Red Ray: 4k on DVD

[um3k]

Didn't see this anywhere on doom9: http://www.red.com/nab/redray

The most amazing claim is that it will play 2hrs of 4k footage off a DVD-9. Seems improbable if you ask me, but why would anyone ask me? What do you think?

Oh, and Red Ray will supposedly retail for under $1000.

[setarip_old]

Hi!

My decrepit memory includes a reference to this same thing appearing at the Doom9 Forum 6 months or so ago - and the link even included a sample video...

[Inventive Software]

Those cameras are hellish expensive though. I think it's there to complement the camera setup that some studios can afford to have.

[setarip_old]

@um3k

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1061022#post1061022

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1084794#post1084794

[um3k]

I sort of knew about that stuff, but this is something new. 2 hours of 4096x2304 footage on a DL DVD-R is something pretty much unheard of.

By the way, the 4k Red One is $17,500, which is dirt cheap compared to its competition. The 3k (3072x1728) Scarlet is even better, at ~$3,000. I wouldn't call that expensive, considering that many HDV (1440x1080) camcorders cost more.

[mpucoder]

This was mentioned in the front page news on 4/16. I don't see any reference to DVD for this drive. It uses Red Disk, which is 2 2.5" hard drives, or flash memory.

[um3k]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=195980&postcount=16
Stuart English is an employee of Red.

[MfA]

He could be the second coming, it's still bull.

[um3k]

That's what they said about the Red One. We'll see what happens with this.

[Blue_MiSfit]

Yeah, the Red One is an amazingly good deal for what you get. A full package with primes and accessories is certainly expensive, but it's much cheaper than a CineAlta, or comparable digital cinema camera.

The Red Ray drive isn't a hard drive - its a recordable optical media. I don't know what kind of media it is - but I find it hard to believe they came up with their own storage format!!

My guess is they took something like HD-DVD, modified it slightly for their purposes, and are storing video in CineForm format, or something along those lines.

~MiSfit

[DigitAl56K]

My guess is they took something like HD-DVD, modified it slightly for their purposes, and are storing video in CineForm format, or something along those lines.

I did some browsing around the site, and it really sounds to me as if this player is designed to play the media from their cameras, which records RAW up to 5K (although redray only claims to play up to 4K).

http://www.red.com/nab/redray :
PLAYS 4K, 2K, 1080P, 720P AND SD FROM RED DISC AND RED EXPRESS

http://www.red.com/cameras :
RED offers the Mysterium ™ Super 35mm cine sized (24.4×13.7mm) sensor, which provides 4K (up to 30 fps), 3K (up to 60 fps) and 2K (up to 120 fps) capture, and all this with wide dynamic range and color space in 12 bit native RAW.

http://www.red.com/cameras/tech_specs :
Delivery Formats:
4K RGB
3K RGB
2K RGB
1920×1080 progressive, RGB or 4:2:2
1280×720 progressive, RGB or 4:2:2

Project Frame Rates:
3.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 30 fps 4K
plus 50, 59.94 and 60 fps 3K (windowed)
plus 75 and 120 fps 2K (windowed)

http://www.red.com/nab/epic (5K model)
1-100 FPS
UP TO 100 MB/SEC. REDCODE RAW AND RGB RECORDING TO REDFLASH

I doubt the cams will encode H.264 at 4K in realtime for the redray, that's something that can be achieved in much superior quality via software.

[CruNcher]

Redcode (the codec behind the RED Cam) sounds so similiar to Cineform is it actually Cineform? i mean is Redcode RAW = Cineform RAW and Redcode RGB = Cineform ??? they even share the fractional realtime decoding.
http://www.red.com/red_mythbusters

[Blue_MiSfit]

That video is damned impressive. It's truly amazing how easy digital cine has become.

They did oversimplify things a bit by not offloading the red-drive first, and by just dropping the video in FCP, and not doing any color correction or RAW processing.

I was a little surprised to discover that the standard process is to edit 4k offline in 2k. Makes sense when you think about it, since there are no real 4k displays out yet ;) I guess you online the 4k when you're done, and make a 35mm print from that!

Amazing how fast and easy it is though... I can't wait to play with one. I also wonder how many streams an octo MacPro can handle in real time.

Truly impressive overall. Digital filmmaking has literally been revolutionized again over the last year.

~MiSfit

[CruNcher]

Yeah but i speak about the codec the workflow is also realizable (intermediate) with H.264 or Dirac for example also Canopus HQ comes to my mind here Redcode has no Hardware support yet neither Cineform H.264 sounds like a much better solution here and tests i did in that case between H.264, Cineform and Canopus HQ showed this also over more generations tough the fractional decoding isn't possible with H.264 not the normal H.264 at least but it should be no problem with SVC. Personally i think Dirac will be better suited for this in the Future tough :)


I was a little surprised to discover that the standard process is to edit 4k offline in 2k. Makes sense when you think about it, since there are no real 4k displays out yet I guess you online the 4k when you're done, and make a 35mm print from that!

Ehh for what if i guess correct Cineform RAW is jpg2000 based Wavelett which automatically would make it Digital Cinema compatible and so the distribution would even become easier you could do the whole film on location cut it and transmit it directly to post and when it's finished via Satellite to a distribution center and those transfer it to the distros and later a digital cinema could directly request it from the distros server. It would make no sense anymore to make a 35mm print @ all in this chain, tough of course it will still take some time before it will be fully established this way, but im sure it will come this way. Also from this negative final @ the distribution center all the other versions for Online Services could be created from and distroed out to all the different platforms directly (and alot of this could be automated so you won't need as much staff anymore (lower personal costs) and could save money, so belive me Film will die faster then you think, tough the maintenance costs for such a fully Digital System would be very high and also you had heavy after costs, like backup systems and regularly updating the storage systems.)

[jamieg-au]

The Red Ray sounds great and all but its not suitable for distribution. From the looks of it, its really a unit to help with the complaints of the workflow and getting access to the shot footage. Ie viewing rushes and other needs.

Why would the distribution chain select a proprietory format when standards exist. DCI and JPEG2000 is a joke in that it is near 300gig per film. (Its been over engineered by influences like Kodak, who makes billion every years digital is not adopted.)

Standards like H.264 HIGH 4:2:2/4:4:4 10bit colour (Same as the ultra hi end digital film cameras) and also does up to 4k resolutions. This is a standard but implementations are not yet available. Films will be more like the 80-100 gig. (You could probably get less if you encoded it well)

The $1000 price tag is a little is quite amazing however, and is it does come in at that. (I am amazed) it will rock the industry in terms of what comapnies hope to get back from making this technology.

The U.S is typically, in my experience, a screw em for as much as you can get, type place. (Can you blame them, its the capital of capitalism.) RED and products like this go against the trend.

James