1080PsF - Progressive Segmented Frames

[Seraphic-]

Could anyone offer some clarification as to how 1080PsF works? From what I researched, it looks like it captures interlaced, but stores in a progressive format?

[Inventive Software]

From your description, it sounds like it's much like some DVDs nowadays... progressive frames, but encoded interlaced.

[bigotti5]

PSF means progressive frames but transported just as interlaced frames.



The term segmented frame in the context of this Recommendation is intended to indicate that a
picture has been captured in a progressive mode, and transported as two segments. One segment containing
the odd lines of the progressive image, the second segment containing the even lines of the progressive
image....
...The 24PsF/25PsF/30PsF transmission format maps a progressive image onto the interlace digital
serial interface as defined in this Recommendation...
ITU-R BT.709-5 Annex 1

[Seraphic-]

So, what is the end result? Do you end up with 1080i or 1080p in the final video?

[Blue_MiSfit]

The end result (when handled correctly) is progressive video. Think of it as telecine.

~MiSfit

[Seraphic-]

Blue_MiSfit, have you worked with 1080psF before?

Would 1080PsF 23.98FPS end up as 1080p 47.96FPS? If so, wouldn't 1080i 29.97FPS produce the same end result (after frame duplication) at 1080p 59.94FPS

[drmpeg]

Blue_MiSfit, have you worked with 1080psF before?

Would 1080PsF 23.98FPS end up as 1080p 47.96FPS? If so, wouldn't 1080i 29.97FPS produce the same end result (after frame duplication) at 1080p 59.94FPS
I've worked with 1080PsF. 1080PsF@24 frames/sec is equivalent to 1080i@48 fields/sec, which allows older CRT studio monitors to sync up to the 1080i@48 timing (they will not sync to 1080p@24). This is the primary benefit of 1080PsF.

For hardware encoders, you have to capture interlaced, but do a progressive 4:2:2 to 4:2:0 conversion.

On HD-SDI, a 1080PsF@29.97 signal is indistinguishable from a 1080i@29.97 (or 1080i@59.94 fields/sec if you prefer) signal. Only by examining the content and seeing that it's all progressive would you be sure it's 1080PsF@29.97

Ron

[Seraphic-]

I've worked with 1080PsF. 1080PsF@24 frames/sec is equivalent to 1080i@48 fields/sec, which allows older CRT studio monitors to sync up to the 1080i@48 timing (they will not sync to 1080p@24). This is the primary benefit of 1080PsF.

For hardware encoders, you have to capture interlaced, but do a progressive 4:2:2 to 4:2:0 conversion.

On HD-SDI, a 1080PsF@29.97 signal is indistinguishable from a 1080i@29.97 (or 1080i@59.94 fields/sec if you prefer) signal. Only by examining the content and seeing that it's all progressive would you be sure it's 1080PsF@29.97

Ron

So as someone who is wanting to capture 1080p (for video content delivery over download), does 1080PsF@24 rank over using 1080i@29.97 then? From what you are saying, it seems they are really about the same. As both would require de-interlacing to align the frames and remove the negative aspects of movement when using viewed on a PC progressive monitor. Just that 1080PsF@24 would offer a lesser final frame rate then 1080i@29.97.

Also, why would you have to do 4:2:2 to 4:2:0 conversion? Wouldn't you be losing a good deal of quality?

[drmpeg]

So as someone who is wanting to capture 1080p (for video content delivery over download), does 1080PsF@24 rank over using 1080i@29.97 then? From what you are saying, it seems they are really about the same. As both would require de-interlacing to align the frames and remove the negative aspects of movement when using viewed on a PC progressive monitor. Just that 1080PsF@24 would offer a lesser final frame rate then 1080i@29.97.

Also, why would you have to do 4:2:2 to 4:2:0 conversion? Wouldn't you be losing a good deal of quality?
I don't understand your question. 1080PsF@24 and 1080i@29.97 are two different things. I'm not sure how you can rank one over the other. You would use one or the other based on your content.

The 1080PsF format really only exists on HD-SDI. It is not an image format. The only time you would be forced to use 1080PsF is if your content is on HD-CAM. If it's on D5, then you usually have a choice between 1080p24 and 1080PsF24, or if it's an older deck, 1080p24 only.

Ron

[Seraphic-]

I don't understand your question. 1080PsF@24 and 1080i@29.97 are two different things. I'm not sure how you can rank one over the other. You would use one or the other based on your content.

The 1080PsF format really only exists on HD-SDI. It is not an image format. The only time you would be forced to use 1080PsF is if your content is on HD-CAM. If it's on D5, then you usually have a choice between 1080p24 and 1080PsF24, or if it's an older deck, 1080p24 only.

Ron

I'm asking because I was looking at this card for HDMI (Xbox360) capture. 1080PsF23.98/24 (also 1080i48, 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 720p59.94, 720p60 and 720p50) are supported over HDMI, at least what I was told by Blackmagic support.

What I'm trying to understand is, if I my source was 1080p (console game-play) and/or I was trying to get as close to 1080p as possible, should 1080PsF or 1080i be used when trying to attain the highest quality image?

DeckLink HD Extreme
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hd/techspecs/

[drmpeg]

I'm asking because I was looking at this card for HDMI (Xbox360) capture. 1080PsF23.98/24 (also 1080i48, 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 720p59.94, 720p60 and 720p50) are supported over HDMI, at least what I was told by Blackmagic support.

What I'm trying to understand is, if I my source was 1080p (console game-play) and/or I was trying to get as close to 1080p as possible, should 1080PsF or 1080i be used when trying to attain the highest quality image?

DeckLink HD Extreme
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hd/techspecs/
HDMI doesn't support PsF or 1080i@48. Those are only available on HD-SDI.

The real issue for you is what formats the Xbox360 can output. I don't think it can do 1080p24, and you can't use 1080p60 with the BlackMagic. So 1080i may be your only choice.

However, the Xbox360 may still be sending progressive frames. You'll just have to try it out.

BTW, does the Xbox360 turn on HDCP for games? If yes, the Black Magic won't work.

Ron

[Seraphic-]

HDMI doesn't support PsF or 1080i@48. Those are only available on HD-SDI.

The real issue for you is what formats the Xbox360 can output. I don't think it can do 1080p24, and you can't use 1080p60 with the BlackMagic. So 1080i may be your only choice.

However, the Xbox360 may still be sending progressive frames. You'll just have to try it out.

BTW, does the Xbox360 turn on HDCP for games? If yes, the Black Magic won't work.

Ron

HDMI might not support 1080PsF or 1080i@48, although, Xbox360 can output 1080p over HDMI. And, from what I was told, the DeckLink HD Extreme should be able to accept the 1080p stream over HDMI from Xbox360 and then capture it as 1080psF. However, I need to call and confirm this.

[easy2Bcheesy]

This avenue is basically pointless for games capture. They're incompatible formats. At best - even if it worked, which it probably wouldn't - you'd be getting very jerky playback as your video source is refreshing 60 times per second. You can maintain smoothness by decimating the output to 30fps, but if what DrMPEG says is true the best you can hope for with this format is 24fps or 48fps, both of which would look very very bad for your material.

And as I said in the other thread, there is no reliable or recognised playback platform for 1080p at anything higher than 30fps any way making the whole thing a fool's errand. Maintaining 1080i30 and letting the player deinterlace would work, but your best bet remains staying at 720p60.

[Seraphic-]

The Intensity and Intensity Pro both have a codec for 1080psF@25, but when I tried to feed both Xbox360/PS3 in at 1080p, where was no picture. This was just an idea, but at least I now know it won't pan out.