BD Rebuilder + PS3 full disc support – progress

[rendez2k]

I've been doing a lot of research into full disc backups and the PS3 not seeing them as a data disc. I *think* I've had a break though tonight following this guide:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15285018#post15285018

I first tested the guide with the 6th Day - for some reason the disc was seen as an AVCHD, but I got a PS3 video error when I tried to play.

So, I tested again today with Eraser. After encoding, I burnt the disc which was of course seen as a data disc. Then, I followed the guide, re-burnt and it worked (burnt with ImgBurn, by hand not automatically with BD Rebuilder due to the need to patch)

So, a few things spring to mind:

1. Latest attempt was with a newer version of BD Rebuilder
2. I used a different type of disc, DVD+RW rather than DVD-R/DVD-RW but I don't think this would make a difference?
3. Eraser has a very simple menu and disc structure. 6th Day has a loading bar, menu audio, extras etc. Could be too complicated to patch?
4. I just messed up the first time!

So, I guess we all need to test further. I'm going to run a different disc tonight and if any other PS3 owners get a chance, please have ago too an report back!

[jdobbs]

Interesting. Does anyone have any idea what AVCHD-Patcher does before the manual edits are made (in the link)? I'd like to automate this within BD-RB and see if it makes a difference...

[rendez2k]

Interesting. Does anyone have any idea what AVCHD-Patcher does? I'd like to automate this within BD-RB and see if it makes a difference...

I could send you the before and after index.bdmv if it helps?

[jdobbs]

Please do: dvd-rb@dvd-rb.com

[rendez2k]

Please do: dvd-rb@dvd-rb.com

Done!

PS. I'll be running another test in a about 2hrs if you need me to test anything further!

[Vanderlow]

I've been doing a lot of research into full disc backups and the PS3 not seeing them as a data disc. I *think* I've had a break though tonight following this guide:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15285018#post15285018

I first tested the guide with the 6th Day - for some reason the disc was seen as an AVCHD, but I got a PS3 video error when I tried to play.

So, I tested again today with Eraser. After encoding, I burnt the disc which was of course seen as a data disc. Then, I followed the guide, re-burnt and it worked (burnt with ImgBurn, by hand not automatically with BD Rebuilder due to the need to patch)

So, a few things spring to mind:

2. I used a different type of disc, DVD+RW rather than DVD-R/DVD-RW but I don't think this would make a difference?
!


just a thought, but best to get any variables out of the way, but with DVD + media you can set the booktype to DVD-ROM and some burning software defaults to DVD-ROM and some don't. You can use a program like CD-Speed to read the booktype. Maybe you should check out that variable .... it may not be the cause but DVD-ROM is suppose to mean "store bought" DVD ....

[turbojet]

I tried the AVCHD-Patcher and hexedit bdmv's on a Panasonic BD30 with a full backup BD5 on a DVD-R it went from an 'incompatible disc' error to playing the title logo then quits when it gets to the top menu. So definitely progress, I will be trying a BD5 without a top menu in the same player soon.

[rendez2k]

I tried the AVCHD-Patcher and hexedit bdmv's on a Panasonic BD30 with a full backup BD5 on a DVD-R it went from an 'incompatible disc' error to playing the title logo then quits when it gets to the top menu. So definitely progress, I will be trying a BD5 without a top menu in the same player soon.

Did you see this bit?

NOTES:
A) Typical consumer software for creating BDMV appears to work fine, but Scenarist is known to default to setting a copy protection indicator (cpi) bit in the BDMV video. PS3bdfix101 can correct the video in the STREAMS directory if the BDMV was created by Scenarist with cpi on. For most programs that create BDMV you will never have to worry about cpi.

This was my next avenue of investigation if all else failed...

[turbojet]

ya I saw that, even downloaded PS3bdfix101 but never did ran it after reading its supposedly for scenarist BD's only. I will try it when I go back over there, it's not a player I own.

I wonder if MultiAVCHD results can help debug the menu issues reported or maybe even 2 like minds coming together...

[rendez2k]

I think it was more to do with copy protection, which is why I thought it could be a possible issue? Also, just tested a DVD-RW and all worked fine still.

[turbojet]

I tried it on all files of the BD, too bad the program doesn't support wildcards, but they all reported 0 modified and 0 errors. I compared crc of original vs. new and they were all the same. So I'm pretty sure that won't have any effect in this case.

[jdobbs]

Did you keep the CERTIFICATE folder in your backups? I keep it in all of mine and haven't had an issue.

[[SLiM]D12]

I'm having this same problem. My title will load up, play all warnings, trailers and intros, and once it gets thru to the menu, it craps out in my PS3.

[rendez2k]

Did you keep the CERTIFICATE folder in your backups? I keep it in all of mine and haven't had an issue.

I burn everything in the folder BD Rebuilder creates. I assume it automatically copies that folder across?



I'm having this same problem. My title will load up, play all warnings, trailers and intros, and once it gets thru to the menu, it craps out in my PS3.

I'm wondering if theres some issue with re-encoding the menus? On the 6th Day back-up I burnt to BD-RE, the menu played for about 30 seconds without sound then locked up the PS3. I literally had to turn it off and on again at the power socket which I've never had to do before. It was fine if I selected something within the first 30 seconds.... I see a few people with different players have reported menu issues.

[jdobbs]

I burn everything in the folder BD Rebuilder creates. I assume it automatically copies that folder across? It copies everything that is there... the question is: was it there from the ANYDVD copy?

[jdobbs]

I'm wondering if theres some issue with re-encoding the menus? On the 6th Day back-up I burnt to BD-RE, the menu played for about 30 seconds without sound then locked up the PS3. I literally had to turn it off and on again at the power socket which I've never had to do before. It was fine if I selected something within the first 30 seconds.... I see a few people with different players have reported menu issues.The menus can be a loop between two M2TS files. It sounds like it may be that the second of the two is somehow not being called properly.

[[SLiM]D12]

jdobbs: have you ever tested a rip you've completed in a ps3? I'm trying a movie-only rip right now and will mess with it some more again.

[rendez2k]

OK, did another full disc last night, and after performing the patch steps, the intro video plays, then I get the video playback error message. This disc has a more complicated menu structure and where it appears to fail is when the loading bar/progress animation begins to play before the menu. As we are essentially taking a BR disc and patching it to be a AVCHD disc, I'm now wondering if its a video specification error and I just got lucky that the first disc and it conformed correctly to these specs. Apparently:

AVCHD:
-Video codec: AVC
-Audio codec: Dolby Digital, PCM 1.5 Mbps
-More than one audio track: No
-Subtitles: No
-Maximum video bitrate: 25000 kbps
-Maximum VBR buffer size: 9000 kbps

While Blu-ray's (and therefore BD-5's/BD-9's) are:
-Video codec: AVC, VC-1, MPEG-2
-More than one audio track: Yes
-Subtitles: Yes
-Audio codec: Dolby Digital, DTS 1,5 Mbps, PCM 27 Mbps, Dolby Digital + 1,7Mbps, DTS-HD 6 Mbps, TrueHD 18 Mbps, DTS-HD MA 24,5 Mbps
-Maximum video bitrate: 40000 kbps
-Maximum VBR buffer size: 30000 kbps

Maybe jdobbs can shed some more light onto these specs? I'm getting a bit out of my depth trying to understand it all!

[jdobbs]

I'll be honest... while I would love to see this work on a PS3 -- my intent is to backup BD discs, not to somehow turn them into AVCHD. But -- since a PS3 will playback a BD-25, I would hope that there is some way to playback a BD-5/9 as well.

[rendez2k]

Just had this back from another forum I posted the same questions on. Sounds like Java may be the issue so looks like a dead end for BD5/9 on the PS3?

I've never used BD-Rebuilder so I have no idea what it does. By the time given for the program to work, it must be recoding the video. Anyway, if the program keeps the menu structure from the original Blu-ray then it's very possible you might not be able to play a DVD disk from the PS3. The PS3 has only been confirmed to play the AVCHD file structure from DVD. I've read that AVCHD does not support Java that many professional Blu-ray menus are authored with.

Aside from clearly false reports, I have never read anything that would indicate it's actually possible to create a BD-5/9 at home. All reports I've read talking about BD-5/9 have really been talking about AVCHD file structure, and like mentioned AVCHD probably doesn't support BD-J. So like I said before, the only foolproof thing I can think for the video to playback on the PS3 from DVD is to re-author the video from the STREAMS folder. I know that the BD-Rebuilder author was talking about using DVD media in his player, but not all Blu-rays are authored with BD-J and I've seen disks authored slightly differently that will not play the same on all Sony players.

[jdobbs]

Some inaccuracies:

"BD-J isn't supported on the PS3" -- if that were true, a BD-25 wouldn't work either. It may be they haven't implemented it for BD-5/9 -- but that's a different statement.

"All reports I've read talking about BD-5/9 have really been talking about AVCHD file structure..." -- maybe on the PS-3, but not on my standalone SONY standalone. The BD plays with all features including BD-JAVA.

"Aside from clearly false reports, I have never read anything that would indicate it's actually possible to create a BD-5/9 at home." -- I can give over 100 personal examples of where this is false.

"I know that the BD-Rebuilder author was talking about using DVD media in his player, but not all Blu-rays are authored with BD-J..." Most are, though... and I have yet to find a single one that I can't reauthor (including BD-J) - except where the protection isn't supported by ANYDVD yet.

Bottom line: it works -- but now it needs to work better. Maybe there are systems that are limited... I don't know -- and I don't pretend to know the intricacies of every player on the planet.

I realize there are a lot of "experts" in this world -- but the fact that it works on the SONY BDP-S301 I have (JAVA and all) is a good indicator that it is possible, don't you think? I'll let the other guys debate whether it is possible while I'm watching my BD-5 and BD-9 backups on my standalone and 52" LCD display in high definition.

[[SLiM]D12]

so wait, if we re-encode these things to BD-25 they play back in the PS3 just fine? I haven't tried that (don't have a BD-RE disc yet) and if it does, that does make things confusing...

[jdobbs]

I don't own a PS3 so I can't confirm anything -- but that's what I've heard. Does a commercial disc play? If so then BD-J has to be supported.

[rendez2k]

D12;1229895']so wait, if we re-encode these things to BD-25 they play back in the PS3 just fine? I haven't tried that (don't have a BD-RE disc yet) and if it does, that does make things confusing...

The exact same encodes that don't work on BD5/9 work fine if burnt to BR-RE.

And thanks for the reply jdobbs, I'm sure we'll get this sorted some how!

[LowDead]

I can also confirm BD-25 works flawlessly in PS3. I had some problems at first but after I had done a clean encode without any interuptions from faulty decoders it worked without a hitch.

Have yet only tested with one movie though.

/LD

[k-c-ksum]

sounds like a book type issue, the ps3 must be reading it and detecting dvd media and crapping out. What book type is set on bd-r? Wonder if its possible to emulate this and set it on dvd+r media in the same way you can set it dvd-rom

[jdobbs]

Hmmm.. the booktype can be changed with IMGBURN.

[[SLiM]D12]

Tell me how and i'll try it. I googled it, and found how to set book-type per cd-rom manufacturer, not sure if that's what we're referring to, but it didn't make sense.

[jdobbs]

Probably the best you could do is get it to show as DVD-ROM rather than DVD-R/RW or DVD+R/RW. You set the mode to "Write" and then click on the little "book" icon on the lower right of the dialog. You then select the drive type, disc type, and booktype you wish to use.

Make sure you write down the original settings in case you need to go back (if it causes problems).

I couldn't find a book type for a BD-RE disc.

[[SLiM]D12]

i had already changed it and didn't mark down what it was before, hopefully if i have issues i can re-install imgburn. Gonna try it in a few mins using that book type to see what happens. Will post results afterwards.

[[SLiM]D12]

didn't work, still detected it as a Data Disc :/

[Furiousflea]

Book type will almost certainly have no effect...That would have been way too easy :confused:

[k-c-ksum]

we cant set dvdr media book type to br yet. If a bd25 plays fine then a bd5/9 should if its recognized as bd media, well that my way of thinking anyway.

[alluringreality]

Some inaccuracies:

"BD-J isn't supported on the PS3"

This was never stated. My statement was basically that I've read AVCHD does not officially support BD-J. MozartMan then said he had found that to be supported by testing on the PS3.


I can give over 100 personal examples of where this is false.

Please give just one example of a player that will play a home-authored "BD-5" or "BD-9" disk that will not also play AVCHD. Many people on this forum seem to state that tsMuxer or TsRemux create a BD-9 disk. From the discussion on this forum I've read though my impression is that TsRemux simply took the AVCHD file structure from Nero, and then tsMuxer also took that output. My statement was just that people seem to be incorrectly using the BD-9 term (http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11397#iii) when they are actually talking about basically AVCHD structure files.

I have never found a player that will play a tsMuxer output on DVD while not also being able to play AVCHD. On the other hand I've ran into a number of players that will not play tsMuxer on DVD or AVCHD. If a tsMuxer output was really BD-9 it would generally be expected to play on most any player regardless if the player plays AVCHD, and in testing that does not seem to be the case.


I'll let the other guys debate whether it is possible while I'm watching my BD-5 and BD-9 backups on my standalone and 52" LCD display in high definition.

Just because you can use DVD media with BD-J on your player doesn't mean that it necessarily has any relevance for anyone with another player. My BDP-S1 plays BDMV from DVD media, but most other players - including many AVCHD compatible models like the PS3 - don't play BDMV from DVD. It would be pointless for me to just assume that everyone else should be able to play BDMV on DVD just because my player does. Likewise it makes little sense to imply that it's possible for all Blu-ray player to playback BD-J from DVD just because your player might.

Along the same lines, just because AVCHD file structure can be modified to allow for Mpeg2 video playback, that doesn't mean that it's a true BD-9 disk as Blu-ray defines things. Because the disk is using AVCHD file structure, then it would seem to me that whether or not a player plays the disk will have to do with whether or not the player is AVCHD compatible - this seems to hold up in testing. If the disk was truly BD-9 then every Blu-ray player would be expected to play it, but in testing tsMuxer Blu-ray output on DVD only seems to play on players that will play AVCHD. This is also completely in line with a basic comparison of Nero's AVCHD index.bdmv against tsMuxer and AVCHD-Patcher outputs. Again just because your player will play a modified AVCHD file structure, that doesn't mean that the disk is actually a true BD-9 disk (which would be expected to play on all players).

[jdobbs]

You are obviously in "debate mode" while I am in "do mode". So lets end it.

The only reason I even answered this thread the first time was because you stated:

Aside from clearly false reports, I have never read anything that would indicate it's actually possible to create a BD-5/9 at home.

I have proven that to be completely false (at least on my SONY BDP-S301 player). Whether the player supports AVCHD is irrelevant and an attempt at obfuscation. AVCHD doesn't support BD-J, it doesn't allow multiple audio tracks, and will only work with AVC -- while the backups I've tested work with all these. So it is clear that, at least in my case, it is possible, right?

I never made a statement that all players would work -- only that it is worth trying to find something that will work.

Because the disk is using AVCHD file structure, then it would seem to me that whether or not a player plays the disk will have to do with whether or not the player is AVCHD compatible - this seems to hold up in testing. Obviously you are debating without taking the time to even look at one of the examples. If you did you would find the file structure to be exactly the same as the original BD disc. How does it magically become "AVCHD" when it is written to a new disc?

Eventually the price of BD-R discs will drop below $1 and this argument becomes academic (they're already down to about $6 at Meritline). That's the real long-term goal for BD-RB anyway.

I just want to stop talking about what we "can't do", as there are lots and lots of people out there who are happy to discuss that without me. Instead I think it is more important to start working on what we "can do". I'm done with this discussion -- it is serving no purpose.

[alluringreality]

I have proven that to be completely false (at least on my SONY BDP-S301 player).

Where have you at all proved my statements to be incorrect? I am simply stating what testing clearly shows. You just keep stating how your player works and have not attempted to address the point of my comments about testing different Blu-ray players using DVD media. It seems to me that you make statements like this because you are not very well informed on how other players operate by actually testing them. You just keep saying how your player works regardless of how other players work.


Whether the player supports AVCHD is irrelevant and an attempt at obfuscation.

Whether a player supports AVCHD is very relevant to the point of my comments in regards to BD-9. Blu-ray players are not required to playback AVCHD, and many players do not playback AVCHD. On the other hand, all Blu-ray players are required to play true BD-9 material. My statement is that what this forum generally seems to be calling BD-9 appears to really be AVCHD-based in most cases (not specifically in what you are doing), because for example disks created with tsMuxer using its Blu-ray settings only appear to play on AVCHD compatible players. I would certainly like to be able to create a true BD-9, but I have never yet seen anything that indicates it's possible to create that format at home. Testing seems to indicate that disks created using tsMuxer are acutally AVCHD based, rather than BD-9 based as many people seem to state.


the backups I've tested work with all these. So it is clear that, at least in my case, it is possible, right?

Again, what does it really matter what your one model player plays? There are many other players besides your one Sony model. If what you are calling BD-9 was really BD-9 it would play on players that do not support AVCHD, and it would play on the PS3. Your player supports AVCHD, so again you have not addressed the point of many of my comments about BD-9 and AVCHD. I figure at this time the PS3 easily represents the majority of Blu-ray players sold, so for those owners what does it really matter what your player will play? I could go on and on about how it's possible to play BDMV from DVD just because my player does, but the clear fact of the matter is that a majority of Blu-ray players do not play BDMV from DVD (the PS3 doesn't). It also seems clear enough based on reports that the PS3 will not play BD-J from DVD, regardless if your player does.


I never made a statement that all players would work -- only that it is worth trying to find something that will work.

Yes, and after messing with this stuff for long enough the one constant is that you can't simply test one player with DVD media and assume that's how all players work.


Obviously you are debating without taking the time to even look at one of the examples.

I think it's clear enough that this comment could easily be directed at yourself. Like I asked before, please name one player that is not AVCHD compatible that will play a tsMuxer output on DVD. There are a number of players or different firmware versions that are not AVCHD compatible, but a tsMuxer output on DVD only seems to play on AVCHD compatible players in testing. The reason I keep bringing up tsMuxer is that this forum seems to think the "Blu-ray" output from tsMuxer is BD-9. In testing a tsMuxer output on DVD generally appears to either play or not play depending on the player's AVCHD compatibility. This is relevant to the general discussion of BD-9, because if the disks were true BD-9 then AVCHD compatibility wouldn't matter and BD-J would play regardless of the player.


If you did you would find the file structure to be exactly the same as the original BD disc. How does it magically become "AVCHD" when it is written to a new disc?

I never intentionally stated that what you are doing here is creating an AVCHD. What you are doing with BD Rebuilder is simply putting a format on DVD media that is not intended to be written to DVD media. It is similar to my example of how my player will play BDMV from DVD media. Just because my player plays BDMV from DVD, very few other players do. The same way, just because your player plays files from DVD media that are not intended to be played from DVD, that doesn't mean that other players will. Your player is just one model of many, so it's somewhat pointless to keep discussing what your player happens to play. The PS3 is by far the highest selling player, and from reports it seems very likely that it does not happen to play what your player plays from DVD media.


I just want to stop talking about what we "can't do", as there are lots and lots of people out there who are happy to discuss that without me. Instead I think it is more important to start working on what we "can do".

Do you not realize that many people are not yet ready to buy a BD burner at this time? The point of my comments has simply been to address problems with trying to use DVD media on many Blu-ray players. I simply think people here are incorrectly using the term BD-9 when no one has at all given a way that it's possible to actually create true BD-9 at home. I certainly would like to be able to create a true BD-9 at home, because of the low cost and wide compatibility, but instead all the BD-9 related discussion seems to concern software such as tsMuxer. Like I've commented, tsMuxer seems to really be about creating disks that are based around AVCHD file structure, rather than creating true BD-9 disks. I'm glad you're happy you have proven to yourself that if someone goes and buys another Blu-ray player that then maybe it could work like your player does - because you only like to talk about what we "can do". Maybe it is somehow possible to turn DVD media into something that a majority of players will recognize as BD-9 (rather than AVCHD like with tsMuxer), but to this point I'm not aware of any solution to create true BD-9 at home with all the advantages it offers such as widespread compatibility and BD-J playback.

[jdobbs]

I don't have time for this silly trolling horse crap... don't go away mad. Just go away.

Thread closed.