Easy to use HDTV cut software?

[LonelyPixel]

Hi,

I've recently discovered that I can receive an HDTV station with my DVB-S card and DVBViewer. Watching the HD video it looks much better than old SDTV. Recording is easy, I get the same .ts files only at the double size. The format is 720p.

Now comes the hard part: Post-processing like cutting and converting. While there exist several tools to demux, cut and convert MPEG-2-TS files, I couldn't find any for H.264-TS. At least none that doesn't seem to require deep knowledge of the matter - which I assume would suffice to create my own software for it. Avidemux looks promising but cannot handle my recordings. ProjectX fails at them, too.

So my question is: Is there some easy software like Avidemux or VideoReDo for HDTV or should I just watch and forget and never record anything HD from TV for another 5 years? I really am better off not spending months into trying and failing with processing of HDTV recordings. I hope you guys know if there's a solution or not. The doom9.org website guides seem to be unmaintained for years, with DVB being brand-new and HD not even used yet...

PS: If a piece of software costs money, I really expect easy usage and frame-accurate cutting, which I haven't seen yet.

[setarip_old]

Hi!

The following is just one of several possible solutions referred to in this sub-forum:

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1223741&postcount=7

[LonelyPixel]

Thank you. I've found that and it doesn't look easy to use at all. And it's quite expensive for that. Also the website says it doesn't support frame-accurate cutting. [--]

Anyway, I've tried it out now. Doesn't work. It cannot open my video file. At least the log says so. From then on I have no idea what to do in the window. Saving the video or the Play button have absolutely no measurable effect. [--]

Doesn't meet my average user requirements.

[Atak_Snajpera]

Install haali Media Splitter and latest FFDShow and try again. I have not had any problems with new TSPE. In my opinion it's very to use.

[LonelyPixel]

Alright, this time I eventually managed to cut a TS file. But now I've still got a TS file. And it doesn't play fluidly, it often stops for a short while, at high CPU usage. Seems the HD TS file requires much more power than HD video playback or live HD TV. (On my Core 2 Duo 2.4 GHz) How can I convert the TS file into something else like MKV? Avidemux still refuses to convert the new TS file.

[mvBarracuda]

Did you try mkvmerge? It worked for me AFAIR.

[LonelyPixel]

Never heard of it before.

It doesn't read .ts files.

Btw, is there a website somewhere that lists all known applications with their input formats, output formats, processing features etc. for video files? Maybe with a filter selection on those features? It's more than confusing to use a chain of 3+ different programmes for converting the same MPEG-2 data from DVB or DVD to cut it and convert it into some other format. HD video needs entirely different tools of course. Some only accept elementary streams, some only program streams. Some do error correction, most not. Very few support smart copy (frame-accurate cutting but only re-encoding the necessary parts) and most fail to advertise it. Another output format can change the entire tool chain from the first part on. In the last years, I've used at least 12 different programmes - only for video cutting and converting; information tools, codecs, players and audio editing not included. If someone not-so-into-computers asks me how video processing works, I always tell them "it's too complicated, you won't understand it".

[midnightsun]

Once you have cut the TS (which you say you did successfully), use dgavcindex (look for it) to demux the streams, load them up in mkvmergegui and let it create a MKV for you. Now you have a fully working MKV which should be playable in media player classic.

BTW if the file takes too much out of your CPU to decode, it may not play fluidly whether as a TS, a MKV or a MP4. You just have to check that yourself.

[Jay Bee]

Videoredo with AVC support has been announced within the next few weeks. Yay.

[midnightsun]

about time!

at the moment it's too much of a hassle to quasi-losslessly (i.e. reencode only at the cut points if needed) trim files frame-accurately.
I've been doing it the manual way with dgavcindex,avisynth,megui,tssplitter,tsmuxer but it takes an awful amount of time.

[TheResidentEvil]

I cannot wait. I use videoredo religiously

[halsboss]

So do I - VideoReDo is fantastic and well worth the few $ it cost (I'm not associated with it, only as a very happy user). Good active support forum, too.

[guodongzhe]

This is NOT free, but it can edit m2ts frame accurately, it may help. I tried it on m2ts files, it works. you may need rename file extension from .trp to .m2ts

[link removed for GPL violation]

[Ventolin]

This is NOT free, but it can edit m2ts frame accurately, it may help. I tried it on m2ts files, it works. you may need rename file extension from .trp to .m2ts

[link removed for GPL violations]

Hi,

I just tried this and unfortunately it did was not able to edit my h264 ts file successfully. Instead it decided to re-encode my 1440x1080i h264 video to MPEG2 @ 720x576, my AC3 to MPEG1 Layer2 Audio and used a bitrate of 4 Mbit/s.

I even tried to set the parameters to match the source, but the settings were ignored.

I also noticed the authors claim the software is Open Source, yet I did not find any sources in the package or any place to download the source files.

I did find MPlayer binaries in the codecs folder however, but was unable to find any mention of any GPL licences either.

Frame Accurate in the context of a video editor in my view should imply a "Smart" editor where only the frames that need to be re-encoded are, the rest is left untouched.

As far as I know, there are only GOP level H264 editors out there and only 1 Sub-GOP editor (not mentioning any names!)

Sincerest Apologies if my findings are incorrect in any way.

Regards,

Vent

[guodongzhe]

Ya！It is NOT free, so I am not surprised that it is close sourced. I just downloaded its trial version and had a test.
FRAME ACCURATE only means accurate on the start and end point, I do not think leaving middle part untouched is a necessary demand. Ya, perhaps that is okay in technology. But, have you ever think about that, if the first and last GOP on cut points were chopped and re-encoded, then the visual quality will be lowered down than the middle part. Same thing happens to the bitrate, I mean the result may have a bitrate on start and end other than its middle part. As I have been working for some video stream TRANSPORT (satellite) program, that will be sometime a problem.
I now use this program to be a movie browser, like a ACDsee, but on videos. It is funny to scrub video in the FRAME PRO mode, like an animation. :)
Any way, have a good day.

[guodongzhe]

And what is "Sub-GOP"? You mean cutting out IDR in the stream, but leaving some (orphan) I frames as starting point of stream? But in the theory, that will be a illegal 264 structure.
Perhaps I am wrong?

[midnightsun]

I do not think leaving middle part untouched is a necessary demand.

You don't???
Of course it is!!!!
What do you think we're all talking about then?

If all it does is re-encode the video stream then we already have reliable tools to do that, so what's new about it that dgavcdecode, avisynth and x264 cannot do already?

[guodongzhe]

You don't???
Of course it is!!!!
What do you think we're all talking about then?

If all it does is re-encode the video stream then we already have reliable tools to do that, so what's new about it that dgavcdecode, avisynth and x264 cannot do already?

Nope. I mean leaving middle part untouched is necessary demand of RE-MUX or RIP, but it is NOT necessary demand for the definition of FRAME ACCURATE EDIT. Those are totally different two things. At least in the TV and satellite broadcasting industry it is so.
Thanks.

[LonelyPixel]

No re-encoding of unedited parts is necessary for me. I'm not one of those lucky owners of an 8-core machine, and I do think that the broadcast H.264 streams is already compressed well enough. There's absolutely no need to do it all again, losing a bit more quality. It would actually be dumb and inefficient. If the application can already open, cut and encode the video, I assume it should be smart enough to simply copy the parts it doesn't alter.

[guodongzhe]

No re-encoding of unedited parts is necessary for me. I'm not one of those lucky owners of an 8-core machine, and I do think that the broadcast H.264 streams is already compressed well enough. There's absolutely no need to do it all again, losing a bit more quality. It would actually be dumb and inefficient. If the application can already open, cut and encode the video, I assume it should be smart enough to simply copy the parts it doesn't alter.

Actually it is possible in technology. And several years ago, I did programmed such kind of application for MPEG2 stream. We re-encode first gop and last gop, and copy middle part directly. It worked, but not perfect in theory.

On the contrary, why so heavily depend on FRAME ACCURATE. If the FRAME ACCURATE demand is off, I mean just demux and re-mux from GOP boundary, that will be more easy, and applicable. That will be totally visual quality LOSSLESS. I'd prefer that. And it will be fast.

FRAME ACCURATE may cost too much.

As we often referred to, when we define a in(start) point, that frame will be most important in a program. But re-encoding will just lower its visual quality, leaving other part untouched. So we do not operate like this, we usually keep the whole GOP, but when we start playing, we start from the in point(not GOP boundary), this operation is called 'PREROLL'. That will solve this well.

[LonelyPixel]

Commercials and movies do not always start and end on GOP boundaries. That's why I'm looking for frame-level editing.

Actually, at the end you don't need to encode anything. Just leave out some frames after the cut. And can't you just take the first frame and apply all changes of the next frames and use that as your new first frame for the beginning of a new cut?

Anyway, we're only re-encoding the fraction of a second. That won't be much work (for the CPU) and the quality loss is almost invisible.

[guodongzhe]

Ya these are all okay in technology. But I do not have any practical program.

Like what we did to mpeg2, to avc/264, I can find IDR of the start point, start decoding from IDR, when we meet start point we re-encode frames into a new file, we keep doing so till we meet next IDR, called IDR2. Then we got a new prefix-264-file.

Second, I can demux original file from IDR2 into a new middle-part-file. Attention: this will also generate new audio stream file(s), call them middle-audio-file.

Third, I can link (prefix-264-file) and (middle-part-file + middle-audio-file) by a 264 re-mux operation.

I do have all these source code we need, but they are all coarse source code, needed to be combined together. That is not very difficult, but a time-consuming work.

And finally comes the real hard job: a/v sync. Since the prefix file has no audio boundled, select a start point of middle-audio will be important. This will lead to a/v out of sync if we do not take care of it.
The in-fluency you mentioned before, may comes from such kind of problem.

Sorry friend, I did not do any real help. I was busy on managing a project on web-video-stream, something relavant to 264/avc. May be after that, I can find some time, make a so-called 'smart' program. Not so many people need this high-demand thing, but it looks useful, and worth a try.

By the way, the middle-part-file may be held in the memory buffer, make the operation in-the-fly.

[LonelyPixel]

Sorry, too much techno-bubble. I didn't understand a word.

[Ventolin]

Hi,

TSPE actually can edit to Sub-GOP accuracy. It's not yet video frame accurate, but you can set end points at P frames. Start points need to be at I/IDR frames.

I know the UI is somewhat complicated, but you can remove some of the buttons. The workflow should still be pretty simple, there are some examples on the website.

The very basic workflow is to set the start point, set the end point, then hit edit. This will trim a file. 3 clicks and you are finished. I don't know how I can make that more simple!

If you need to edit out commercials, all you do is: Set start point, set end point, click Add, repeat for next segements, then hit edit. Again, 3 clicks per segment followed by 1 click for the edit. In some cases, TSPE will automatically find the start/end points for you. How much simpler do you want it?

One of TSPE's main objectives is to be able to open any type of transport stream and edit. It is not limited by any type or number of video streams or audio streams. It is also a transport stream analyser and can fix some types of errors in the stream.

Hope that helps,

Regards,

Vent

[rebkell]

Hi,

TSPE actually can edit to Sub-GOP accuracy. It's not yet video frame accurate, but you can set end points at P frames. Start points need to be at I/IDR frames.

I know the UI is somewhat complicated, but you can remove some of the buttons. The workflow should still be pretty simple, there are some examples on the website.

The very basic workflow is to set the start point, set the end point, then hit edit. This will trim a file. 3 clicks and you are finished. I don't know how I can make that more simple!

If you need to edit out commercials, all you do is: Set start point, set end point, click Add, repeat for next segements, then hit edit. Again, 3 clicks per segment followed by 1 click for the edit. In some cases, TSPE will automatically find the start/end points for you. How much simpler do you want it?

One of TSPE's main objectives is to be able to open any type of transport stream and edit. It is not limited by any type or number of video streams or audio streams. It is also a transport stream analyser and can fix some types of errors in the stream.

Hope that helps,

Regards,

Vent

I've been using it some lately, and I know this is nitpicky and based on a personal thing, but I didn't notice anyway to add with a keystroke, it would be friendlier if the Add button was closer to the navigation buttons instead of down at the bottom, it seems out of place, I don't know where you would put it, but down at the bottom while editing in the middle of the screen doesn't seem to fit in the flow.

Another thing I've run into, when you highlight a couple of your edits in the edit list that the highlight doesn't stay, it sort of grays out and it's hard to determine that they are highlighted, which is no biggie, but if you finish editing and adding the sections you want for the final file and then click edit, the highlighted ones are the only ones that get processed.

[Ventolin]

Hi,I've been using it some lately, and I know this is nitpicky and based on a personal thing, but I didn't notice anyway to add with a keystroke, it would be friendlier if the Add button was closer to the navigation buttons instead of down at the bottom, it seems out of place, I don't know where you would put it, but down at the bottom while editing in the middle of the screen doesn't seem to fit in the flow.
If you do Help -> Keyboard shortcuts you can see there is a group of keys: I O J K L - I/O sets the In/Out (Start/End) points, J/L moves +/- I frames, K plays/pauses. CTRL and Shift modify these keys so you can do CTRL+I to set and test the Start point. ALT+A adds the start/end points to the list, but is undocumented. Similarly, ALT+E makes an edit.

Another thing I've run into, when you highlight a couple of your edits in the edit list that the highlight doesn't stay, it sort of grays out and it's hard to determine that they are highlighted, which is no biggie, but if you finish editing and adding the sections you want for the final file and then click edit, the highlighted ones are the only ones that get processed.
If no items in the EDL are selected, all items are processed when you press Edit. Otherwise, only the selected items are included in the edit. Selecting 2 items and right clicking lets you test the edit point between the 2 items.

Hope that helps, apologies for straying off topic! (please do post in the TSPE thread for further discussion)

Regards,

Vent

[rebkell]

Sorry about the off topic post, I actually thought I was in that thread. :o

[LonelyPixel]

If you need to edit out commercials, all you do is: Set start point, set end point, click Add, repeat for next segements, then hit edit. Again, 3 clicks per segment followed by 1 click for the edit. In some cases, TSPE will automatically find the start/end points for you. How much simpler do you want it?

Cut mode. Select start and end of commercials and cut it out. Sometimes they repeat a bit of the movie after the commercials, and then I look out for a good place to cut within the movie so that fading to/from black or the movie name in big letters is also cut out. I need to find the same place before and after the commercials block. It's not easy if this is on two different cuts.

Anyway, what is a P/I/IDR frame? Does it occur more often than every 100 ms? And when cutting within the movie, I really need to find the very same frame, not something a few 100 ms off.

[Cela]

Ya these are all okay in technology. But I do not have any practical program.

Like what we did to mpeg2, to avc/264, I can find IDR of the start point, start decoding from IDR, when we meet start point we re-encode frames into a new file, we keep doing so till we meet next IDR, called IDR2. Then we got a new prefix-264-file.

Second, I can demux original file from IDR2 into a new middle-part-file. Attention: this will also generate new audio stream file(s), call them middle-audio-file.

Third, I can link (prefix-264-file) and (middle-part-file + middle-audio-file) by a 264 re-mux operation.

I do have all these source code we need, but they are all coarse source code, needed to be combined together. That is not very difficult, but a time-consuming work.

And finally comes the real hard job: a/v sync. Since the prefix file has no audio boundled, select a start point of middle-audio will be important. This will lead to a/v out of sync if we do not take care of it.
The in-fluency you mentioned before, may comes from such kind of problem.

...

May be after that, I can find some time, make a so-called 'smart' program. Hope you will find this time very soon! Many TB of H.264 footage is waiting on many external USB disks to be frame accurately smart cut with a/v-sync conserved throughout!

Not so many people need this high-demand thing, but it looks useful, and worth a try.Not so many people? Here you are definitly wrong! EVERYBODY (including me and some million other users) needs frame accurate, a/v-sync conserving, smart editing (no re-encoding, only copying of middle part)!
Everybody takes this for granted from mpeg2 editing. For mpeg2 there is excellent freeware availble which sets a comfortable standard, for example Mpeg2Schnitt for PAL footage. We need and want the same comfort for h.264!
It is astonishing, all those who can do it with re-encoding seem to not want to do it with re-encoding the first and last edited GOP only. Maybe they are so proud being able to re-encode that simply to copy the middle part is too less a challange for them?

By the way, the middle-part-file may be held in the memory buffer, make the operation in-the-fly. With HDTV captures the (copy only) middle-part generally is some GB. I do not have so much free buffer memory on my laptop.

I am happy to use Ventolin's TSPE until you or somebody else will come up with a "H264Cutter" with features for h.264 footage like Mpeg2Schnitt provides for mpeg2 footage.
TSPE does an excellent job for all projects where cutting to a millisecond is not required. You learn to use it fluently by doing 2 or 3 jobs. Then it is easy to use. Gives exact control of what is done. Produces output at the speed of a copy operation. Best of all, a/v-sync is conserved throughout all processing and does not require demuxing and remuxing steps in the workflow!

It will be an interesting competition. Who will be first to provide the real thing? Ventolin, guodongzhe or others working to the same goal?
For the time being, Ventolin is ahead, only multi-stream support and frame-accurate smart editing of first and final GOP of each EDL needs to be added. Then it will be perfect.
Or, take Ventolin's a/v-sync solution and mix it with guodongzhe's prefix/postfix-264-file solution... Just dreaming...

...Anyway, what is a P/I/IDR frame?LonelyPixel, a good question for an user with your nickname! Anyway, what is a pixel? Aren't pixels small details of frames? Aren't there frames with more and with less pixels, even with lonely pixels? You forgot to mention key frames. Have a look at Wikipedia. Download TSPE trial and explore it yourself. ;)

... And when cutting within the movie, I really need to find the very same frame, not something a few 100 ms off. I fully agree with you that this will be the goal. No need to worry about finding other suitable cut points at key frames where the flow of video and audio does not get interrupted. Give the wise guys some more weeks and we will get what we really want!

Cheers,

Cela

[LonelyPixel]

Mpeg2Schnitt is not frame-accurate!

[Gavino]

Cuttermaran (http://www.cuttermaran.de/)(which is free) provides frame-accurate MPEG1/2 editing, re-encoding only where necessary to rebuild an edited GOP.

[Cela]

Mpeg2Schnitt is not frame-accurate!
LOL. Mpeg2Schnitt (german for "Mpeg2Cut"), like Cuttermaran, IS frame-accurate if you use it correctly!

You may not use it often. Or, if you use it, you did not set it up correctly. I use its frame-accurate cut feature every day!

Google translation from the appropriate section in the (german) help file:
3. Cuts Set
The parts of the video or (and) the audio files into the newly-cut files are to be taken must be cut in the cut list will be added (positive list). Each section consists of one IN and one OUT intersection. The IN-intersection is the first picture that is being adopted and the OUT-intersection is the last picture is still on. To create the cuts do you control the corresponding point in the video and then press the IN or OUT button. The intersection is taken over and the key right next to it appears. Clicking this button allows the slider to jump to the appropriate position. In addition, the cut as a blue area on the sliding scale. Is the IN and OUT of the intersection must be cut down in the cut list will be inserted. For this you click on the bottom button (with the small scissors). As cuts in the cut list can be inserted under Options -> cut list -> Others can be set. Should another short Einfügeart {~ input mode} can be used by Rechtsklich {~ right mouse button click} on this button a sub menu. The entry will overwrite the change in the cut list, cut marked with the actual value. If the IN or OUT button with a question mark and red text must be an intersection at this point to be recalculated. The intersection must be calculated are also in the cut list red. Cuts with no new points are calculated only on I and P frames possible. The sequence of cuts in cut list can push through with the mouse will change. Some functions, such as "Intersection delete", are available only through the context menu of the editing window or keystrokes away.

This translation is really bad. But what it tells is:
Mpeg2Schnitt does I-to-I frame and I-to-P frame cuts WITHOUT re-encoding and other cuts (marked with red text) WITH re-encoding (recalculation) to and from the next I frame. To use re-encoding you have to setup the connection between Mpeg2Schnitt and your favourite encoder first!

In short:
Cuttermaran (http://www.cuttermaran.de/)(which is free) provides frame-accurate MPEG1/2 editing, re-encoding only where necessary to rebuild an edited GOP. Same applies to Mpeg2Schnitt (which is free)!

Cela

[LonelyPixel]

Last time I tried version 0.91, it did not allow to set in/out points somewhere else than every few frames. NOT everywhere. Can you please point me to the help page? I cannot find the text you're referring to. (German description is okay.)

[Cela]

Last time I tried version 0.91, it did not allow to set in/out points somewhere else than every few frames. NOT everywhere. Can you please point me to the help page? I cannot find the text you're referring to. (German description is okay.)
Mpeg2Schnitt homepage (in german):
http://www.mdienert.de/mpeg2schnitt/

Mpeg2Schnitt forum (in german):
http://forum.dvbtechnics.info/forumdisplay.php?f=15

For a correct setup of frame-accurate cutting, please, refer to the instructions in the "Hilfe" (Help):
> open Mpeg2Schnitt homepage (in german) at http://www.mdienert.de/mpeg2schnitt/
> Select "Hilfe" (Help) at the left side of the HP and you will get "Hilfe zum Mpeg2Schnitt-Programmpaket" (Help for Mpen2Schnitt)
You can also download the Help File "Mpeg2Schnitt09HtmlHilfe.zip" in the Download section.

Start reading by selcting "Erste Schritte" (first steps)
> Einfuehrung in (Introduction to) Mpeg2Schnitt
> Systemvoraussetzungen und Installation (System requirements and installation)
> In wenigen Schritten zum geschnittenen Video (In a few steps to the cut video)

For setup of frame-accurate cutting, please, consult
> "Hilfe" > "Wie macht man was" (How to do it)
> There select "Programmeinstellungen" (program settings)
> The select "Encoder - framegenauer Schnitt, lange GOPs kürzen" (Encoder - frame-accurate cut, shorten long GOPS)

It is very important to follow all the instructions precisely.
I use "Encoder\EncoderHC21.prg"
DGDecode.dll Version 1.4.8.0 217 KB
HCenc_021.exe Version 0.21.0.0 1.168 KB
and
HC.ini
with the following 4 lines as content:
*MAXBITRATE 6000
*MATRIX mpeg
*NOSCD
*WAIT 0

and
EncoderHC21.prg with the following content:
[Encoder HC021]
X0X=*interlaced
X1X=
:enc
Echo Videoteil berechnen ($BeginIndex#, $EndIndex#)
cpsourcefile
copyx "$ProgramDirectory#\Encoder\HC-M2S-org.ini" "$TempDirectory#\HC-M2S.ini"
:eff
copyx "$ProgramDirectory#\Encoder\HC-M2S-Eff-org.ini" "$TempDirectory#\HC-M2S.ini"
Rem :all
Rem "$ProgramDirectory#\Encoder\DGmpgdec\DGIndex.exe" -IF=[$PartFile#] -OF=[$PartFiled2v#] -hide -exit
:enc
RunnotCml "$ProgramDirectory#\Encoder\HCEnc\HCenc_021.exe" -i "$PartFiled2v#" -o "$NewFile#" -ini "$TempDirectory#\HC-M2S.ini"
:eff
RunnotCml "$ProgramDirectory#\Encoder\HCEnc\HCenc_021.exe" -i "$TempDirectory#\AViSynthscript.avs" -o "$NewFile#" -ini "$TempDirectory#\HC-M2S.ini"
:all
Rem DeleteTempFiles=0


The Google translation quotes the following section of the "Hilfe":
> Erste Schritte (First steps)
>> In wenigen Schritten zum geschnittenen Video (Few steps to the cut video)
>>> 3. Schnitte festlegen (Doing the cuts - How to cut)

There should be an english version out there, at least I know from the forum that there were translations done. But since my german is better than my english, I did not follow up.

If you need more informations feel free to contact me by PM.

Good luck,

Cela