View Full Version : Differences between a retail and multiavchd/jamat menus?
turbojet
6th January 2009, 22:50
After some testing I found out multiavchd menus on a BD5 work ok Panasonic BD30 but BD-RB menus don't.
Some things I've tried unsuccessfully are:
1. patching the BD-RB output with avchdpatcher
2. hexediting the bdmv files to look like avchd
3. copying the retail menu m2ts in BD-RB output
4. using the bdmv files from multiavchd in the BD-RB output
and all possible combinations of these.
No luck, the closest I was able to get is the logo playing to the menu then stops. I also tried a movie that doesn't have a top menu, just a popup menu, and all I could get was black screen.
I see some reports of BD-RB output playing fine on BD-R discs. Which leads people to believe that menus aren't supported on red DVD5\9. But multiAVCHD menus seem to work!
Is the difference java? If so, can it be removed in original menus and still retain functionality?
Is the difference popup menu? If so, can that be replaced by something that does the same basic thing?
Is the difference something fairly simple like a header of a file?
I can provide some retail menu files if people need them.
I really do hope there is a workaround for this and that people much smarter then me can figure it out. I'm willing to test anything people can offer on a Panasonic BD30.
MadMonkey57
6th January 2009, 23:22
...I can provide some retail menu files if people need them....
If you upload your untouched index.bdmv, MovieObject.bdmv, mpls (menu), clpi (menu), m2ts (menu), I'll try some tweaking and testing on the BD35. If I can get something to work, you can try on the BD30.
alluringreality
7th January 2009, 01:01
bdmv files
Commercial Blu-rays don't use BDMV.
Is the difference popup menu?
The popup menus from Encore seem to work fine in going to AVCHD, so I'd probably scratch that idea. I don't much care for the tone of the responses I've seen from this forum, so I'm not going to make any further comment that could get into any more guessing than that.
turbojet
7th January 2009, 01:06
If you upload your untouched index.bdmv, MovieObject.bdmv, mpls (menu), clpi (menu), m2ts (menu), I'll try some tweaking and testing on the BD35. If I can get something to work, you can try on the BD30.
Here's the menu files (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=J6V1G97U)
Thanks a lot for looking into it. Seems like the BD35's are some of the most pickiest players, perhaps if it can work on those it will on most others too.
turbojet
7th January 2009, 01:09
Commercial Blu-rays don't use BDMV.
Not sure what you mean by this. But every one I've seen has a BDMV directory and bdmv files. Can you explain further?
The popup menus from Encore seem to work fine in going to AVCHD, so I'd probably scratch that idea.
The reason why I thought this might be the case is a movie without a top menu played fine in movie only mode. But didn't play in a full backup. The only differences were 2 title clips and a popup menu.
alluringreality
7th January 2009, 01:26
Can you explain further?
I think the basics of Blu-ray authoring are covered well-enough in http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=14122 There's probably more details in http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=11392
~bT~
7th January 2009, 02:11
Commercial Blu-rays don't use BDMV.
are you sure? coz i'd double check your responses to ppl..
alluringreality
7th January 2009, 03:00
are you sure? coz i'd double check your responses to ppl..
See page 7 from http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Assets/Downloadablefile/2b_bdrom_audiovisualapplication_0305-12955-15269.pdf
EDIT: My mistake, apparently some things have been better documented since over a year ago.
~bT~
7th January 2009, 03:06
^ have u read it?
alluringreality
7th January 2009, 03:10
Secondhand from everything that talks about Blu-ray authoring. My original point was mainly that he listed AVCHD-Patcher which is generally discussed in relation to BDMV. I've still never ran across anything that might indicate that program would be relevant for a BD-J commercial title.
MadMonkey57
8th January 2009, 00:03
Here's the menu files (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=J6V1G97U)
Thanks a lot for looking into it. Seems like the BD35's are some of the most pickiest players, perhaps if it can work on those it will on most others too.
Maybe I can fake some of the m2ts files in order to create a decent BD structure to feed the BD35 with, but I need 00022.m2ts and 00003.m2ts, they seem to be part of the menu. How big are they ? Upload is possible ?
MadMonkey57
8th January 2009, 00:53
Here's the menu files (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=J6V1G97U)...
Start with an untouched BD-RB backup of the movie. Replace index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv in BDMV and BDMV/BACKUP with these (http://www.sendspace.com/file/7luyfa). And remove the empty JAR dir from BACKUP.
turbojet
8th January 2009, 02:50
Maybe I can fake some of the m2ts files in order to create a decent BD structure to feed the BD35 with, but I need 00022.m2ts and 00003.m2ts, they seem to be part of the menu. How big are they ? Upload is possible ?
here (http://www.sendspace.com/file/64ck4h)
Start with an untouched BD-RB backup of the movie. Replace index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv in BDMV and BDMV/BACKUP with these. And remove the empty JAR dir from BACKUP.
Have you done anything else besides use avchd patcher and hexedit 100 instead of 200? That's already been tried went from incompatible disc to playing the logo and crashing at the menu. Also where did you find AVCHD-Patcher 1.05?
alluringreality
8th January 2009, 04:13
where did you find AVCHD-Patcher 1.05?
http://cid-8ea621696fd320b1.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/%E5%B7%A5%E5%85%B7%E7%A8%8B%E5%BC%8F/AVCHD-Patcher seems to be the expected download location from the author.
turbojet
8th January 2009, 05:25
thanks, I kept on ending up here (http://wirepole.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!8EA621696FD320B1!664.entry) which has links for all versions but 1.05
MadMonkey57
8th January 2009, 08:00
...Have you done anything else besides use avchd patcher and hexedit 100 instead of 200?...
AVCHD Patcher 1.05 refuses to patch the original index.bdmv. So I took a typical index.bdmv output from Adobe Encore CS4, recreated the whole BD logical organization with BDEdit, patched with AVCHD Patcher 1.05, hexedited to 0x100 (both files). That's a start, I have other ideas... Make sure to keep an untouched BD-RB structure. Still, how does the BD30 behave with these 2 files (and the empty BACKUP/JAR dir removed) ?
turbojet
8th January 2009, 22:23
It played the title logo and then stopped when it got to the menu.
MadMonkey57
8th January 2009, 23:34
It played the title logo and then stopped when it got to the menu.
The overall BD structure is fine. index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv are playable the way they are. The menu itself is causing the trouble... I'm downloading the m2ts files you uploaded. I'll get back to you...
alluringreality
10th January 2009, 04:58
It looks like some of the online information has been cleared up a bit since the last time I tried really reading up on things. Apparently what I was calling BDMV must be generally termed HDMV. In http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11397#iif it says "BD-ROM AV has been incorrectly called BD-MV or BDMV", and apparently the author still used the term himself back in June (http://www.eventdv.net/Articles/Column/Op-Ed/Op-Ed-Blu-ray-Disc-Licensing-for-Videographers,-Small-Publishers,-and-Duplicators-49328.htm). So ~bT~ is most likely correct that what I was calling BDMV does appear to be used for Blu-ray authoring.
Generally my first thought was that many current titles are BD-J, and the issue with AVCHD-Patcher. The prior linked authoring article mentions limited-function HDMV for the sort of software I've used with AVCHD-Patcher, so I suppose maybe there could be an authoring item that is causing issues that I haven't ran into. Many players don't play Blu-ray on DVD, and no one seems to have any better idea on this than back in 2007, so that's the likely issue with why BD-RB output on DVD doesn't play. Reauthoring the disk as AVCHD like MadMonkey57 is talking makes sense because the player will play AVCHD on DVD, but my understanding of how to change things with BDedit is limited to just the very simple stuff.
turbojet
10th January 2009, 05:04
Speaking of avchd-patcher is there anyone that knows how to get a hold of wirepole?
I'm interested in asking for cli support.
MadMonkey57
10th January 2009, 09:57
... but I need 00022.m2ts and 00003.m2ts, they seem to be part of the menu.... ?
Sorry turbojet, I had 00003.m2ts already :o, 00002.m2ts is needed...
MadMonkey57
10th January 2009, 13:47
......but my understanding of how to change things with BDedit is limited to just the very simple stuff.
A few days ago, G_M_C requested (and I don't remember having seen a report from him ;)) a step by step guide on how to use BDEdit for creating from scratch a simple index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1229423#post1229423). Might give a few tips...
alluringreality
10th January 2009, 21:05
I think any information in that sort of a walk-through format is good stuff. The sort of items I haven't spent enough time to figure out are things like GSRs and all the sort of stuff that shows up in a TotalMedia or Encore output.
turbojet
11th January 2009, 10:17
dead link removed
MadMonkey57
15th January 2009, 00:23
@turbojet
As you probably have seen here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1237308#post1237308), I think I know why some menus work and some others don't.
In your case, the HDMV menu is made of 00002.m2ts and 00003.m2ts. But the IG stream is not embedded in those files but it is in a separated M2TS file (000022.m2ts). The logical link between the HDMV movie and the separated M2TS file is the so-called "subpath mechanism". Subpath don't seem to work on AVCHD/BD... So far, no solution... Sorry.
turbojet
15th January 2009, 00:26
I really appreciate the effort, I think we can crack this eventually. If anyone needs anymore samples feel free to ask and I'll see what I can do.
turbojet
25th February 2009, 13:43
Here's another HDMV menu (http://www.sendspace.com/file/w42s68)
edit: maybe this is BD-J with the BDJO but BDedit reports everything as HDMV
deank
25th February 2009, 14:00
I just managed to convert a bluray folder structure with pop-up menu to an AVCHD-like one and it plays fine in PS3 and pop-up menu and chapter pages show fine. I changed only index.bmdv and clpi/mpls files.
I'm looking at the sample you uploaded.
And about the subpath and slideshow features - MadMonkey57's post (#25) (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1237404#post1237404) - there was no problem playing the SLIDESHOW and POPUP menu in AVCHD, despite they use the subpath mechanism. Of course - all tests are with PS3 (via ext. HDD, not burnt to media).
turbojet
25th February 2009, 14:05
Oh wow that's quite surprising, also from earlier in this thread if you need it: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=J6V1G97U and if you need BD-J menus I have a few of them still sitting on my hard drive.
edit: by following some threads in the BD-RB section it actually looks like PS3 is one of the more pickier players when it comes to playing bluray menus/extras it likes to show up as a data disk. So that might not be a bad player to be able to test on and might reflect most if not the rest of the players.
deank
27th February 2009, 13:08
Can you try one small tool I wrote few minutes ago. Try it with one of your backups.
Here is the original post in another thread: (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1255335&postcount=47)
****
I can post a small tool I wrote for those willing to test with their BD players and/or Playstation3. It will make a full movie backup to play as expected - with no glitches either from DVD5/9 or USB hdd. I believe jdobbs will include it in some of next BDRB versions.
Here it is.
http://multiavchd.deanbg.com/gobd.jpg
(http://multiavchd.deanbg.com/gobd-tool.exe)
Self-extractable .7zip. Contains: goBD.exe and calclib.dll. If you're going to test on PS3 with USB hdd you need to apply AVCHDme or some other tool that will make filenames 8.3. For DVD - just burn it and see for yourself.
It will touch only your index.bdmv file.
****
I tried with untouched BlurayDisc movie source. Just cut a bit from the main movie so I can fit it in DVD and it works just as a BD disk. All menus, popups, extras work as expected.
deank
27th February 2009, 14:13
@turbojet: Here is a nice one... your JAVA menus from the archive I downloaded show this when burnt on DVD after goBD:
http://multiavchd.deanbg.com/DSC00062x.JPG
http://multiavchd.deanbg.com/DSC00064x.JPG
http://multiavchd.deanbg.com/DSC00066x.JPG
And the menu works... The only thing that gives error is "Warner Bros BD-Live site"... but I guess it was expected :)
turbojet
27th February 2009, 14:22
Thanks a lot, I will try it asap.
turbojet
1st March 2009, 13:38
deank would you be able to try it with a BD Rebuilder output?
I wouldn't think so but maybe it's doing something that's bringing these unsuccessful reports.
deank
1st March 2009, 15:09
I don't really have many bd titles to run thru BDRB. And I don't think it is related to its output. I updated goBD so if someone is willing to test it will be good. I added PAL/NTSC option and a checkbox if header info INDX0200 should be changed to 0100 so one can experiment.
turbojet
1st March 2009, 15:20
OK thanks I will give it a try again.
hamletiii
26th July 2009, 01:59
I don't really have many bd titles to run thru BDRB. And I don't think it is related to its output. I updated goBD so if someone is willing to test it will be good. I added PAL/NTSC option and a checkbox if header info INDX0200 should be changed to 0100 so one can experiment.
This tool doesn't seem to work for the disc I'm trying. I tried both goBD and avchd patcher, neither one will show pop-up menu in PS3, shows fine in powerDVD and Totalmedia though.
Edit: OK, I found the problem, you have press the square key instead of the pop-up menu on the BT remote. Also, if you use triangle key to call the buttons, the pop-up menu button is greyed out. So the square key is the only way to access pop-up menu on PS3.
deank
26th July 2009, 22:51
Cool :)
So it worked in the end?
hamletiii
2nd August 2009, 06:20
Cool :)
So it worked in the end?
Yes, both software worked. But the patched index.bdmv size comes out differently, yours output a larger size. Avchd patcher patches MovieObject.bdmv also.
DiKey
22nd January 2010, 01:47
deank, is goBD do the same as AVCHD-patcher? Are there any differences between them (now I am using Avchd-Patcher, but I do not know the author of it, and I cannot ask questions for him)?
And, please, say me:
1. If I do BluRay folder, using Encore DVD Cs3(4) (with subtitles, 2 audiotracks, menus), to apply goBD patch, must I set indx0100 checkbox?
2. Can I write this folder to BD5 without renaming any files? (Whether it will be correct AVCHD disk for hardware AVCHD players such as PS3&others?)
Thank you!
deank
22nd January 2010, 02:03
1) Yes (basically both tools do similar things)
2) Yes, filenames must be in long format .bdmv .mpls .clpi when burning discs
DiKey
22nd January 2010, 13:12
Thank you.
And what about 0100 checkbox? As I understand, basically you say, that 0100 is good. Or 0200 is not worse?
deank
22nd January 2010, 13:54
I'm using 0100 in all of my programs as it is both Blu-ray and AVCHD compliant.
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