CCE progressive frame flag

[ariga]

I just downloaded the CCE SP2 Trial and tried encoding a 25fps PAL source as progressive. The resulting mpv file is reported as "Interlaced" in GSpot. Is it a restriction of the trial version or a bug? :confused:

[manono]

GSpot is wrong (or can be wrong). Open the MPV in DGIndex and run the Preview (File->Preview) if you're trying to find out if the progressive frame flag was really set.

[ariga]

I opened the mpv in ReStream and it shows that CCE doesn't set the "Progressive sequence" flag in the sequence extension. Only the "Frametype progressive" flag in the Picture Coding Extension is set.

Whereas HC sets both the flags when encoding in progressive mode.

So, which of these flags is used by the player to determine the stream type?

OT: Gspot obviously uses the Sequence Extension to determine if the mpv is progressive v/s interlaced. However, when clicking on the Field info overlay in the GOP display, nothing is shown - indicating it's progressive(?)

OT++: Mediainfo shows completely wrong info.

[manono]

You asked about the progressive frame flag. I told you one way to find out. Did you check in DGIndex? You can also check using Bitrate Viewer, or, as you found out, ReStream. Of course a DVD Player, a flag-reading one anyway, gets the information from the presence or absence of the progressive frame flag.

Gspot obviously uses the Sequence Extension to determine if the mpv is progressive v/s interlaced.

If it does, it's a pretty big mistake, I think, since neither of the 2 retail DVDs I have on the hard drive, both with progressively encoded video, have the progressive sequence flag set. Maybe there are some differences between NTSC (me) and PAL (you) whether or not it's OK to even set the progressive sequence flag.

[ariga]

You asked about the progressive frame flag.
Not exactly that. I didn't even know about the flags. Just that when comparing streams generate by HC v/s CCE I stumbled upon this difference :)

Well, after posting I dug deeper into the CCE FAQs and found some post on ReStream and used it to analyse the stream. I guess DGIndex will detect it correctly, yet to test.
Maybe there are some differences between NTSC (me) and PAL (you) whether or not it's OK to even set the progressive sequence flag.
Wish someone could shed some light on this.
Thanks.

[kolak]

I think both flags should be set and this is CCE bug.
To correct that use ReStream (better playback compatibility).

Andrew

[vinujan]

I think i have a similar problem.

I'm trying to ivtc my Progressive (interlaced) source

I'm using CCE SP2 as well. I'm trying to get 720 x 480 @ 25 fps. So that i can do a DGPulldown and bring it back to 29.97 fps. to be later used with Muxman.

I read that i have to turn off DvD compliance with CCE. Can anyone help by doing this?

Currently i'm getting '0files accepted, 1 rejected) with Muxman.

:thanks::thanks:

My script:

DGDecode_mpeg2source("C:\Deinterlace\Sample.d2v",info=3)

ColorMatrix(mode="Rec.601->Rec.709", interlaced=false)

Load_Stdcall_plugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\yadif.dll")
Import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Cdeblend.avs")

ord = last.getparity() ? 1 : 0
Yadif ( mode=1, order=1)
Cdeblend(omode=2, mthresh=0.3)
Blendbob()

loadCplugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\SmartDecimate.dll")

SmartDecimate(2500, 5994)

crop( 0, 60, 0, -58)

Import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\yvlevels.avs")
levelS(0,1.1,255,0,255).Tweak(hue=1,sat=1.2,cont=1.1,bright=-1,coring=false)

LimitedSharpenFaster(ss_x=1.3,ss_y=1.3,Smode=4,strength=90,overshoot=2)

AddBorders(0,60,0,58)

Lanczos4Resize(720,480)

ConvertToYUY2( interlaced=false)

[manono]

I think both flags should be set and this is CCE bug.
I don't, not for NTSC anyway. The one time I set it, as an experiment when applying 3:2 pulldown, it made my movie play jerky:

Progressive Sequence: If set to 1 all frames in the video are progressive, if set to 0 both progressive and interlaced frames can appear in the video. See ISO/IEC 13818-2. This option is only valid for MPEG-2.

http://www.merging.com/vcube/Pages/Help/Advanced_Video_Settings.html

Since NTSC film with 3:2 pulldown applied outputs 29.97fps interlaced, then not all frames are progressive. It could be different for PAL, but it looks to me like it's not important that it be set for PAL, and shouldn't be set when (as is common with PAL retail DVDs) the PAL video is encoded as interlaced. That's why I asked the question earlier.

Edit later: I forgot that I had 2 PAL retail DVDs on the hard drive. Both have a progressive source encoded as interlaced, as is usually the case with movies on PAL DVD, and neither has the Progressive Sequence Extension set. I have about half a dozen retail NTSC DVDs on the hard drive, several of which are encoded progressively, and none have it set. I don't know that I've ever seen it set on any retail DVD, PAL or NTSC, although, admittedly, I haven't been looking very hard.

[neuron2]

@vinujan

Do not cross-post your problem to multiple forums and threads! I am deleting your other one now to which I already responded. Read and follow the forum rules.

This is what I said in the cross-post:

That makes no sense. If it is progressive it is not interlaced. And why would you IVTC something so you can turn around and telecine it back for DVD authoring?

In fact, your whole post is so confused that I am just going to ask you to post a link to an unprocessed source sample, so that we can see what you have and how to treat it.

[vinujan]

@vinujan

Do not cross-post your problem to multiple forums and threads! I am deleting your other one now to which I already responded. Read and follow the forum rules.

This is what I said in the cross-post:

That makes no sense. If it is progressive it is not interlaced. And why would you IVTC something so you can turn around and telecine it back for DVD authoring.

In fact, your whole post is so confused that I am just going to ask you to post a link to an unprocessed source sample, so that we can see what you have and how to treat it.

Sorrry about that!!!

[neuron2]

So where's the requested source sample link? Or have you abandoned the problem?

[vinujan]

That makes no sense. If it is progressive it is not interlaced. And why would you IVTC something so you can turn around and telecine it back for DVD authoring.

In fact, your whole post is so confused that I am just going to ask you to post a link to an unprocessed source sample, so that we can see what you have and how to treat it.

Sample: http://rapidshare.com/files/66856880/Sample.vob
* interlaced

Sample: http://rapidshare.com/files/66857900/Sample.vob.html
* fast scene

btw. Thank you so much for responding!

:thanks::thanks:

Its labeled progressive on the DVD Cover. but it actually is interlaced.

I'm trying to deblend this to 25fps. & then bring it back to 29.97fps to reauthor it.

my problem is that i can't get CCE to resize 720 x 480 @ 25 fps.

[vinujan]

So where's the requested source sample link? Or have you abandoned the problem?

sorry for the delay!

i was uploading the sample

[neuron2]

Add your file. Then right click on it and hit edit. You get the Encoder setting dialog. In the Mode groupbox, uncheck "for DVD".

[vinujan]

Add your file. Then right click on it and hit edit. You get the Encoder setting dialog. In the Mode groupbox, uncheck "for DVD".

:eek: Thank you so much!!!!

omg. i was scavenging google & doom9 for hours on end.

THANKYOU!!!!!!!

:thanks::thanks::thanks::thanks::thanks:

[vinujan]

Also wanted to know what your comments are on the source with regards to Deinterlacing

I'm not sure if i should use Force Film or IVTC.

[neuron2]

I downloaded and inspected the fast scene. It's clean soft telecine. I didn't see any blending. There is motion blur but that is not the same. You can just do Force Film in DGIndex but it won't get you to 25fps, nor should you try. You can author with this directly. But hey it is already a DVD, what are you trying to do and why?

Force Film is a form of IVTC.

[vinujan]

I downloaded and inspected the fast scene. It's clean soft telecine. I didn't see any blending. There is motion blur but that is not the same. You can just do Force Film in DGIndex but it won't get you to 25fps, nor should you try. You can author with this directly. But hey it is already a DVD, what are you trying to do and why?

I'm basically trying my hand @ CCE & manually reauthoring a DVD.

I'm doing this out of sheer interest after visiting doom9 a month back

what really got me reading were the filters @avisynth usage .

Edit: IVTC was suggested by a friend of mine, he said it would have better results. Thus, i took it upon myself to go his route.

So nothing really needs to be done to the source?

[neuron2]

That DVD is the best looking Indian DVD I have ever seen. Don't mess it up. A straight copy is all you need.

Save your efforts for the multitude of crappy ones out there. :)

[vinujan]

That DVD is the best looking Indian DVD I have ever seen. Don't mess it up. A straight copy is all you need.

Save your efforts for the multitude of crappy ones out there. :)

okay. i'll try doing a straight copy instead.

Once again, thank you so much for your time. i really appreciate it

:thanks:

[neuron2]

IVTC was suggested by a friend of mine, he said it would have better results. Thus, i took it upon myself to go his route. If you intended to transcode to a progressive format for display on the PC, then you would do IVTC. But for making an NTSC DVD you'd just have to add the telecine back, so there is no gain, unless you need to make corrections on the IVTC'ed progressive source. But as I said, the DVD is so clean there's really nothing to correct. Just do ISO copy.

[kolak]

I don't, not for NTSC anyway. The one time I set it, as an experiment when applying 3:2 pulldown, it made my movie play jerky:

Progressive Sequence: If set to 1 all frames in the video are progressive, if set to 0 both progressive and interlaced frames can appear in the video. See ISO/IEC 13818-2. This option is only valid for MPEG-2.

http://www.merging.com/vcube/Pages/Help/Advanced_Video_Settings.html

Since NTSC film with 3:2 pulldown applied outputs 29.97fps interlaced, then not all frames are progressive. It could be different for PAL, but it looks to me like it's not important that it be set for PAL, and shouldn't be set when (as is common with PAL retail DVDs) the PAL video is encoded as interlaced. That's why I asked the question earlier.

Edit later: I forgot that I had 2 PAL retail DVDs on the hard drive. Both have a progressive source encoded as interlaced, as is usually the case with movies on PAL DVD, and neither has the Progressive Sequence Extension set. I have about half a dozen retail NTSC DVDs on the hard drive, several of which are encoded progressively, and none have it set. I don't know that I've ever seen it set on any retail DVD, PAL or NTSC, although, admittedly, I haven't been looking very hard.

Lots of the retail DVDs are encoded with CCE :)


NTSC with pulldown is a special case. CCE does that properly.

What about if you have purly progressive PAL source?

I found that some players (also PowerDVD) work better when both flags are set. CCE doesn't do that, but ProCoder does.
As I remeber Sony Vizaro encoder does that and Panasonic encoder also.

I think it's a time to use CCE support :)
I hope they will find a time to give answer since they're very busy with CC-HDe

Andrew

[manono]

Hi-
NTSC with pulldown is a special case. CCE does that properly.

What about if you have purly progressive PAL source
Encoding as PAL progressive is a special case, as almost no retail PAL DVD does that. Now, if reencoding, as you and I do, and if you're reencoding your originally interlaced PAL DVD as progressive, then maybe having that flag set might be useful. However, based on the quotation in my earlier post it's by no means required, encoding for PAL progressive without the flag is perfectly compliant, and if PowerDVD has a problem with such DVDs, I'd say it's the one with the problem and not CCE. Can you find any PAL retail DVDs at all (since you have access to more of them than I do) where the flag has been set?

[Jeffster]

For what it's worth, I just checked several (PAL) DVD's lying around that I knew were progressive, and while they have the Frametype progressive flag, none of them have the Progressive sequence flag set. (They're all DVD's from Warner Bros and Fox.)

[kolak]

Hi-

Encoding as PAL progressive is a special case, as almost no retail PAL DVD does that. Now, if reencoding, as you and I do, and if you're reencoding your originally interlaced PAL DVD as progressive, then maybe having that flag set might be useful. However, based on the quotation in my earlier post it's by no means required, encoding for PAL progressive without the flag is perfectly compliant, and if PowerDVD has a problem with such DVDs, I'd say it's the one with the problem and not CCE. Can you find any PAL retail DVDs at all (since you have access to more of them than I do) where the flag has been set?

One of the Harry Potter, Star Wars DVDs have it set to 1.

I agree with you, it is definatelly more PowerDVD bug than CCE.


Andrew

[ariga]

Source: http://www.amazon.com/Video-Demystified-Fifth-Handbook-Engineer/dp/0750683953/

Progressive sequence
1 - Indicates only progressive pictures are present.
0 - Indicates both frame and field pictures may be present, and frame pictures may be progressive or interlaced.
For the SVCD standard, this value must be 0.

Top field first
If progressive_sequence == 0, this bit indicates what field is output first by the decoder.
In a field, this bit has a value of 0.
In a frame, a 1 indicates the first field of the decoded frame is the top field. A value of 0 indicates the first field is the bottom field.
If progressive_sequence = 1, repeat_first_field = 0 and this bit is a 0, the decoder generates a progressive frame.
If progressive_sequence = 1, repeat_first_field = 1 and this bit is a 0, the decoder generates two identical progressive frames.
If progressive_sequence = 1, repeat_first_field = 1 and this bit is a 1, the decoder generates three identical progressive frames.

Progressive frame
0 - Indicates the two fields of the frame are interlaced fields, with a time interval between them.
1 - The two fields of the frame are from the same instant in time.

[dodone]

I noticed that if "Progressive sequence" is not flagged (in Restream) powerdvd try to deinterlace the mpeg blurring the video and i have to set manually "do not deinterlace" in the player options. Since this is very annoying (and I'm using cce in dvd rebuilder, so i should change in restream many mpegs), I ask again if there is any option to set in cce to make mpegs with "Progressive sequence". I both select zigzag e and "progressive frame", but it doesnt work for it.