Windowless, Renderless, VMR, Overlay - what do they mean?

[bur]

I couldn't find any not-to-detailed yet not-to-shallow explanation of these output methods.

From the name I guess Overlay doesn't use any filters but the player directly adds its output to the screen, overlaying any content. While from what I read VMR sort of hands the output over to Windows using DirectX (?).

But what means renderless and windowless? And from the MPC tooltips it sounds like VMR9 is worse than 7 because it never uses Overlay (how does VMR7 determine when to use Overlay anyway?), is that true?

Can anyone explain the differences and advantages of the different output methods?


Or, if this can't be explained in a few paragraphs, what output should I use on a 1680x1050 DVI-connected TFT? So far I'm using Overlay as standard and VMR7 if the movie has soft subtitles.

[Shinigami-Sama]

I'm not to clear on the specifics as well
but

VRM9 is better than VRM 7

'overlay' is just a plain hardware overlay, does some colour/gamma stuff and drops it on the display

as far as I can tell the difference between 'windowed' and 'renderless' is that one uses hardware(renderless) and one uses pure software(windowed)

VRM * uses directX to communicate with the hardware, so it can use the shaders and such to manipulate the video

haali has some advanced resizers and such

EVR I"m not sure on

[Casimir666]

All renderers came out with different release of Windows or DirectX :
- Video renderer : it's the oldest one (release in 1996) and it use Gdi to display video. Unless you like blury image i didn't recommend it ;-)

- Overlay mixer : release with DX6, it was design for DVD playback because it added the possibility of close caption. Video is displayed using DirectDraw. This renderer also support hardware acceleration (DXVA)

- VMR7 : display the video using DirectX 7. In windowed mode all rendering in done by Microsoft filter, in renderless mode "Media Player Classic" receive the uncompressed video, add the subtitle, and then display the image. That's the reason why only renderless support internal close captionning.

- VMR9 : use DirectX9 to display video, same difference for windowed and renderless

- EVR : newest renderer arrived with Windows Vista, it still using DirectX9 (no no it didn't use DX10 as some poeple think). The "EVR Custom" mode is the equivalent of the renderless for VMR.

Now differences between all this : image processing is slighly different between all of them. Now try it and keep the one with better image in you opinion ;-)

My preference go to VMR9 and EVR. Image quality between then is really really close.

[bur]

Rather embarrssingly, I found out why there where little hits for my search ... it's windowed, not windowless. :rolleyes:

You said Overlay Mixer was introduced for the possibility to add closed captions. According to MPC external subtitles only work with VMR renderless, so that's not a general flaw of Overlay but due to MPC?

Thanks for the explanations, that made things a lot clearer.

[Casimir666]

You said Overlay Mixer was introduced for the possibility to add closed captions.

I was talking of DVD close caption only : DVD navigator can send subtitle to overlay who put it on video (this have nothing to do with mpc).

Now for internal mpc subtitling, you are right it works only with renderless because in this mode mpc "see" the video sample in memory, so he can add text (or pixel shader or OSD), before video appears on screen.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

If you install "Haali Media Splitter" on your System, you'll have another renderer to choose:
Haali's Video Renderer

The difference between VMR9 and Haali is that Haali is using Pixel Shader 2.0 and BiCubic resizing, instead of BiLinear resizing.
Also the "sharpness" is adjustable in Haali's Splitter. So far, this one is giving me the most pleasing results :)

[fastplayer]

Or, if this can't be explained in a few paragraphs, what output should I use on a 1680x1050 DVI-connected TFT? So far I'm using Overlay as standard and VMR7 if the movie has soft subtitles.
I'm outputting as well on a TFT and prefer the default XP renderer (VMR7 windowed).
VMR9 outputs a way too bright picture that I can't properly adjust to normal levels and the additional CPU load pretty much kills my A64 3500...
The only renderer that on my setup actually improves IQ (more vivid colors, better resize), is Haali's renderer but at the expense of CPU. It adds another 10% load which is a bit too much for my still-single-core CPU especially on high-bitrate 720p videos. And the IQ difference is only noticeable when I do a side-by-side screenshot comparison. Since I prefer my movies in 24fps, VMR7 has to do the job :D

[Shinigami-Sama]

I'm outputting as well on a TFT and prefer the default XP renderer (VMR7 windowed).
VMR9 outputs a way too bright picture that I can't properly adjust to normal levels and the additional CPU load pretty much kills my A64 3500...
The only renderer that on my setup actually improves IQ (more vivid colors, better resize), is Haali's renderer but at the expense of CPU. It adds another 10% load which is a bit too much for my still-single-core CPU especially on high-bitrate 720p videos. And the IQ difference is only noticeable when I do a side-by-side screenshot comparison. Since I prefer my movies in 24fps, VMR7 has to do the job :D

IIRC thats because VRM 7 doesn't scale PC->TV(->PC) levels (16-266?)->(0-256), not to sure though

also
I just switched to EVR custom 'cause I was suddenly having horrible tearing problems with haali and VRM9, as well as haali just about making 720p choke and stutter with its 5-40%(avg 20%) increase in CPU useage over VRM9
guess that means its time for me to reinstall

[JohnnyMalaria]

There is windowless (since there is windowed). This is full screen. The display mode is switched and the entire display is used by the video. This is different - and faster - than creating a window the size of the display and without a caption, border etc.

Up to but not including Vista, all video rendering (whether directly by the hardware or GDI) was done in the so-called 2D pipeline. Generally, this means DirectDraw.

With Vista, DirectDraw is deprecated and all graphics are done in the 3D pipeline. DirectDraw is still there to support legacy applications but often such applications will cause Vista to switch from the 3D method (most people experience this as Aero) to an XP/W2K type display.

[Mangix]

i apologize for bringing this three-week thread back to life but i was just curious. when you use overlay, how is the video resized when you go to fullscreen. if nearest neighbor used, bilinear, or what?

[Shinigami-Sama]

it'd actually be nice to get a sticky about renderers and what the differences between them are >.>

[KoD]

It'd be actually nice to have someone who really knows write something about it instead of everyone's guestimates and cherry-picks.

[fastplayer]

http://www.inmatrix.com/zplayer/highlights/vidrender.shtml

[Mangix]

all that really tells me is that the graphics card does the "stretching". but i don't know how it "stretches"

[Shinigami-Sama]

all that really tells me is that the graphics card does the "stretching". but i don't know how it "stretches"

with its pixel shaders
usually bilinear

[CruNcher]

Especialy on windows it's very important not to forget the YV12 (Colorspace) renderer (alot of software want's to install their own ofcourse better version of a Colorspace Renderer, and most users wont realize this ever, because it is not part of the DirectShow Chain but comes before it, tough it can also be part of the DirectShow chain and then it becomes even more problematic see Elecards Colorspace Converter for example that want's into the Chain everytime it's created) that is between all of this and also can couse trouble with upsampleing problems and bad quality also brightness differences and slowdowns.
Before something gets on the screen in Windows it goes throug alot of Software stuff and in each stage of this (chain) problems can happen that can change the actuall result for every Windows user independently.
It's a major mistake of many Windows users just too look @ the Player and Driver side of things it's much more complex than just that :D
Thats also one of they Key issues most professionals use Mac as the Video and DTP Platform as such things happening there as users report it so many times here for Windows are almost impossible if you decide for a look and feel for your stuff on the Mac you can be sure it looks exactly the same on any Mac thats a big big Bonus imho compared to Windows as a Media Platform with it's overly complex (and buggy) Software Chain(only the output device decides the look and feel of footage with a Mac).

And this is especialy a major issue with Lossy Codecs as they are designed from the groundup to hide encoding artefacts in regions the human eye can't see under a given Setup if you now change this suddenly all the problems become visible and you think it looks bad, but in reality it only looks bad because you are not correctly calibrated. So the thing you see and the thing the Creator of it saw aren't the same anymore and you gonna hate the result but in reallity it's your fault :D

[Mangix]

@cruncher. does this show up anywhere? like let's say graphedit?

[CruNcher]

Nope the colorspace renderer only gets registered in the registry and then will allways be used for any raw stream that gets decoded in that colorspace no colorspace renderer registered would have the effect that nothing would get renderered (either in DirectShow or VFW) for example without it no Avisynth preview would be possible in a Windows Player.

Colorspace renderer for YV12 that i know of can be
FFdshow, Helix YV12 I420 renderer, XviD and DivX or Microsofts Standard YV12 Renderer if it wasn't changed by one of the others. Tough they are all slightly different in their behaviour and speed (and im not sure that they are all bug free or change the final result you see in different VMR render Modes). Nvidia and Ati for sure do all their driver work and Video testing with the Microsoft Standard Renderer.

[fastplayer]

Does anybody know what the default renderer is in XP x64?

[rt87]

will VMR use DirectDraw or Direct3D?

[fastplayer]

will VMR use DirectDraw or Direct3D?
VMR7 uses DirectDraw 7, VMR9 Direct3D 9:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms787872(VS.85).aspx

[JohnnyMalaria]

Does anybody know what the default renderer is in XP x64?

VMR7.

[fastplayer]

VMR7.
Thanks!
I wasn't sure if the default XP renderer applies to the XP x64 as well. The documentation isn't clear enough...

[rt87]

VMR7 uses DirectDraw 7, VMR9 Direct3D 9:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms787872(VS.85).aspx:thanks:

then what about EVR in XP?

[kutjong]

:thanks:

then what about EVR in XP?
AFAIK, EVR uses DX9.

[trex]

Hi,

I just freshly installed windows Vista to build a new media PC.

Regarding those renderers, I have another question.
I read, that the new EVR renderer will sync itself to the monitor.
In my case, the monitor is a plasma screen from panasonic only accepting 50hz and 60hz vertical frequency input.
When I play back 24p material, I will get heavy tearing/stuttering using the overlay renderer.
I quickly tested all other renderers, but no luck.
Is there a renderer, that can take care of this?
I was hoping that EVR will do this for me.

Any help is highly appreciated.

trex

[Leak]

Any help is highly appreciated.
You could use ReClock to make your 24p movies play at 25 FPS and resample the audio accordingly. No renderer by itself is going to be able to play 24 FPS material at 50Hz without stuttering.

[trex]

Hi Leak, thanks for that answer.
I was somehow suspecting that Reclock was the only possibility.
Unfortunatly, Reclock does not support the new renderers and now gives me strange error messages with Vista I did not have before with XP.

I guess, I will need to buy a new TV at some point....

Cheers, trex