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Ramir Gonzales
28th September 2008, 17:35
Hi,

Sorry for sounding pretty newb, I think this question is better posted here than in the newbies section.

I use some programs to convert my movies back to DVD format, I'm a longtime TmpgEnc XPress user, and I use ConvertXtoDVD also now and then, and also FAVC.

But the question : How come all these tools produce such horribly looking subtitles ? I mean on the PC there's vobsub that creates fantastic looking Anti-Aliased subtitles which look fantastic. Why can't these apps create the same quality when building the subtitle streams for DVD ?

:helpful:

LoRd_MuldeR
28th September 2008, 17:44
Because subtitles on a Video-DVD are stored as bitmaps (of limited resolution and limited colorspace), they are not stored as texts.
So this is not a problem of the Tool, but a limitation of the Video-DVD standard and it's what you have to pay for Standalone-compatibility.
Not sure whether "hard" subtitles would look better, but you couldn't turn them off then...

Ramir Gonzales
28th September 2008, 18:06
Thanks a lot Lord_Mulder, your post resolved all my questions ! :cool:

manono
28th September 2008, 20:48
So this is not a problem of the Tool, but a limitation of the Video-DVD standard and it's what you have to pay for Standalone-compatibility.
I'm not sure I agree. I use neither TMPGEnc XPress nor ConvertXToDVD, but I have no trouble at all creating subs easily as good as those on commercial DVDs. If only lousy subs can be created using those 2 programs, you can either use other programs to make your DVDs, or make the subs separately and later replace the ones created by those programs.

LoRd_MuldeR
28th September 2008, 21:43
I didn't mean you cannot get the subtitle quality of commercial DVD's, but you cannot get the quality of "soft" subtitles rendered by a software-player.
And that is a limitation of the bitmap-based subtitles, as used on Video-DVD's ...


[EDIT]

Compare this: Subtitles from a commercial DVD versus "soft" subtitles (SRT) rendered by DirectVobSub ;)

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/8157/subtitlesdvdwx6.th.png (http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=subtitlesdvdwx6.png)http://img265.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php) http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/345/subtitlessoftof0.th.png (http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=subtitlessoftof0.png)http://img151.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

ukendt
28th September 2008, 22:46
I use some programs to convert my movies back to DVD format, I'm a longtime TmpgEnc XPress user, and I use ConvertXtoDVD also now and then, and also FAVC.

It sounds very strange too me...Why on earth converting back?
Just use the original dvds with the subs that followed with them. Adding a new sub is also possible and the quality will be very good just using free progs and maybe even better using pro progs.
Normally will a good shrink with new sub(s) be almost as good as the original using a suitable amount of passes(picture quality).
But, of course, nothing compares with a good, original dvd or, even less, BR movies. BR and 1080p on full HD TV is excellent.

manono
29th September 2008, 00:53
Compare this: Subtitles from a commercial DVD versus "soft" subtitles (SRT) rendered by DirectVobSub ;)
That's kind of my point, though. The commercial one has antialiasing (I think), a nicer font, a nicer light grey color, while the SRT (and, I would guess, similar subs made by programs such as ConvertXToDVD using the SRT as a source for the DVD subs) is very plain and white. Maybe some people would actually prefer the SRTs, I don't know, but I don't much like them at all. The OP, Ramir Gonzales, doesn't like the DVD subs made by the programs he uses, and I'm guessing he is having them made from an SRT. You said before:
Because subtitles on a Video-DVD are stored as bitmaps (of limited resolution and limited colorspace), they are not stored as texts.
Subtitles made by ConvertX or any other DVD conversion or authoring program are also stored as BMPs, even if the source is an SRT or other text-based format. But many of these programs don't allow for much customization of those subs, so you're kind of stuck with what they want to give you. Which is why I suggested the use of other programs or the replacement of those subs with better ones afterwards.

But maybe I'm missing your point, LoRd_MuldeR. I think we probably pretty much agree with each other. :)

LoRd_MuldeR
29th September 2008, 01:13
My point is that subtitles on a Video-DVD have some limitations on quality, because of their bitmap-based nature. The player doesn't render these subtitles, it simply lays the bitmap over the video. So there is no way to tweak the look and it clearly shows aliasing, as you can see on my screenshot taken from a commercial DVD. When you create a DVD with subtitles your self, you can get up to the quality level of a commercial DVD, but not behind that. And at that point the quality of your subtitles is limited by the DVD Standard and not by the tool you used to create the DVD. You won't be able to get nice anti-aliased fonts, as shown on my second screenshot taken from a software player using DirectVobSub to renderer the "soft" subtitles. I got no idea about subtitles on BlueRay, I was talking about Video-DVD only...

Ramir Gonzales
29th September 2008, 13:15
It sounds very strange too me...Why on earth converting back?
Just use the original dvds with the subs that followed with them. Adding a new sub is also possible and the quality will be very good just using free progs and maybe even better using pro progs.
Normally will a good shrink with new sub(s) be almost as good as the original using a suitable amount of passes(picture quality).
But, of course, nothing compares with a good, original dvd or, even less, BR movies. BR and 1080p on full HD TV is excellent.

Hi ukendt,

I understand that your first thought is "Warez!!! warez !!!! The pirates are commin' !!!!! " but I bought a whole bunch of old French DVD's WITHOUT subtitles. I only want to add dutch subs to them. ;)

EDIT: I'm actually not knowledged enough how to add "external" subtitles to a DVD without actually de- & re-encoding it first.

@manono Yep, that's my thought also, the DVD format leaves room for about 6 colors (correct me if I'm wrong, I only base this on what I see in DVDSubEdit) so that must be quite enough to make the substream using anti-aliased fonts. After all, it's just a BMP steam, the DVD player will play it, no matter how many colors.

I just use those 2 programs, I really can't afford buying another product that does it better, certainly not those 200+$ tools, and I even don't know IF these actually do it better.

EDIT: Well, I guess Lord_Mulder is right (as always :)) , I guess the problem ain't related to the max amount of colors, but actually the max allowed dpi of the BMP stream.

manono
29th September 2008, 13:28
EDIT: I'm actually not knowledged enough how to add "external" subtitles to a DVD without actually de- & re-encoding it first.
It's time you learned. Reencoding and degrading the source DVD just to add in a subtitle is completely unnecessary:

http://forum.videohelp.com/topic338721.html

Ramir Gonzales
29th September 2008, 13:38
It's time you learned. Reencoding and degrading the source DVD just to add in a subtitle is completely unnecessary:

http://forum.videohelp.com/topic338721.html

Thanks !!! Learning time ! :)

ukendt
29th September 2008, 14:48
Did You really convert dvds to avi and reconvert to dvd?
Oh God...

ManOfHonor
4th October 2008, 14:50
but I have no trouble at all creating subs easily as good as those on commercial DVDs.
Which software you use for creating subtitles? Can you share with me your settings for those good looking subtitles? I use MaestroSBT + MaestroDVD, font Tahoma 24, white color. I noticed that some commercial DVDs used Helvetica font. Thanks in advance!

manono
4th October 2008, 16:37
Hi-

My methods are similar to yours. I use MaestroSBT to create SST subs for use in Muxman. I use Tahoma font size 22 (24 sometimes for 16:9 DVDs). I think anti-aliasing is important and use Black/Dark Grey/Light Grey for Outline/Anti-Aliasing/Main Color. I don't know what Helvetica looks like, but some of the DVDs I admire the most, those from Criterion and Eclipse, also use Tahoma or something very close to it. But I'm doing it to please myself, and not really trying to copy the studios. So, I can easily understand if someone else might prefer a different font with different colors. The subs wind up looking very much like those here:

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDReviews40/aki_kaurismaki_proletariat_trilogy.htm
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDReviews40/la_ronde.htm

linyx
5th October 2008, 06:30
EDIT: I'm actually not knowledged enough how to add "external" subtitles to a DVD without actually de- & re-encoding it first.
As said by "manono", that is a very bad idea; UNLESS you want to burn the subtitles into the video (as stated by LoRd_MuldeR). You can burn the subtitles directly into the video with avisynth, vsfilter, and quenc (or HC Encoder). Simply extract your subtitles to srt or idx/sub, then create an avisynth script like such:
DirectShowSource("Video.m2v")
TextSub("Eng-normal.srt")
Finally run that through quenc and your subtitles will look nice like the "soft" subs, but they cannot be turned off either.
It's a compromise either way.:)

Ramir Gonzales
6th October 2008, 15:33
Good ! Thanks for the help linyx !:)

So I have to feed this to HC Encoder.
DirectShowSource("Video.m2v")
TextSub("Eng-normal.srt")

So how do I get .m2v in the first place ? Which app does that ?

And which app uses HC Encoder ?

I'm actually just a registered TmpgEnc user, and also ConvertXtoDVD and FAVC and DVD Shrink, but I dont remember seeing any .m2v file, nor did I hear about HCencoder.

Sorry for being such a beginner.:stupid:

linyx
6th October 2008, 23:00
Sorry for being such a beginner.:stupid:
No problem. Everyone was a beginner at one point.:)

Maybe i will write a guide on how to do this, as i am doing it for all of my movies. That said, here goes:

Use PgcDemux (http://download.videohelp.com/jsoto/dvdtools.htm) to extract video, audio, subtitles, and celltimes. Next, create an avisynth script to do the subtitles overlay. Open the avs file in QuEnc (http://www.doom9.org/Soft21/Encoders/MPEG2/QuEnc072.exe). (my favorite mpeg-2 encoder). Set a good high bitrate, and encode. Remux everything with Muxman (http://www.mpucoder.com/Muxman/muxman_0_16_6.zip), then reauthor with VobBlanker (http://www.doom9.org/Soft21/Vobtools/VobBlanker_2130_exe.zip).

Send me a PM if you need more detailed help.

netmask
7th October 2008, 03:55
In ConvertXtoDVD there is a subtitle style editor in the more recent versions. Just look under file sets and click the icon next to subtitle text style editor.