AVS + VOB + D2V + Upres = ?

[Ikasu]

The title probably got you a bit confused, but I have so many damn questions going through my mind I thought it would be the best one =P.

Ok, here goes...First off, I've used Avisynth in the past, but never really got into complex coding scripts. So bare with me...

ATM, I'm running a total of 24 dvd's which I plan to edit through DGIndex for d2v files, making the avisynth files with a simple DGDecode.dll insert (planning to edit directly into premiere). But I'm curious to figure out what the heck to do about the source when interlacing is concerned. Even though the VOB's are interlaced, when I run them through to a D2V and DGDecode, the video plays smoothly without any interlacing. Unfortunately I can't load the file into gspot or anything to find if the video is still interlaced or not. Does running VOB's through a D2V + DGDecode AVS script remove the interlacing? Such as an automatic function which does it for me? Having trouble figuring out if it is indeed the case. I was reading up on the documentation regarding it and it seems it does...But I want to make sure since I fully didn't understand it.

Second question, I eventually plan to upres these files to HD standard, and clean them up in terms of quality for sharpening and grain/noise removal. What should I be looking at here? I ran a lancos4 resize just to test it, when I do the video begins to show interlacing lines on certain segments. What route should I be taking here? Also trying to figure out if I should edit in a HD resolution, or edit in the default DVD 720x480 res and upres when the project is complete (I'm on a 3.2 prescott, so cpu resources might be an issue for tons of AVS commands). The source is anime, so that should make this easier for cleanup/grain removal.

I've been reading around with all this bobbing methods and TDeint (Just downloaded it). Not sure what I should do regarding upres. I also attempted to run Tdeint with a basic same rate deinterlacing, and it actually made certain segments look interlaced...So that's leading me to believe that the d2v + dgdecode avs combo auto de-interlaces for me. But any info regarding this would be of great help.

Last question, what deinterlacing method should I be going for if I have to do it manually? I'm looking for a combination to offer the best possible quality. Not sure regarding this bobbing and doubling frame rate method, considering I still need to have this file finished at 29.97. Also, any recommendation regarding video cleanup? I'll be dealing with grain/noise removal, and sharpening. Any advice would help, sorry for posting such a long message that has probably been covered many times over, gave a search via google and forum, but all the info was literally going in one ear and coming out the other. >_<.

:thanks:, looking forward to your replies.

edit-

BTW, I've noticed the anime cartoon noise res removal thread, but curious if there are any other solutions I should also look into.

[Adub]

As to your first question, if you know that the vobs are "interlaced" as you say, you probably mean telecined, judging as you are dealing with DVD's directly. If you are running them through DGindex and the resulting files play without interlacing artifacts, it may be that you have the "Force Film" option enabled in DGIndex's options. Check to see if this is the case.

Also, it may be that you are playing the files in a video player that always uses a deinterlacer by default. How are you previewing the script? I recommend using Media Player Classic.

As to resizing. Usually it is not recommended to resize content upwards, but if you really want to, you can. The general rule of thumb is to resize last. Meaning do all of your filtering (and deinterlacing/Inverse telecining) first and then resize.

Lanczos4resize is a good start, but you may want to try Spline36resize or BlackmanResize. Also, you could look into HybridFupp. It uses adaptive algorithms to resize so that it looks better to the human eye.

As to editing in HD or regular, I would recommend edit in the normal resolution (it will be faster), and then upscale after you are finished (if you still have your heart set on upscaling).

Now, you ask a lot of heavy questions, and none are really easy to answer. For now, just make sure you understand the difference between interlaced and telecined.

[neuron2]

I suggest that you embark on a one-month learning process where you learn about basic video and processing, before you start encoding. The documentation and guides answer all your questions, but you are currently unable to understand it.

[Ikasu]

When it comes to encoding, I know what I'm doing, Whether it be MEGUI x264 encodes, or divx/xvid. I just haven't really messed with AVIsynth to this much of a degree. I do know the difference between Teleclined and deinterlaced. I use to inverse telecline my dvd rips when editing but noticed it would make them jumpy during panning scenes when it was brought down to 23.97 FPS. These source files are reporting 29.97 via gspot and dgindex...So I decided to just go that route.

For the field operation, I'm using honored pulldown flags, and not forced film. I also use Media Player Classic exclusively (<3 MPC and FFDShow ^_^).

So what do you think regarding the interlaced situation? Cause I am running it through MPC...But I don't see any interlacing...But under RARE occurrences...and I'm talking about less than a minute out of 90-120 minutes of footage, I'll see interlace lines.

[neuron2]

I use to inverse telecline my dvd rips when editing but noticed it would make them jumpy during panning scenes when it was brought down to 23.97 FPS. But if you actually knew what you were doing, you would know that doing proper IVTC on a correct 3:2 pulled down stream cannot cause jumpiness. You would have found out why it was happening and adjusted your processing for that video, and not just thrown out the IVTC baby with the bathwater.

These source files are reporting 29.97 via gspot and dgindex...So I decided to just go that route. You're going to deinterlace good telecined video because Gspot says it's 29.97fps?! :) :) :)

Now you're asking for our advice about how to process 24 different DVDs, as if the same recipe applies to each one!

If you are having a problem with a stream, then post a link to an unprocessed stream sample. Then we can give you useful advice, and you will probably learn something.

[Ikasu]

I'm not saying what you guys are saying is wrong...no way..Let me elaborate a little.

Regarding the footage, all of them will be the same, they are all from the same series, it's all from the same anime, just different volumes, and all use the same video settings. Regarding the IVTC issue, If I go through this footage frame by frame, there is a change in each frame, so therefore it would genuinely be 29.97 fps since there are no duplicate frames. Would this be correct? This is why I'm stating I believe it truly is 29.97 frames interlaced, and doesn't need to be IVTC'ed. Or is this a flawed way of thinking? This is the reason I've been staying away from IVTC.

Regarding a sample, do you want me to slice off a piece of the VOB for you guys? or would you prefer something else?

[neuron2]

Regarding the IVTC issue, If I go through this footage frame by frame, there is a change in each frame, so therefore it would genuinely be 29.97 fps since there are no duplicate frames. You are confused. It is changes between fields that are important. For example, a pure progressive (not pulled-down) stream can show a new picture every frame, but that doesn't make it interlaced!

Or is this a flawed way of thinking? Yes, see above.

Regarding a sample, do you want me to slice off a piece of the VOB for you guys? Yes. Or use DGIndex to demux an M2V sample. Make sure the segment has good motion.

[Ikasu]

Hmmm interesting, It does show a completely new frame each time though with unseen footage prior.

Of course a scene with lots of motion ^.^....Here you go. a M2V demuxed. It seriously looks progressive to me, but everything reports it as interlaced with top field first. Some segments in other portions of the vob's show interlace lines (talking about less than 1 minute worth out of 90 minutes of footage), although they are VERY few.....So I really don't get what's going on with this sucker.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KXA5KAL7

There you go ^_^

Little over 15 megs, 19 seconds worth.

[neuron2]

everything reports it as interlaced with top field first. That just means it was encoded as interlaced. It says nothing about the actual *content* of the video. You don't appear to understand that distinction.

True interlaced video has a new picture every FIELD, not every frame.

Some segments in other portions of the vob's show interlace lines (talking about less than 1 minute worth out of 90 minutes of footage), although they are VERY few.....So I really don't get what's going on with this sucker. Then why didn't you post one of those???

The clip you posted is simple 29.97fps progressive video. You don't have to IVTC it or deinterlace it. You could do this, just in case the field phase changes:

Telecide()

That will keep the fields aligned and clean up any combed frames that slip through.

If you do IVTC on this, it WILL get jerky, but that's because the clip is not telecined, not because there is anything wrong with IVTC. So don't put Decimate() after Telecide() for this kind of video.

If you have a problematic clip, post that!

[Ikasu]

Telecide() fixed the issue. There were some very small scenes that were indeed interlaced, and you could easily see the fields. But those scenes only account for around 30 seconds or so out of the full 90 minute dvd's. Probably why it was encoded interlace. They won't even be used in my project, but it was just annoying trying to figure out why they'd mix interlaced and progressive footage. Considering how verstaile Avisynth is, there probably is a way (and you guys probably know it =P) to manually set starting and end points for specific deinterlacing tasks, but considering how minor the amount is, no need.

Regarding the interlace issue, I get what you mean now regarding the content of the video. I was just misrepresenting one segment about interlaced. I was under the impression that if you did indeed encode a progressive format to a interlace setting, that it would actually do so, creating the files and alternating lines. But you're stating that's not the case...I getcha now.

Well, at least that sums up that part...Telecide did fix the issues, but some other scenes ended up having the opposite effect, jerkiness...lol. But I can live with that, I won't be encoding these as is and storing them anyways, just using them as a video editing sources for a project I'm making. If I need a specific scene that's interlaced, I can just run telecide and output a huffyuv to use.

Merlin: Thanks so much for those resizing filters. I just ran a test run with spline 36 and it looks fantastic. Was able to upsize from 720x480 to 960x720 very nicely with nearly no quality loss (Which would most likely be due to animes blocked colors =P). Indeed fantastic, going to test out the blackmanresize and the hybridfupp now. ^.^

[Adub]

No problem. I love resizers and there internal mathematics. Very cool stuff.

I take it you are making an AMV. I am interested in watching the finished project when you are done.

As to applying any filter, or deinterlacer, on certain sections of video, look into the Trim() function and ApplyRange. (http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/ApplyRange)

[Ikasu]

Sure no sweat ^_^, I'll send you a link to it when it's done. I'm actually not planning on uploading it except for a few select people. I sent my stuff back to many AMV contests for conventions back in the day. Till this day, I've never not made it to the finals...Won a few too ^_^.....Been out of the AMV loop for around 7 years. So I plan to make a massive comeback and try to win all the categories at AX 2009 =P...LOL. A very hard feat, but my heads been bursting with so many idea's I've been going crazy ^_^.

[Ikasu]

Hmmm...Ouch.

Just ran into an issue. I'm running 2 different series in a sense. The first series is a gundam series, the second is the sequel to it. But the first which we've found out is a progressive 29.97 source. The second series is actually a film based source at 23.97 interlaced. So I ran a forced film mode via dgindex and got a much smoother playing 23.97 (3:2 pulldown). It can easily be seen via panning comparisons between a honor pull down d2v and the forced film d2v. But the issue is the frame rate, I will be editing via premiere pro in a 29.97 environment. I tried running ConvertFPS and it did the job perfectly, it got ever smoother, but the frame blurring is something that will for sure cause issues with my masking.

Any other possible solutions I can take? I also attempted to just leave the honor pull down method with a Telecide() command for the interlacing to see the difference if I just left it at 29.97. It fixed the interlacing obviously, but it wasn't as smooth as the 23.97 footage which is the sequel series correct frame rate.

Any other ideas? Or am I forced to live with one or the other. I could run AssumeFPS...But that would end up speeding up the video >_<....damnit!...lol..

[neuron2]

If I need a specific scene that's interlaced, I can just run telecide and output a huffyuv to use. Telecide() is NOT the right tool for interlaced video.

[foxyshadis]

Try 120 fps (119.88). If you want you can still use tivtc vfr to return to the original framerates later.

[Blue_MiSfit]

It's sounding like VFR would be a good fit indeed, since you're mixing 29.97 NTSC, and FILM.

So, foxyshadis, you're suggesting making a 120fps stream, editing this on his NLE (hopefully it supports this), and then encoding the output with VFR?

~MiSfit

[Ikasu]

I don't even think premiere would be capable of doing that. So it wouldn't be an option to use a VFR. 60 FPS would be doable for premiere though...But I really don't want to edit in that environment.

Plus, I wouldn't be able to just make MP4 versions for Variable frame rates, would Xvid also be capable of VFR? I don't think it does.

Unless there's some other method I don't know of (which I would glady like to hear), I don't see how it would work considering the applications/codecs for editing/distribution.

Kinda screwed, unless I just say screw it, and de-interlace the 29.97 teleclined footage instead of IVTC'ing it. That way all the footage is 29.97...but the second series will obviously be slightly jumpy. =(...Or I could just AssumeFPS on the sucker...and deal with a slightly faster clip, or ConvertFPS and deal with a little frame blending.

[Blue_MiSfit]

Ahh the horrible masochistic practice of mixing video types...

Best of luck...

~MiSfit