Quality speaking VC1 = or better than AVC

[Toti]

I invite everyone to use either WME9 or Nic's WMNicEnc 1.0.2 beta. Use the following AVS script


MPEG2 Bluray Source:
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DG MPG Decoder 1.5.4\NicAudio.dll")

loadplugin("C:\Program Files\DG MPG Decoder 1.5.4\DGDecode.dll")

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DG MPG Decoder 1.5.4\Decomb521.dll")

video=MPEG2Source("C:\Users\Admin2\Documents\Movie.d2v")
audio=NicAC3Source("C:\Users\Admin2\Documents\Movie.ac3",6)
AudioDub(video,audio)


Adapt it to either AVC or VC1 using DGindex format and choose "Quality VBR" at 94% or 95%. It produces a video quality that is very close to the original. I use CBR/48Khz/5.1/Professional 10/24bit for audio.

Now encode the same clip with AVC to produce about the same size of video.

My opinion has better quality to AVC (I use MainConcept 1.6.1 and CineVision 1.2). Also, if wmv is native supported in Windows why use other encoder and container than .wmv?

Any advantages to use AVC in MP4,MKV,TS or M2TS? or do most people use another way to stream like PS3, Xbox, Apple TV, etc...? I only use my PC straight to my TV (Media Center). I want to hear other opinions.

[Dark Shikari]

MainConcept 1.6.1Oh dear.

[neuron2]

I don't want to make any general conclusions like you but I do observe that, considering BD streams I have looked at, VC-1 encodes appear to have less I frame pulsing than AVC ones. I'm sure it's just encoding deficiencies as x264 can produce excellent streams without pulsing.

I don't like the default ipratio in x264, however. But it's configurable, so there's really nothing to moan about.

[poisondeathray]

Oh dear.

He probably means Mainconcept Reference 1.6.1 , not the sdk version number

[poisondeathray]

I don't like the default ipratio in x264, however. But it's configurable, so there's really nothing to moan about.

What ipratio do you usually use?

[Dark Shikari]

He probably means Mainconcept Reference 1.6.1 , not the sdk version numberThat's what I assumed as well--I didn't think it was the SDK version. The "oh dear" equally applies, as the default settings in that reference have no psy optimizations at all.

Now, what the OP has really discovered is that on some sources, the Microsoft VC-1 encoder on good settings can beat the default settings of the Mainconcept H.264 encoder. This is entirely unsurprising and says absolutely nothing about H.264 or VC-1, but says quite a lot about the Mainconcept H.264 encoder (at least on the default settings of the one in the reference).

Now, to the OP, might I suggest you grab a copy of MeGUI or similar and try again? ;)

[Toti]

I don't want to make any general conclusions like you but I do observe that, considering BD streams I have looked at, VC-1 encodes appear to have less I frame pulsing than AVC ones. I'm sure it's just encoding deficiencies as x264 can produce excellent streams without pulsing.

I don't like the default ipratio in x264, however. But it's configurable, so there's really nothing to moan about.

So, AVC can look just as good as VC1 given the right encoding options? I am comparing Quality VBR on VC1. Say if the final encode was 12 gigs then AVC with an average bitrate to produce the same 12 gigs will look just as good, worse or better?

[neuron2]

I experiment with the ratios for I and B until my problematic scenes come out with close quantizers for I, P, and B. When I have them close I can never see pulsing. When they are significantly different I can see pulsing. So I just empirically get them close. My last encode was 0.9 for I and 1.0 for B.

I don't know if this tweaking is needed for encodes other than my VBV-compliant encodes with max bitrate close to bitrate, however. And I also can't say that the gain in quality is worth the loss in coding efficiency for your purposes. My purpose is to make high quality demo streams to showcase my company's silicon; size is not an issue.

The wonderful thing about x264 is that it gives you the flexibility to adjust tradeoffs like this.

[Dark Shikari]

So, AVC can look just as good as VC1 given the right encoding options? I am comparing Quality VBR on VC1. Say if the final encode was 12 gigs then AVC with an average bitrate to produce the same 12 gigs will look just as good, worse or better?H.264 is inherently superior to VC-1 in terms of features--this is basically not argued. Arithmetic coding, adaptive deblocking, spatial intra prediction, and many other features lead to H.264 being basically strictly superior in compression to VC-1.

However, implementations matter more than standards. It's quite possible to make an incredibly bad H.264 encoder (see Quicktime, which could probably lose to a good MPEG-2 encoder), or an incredibly good VC-1 encoder.

In simple terms, the difference between the worst and best H.264 encoder is far greater than the difference between H.264 and VC-1. Therefore, the most important thing to take into account is the implementation used (and of course the encoding settings used on that implementation).

If you want to start by completely ignoring speed and just maxing the quality of the encoder, try the Unrestricted 2pass Extra Quality preset in MeGUI.

[Dark Eiri]

Well, I'm not an specialist or anything, but I've been encoding with both x264 and Expression Encoder (2.0 SP1, so I believe it's the most recent SDK) and I can say that between those two, H.264 by x264 has better quality (with the same overall settings, there's no way to match perfectly between the two, but I tried to balance as equally as I could). It's all about the encoders, if you get some H.264 reference encoders and compare them to x264 you will be surprised, and the same can be said if you get a poor VC-1 implementation and compare it against Microsoft's latest SDK.

Those two also look differently, I don't know exactly how to explain, I think it's about the colors. x264 looks "real life" and VC-1 looks like "film". May be just my eyes, though. Or my decoders.

[neuron2]

May be just my eyes, though. Or my decoders. Or your imagination.

[b66pak]

it worth mentioning that for the same quality (sort of) EE it's a lot slower...
_

[Dark Eiri]

Or your imagination.

That's definitely a possibility.