RealVideo 'NGV' Progress Preview 02/28/2008

[karl_lillevold]

I apologize if the screenshots in the page below load slowly. After the initial load, mouse-over switching between screenshots should be fast. I may add the screenshots to this post as well, but the mouse-over switch is good for comparisons. So for now, click below.

RealVideo 'NGV' Progress Preview 02/28/2008 (http://www.lillevold.com/ngv/02282008/)

Clip : 4 min 2 sec
Resolution: 640x272
Framerate: 23.976 fps
Average bitrate: 370 kbit/sec (480 kbps for h264+30%)

A fixed Quant was used for both codecs, and we iterated
the encodes until the target bitrates were achieved.

H.264: encoded with JM reference encoder, highest complexity settings.


The original clip can not be made available, and we can not
describe further technical details at this time. We
understand that this comparison can not be judged as a
serious codec comparison since we can not offer H.264
reproducibility or the bitstreams. This may be made
available a later stage in the development, but with
different source content. As codec engineers, we tried our
best to make fair comparisons of our work so far. These
comparisons were not made for doom9, but when we had them
available anyway, we wanted to show you that we are still
working on RealVideo, and we hope for your understanding in
this respect.

We compared around 20 different clips, showing similar
differences.

I may post additional screenshots (HD and SD).

-RealNetworks Codec Group 02/28/2008

[Sirber]

IMO the NGV shot looks almost like the original leaving H264 behind!

Keep up the excellent work!! :D

[jeffy]

Thank you, looks nice :)

[Inventive Software]

Looks good, but what's the speed like? ;)

[guada2]

Finally.... :)
Test very promising..

but what's the speed like?
???

[Sirber]

???
He ment encoding speed ;)

[CruNcher]

@karl_lillevold
yeah the details are better keeped on this 1 frame but other h.264 implementation are powerfull now (also psychovisual wise) so we'll see how the end result looks like in motion when it's availabe btw NGV == Next Generation Video? :)

tough sad that it's still not possible to keep the grain @ that bitrate yet ;) *joke*

[Dark Shikari]

Rule 1 of codec comparisons: if you are comparing your codec to the JM, your codec sucks, your comparison sucks, or both.

x264 can beat the JM by a similar margin when using appropriate psyopts (AQ) and deadzone settings.

Additionally, by the looks of things, they seem to be using the equivalent of a CQM given the intentional decimation of high frequency detail.

Going by the ringing on the edges as compared to JM, its highly probable they have AQ or a similar equivalent algorithm (or are using larger DCTs). Again, since JM doesn't have AQ, this is a bad comparison.

[*.mp4 guy]

Rule 1 of codec comparisons: if you are comparing your codec to the JM, your codec sucks, your comparison sucks, or both.

x264 can beat the JM by a similar margin when using appropriate psyopts (AQ) and deadzone settings.

Additionally, by the looks of things, they seem to be using the equivalent of a CQM given the intentional decimation of high frequency detail.

Going by the ringing on the edges as compared to JM, its highly probable they have AQ or a similar equivalent algorithm (or are using larger DCTs). Again, since JM doesn't have AQ, this is a bad comparison.

They acknowledged that the comparison is seriously flawed on the page, I can understand being upset if this was presented as an unbiased, representative comparison, but it wasn't.

It looks like it will be competetive with modern mpeg4-avc codecs, but it really is too soon to say.

[bond]

good to hear that real is still alive :)

is ngv backwards compatible to rv9/10?

[karl_lillevold]

@bond: There will be no backwards compatibility. The implementation and algorithms are entirely new. Among other things, we have focused on preserving texture.

@*.mp4 guy: Thanks for understanding.

@Dark Shikari: I will get the latest x.264 build, learn its advanced options as best I can and run some of the same clips. I will not post any x.264 screenshots, since we do not have time to get into a long discussion about what is the best possible combination of x.264 options for every clip and bitrate. If you do have any setting advice for x.264 to contribute though, that would be most appreciated.

@CruNcher, jeffy, guada2, Sirber, Inventive Software: Thanks. The encoding speed of an optimized encoder is not yet known.

[dimzon]

good to hear that real is still alive
Why? Does anybody need proprietary closed source codec?
We already have x264, Snow and Dirac!

[karl_lillevold]

We have not yet decided on the availability of source code for NGV. Please do not automatically assume that it will proprietary closed source. There are many options available.

[IgorC]

Karl, can you bring some lights on specifications?
I don't pretend for full information but some information about techs are welcomed. Is it DCT,wavelet based codec or something else, some kind of deblock filter, intelligent inloop etc?

[dimzon]

We have not yet decided on the availability of source code for NGV. Please do not automatically assume that it will proprietary closed source. There are many options available.
Don't take me wrong but all your codecs before is closed source. Ever your helixcommunity license disallow to use your code in GPL projects. This make you codec unapplicable for long-term video backup (follow last link in my signature)...

[Atak_Snajpera]

Another question. Why should I use RealVideo if I have H.264 (x264 with AQ) supported by iPOD, PSP ,PS3 , BluRay players , Flash ? Honestly I see no future for NGV.

[nm]

Agreed. NGV would be much more interesting if it was completely royalty-free, had open specs and efficient open-source (LGPL or BSD-licensed) encoder and decoder implementations (hint, hint ;)). Otherwise it would have to be a H.264 codec or much better than current H.264 implementations.

[shon3i]

Another question. Why should I use RealVideo if I have H.264 (x264 with AQ) supported by iPOD, PSP ,PS3 , BluRay players , Flash ? Honestly I see no future for NGV.
I totaly agree with you, but why not if produce better quality at same bitrate. I think most ppl's including me, put quailty on 1st place than compatability.

[karl_lillevold]

We appreciate everyone's input. Like I said, there are many options available. This includes an open standard, like the route Microsoft chose for VC-1, but this has not been decided.

[Sharktooth]

any info on encoding/decoding complexity?
also the pics were encoded with h.264 reference encoder. what about some screens from some implementations of h.264 (x264, mainconcept, etc...)?

[shashaanktulsyan]

I am happy that real is making realvideo 11, having great expectations with NGV

[karl_lillevold]

Sharktooth: I will have to leave answering this for now. Maybe I will have time to look into it, but please see this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1121777#post1121777) regarding my future contributions to NGV.

Karl.

[Sharktooth]

yup i read it. my request was made before you informed us you were moving to another project.

[karl_lillevold]

Yep, that's true. I am sorry I did not find time while I was on the project :(

[Sharktooth]

not a problem, really :)

[3NC0D3_Y0_A$$]

great stuff. I cant wait till this gets implemented in th mainstream. Quality is awesome for such a low bitrate.
Its a pity the bbc have stopped using realplayer for video clips (apart from news 24), if they implemented this new realvideo codec in the future, their videos would look great.