The New Generation Of iPod

[jml_90]

Hi, I have a iPod Video 5.5G of 30GB and I'll try to buy one of the new ones. The best for me is of course iPod Touch, but I want space so i would buy the Classic. I was reading the technical specifations of it (http://www.apple.com/ipodclassic/specs.html), and it says that now accept Baseline Profile of H.264 but without any level restriction. My question is that the level of H.264 is the same like the level of compression of the video. I mean if i have a video with baseline without any level restriction it will have a better compression than one with level 3?
Also, i read that now accept optional subtitles. How can i get to mux the subtitles on the video? and in what format it has to be?
Thank You. Bye.

[Dark Shikari]

H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per second
It doesn't say it has "no level restriction." The level just refers to the maximum bitrate, and in this case, the maximum bitrate is twice that of level 1.3 but still below that of level 2.

I doubt anyone would need nearly that kind of bitrate, especially considering the device only needs 320x240 resolution given its screen size and acceptable H.264 Baseline Profile video can be made using only 200-400kbps.

[Theliel]

Its true, but depend. If you want view your videos directly in your ipod or you can connect ipod to TV for example, and the ipod output support pal/NTSC :)

on Apple specification said that now support 2.5Mb for h264? I suppose are a misprint.

[giandrea]

Its true, but depend. If you want view your videos directly in your ipod or you can connect ipod to TV for example, and the ipod output support pal/NTSC :)

on Apple specification said that now support 2.5Mb for h264? I suppose are a misprint.

I don't think it's a misprint. This are the Touch video tech specs:

H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per second, Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats;

H.264 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per second, Baseline Profile up to Level 3.0 with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats;


So I think that the new iPod can support higher bitrates and CABAC decoding. I'm going to buy one as soon as they are available around here, so I will be able to report on that. CABAC would especially be nice.

As for the 1500 kbps bitrate limit being more than sufficient, I beg to disagree. I just recently ripped the first StarWars trilogy to Low Complexity Baseline profile at 1300 kbps (to fit it on a DVD-5), and while the video is not blocky at all, sometimes, especially in high motion scenes, many details are smoothed away in a noticeable way. This is probably due to the fact that you can't use B-frames, neither CABAC (!!!), and only 1 ref frame. I used subme=6, me=umh and all partitions, but I think you can't go better while achieving a decent encoding fps.

I will try CABAC on my next encodes, but I fear that it can drain the battery much more that CAVLC.

[Sagekilla]

@giandrea, what are you viewing the video on? He was talking about the iPod specifically; A movie encoded @ 640x480 1500 kbps is more than enough for the low resolution of an iPod but probably not enough if you're upscaling it to a 1280x1024 or 1680x1050.

[Theliel]

ipods play well 2.5Mb but mpg4 SP not avc (yes, yes, AVC are mpeg4 too).
And i dont belive that support CABAC -> Baseline profile => No cabac :)

anyway 1.5MB for pal its "enought"

[jml_90]

Thanks for the answers, but the new iPods according to Apple's Website it supports the low complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile (it means that it only have 1 or 2 reference frames, in some cases more frames, and it doesn't support CABAC) up to 1,5 Mbps of bitrate. And then, it says that supports up to 2,5 Mbps of H.264 Baseline Profile up to level 3.0. So the first case is without level restriction.
My question was if the level in H.264 improves compression/quality?
Thank You. Bye.

[Dark Shikari]

Thanks for the answers, but the new iPods according to Apple's Website it supports the low complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile (it means that it only have 1 or 2 reference frames, in some cases more frames, and it doesn't support CABAC) up to 1,5 Mbps of bitrate. And then, it says that supports up to 2,5 Mbps of H.264 Baseline Profile up to level 3.0. So the first case is without level restriction.No, it isn't without level restriction, its just that the level it supports is between 1.3 and 2.0.

"Without level restriction" means the player would support any video at any bitrate.

[giandrea]

So, what is the difference between Low Complexity Baseline Profile and Baseline Profile? What does "low complexity" mean? Is it because you can only use 1 or 2 reference frames?

[Dark Shikari]

So, what is the difference between Low Complexity Baseline Profile and Baseline Profile? What does "low complexity" mean? Is it because you can only use 1 or 2 reference frames?Maybe it means no CABAC?

[Atak_Snajpera]

no deblocking + analyse none

[Theliel]

no really. Ipod 5.5G support perfectly analyses and deblocking. For 5.5G my profile work fine with a bitrate of 1000-1500 , ref 2-3, analyse p8x8,b8x8,i4x4 and filter -2,-1. Of course, without cabac. So support perfectly baseline profile. Somes videos work fine with ref 5 and mixed ref, others dont.

The next Tuesday i will have my ipod touch and i will try some others options, but i'm practically sure that the settings will be the same.

[jml_90]

I have a iPod 5.5G, i try different kind of values in x264, and this generation support H.264 Full Baseline Profile in Level 3.0 (With Deblocking and Analyse Too), and the references frames deppends of the resolution, if i encode a video with 640x480 i can use only 2 references frames but if i encode a video with 480x368 for example i can put more than 5. And a video with 320x240 support the max of the references frames allowed (16).
I don't understand why the level in the first case with 1.5 Mbps supports is between 1.3 and 2.0 and with more bitrate 2.5 supports level 3. It's illogical. I think that now iPods support Full Baseline Profile. Well i hope Theliel find the solution.
Thanks, Bye.

[DeathTheSheep]

Where did you ever get analyze none?!?!

...ugh, baseline. The bane of AVC... Now everything seems to have to be encoded in baseline to be all-compatible, which seriously cripples AVC's full potential, let me tell you...

[Adub]

jml_90

Where did you read about optional subtitles in the ipod? I thought we would have to burn them in as per usual.

[giandrea]

Maybe it means no CABAC?
I've just read on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC#Profiles) that CABAC is not allowed in Baseline profile, so it's not that.

jml_90

Where did you read about optional subtitles in the ipod? I thought we would have to burn them in as per usual.

I think the new iPods support closed captioning, but I think it is kinda different from subtitles, from a technical point of view. But then I have yet to see an MP4 file with cc, so I can't tell.

[jml_90]

Merlin7777, I was reading the technical specifations again and there is nothing about subtitles, but i swear that when i read this two weeks ago it says that accepts optional subtitles.
But the new iPods accept optional subtitles because iTunes Store is going to present new movies to download with optional subtitles. From iTunes 7.4 this option is allowed.
I'm looking in YouTube, because i was looking a video about iPod Classic two weeks ago, and they show all the options and in the video options show "Subtitles" and they touch to change "On/Off". I can't find the video. If I Find It I'll Post the URL here.
Thanks, Bye

[Ranguvar]

I'm almost positive the new iPod's support is same as the iPhone and old iPod.

That is:

MPEG-4 SP@Unrestricted <= 2.5Mb/s, <= 640x480

MPEG-4 AVC Baseline@L1.3 <=768Kb/s (they lie, support gets more and more finicky as the bitreate goes towards 768), <= 320x480

MPEG-4 AVC Baseline@L3 <=1.5Mb/s, <= 640x480, > 320x240


Those are rough.

Yeah, I wouldn't get any portable player that does not support at least AVC Main@L3. maybe if there was MPEG-4 ASP (DivX, Xvid).

I advise checking out Creative and Archos' products.

The PSP will also do AVC Main, including 3 BVOPs, and lots of other koolio stuff, up to 720x480. The new Slim will do composite and component out.

[kikker]

I'm almost positive the new iPod's support is same as the iPhone and old iPod.
That is:

MPEG-4 SP@Unrestricted <= 2.5Mb/s, <= 640x480

MPEG-4 AVC Baseline@L1.3 <=768Kb/s (they lie, support gets more and more finicky as the bitreate goes towards 768), <= 320x480

MPEG-4 AVC Baseline@L3 <=1.5Mb/s, <= 640x480, > 320x240



Doesn't line 3 above supercede line 2? I think that was an old limitation of the ipod 5.0 generation which was made obsolete by a firmware upgrade that allowed the 5.0g to be on par with the 5.5g players.

[Theliel]

no.

MPEG-4 AVC Baseline@L3 <=1.5Mb/s, <= 640x480 its only for ipod 5.5g. For older ipod, 5g, MPEG-4 AVC Baseline@L1.3 <=768Kb/s

the firmware update was for 5.5g. Prior these update, 5.5g didnt support 640*480.

[giandrea]

no.

MPEG-4 AVC Baseline@L3 <=1.5Mb/s, <= 640x480 its only for ipod 5.5g. For older ipod, 5g, MPEG-4 AVC Baseline@L1.3 <=768Kb/s

the firmware update was for 5.5g. Prior these update, 5.5g didnt support 640*480.

I too remember that old 5.0g iPods where updated to support 640x480 AVC video. I might be wrong, but I'm pretty much confident they can support it.

[kikker]

no.

MPEG-4 AVC Baseline@L3 <=1.5Mb/s, <= 640x480 its only for ipod 5.5g. For older ipod, 5g, MPEG-4 AVC Baseline@L1.3 <=768Kb/s

the firmware update was for 5.5g. Prior these update, 5.5g didnt support 640*480.

I'm pretty sure that firmware 1.2.1 made any differences between the 5g ipods disappear, except for the screens, which were made more efficient and brighter on the 5.5g ipods. So, a new ipod 5.5 profile was created to turn off deblocking, as the ipods were choking at the higher AVC resolutions with deblocking turned on.

http://mewiki.project357.com/index.php/Guides:Ipod_Conversion_Guide/Video

[Theliel]

but no sense.
I dont know really if 5g support 640*480 with latest firms, but 5.5g support 640*480 and deblocking perfectly, only consume more battery.

In other side, the difference between ipod and ipod 5.5 profile are level -> bitrate constrain.

I wish i have some 5g ipod and make some test :(

[Ranguvar]

@Theliel: Common misconception. I have an iPod 5G, and it plays 640x480 AVC fine.

@kikker: Unfortunately, the stubborn iPod refuses to play video at higher than 768kb/s unless it's ~640x480. Who knows why Apple did it, but they did.

[Adub]

5.5g is 5g with a firmware update.

[Theliel]

Ipod 5.5 have different hardware. 5g was avalible in 30/60 models, for example. 5.5g was 30/80. Better screen or battery are some more examples too.

so ranguvar said have sense, 5g play 640*480 but only to 768

[kikker]

Ipod 5.5 have different hardware. 5g was avalible in 30/60 models, for example. 5.5g was 30/80. Better screen or battery are some more examples too.

so ranguvar said have sense, 5g play 640*480 but only to 768

Huh? That's not what he said. He said that that the ipod 5.0 will only play higher bitrates (<1500 kbps) at the *high* resolutions (640x480). Just do a google search. The 5.0g and 5.5g have the same playback capabilities after the firmware upgrade which unlocked the decoder chip on the 5.0g ipods.

[Ranguvar]

Yes, 5.0 and 5.5 playback support is exactly the same.

There are changes in the hard disk, screen, and battery. I'm not sure about deblocking.

[Theliel]

all right, sorry, i understood wrong :)

[Ranguvar]

all right, sorry, i understood wrong :)No need to be sorry, I've made too many mistakes myself :p

[Theliel]

i wish i have a higher english level much times :). In some cases its difficult for me explain some things.

[Theliel]

well, im playing a little with ipod touch and megui

1. With latest itunes no more uuid changes, default megui output work fine
2. Work fine up to 640*480 with 5 ref and mixed ref. Maybe support more resolution.
3. up to 2.5mb confirmed. Maybe more.

Support all baseline settings: deblock, analyse, ref...
In first test, dont support cabac or b frames (He'll need a main profile support).

[kikker]

2.5 mb AVC? That's 67% higher than what's reported by Apple.

[Ranguvar]

well, im playing a little with ipod touch and megui

1. With latest itunes no more uuid changes, default megui output work fine
2. Work fine up to 640*480 with 5 ref and mixed ref. Maybe support more resolution.
3. up to 2.5mb confirmed. Maybe more.

Support all baseline settings: deblock, analyse, ref...
In first test, dont support cabac or b frames (He'll need a main profile support). :eek: 5 reference frames!? Hell, my PSP can't do that, and it has full Main Profile. And I thought 2.5MB/s was only for MPEG-4 SP. Well if it is indeed working, that rocks!

[Theliel]

:O

I have found the max settings (I belive):

6 ref with mix -> 7+ ref dont work fine.
720*576 25fps -> PAL res, and I suppose support NTSC perfectly too.
6MB/s -> My pal source are transparent at 6mb. x264 restrict bitrate to the max supported for a transparent encoding, in this case restrict my 10mb/s to 6mb/s aprox.

the most probable are the new gen ipod support pure h264 3.0 level and baseline profile, and the only restriction are a ref 6. So support pal/ntsc up to 10Mb/s

amazing!!

A Video Clip with all above settings (720*576 25fps, 6MB/s, deblock, analyse, ref 6 and 128kbs AAC-LC) no only work, but work smooth completely.

[giandrea]

:eek: 5 reference frames!? Hell, my PSP can't do that, and it has full Main Profile. And I thought 2.5MB/s was only for MPEG-4 SP. Well if it is indeed working, that rocks!

Good, but how much do 5 ref frames help? Isn't 2 ref frames enough?

[kikker]

:O

most probable are the new gen ipod support pure h264 3.0 level and baseline profile, and the only restriction are a ref 6. So support pal/ntsc up to 10Mb/s



Ref6 and 10 mbps are clearly out of baseline level 3.0 range, no? What command line did you use exactly? Interesting that Apple states a max of 1.5 mpbs?!

[giandrea]

Ref6 and 10 mbps are clearly out of baseline level 3.0 range, no? What command line did you use exactly? Interesting that Apple states a max of 1.5 mpbs?!

No, Apple states a maximum of 2.5 Mbps on the iPod Touch tech specs page. Have a look. (http://www.apple.com/ipodtouch/specs.html)

But then it is great that it supports full PAL!! Now the question is: will it do anamorphic? And another question: do you import PAL res videos in iTunes and have them synched with the iPod or do you use another software to put those vids on the iPod?

[giandrea]

Ref6 and 10 mbps are clearly out of baseline level 3.0 range, no?

Yes and no. According to the H264 Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264#Levels), the maximum bitrate for Baseline 3.0 is 10 Mbps, and the max stored frames for PAL@25fps is 5 frames.

[Theliel]

Only itunes, no more programs. itunes acept perfectly this .mp4 and syncronize in ipod. If you try video to higher res or higher profile, you can add in itunes, but ipod refuse syncronize.

I can try some anamorphic samples if you want, or if you can, upload some and i can try too.

[giandrea]

Only itunes, no more programs. itunes acept perfectly this .mp4 and syncronize in ipod. If you try video to higher res or higher profile, you can add in itunes, but ipod refuse syncronize.

I can try some anamorphic samples if you want, or if you can, upload some and i can try too.

OK, one moment, I'm encoding two samples, then I'll upload them and give you a link.

[foxyshadis]

A level is a minimum supported level of functionality, same as a profile. All hardware will have quirks that support more here or there, but anything encoded at level maximums will work.

(Of course, manufacturers lie all the time, so take that with a grain of salt.)

[giandrea]

OK, here is the first one:

Download file 1 (≈ 17MB) (http://motoriweb.com/public/chap_43.mp4)

This is a plain MP4 file encoded with Handbrake, without special uuid atoms or any iPod setting. It has no b-frames, 3 mixed ref frames, all partitions, no cabac, me=umh and subq=6, deblocking=-2,-2. I've set no VBV costraints and the bitrate is 2000 kbps, it's not even 2 pass. In theory it should not work on the iPod 5.5G. The video is not anamorphic.

Download file 2 (≈ 17MB) (http://motoriweb.com/public/chap_43_anamorphic.mp4)

Same as above, but anamorphic, pure DVD quality. It even plays anamorphic in QuickTime because it has a special MP4 atom.

If they are too big I can cut them to a couple of MB, or whatever size you want. I'm going to buy an iPod Touch as soon as it is available here in Italy... :P

[Theliel]

in first time dont work, because you have use a 5.1 level. Itunes read level of mp4 used, and if higher than 3.0 dont upload them to ipod. after edit with hexedit level 51 to level 30: both are upload.

First video work fine
Second video dont work. Audio ok, but black screen.

[Mgz]

so for best viewing pleasure on iPod and other portable video player (Creative Zen, Sandisk Sansa View, Cowon iAudio D2, etc) , which one is better?

the cripple H.264 without b-frame or the old-skool XviD ASP with b-frame and no GMC/Qpel?

[Schrade]

so for best viewing pleasure on iPod and other portable video player (Creative Zen, Sandisk Sansa View, Cowon iAudio D2, etc) , which one is better?

the cripple H.264 without b-frame or the old-skool XviD ASP with b-frame and no GMC/Qpel?
The PSP certainly is a mighty capable portable media player. And now with the new PSP Slim & Lite you can hook it up to a TV and playback video at full resolution if it's encoded at 720x480.

[Theliel]

Imo, the new iPod new generation. PAL up to 10mb/s. But yes, don't support b frames or cabac... For now. Tv out of course too.

[giandrea]

in first time dont work, because you have use a 5.1 level. Itunes read level of mp4 used, and if higher than 3.0 dont upload them to ipod. after edit with hexedit level 51 to level 30: both are upload.

First video work fine
Second video dont work. Audio ok, but black screen.

OK, sorry for bothering you, but I created another anamorphic clip, it has no special atom, it is a plain MP4 file this time. The anamorphic signalling is only in the bitstream, and the level is 3.0 (bitrate 2000 kbps). I further reduced the frame size to 640x432 with a PAR of 8:5 (I know, it is uncommon).

Download file 3 (http://motoriweb.com/public/chap43_anamorphic_2.mp4)

I hope it will play, anyway I really don't understand why the previous clip would display a black screen and not a distorted video instead... :eek:

[Theliel]

nop. This time when I try play him: Sorry, not posible playback this video.

[me7]

Is there any way to mux iPod compatible chapters into mp4/m4v files? I seached this forum and used google, but I didn't find any useful info which chapter file format I need.

[FFWD]

Don't know, if you're on OS X you might try Apple's Chapter Tool

[LeoD9]

Quote:
Is there any way to mux iPod compatible chapters into mp4/m4v files? I seached this forum and used google, but I didn't find any useful info which chapter file format I need.

HandBrake rips DVDs wth the option to include the chapter markers.


Also, do you guys know that 704x432 encoded with HandBrake will play fine on a 5.5G iPod, as long as the bitrate doesn't go too high? 2-pass 1500kbps vbv-maxrate 1500 vbv-bufsize 2000 seeems to work fine. 640x432 should be fine too, but I wouldn't know how to set the PAR for it. Anyone know an easy free way on a PC? Thanks.

[giandrea]

Quote:
Is there any way to mux iPod compatible chapters into mp4/m4v files? I seached this forum and used google, but I didn't find any useful info which chapter file format I need.

HandBrake rips DVDs wth the option to include the chapter markers.


Also, do you guys know that 704x432 encoded with HandBrake will play fine on a 5.5G iPod, as long as the bitrate doesn't go too high? 2-pass 1500kbps vbv-maxrate 1500 vbv-bufsize 2000 seeems to work fine. 640x432 should be fine too, but I wouldn't know how to set the PAR for it. Anyone know an easy free way on a PC? Thanks.

From what the other guy said, PAR is not supported by the iPod (Touch at least).

[LeoD9]

oh well; it (anamorphic 704x432) works fine on the iPod 5.5G anyway! (Although I have only tested this with encodes made using HandBrake with its anamorphic option and using a crop of --crop 72:72:8:8 to give me 704x432 pixels, which is just under the 1200 macroblock limit for iPod 5.5G video. HandBrake is very easy to use; now with a decent Windows GUI as well as a good Mac one. It has simple command line too.

You canalso check the HB forums; there's been a fair bit of discussion about it there.

[fleon]

The PSP certainly is a mighty capable portable media player. And now with the new PSP Slim & Lite you can hook it up to a TV and playback video at full resolution if it's encoded at 720x480.

It really is a mighty capable portable media player but could you tell me how much is the total music playback time? and how about the the total video playback time, I was thinking on an ipod nano 3rd gen but it seems that the psp slim & lite is a better option but I dont know other thing it fits on jean pocket? also if it fits does it feels comfortable I'm afraid that maybe is too big

[Atak_Snajpera]

could you tell me how much is the total music playback time? and how about the the total video playback time

PSP FAT:
up to 16h for music (with display switched off )
up to 6h for video (with display switched to level 3)

PSP Slim has smaller battery with lower capacity therefore those numbers will be lower.

[fleon]

PSP FAT:
up to 16h for music (with display switched off )
up to 6h for video (with display switched to level 3)

PSP Slim has smaller battery with lower capacity therefore those numbers will be lower.

Well Wikipedia says this: To make the PSP slimmer, the capacity of the battery was reduced by about 1/3. Due to more efficient power usage, the runtime of the PSP is still the same as the older model.

So it is the same time for both psp's, but I wanna know something do you know all about that thing the people is talking about the screen of the psp is something about the high latency or ghost effects, something like that, i dont know anything about that could you explain this thing if you use pictures that will be perfect thanks

[Atak_Snajpera]

Well Wikipedia says this: To make the PSP slimmer, the capacity of the battery was reduced by about 1/3. Due to more efficient power usage, the runtime of the PSP is still the same as the older model.

So it is the same time for both psp's,

That's not true!!! Benchmark.pl (http://www.benchmark.pl/r.php?file=http://www.benchmark.pl/aktualnosci/news1660.php) made a small test with game Ridge Racer. Battery ran out on fat after 4h:45m ,on Slim after 4h:00m

[fleon]

That's not true!!! Benchmark.pl (http://www.benchmark.pl/r.php?file=http://www.benchmark.pl/aktualnosci/news1660.php) made a small test with game Ridge Racer. Battery ran out on fat after 4h:45m ,on Slim after 4h:00m

Well I dont understand that language, but I bet you are right all the companys lie about the playback thing, anyway hopefully I will buy the old battery pack with more capacity

But hey could please help me out with the high latency thing on the screen of the psp that some people is talking about I dont know anything about that could please explain it to me

[Atak_Snajpera]

But hey could please help me out with the high latency thing on the screen of the psp that some people is talking about I dont know anything about that could please explain it to me

I will try to make an example in Photo-Paint after my work.