 00 02] 5 if ( gprm(0) == 2 ) then { LinkPGN Program 2 }
[20 A6 00 00 00 03 00 03] 6 if ( gprm(0) == 3 ) then { LinkPGN Program 3 }
[20 A6 00 00 00 04 00 04] 7 if ( gprm(0) == 4 ) then { LinkPGN Program 4 }
[20 A6 00 00 00 05 00 05] 8 if ( gprm(0) == 5 ) then { LinkPGN Program 5 }
[20 A6 00 00 00 06 00 06] 9 if ( gprm(0) == 6 ) then { LinkPGN Program 6 }
[20 A6 00 00 00 07 00 07] 10 if ( gprm(0) == 7 ) then { LinkPGN Program 7 } etc etc

Regards

r0lZ

27th February 2009, 01:35

Yes, I know. But I hate that complex method. The right and straightforward method is to put the chapter menu in the same VTS than the title, and jump directly to the chapter from the button. No need for that long list of commands.

blutach

27th February 2009, 01:40

LOL - tell that to the studios :)

Regards

meRobs

27th February 2009, 01:46

Wombler

27th February 2009, 08:16

I am currently of the opinion not to use Fab to set the startup point and:
* to use PGCedit to do a Jump to the Main Menu (with Play button) and
* to include in this process the setting of the audio and sub-picture streams.

Then, after insert, 'Play' will fire up the Movie with the desired streams. Thus, I needn't set these as a separate excercise! The streams are not forced, but they should be correct and, in any case, the menus may be used to change them.
Regards
Robin

It's best to avoid any auto-jump methods at the ripping stage IMO as it removes any potential doubt as to the source of any problems that may arise.

I much prefer changing whatever I wish myself in PgcEdit.

Wombler

meRobs

27th February 2009, 22:21

Glad you agree Wombler.

When I said earlier:
not to use Fab to set the startup point
I had realised it was safer to use Jump2PGC, but also, that the pre-cmds added by the Macro send the freshly inserted DVD to the target PGC more efficiently and with the streams already set (if included).
Tres Bien
Cheers
Robin

blutach

28th February 2009, 00:02

Yes, under J2PGC, you can set your target streams and even if, under normal circumstances, the movie starts first then returns to the menu, you can have it starting at the menu! It is a very powerful utility.

Someone also noticed that Fab's routines put SetSTN statements in a VMGM PGC. These are illegal and probably will be ignored.

Regards

meRobs

28th February 2009, 22:38

I have just discovered that the adding of an intro clip at startup or as an intro to the Movie is NOT practical for modern DVD players!

At least, this is so for a Pioneer DVD player DV-400 feeding a 50 inch Pioneer plasma. The player takes a long time to switch titles and the TV is also 'modern', it is equally sluggish when changing TV channels!

As a result, the use of 'Import First-Play startup Clip', which adds a clip as a separate VTS, plays to a ~10 sec pause on the last frame before hopping to the Menu! Similarly using 'Import Title's intro clip', which also adds a separate VTS, has the same delay!

Hence, I shall have to try something else, maybe replace the first cell of the Title?
Cheers
robin

blutach

28th February 2009, 23:32

Remap the newly imported VTS closer to the front of the DVD (e.g. make it VTS 1). Your player is just seeking probably to the outside of the media and back a bit.

I think your statement about modern players is wayyyyy too generalised.

Regards

r0lZ

1st March 2009, 10:54

I agree with blu. Of course, if a title is authored in its own titleset, a little pause when accessing and leaving it is normal, but it should not be longer that one or two seconds. If it is longer, then your player is the culprit. Your TV cannot be responsible of the pause.

Note also that Insert First-Play Clip doesn't modify the original navigation that follows the playback of the imported clip. In many commercial DVDs, there are many VTSs that are visited before jumping to the main menu. Even if you kill them, the VTS will still be visited, and if your player is slow when it goes to a VTS, that could explain the long pause. You may try to Jump2PGC before using Insert First-Play Clip to minimize the seeks.

Try Blutach's suggestion. By placing the intro clip close to the first menu (or the first VTS that is accessed after the menu), it should be possible to minimize the pause.

A pause will also occur if you create a new cell with PgcEdit, and then replace it with VobBlanker. Since the new cell is always appended at the end of the current VTS, the player will have to seek to the end of the VOB files to play it, and come back to the beginning to play the original title. Furthermore, replacing a cell is much more difficult, as the replacing cell must have exactly the same video and audio properties than the original VTST domain.

meRobs

1st March 2009, 10:58

Friends of mine have made complaints about the slower switching times of modern digital gear. Clearly it is my player that is at fault, since the TV merely plays what it is sent. My player gives long pauses when switching Titles on a DVD, as I said above, almost 10 sec for the Intro clip! Even a 3-5 sec delay between VTSs I would consider excessive.

In any case, the options for me are to arrange a fade out (to black) at the end of any initial clip, use Blutach's suggestion or to replace the first cell of a VTS with a larger one that incorporates my additional material!

It is not a problem as long as I am aware of the parameters.
Cheers
Robin

r0lZ

1st March 2009, 11:13

I forgot to say that most players require a long time to recognize the DVD when it has just been inserted. Depending of the quality of the laser and of the media, that may take up to 20 or 30 seconds (or even fail completely)! But when the disc has been recognized and the navigation begins, the First-Play clip should be accessed rapidly.

meRobs

2nd March 2009, 00:26

I stated earlier that:
As a result, the use of 'Import First-Play startup Clip', which adds a clip as a separate VTS, plays to a ~10 sec pause on the last frame before hopping to the Menu!
This was for the disc I mentioned earlier that was ripped in Fab. I actually used 'Import Title's Intro clip', which did so, but also used it as an Intro clip! Hence, the complaint about taking too long may be atypical.

So, I checked the time it takes to hop from a menu to a Title: only 2-3 sec. Hence, the above pause needs to be re-measured.

rOlZ: A pause will also occur if you create a new cell with PgcEdit, and then replace it with VobBlanker. Since the new cell is always appended at the end of the current VTS, the player will have to seek to the end of the VOB files to play it, and come back to the beginning to play the original title.
This needs checking since my standalone jumps chapters very quickly, which I think suggests that a jump to and from the end of the movie may not be too slow.

So, I shall extract the first cell of the movie and (1) add it as a separate VTS (Import as Intro clip) and (2) replaced the initial cell of the movie by itself (after demuxing, and muxing back to IFO/VOB). This will obviously have the correct attributes and VobBlanker will not realise it is the same and place it at the end of the VTS!

I'll let you know what happens.
Cheers
Robin

meRobs

2nd March 2009, 05:11

I've just done the above test.
I ripped the DVD in Fab without any of its Jump2 operations.
I extracted cell 1 of the Movie in VOBblanker, as a VOB.
I demuxed and then muxed the VOB in Muxman to get an IFO/VOB pair and then
(1) in PGCedit: I used the VOB for 'Import as Intro (startup) clip', which became a new VTS. Then, I remapped it to VTS 1.
(2) in VOBblanker I replaced cell 1 of the movie by the above VOB
(3) compressed in DVDshrink and burnt in ImgBurn.

In WinDVD, the intro clip played and there was ~ 9 sec pause on its last frame before moving on!! I had previously blamed this pause on my standalone! In the standalone this pause was only ~2 sec longer than in winDVD!

It must be due to what I did in PGCedit!?

Finally, in winDVD, there was no noticeable pause as cell 1 moved to cell 2. Similarly in my standalone.

Just in case I had made a mistake and cell 1 had not been replaced by itself, and thus moved to the end of the VTS, I re-ripped the DVD and merely replaced cell 1 of the movie with a copy of cell 24, extracted by VOBblanker. In my standalone player, the pause from cell 1 (the copy of cell 24) to cell 2 was barely noticeable. This supports my decision to try this test, based on the fact that chapter jumping in the standalone is quick!

NOTE: in PGC Editor I had left the Seamless joint' check box unchecked.
What does this do?

Hence, it looks like adding an intro bit by replacing cell 1 of a movie by its cell (extracted) with an intro included is smooth and the only problem is matching attributes.
Matching the number of AC3 channels (2 or 6) and its bit rate are probably important but is the sampling rate (48 kHz) important?

Hope I get some comments.
Cheers
Robin

r0lZ

2nd March 2009, 09:03

That thing about the long pauses during VTS switching is absolutely abnormal. I have already used Import Clip several time, and never noticed that problem. Anyway, if the original clip plays correctly, then it should play correctly when it has been imported. What PgcEdit does is only to modify the VM commands to play it. It doesn't modify the clip itself.

The seamless joint flag indicates that the cell is contiguous to the previous one, and has been muxed so that it can be played seamlessly. When a cell has been replaced, it is probably better to leave it clear, as the muxing of the replacing cell might not be compatible. Most standalone players do a little pause when the seamless flag is clear.

And yes, all attributes, including the audio sampling rate, must match when replacing a cell. Anyway, I think VB warns you if it finds incompatibilities in the replacing VOBs.

meRobs

2nd March 2009, 10:04

Sorry folks, I'm a fool!
I have solved the problem. When 'Import First-Play startup Clip' is used its popup has at the bottom: If the clip is a Still choose its playing time' and then, by default, 'Display still fame for 10 sec' was checked! I left it as such, since it wasn't a still.
However, when I check the alternative: 'Don't pause its an animated clip' all is well !!!!
In winDVD there is no detectable pause after it, and in my standalone, it is 2-3 sec, which will go unnoticed if the clip fades to black!

This method is therefore more practical than incorporating an intro into cell 1 of the movie (Replace with modified version).

There remains the question of when or if to use Jumpt2PGC?
1) if done after Importing a F-P startup Clip, I guess it would be possible to Trace through setting up the streams and back to the Start up clip, but, then play would gothrough the origibal cmds and undo the stream settings!?
2) If done before adding the F-P startup Clip, the import's pre- and post-Cmds would do the right thing? I wonder?
I'll have to check it out!

Cheers
Robin

r0lZ

2nd March 2009, 11:01

Ah, yes, of course, if you have left the option to add a pause, the pause is normal! (What is less normal is the behaviour of some players: the pause MUST be taken into account, or the player is not standard compliant!) Anyway, I'm glad the "issue" is solved! ;)

If you want to apply Jump2PGC, do it first, then add your startup (First-Play) clip, otherwise the startup clip will be skipped by Jump2PGC, or Jump2PGC will be totally inefficient.

If you add a Title Intro Clip, you can probably do it before or after Jump2PGC, unless you want to set your preferred streams up. In this case, it is probably better to apply Jump2PGC first. Note however that some players force a different stream when they play a clip. For example, if you force stream 2 with Jump2PGC, it might be reset to stream 0 by some players if your intro has only one stream.

meRobs

3rd March 2009, 10:47

As a check on combining Jump2PGC and Import F-P or Title's Intro clip, I used a DVD which initially ran (Trace) in the following order: Title 2 (11 sec logo) to T1 (Movie) to T4 (warnings) to T5 (2-sec blank) to Main Menu (Scenes, Setup and Play). Then, Play gave the movie.

I ran the Jump2PGC process, including the use of Setup on the menu to choose a sub-picture (Nederland, as a test), to set the Breakpoint and the target PGC at the main menu.

Then, on Trace: it ran to the Main menu (Play highlighted), then on Play: to T5 and to the Movie. Title 5 being there is a mystery even though I could skip it with Ctrl-K.

With the Jump2PGC still set, I used Import F-P startup clip and Trace went first to this new VTS (T6) and then to the Menu, etc, as before. Good!

I then used Import Title's Intro clip instead of the F-P clip, Trace started at the Menu and Play took action to T5, as before, and to T6 (Title Intro) and then to the Movie. Again, good!

Looks like all works!
The only mystery is the refusal of T5 to be skipped.

As always, I have a question: If I am sure that there is only one Menu PGC that Trace always goes to, regardless of what language/audio is chosen, is it OK to NOT run through all the audio/sub-pic choices on the run through to Toggle pre/post Breakpoint? To set the streams after the Breakpoint only?

Thanks
Robin

r0lZ

3rd March 2009, 12:34

Explanation of the T5 mystery:

In the "normal" flow (before applying Jump2PGC), T5 is the last title that is accessed before reaching your target point. Your target PGC is a menu. Now, imagine that, after having applied Jump2PGC, T5 is not visited, and the navigation is redirected directly from the FP-PGC to your target menu. Suppose that, in that menu, there is a RSM command, or the user presses the menu button to resume manually during the playback of the menu. The player will not know where to resume, as no resume point has been defined yet. And, unfortunately, many players simply crash when trying to resume to an undefined resume point! It is therefore necessary to define a resume point before jumping to the menu. This is why T5 is visited (but not played). By doing so, the beginning of the first cell of T5 is memorized by the player as the resume point. When the player will execute the resume operation, it will resume to T5, and T5 will redirect the navigation to the menu after its playback.

Why T5, and not, for example the main movie title? It's because T5 was the last title played by the unmodified navigation. Therefore, when the unmodified DVD is played, it's T5 that is used as the resume point. PgcEdit clones exactly that, to be sure that the navigation will be executed exactly in the same way after having executed Jump2PGC.

I have already tried to change that default resume point, and instead of assigning it to the last played title, I've tried to assign it to the main movie. Most of the time that works well: when the player resumes from the main menu, it jumps to the beginning of the main title. However, in some cases, that doesn't work well. For example, when the main movie is played the normal way (by activating the "Play" button in the main menu), the navigation could be directed to several menu PGCs where some GPRMs and SPRMs are initialized to specific values, necessary for a correct playback of the main movie. In the other hand, when a resume is executed, that PGCs are skipped, and the nav jumps directly to the resume point in the title. Therefore, when the normal resume point is changed to the main movie by the Jump2PGC function, the navigation can become completely confused after a resume. PgcEdit assumes that the last played title is suitable for the resume point, as it was used by the unmodified navigation, but it cannot safely assume that the main movie can be used. As you see, Jump2PGC must clone exactly the state of the player, or bad things can happen.

The breakpoint:

The breakpoint is only a way to help you control the trace. If it has been set correctly, the playback will stop at the right position, ready for the Jump2PGC function. You don't even need to set the breakpoint, but you will have to trace by steps, and be sure to stop when the trace will reach the first pre-command of your target PGC.

Of course, if you know already what PGC must be used, you can set the breakpoint on that PGC, than launch the trace, and apply Jump2PGC directly. You don't need to trace to set the breakpoint. Only the second trace must be executed carefully, as it's during that trace that PgcEdit analyses the state of the GPRMs, finds the last accessed title to set the resume point, and examines which default streams have been set. The first trace is just useful to help the user determine which PGC must be used as the target and to set the breakpoint. You can freely skip it if you know what you are doing.

blutach

3rd March 2009, 12:42

And, unfortunately, many players simply crash when trying to resume to an undefined resume point!
I must say that I have seen many commercial DVDs with no titles visited before the main menu, so I think there is little risk here.

On the other hand, I've also seen lots of DVDs jump to a "dummy title" expressely for the purpose of starting the main movie if Menu (RSM) is pressed.

Regards

r0lZ

3rd March 2009, 13:10

Well, the DVDs that have no resume point defined have also the PUO to prohibit resuming from the menu, and of course, they don't use a RSM command. Unfortunately, most users clear all PUOs when ripping, so PgcEdit cannot rely on the PUOs to determine if establishing a valid resume point is necessary. Therefore, if at least one title is visited before reaching the target menu PGC, PgcEdit assumes that it must be used as the resume point. That might be useless in some case, but it's extremely important in other cases!

meRobs

3rd March 2009, 22:44

Thanks rOlZ, excellent explanation!

That explains why, after doing the above, and I had tried to Ctrl-Delete or Ctrl-K Title 5, PGCedit gave a warning about not being able to remove the cells and suggested I blank them. Even so, it indicated its duration as 0.00?!
Does this value suggect it has already marked them for blanking and that when I next pop into VOBblanker to strip audio, say, T5 will be blanked automatically?
Thanks
Robin

r0lZ

4th March 2009, 01:28

No, PgcEdit doesn't automatically blank the titles skipped by Jump2PGC. (They could be called from another point in the DVD, so that's impossible, and anyway PgcEdit does never that kind of thing without the consent of the user.)

If the title is so short, it's probably because it is so in the original DVD. (Many authoring programs use that trick: they jump to a dummy title just to set the default streams, and perhaps to establish a resume point, and then they go to the menu.) BTW, PgcEdit marks the title duration as 0:00 in the left pane, but it's the duration rounded to the closest second. A more precise duration is displayed in the PGC Editor: a title must be at least approx 1/2 second long. Anyway, when you see 0:00, it's certainly a single still frame, so it is not necessary to blank it.

If you want to remove entierly that title, you can try to modify the jump inserted by PgcEdit in the First-Play PGC to jump to the main movie instead of T5, and copy the first pre-commands added by PgcEdit in T5 (up to and including the first NOP) to the beginning of the main movie. After that, if you are lucky, using Remove Useless Stuff or Delete Uncalled PGCs is sufficient to remove it automatically. But, as you know now, using the main movie (or any other title) for the resume point can be dangerous in some precise cases. (ARccOS protected titles are good examples!) So, if you remove T5, be sure to check if the resume operations work as expected.

r0lZ

4th March 2009, 14:46

I have modified the Jump To PGC function, to include this new dialog:

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7071/jump2pgcresumepoint.png

As you can see, when the target PGC is a menu, and if at least one title is visited before reaching your target PGC, and the last visited title is not the longest title in the DVD, then PgcEdit offers now to use for the resume point either the normal default resume point or the longest Title. As you know, using the longest title might be risky, but since it works well in almost all cases, I think it's a good option.

Note also that the longest Title is not always the main movie (especially if the DVD is a collection of short films), but that's better than nothing. It's what DVDFab does silently anyway, so PgcEdit offers more flexibility. If you wish, you can also modify the resume point manually, as I have explained above.

Enjoy!

meRobs

5th March 2009, 03:38

If PGCedit makes this change (moves pre-Cmds to the longer title) I guess this means the shorter (T5, above) would then be removed or skipped by the Jump2PGC macro?

By the way, the changes you have mentioned, are they for the next version?

Thanks for your constant vigil and willingness to help.
I am sure we all appreciate it!
Cheers
Robin

blutach

5th March 2009, 06:15

It may, and it may not, be skipped entirely, depending on the command structure.

I do not think this is such a good idea and it needs much further thought. What happens if you have an episodic DVD, where ep 4 is the longest? You press RSM and go there instead of ep 1.

And what about multi-story DVDs where the video is the same but the commands or streams might be different? You may pick the wrong one by default!

And what happens in those DVDs with lots of fake titles, all the same length? You might go to one of them!!! You must remember, DVDFabDecrypter has its Pathplayer thingy. It knows which titles are fake and which are real and won't point you to a fake one. PgcEdit can not do this and it might just suggest the longest declared title, which may be fake.

IMO, this is fraught with danger and should not be used at all. If you wish to modify the commands, then do it manually. Or even better, trace the DVD through the main movie, returning to the main menu (or wherever) and only then execute Jump2PGC. In this case, the RSM, by definition, is the main movie (in those unusual cases where another title is played after the main movie, you can eliminate this by simply clicking Root while the main movie is playing) and the only thing you will need to adjust is typically the gprm which sets whether the intro to the main menu should play or not (this is usually very easy to figure out) and perhaps the highlight button to set (sometimes it will come to rest on the Extras button after playback). By doing this, there is never any exposure to risk of the things I have mentioned above and you also have the desired audio and subtitle streams set for you.

Regards

r0lZ

5th March 2009, 10:24

meRobs, yes, in this case, T5 will not be used any more by Jump2PGC. That means that it can be automatically deleted by Remove Useless Stuff (unless it is still called by another PGC.)
And, yes, the changes will be available in the next version.

Blutach, I agree with you. The longest title might not be the right one. But I can probably assume that the user has located the main movie Title, and know if it's the right one. If it's not the case, he can use the default option. Furthermore, if it is not difficult to change the commands to define another title than the last one, it is exactly as easy to change them when the longest title has been used. The commands are exactly identical.

Regarding the fake titles, I don't think it's really a problem, as PgcEdit selects the first title when there are several titles of the same length. AFAIK, this is always the real title, as the protections are always added after the normal authoring. Of course, if there are fake titles longer than the real main movie title, PgcEdit will select a wrong one, but again, the user can certainly verify that. Similarly, for multi-story, the first title is usually the standard version.

Episodic DVDs or compilations of shorts are much more problematic. But it is easy to select the default in this case. Again, I can assume that the user knows that PgcEdit has not selected the right title.

Your trick about visiting the main movie and returning to the menu before applying Jump2PGC is certainly good, but as you know, in this case, the menu intro is skipped. And I don't think that finding which GPRM must be modified is so easy for the average user. Furthermore, the intro might be in another PGC, and in that case, even if you modify the GPRM, the nav will be redirected by Jump2PGC to the wrong PGC, without the intro. Your method is therefore not always applicable.

Anyway, even if the user selects the main movie option and doesn't check the DVD carefully enough, and there is a problem if he resume during the first playback of the menu, the solution is simple: it is easy enough to call the main movie the normal way the first time. After that, he will be able to resume without problem.

IMO, removing all PUOs at rip time, for example, is a much bigger cause of problems than my method. But most users continue to do it. So, IMO, PgcEdit can take that little risk. There is a warning to explain it. I will modify it to explain the risks with more details, but I can't do much more.