Too much bitrate?

[Metallo]

Hi,

I have burned 8137MB of MPEG2 in a DVD-DL, burning was successful but... one of the videos doesn't play the audio on my standalone DVD player, the same disc works fine in my PC.

I think I went over the kbps limit of the DVD standard:

Video A: 7800 kbps
Video B: 4489 kbps
Audio A: 224 kbps
Audio B: 48 kbps
Audio C (Menu): 1535 kbps

If I am right in my conclusion, then it's difficult to match DVD specs in a DL, you can store more information but the bitrate is still 10080 kbps :confused:

:thanks:

Alex

[setarip_old]

Hi!one of the videos doesn't play the audio on my standalone DVD player, the same disc works fine in my PC.Which audiostream is not playing - and what is the format of that audiostream (.AC3, DTS, PCM, MP2)?

[Metallo]

Hi!Which audiostream is not playing - and what is the format of that audiostream (.AC3, DTS, PCM, MP2)?

Hi, it is PCM
to be more precise it is a VOB file and the audio in it is PCM :)

[setarip_old]

to be more precise it is a VOB file and the audio in it is PCMI'm afraid I find it more confusing, rather than more precise.

1) My interpretation of your initial post is that you have burned a DVD that contains a menu with audio at 1535Kbps (format unstated but presumably PCM), a first video with audio at 224Kbps (format unstated) and a second separate video with audio at 48Kbps (format unstated, PCM very unlikely, likely NOT DVD compatible).

2) You have not stated WHICH of the videos plays without audio - Which one is it?

3) You've not stated whether your menu contains active video and, if so, at what rate. - Please advise

4) What were the original source materials and their respective video and audio bitrates (and audio format)?

5) What software and procedures did you use to convert to DVD?

[Metallo]

I'm afraid I find it more confusing, rather than more precise.

1) My interpretation of your initial post is that you have burned a DVD that contains a menu with audio at 1535Kbps (format unstated but presumably PCM), a first video with audio at 224Kbps (format unstated) and a second separate video with audio at 48Kbps (format unstated, PCM very unlikely, likely NOT DVD compatible).

2) You have not stated WHICH of the videos plays without audio - Which one is it?

3) You've not stated whether your menu contains active video and, if so, at what rate. - Please advise

4) What were the original source materials and their respective video and audio bitrates (and audio format)?

5) What software and procedures did you use to convert to DVD?

OK, let's take out the confusion then.

The DVD menu is just a background picture with audio (PCM)

The original source of Video A is DV file out of my digital camcorder and has been encoded with Procoder 2 VBR 1 pass, average bitrate 7480 kbps.
Its audio is AC3 224 kbps.
I used the subtitle menu to add the timecode.
Video A in its complex plays and sounds perfectly.

The Video B is a slideshow that I encoded as a video.
The reason why I do so is because I use DVDLab Pro to author the project, but when it comes to slideshows it is a weak tool, therefore the procedure I use for slideshows is to make them as video using an excellent program called "MOTV" (Memories On TV), I can easily manage picture and generate video streams in VOB format.
I can drag the .VOB file in DVDLab Pro and encode it or, demux and load the .m2v + .wav separately, result is the same.
Now, you are right when you say that 48kbps is not PCM, in fact it is a PCM (.wav) but it shows up in DVDLab Pro as 48Kbps, which is strange to me too.
The thing is that all the tests I have done so far using a smaller file for Video A (I tried one encoded with average bitrate 4000), and same file for Video B show that the whole disc is working perfectly.
Burning the Video B alone, also plays perfectly.
That's why I think the problem stays in the bitrate limitation.

I will look again in DVDLab Pro and try to understand why the audio in Video B shows as 48kbps but I suspect a bug.

But... you did not answer my initial question:
being the sum of both videos bitrate more than 12000 kbps, I am above the limits of the DVD standard, is this valid for dual layers too?

Hope things are now clearer :)

BTW, another problem could possibly be the DVD media I use...Ritek DVD-R DL, I am trying to finish them 'cause they are rubbish, maybe I will try the whole thing with Verbatim, but you know every test and disc thrown away is expensive with dual layers :devil:
Simulations with Nero before the actual burning are always perfect but then...
I wonder if there's a way to simulate a DL burning without losing money every time :eek:

Regards
Alex

[setarip_old]

The DVD standard for maximum combined audio/video bitrate is 10,080Kbps regardless of the total combined filesize or required burnable media (single or double layer - BUT that maximum is for the combined audio and video bitrates of a SINGLE video, NOT the cumulative totals of ALL videos that happen to be on one DVD.

Based on the information in your initial post, the maximim combined bitrate you're using/generating is 8,024Kbps (7,800 video plus 224 audio).

Just think of any of the commercial DVDs from, for example, SONY. In addition to the primary movie, they may contain as many as 10 individual previews. Applying your apparent concept would likely result in a cumulative total audio/video bitrate of 50,000Kbps or more ;>}


As far as D/L media, D/L-R is a definite "No-No", regardless of brand. The proven recommendation (over and over again) continues to be Verbatim D/L DVD+R, burned at 2.4X...

[Metallo]

The DVD standard for maximum combined audio/video bitrate is 10,080Kbps regardless of the total combined filesize or required burnable media (single or double layer - BUT that maximum is for the combined audio and video bitrates of a SINGLE video, NOT the cumulative totals of ALL videos that happen to be on one DVD.

This is an important point, are you 100% sure?
Then, I guess either the media or the mysterious 48kbps file are the issue.
I will continue my investigations and let you know the outcome.

Cheers
Alex

[Metallo]

OK, here's the status:

Checked the .wav file and according to all the sw I played it, it is indeed 48kbps.
No idea why, maybe because in the video, in addition to photos there are 5 movie clips from my camera, everything is encoded to be .wav, background music and original audio from the clips.

However, to be sure that the media was not the problem I took the risk and burned a Verbatim DVD-R DL, same result and another DL thrown away.

The last option is now to go on line and buy a new burner, I cannot see any other reason why this happens, the burner must be the problem.

As said previously, if I burn the .VOB file alone or together with a lower encoded Video A, everything is perfect.

Could it be that 8137MB being the limit of a DL is the issue?

I don't know, but having thrown away 4 DL basically I would have bought a new burner :devil:

Hope I can get some help from you folks.

Cheers
Alex

[setarip_old]

However, to be sure that the media was not the problem I took the risk and burned a Verbatim DVD-R DL, same result and another DL thrown away.Once again for D/L burning, DO NOT USE D/L DVD - R MEDIA. USE ONLY D/L DVD + R MEDIA.

This is an important point, are you 100% sure?Apparently, you didn't read the example I provided, to wit:
Just think of any of the commercial DVDs from, for example, SONY. In addition to the primary movie, they may contain as many as 10 individual previews. Applying your apparent concept would likely result in a cumulative total audio/video bitrate of 50,000Kbps or more ;>}

[talen9]

To support Satarip_old's argument, think of this: three cars all go to the same place. The first one runs at 40 km/h, the second one at 50 km/h and the third one at 60 km/h. Would you say that all togegher they run at 150 km/h ? ;)

You have to understand that "bitrate" is a unit that measures speed which, in the digital world, is not express as the ratio between space and time, but as the ratio between (k/M/G)bits in a unit of time ...

[fibbingbear]

As far as D/L media, D/L-R is a definite "No-No", regardless of brand. The proven recommendation (over and over again) continues to be Verbatim D/L DVD+R, burned at 2.4X...

I have heard that DVD+R is better than DVD-R. However, haven't there been numerous tests to show that "burning slow is better" is a myth? I thought there was even speculation that burning too slow can actually cause the media to degrade faster (I don't remember the exact argument, but it made sense at the time).

[setarip_old]

@fibbingbear

Hi!

My post is specifically regarding double-layered media - And is based on both personal experience and myriad posts at a multitude of forums.

1) Double-layered "-R" media is totally unreliable

2) The proven recommendation (over and over again) continues to be Verbatim D/L DVD "+R", burned at 2.4X - burning at higher rates have yielded inconsistent results regarding success (Some have mentioned success with a multitude of brands/MIDs and higher burn speeds, but they are very much in the minority)

[Metallo]

Once again for D/L burning, DO NOT USE D/L DVD - R MEDIA. USE ONLY D/L DVD + R MEDIA.

Apparently, you didn't read the example I provided, to wit:
Just think of any of the commercial DVDs from, for example, SONY. In addition to the primary movie, they may contain as many as 10 individual previews. Applying your apparent concept would likely result in a cumulative total audio/video bitrate of 50,000Kbps or more ;>}


Hi,

I read your previous statements and I understood the concept.
As a result, I did continue my tests using the original bitrate of all the files.

Where I partially disagree with you guys is about the performance of DVD-R DL.
So far, all my recordings are on this standard, difficult sometimes but what I have is all on -DL.
It is a question of quality, Ritek Ridata DVD-R DL are rubbish, always have been very difficult to burn.
But if you use Verbatim DVD-R DL never had a problem and, sorry but speed is not the issue, 4x I burn at 6x, the result is perfect.

Coming back to my problem with this DVD, well, I found the reason why the audio in Video B is failing.
Well, the reason of failure is because in a VTS you'd better have one single audio format for all the audio files.
I had two different ones and my standalone DVD player (a very picky player) gets confused in this scenario.

Once I converted everything to .ac3 (tested .mp2 and worked well too) I burned a Verbatim DVD-R DL which plays perfectly.

So, same audio format in one single VTS + good quality media gives the expected result, doesn't matter if DVD-+R DL.

This is my opinion which is proved by many years of good recordings using DVD-R DL standard.

Regards
Alex

[setarip_old]

Congratulations on resolving your dilemma ;>}

Also, glad to hear of your success burning D/L DVD-R media. What burning program have you used for your stated "many years of good recordings using DVD-R DL"?

[Metallo]

Congratulations on resolving your dilemma ;>}

Also, glad to hear of your success burning D/L DVD-R media. What burning program have you used for your stated "many years of good recordings using DVD-R DL"?

Any good ones:
Nero, ImgTool Burn or Plextor if dealing with image files.

Alex

[blutach]

Where I partially disagree with you guys is about the performance of DVD-R DL.
Well, start agreeing with us. DVD-R DL foir DVD Video is almost useless. It is almost impossible to set the layer break correctly since the -R format insists on burning to the edge of the disc and the LB needs to end a cell there. This, of course, should have nothing to do with not hearing audio.

The ONLY reliable DL media is Verbatim, +R, 2.4x, MKM-001-00, Made in Singapore.

You might consider using ImgBurn (www.imgburn.com) for your burning needs - it's free.

Well, the reason of failure is because in a VTS you'd better have one single audio format for all the audio files.
Not sure where you got this rubbish from either. Take many commercial DVDs - they have AC3 and DTS and some also have PCM. The maximum number of audio streams is 8.

Regards

[Metallo]

Well, start agreeing with us. DVD-R DL foir DVD Video is almost useless.

Well, I have been lucky so far then :rolleyes:
Maybe the burning device has also an influence, however, I will try the Verbatim DVD+R DL 8x and see if my picky Denon DVD2900 can live with them (they support -R).


Not sure where you got this rubbish from either. Take many commercial DVDs - they have AC3 and DTS and some also have PCM. The maximum number of audio streams is 8.


You can have different types of Audio streams for a Video stream within the very same VTS! However, in case there's more than one movie in the VTS, you are allowed different audio types only provided the number and type of Audio streams is identical for each of the Video streams within that VTS!

So this would not work:
VTS1: Movie 1 - AC3 Audio
VTS1: Movie 2 - MPA Audio
In that case you would need to create 2 VTSs indeed.

This however would be okay:
VTS1: Movie 1 - AC3 and MPA
VTS2: Movie 2 - AC3 and MPA

Hope this is clearer :)

Cheers
Alex

[blutach]

Why wouldn't it work?

PGC 1 - audio attributes = 0
PGC 2 - audio attributes = 1

where 0 = ac3 stream and 1 = mp2 stream

Regards

[Metallo]

Why wouldn't it work?

PGC 1 - audio attributes = 0
PGC 2 - audio attributes = 1

where 0 = ac3 stream and 1 = mp2 stream

Regards

Well, this is according to the DVD standard specs.
This doesn't necessarily mean that it won't play, it is very much depending on the standalone DVD player.
My Denon DVD 2900 is very rigid to the DVD standard rules, therefore it won't play a disc where the audio streams for two movies in the same VTS are of different format.
Other players will play those discs without problems.

Cheers
Alex

[setarip_old]

My Denon DVD 2900 is very rigid to the DVD standard rulesAlthough your player certainly is in the category of "high quality", it's also about 4 or 5 years old. You might want to look for a newer "high quality" player that doesn't have the restrictions that you perceive to exist on your 2900. It's lokely you'll find that the prices are substantially lower than they were when your 2900 was a new product release...

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_1/denon-dvd-2900-dvd-player-1-2004.html

[Metallo]

Although your player certainly is in the category of "high quality", it's also about 4 or 5 years old. You might want to look for a newer "high quality" player that doesn't have the restrictions that you perceive to exist on your 2900. It's lokely you'll find that the prices are substantially lower than they were when your 2900 was a new product release...

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_1/denon-dvd-2900-dvd-player-1-2004.html


You are certainly right, but DVD 2900 is also a very good SACD and DVD-A player in addition to its excellent video image quality, therefore I wouldn't like to sell it and have not enough space for two, at least not for the time being :mad:
If you buy a cheap player at the supermarket it reads any format and any disc, sometimes it drives me crazy.

Regards
Alex

[setarip_old]

I'm fully aware of the multiple/"universal" playback capabilities of the 2900 and was not suggesting that you "trade down" in either quality or capability - just to "trade up" to a newer product with similar but improved capabilities, likely at a significantly lower price than you paid when your 2900 was new...

[blutach]

You need do neither. What I suggested was not off spec at all.

Regards