Is 480i60 officially possible for HD-DVD-compliant AVC?

[miamicanes]

Does anybody know whether it's officially possible to encode HD-DVD compliant AVC/H.264 480i60 video?

So far, I've been told by one person that it's not supported, but I haven't really seen any other evidence either supporting or refuting that claim anywhere. I personally can't believe that the DVD Forum would have officially slammed the door and eliminated the possibility of encoding 6-20+ hours of 480i60 video onto HD-DVD media... but I'm equally sure the DVD Forum probably has a rule against the use of a specific logo suggesting high-definition content on a disc of SD content that just happens to be stored on HD-DVD media so more will fit.

Comments?

[Sagittaire]

Does anybody know whether it's officially possible to encode HD-DVD compliant AVC/H.264 480i60 video?

So far, I've been told by one person that it's not supported, but I haven't really seen any other evidence either supporting or refuting that claim anywhere. I personally can't believe that the DVD Forum would have officially slammed the door and eliminated the possibility of encoding 6-20+ hours of 480i60 video onto HD-DVD media... but I'm equally sure the DVD Forum probably has a rule against the use of a specific logo suggesting high-definition content on a disc of SD content that just happens to be stored on HD-DVD media so more will fit.

Comments?

well it's 480i30 (frame) or 480i60 (field)? I prefer use frame speed because 480p is the frame resolution.

480i29.97 and 480p29.97 are perfectly compliant with HDDVD.

[miamicanes]

Cool. Now we just need to have someone run a booth at the next major video trade show that gives out free food, but requires everyone to exit through a confessional and spend 15 seconds inside, whispering any secrets that might be weighing heavily upon their NDA-shackled souls... like the official hard limits that need to be observed for HD-DVD-compliant AVC/H.264 that nobody seems to be allowed to talk about in public, or discover without paying lots of money to the DVD Forum. ;-)

[drmpeg]

Allowed formats are listed in this document:

http://dvdforum.org/images/Requirements%20Specification%20for%20HD%20DVD%20Video%20Application-July2005.pdf

Ron

[miamicanes]

Sort of... it doesn't actually elaborate on what specific subset of AVC/h.264 is supported. Things like maximum GOP length, maximum reference frames, how far overboard you can go with B-frame pyramids, etc. The details you'd have to know in order to use something like x264 to encode video that will someday be fit for authoring to a compliant HD-DVD without re-encoding :)

[Sagittaire]

Sort of... it doesn't actually elaborate on what specific subset of AVC/h.264 is supported. Things like maximum GOP length, maximum reference frames, how far overboard you can go with B-frame pyramids, etc. The details you'd have to know in order to use something like x264 to encode video that will someday be fit for authoring to a compliant HD-DVD without re-encoding :)

@REM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
@REM >> HDDVD 480p
@REM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

x264.exe --threads 1 --keyint 14 --min-keyint 1 --vbv-maxrate 14000 --vbv-init 1.0 --vbv-bufsize 7500 --mvrange 255 --level 3.2 --nal-hrd --bframe 2 --bime --weightb --ref 1 --mixed-refs --direct auto --deblock -1:-1 --bitrate 1800 --pass 1 --stats "x264_stat.log" --qcomp 0.75 --ipratio 1.10 --pbratio 1.10 --partitions "all" --8x8dct --me "hex" --subme 5 --aud --sar 40:33 --cqmfile Sagittaire.cfg --deadzone-intra 6 --deadzone-inter 6 --aq-strength 0.25 --aq-sensitivity 5 --progress -o 480p.h264 Encodage_HD_NTSC_480p.avs

x264.exe --threads 3 --keyint 14 --min-keyint 1 --vbv-maxrate 14000 --vbv-init 1.0 --vbv-bufsize 7500 --mvrange 255 --level 3.2 --nal-hrd --bframe 2 --b-rdo --bime --weightb --ref 3 --mixed-refs --direct auto --deblock -1:-1 --bitrate 1800 --pass 3 --stats "x264_stat.log" --qcomp 0.75 --ipratio 1.10 --pbratio 1.10 --partitions "all" --8x8dct --me "hex" --subme 6 --no-fast-pskip --no-dct-decimate --trellis 1 --aud --sar 40:33 --cqmfile Sagittaire.cfg --deadzone-intra 6 --deadzone-inter 6 --aq-strength 0.25 --aq-sensitivity 5 --progress -o 480p.h264 Encodage_HD_NTSC_480p.avs

x264.exe --threads 3 --keyint 14 --min-keyint 1 --vbv-maxrate 14000 --vbv-init 1.0 --vbv-bufsize 7500 --mvrange 255 --level 3.2 --nal-hrd --bframe 2 --b-rdo --bime --weightb --ref 3 --mixed-refs --direct auto --deblock -1:-1 --bitrate 1800 --pass 3 --stats "x264_stat.log" --qcomp 0.75 --ipratio 1.10 --pbratio 1.10 --partitions "all" --8x8dct --me "umh" --subme 7 --no-fast-pskip --no-dct-decimate --trellis 2 --aud --sar 40:33 --cqmfile Sagittaire.cfg --deadzone-intra 6 --deadzone-inter 6 --aq-strength 0.25 --aq-sensitivity 5 --progress -o 480p.h264 Encodage_HD_NTSC_480p.avs

[foxyshadis]

Just clarifying, but --keyint 14 is for 24p, the limit is 0.6s rounded down for whatever framerate you use.

[Sagittaire]

Just clarifying, but --keyint 14 is for 24p, the limit is 0.6s rounded down for whatever framerate you use.

Well thread speak about 480i30 and in this case it's 36 fields (aka 0.606 sec). Anyway 480i30 is generaly telecine movie and you must use 480p24 progressive encoding with pulldown 3:2 flags and in this case 14 frames for the max GOP.

[miamicanes]

OK, how about:

* Max number of reference frames allowed?

* Are mixed reference frames allowed?

* is CABAC allowed?

* Max number of B-frames?

* Are B-pyramids allowed?

[Trahald]

Since the spec isnt (freely) available... We are going by pro apps that use these limitations for hddvd (this application is built on an SDK that supports avc fully so the limitations set into the gui are assumed to be hddvd specific.. especially since the gui allows greater freedom for bluray specific ie bluray allowance of long gops/pyramid/3-bframes)

so... for hddvd

* Max number of reference frames allowed?
4

* Are mixed reference frames allowed?
yes

* is CABAC allowed?
yes

* Max number of B-frames?
2

* Are B-pyramids allowed?
no

[Jay Bee]

Since we're on the topic if Standard Def on HD optical I'll just throw in a question I've asked before in the past. Maybe someone knows the answer by now: What I'd really like to know is whether 720 x 576 with a pixel aspect ratio of 16:15 is allowed or not (this results in a true 1.33 aspect ratio). Scenarist only accepts 12:11 which means a final aspect ratio of 1.36.

[scharfis_brain]

scenarist is correct, that 720x576 is NOT true 4x3 (or 16x9).

720x576 is wider than 4x3 (or 16x9).
704x576 is near to real 4x3 (or 16x9).

look at the ITU.601 specs.

702 (seven zero two) x576 is real 4x3 (or 16x9)

[Jay Bee]

So what does this mean in a practical sense? If I have a DVB 720 x 576 MPEG-2 stream and I play it back on my PC it will be resized to 768 x 576 by the player. Now if I encode that file to AVC using the 12:11 that Scenarist wants then it will be resized to 785 x 576. Since that's quite a big difference which one is right?

I did some tests and with 768 x 576 a circle is a circle, with 785 x 576 it's too wide. :confused:

[scharfis_brain]

Here is a test DVD I made.
http://home.arcor.de/scharfis_brain/PAR.rar
be careful the RAR extracts to 150 Megs.

Tracks:
1) generic PAR: should create a wrong circle on TV (but PCs are scaling wrong so that the circle appears correct again)

2) 720x576 with ITU PAR: should create a correct circle on TV, but PCs often will create a wrong circle

3) 704x576 with ITU PAR: should create a correct circle on TV as well on PC.

[Jay Bee]

Thanks. I'll have a look at your files when I have the time, bit busy right now.

[Trahald]

This is from the avc spec
ASPECT_RATIO_IDC SAR Usage
-----------------------------------------------------------
2 12:11 720x576 4:3 frame with horizontal overscan
352x288 4:3 frame without horizontal overscan
-----------------------------------------------------------
3 10:11 720x480 4:3 frame with horizontal overscan
352x240 4:3 frame without horizontal overscan
-----------------------------------------------------------
4 16:11 720x576 16:9 frame with horizontal overscan
528x576 4:3 frame without horizontal overscan2 and 4 are the only 720x576 options

[scharfis_brain]

nope. 704x576/480 are valid, too!

one can resize 352 <-> 704 without problems.
but if you want to resize to or from 720 things will become difficult:

720 to 352: 720 -> crop to 704 -> resize to 352
352 to 720: 352 -> resize to 704 -> add borders left and right to 720

I hope, this makes it a bit better understandable.

[Inventive Software]

The problem with these aspect ratios is that they're correct..... for DV footage! In the case of PAL DVD content, 16:15 for 4:3 content is correct and allowed (I use it cause it gives me the correct AR I'm after, 4:3). 64:45 is also correct for 16:9 content, and I use that a lot too. I don't use 16:11 or 12:11 cause it doesn't look right. Xvid taught me to work out my own PARs and never use their own. ;)

[nixo]

Allowed formats are listed in this document:

http://dvdforum.org/images/Requirements%20Specification%20for%20HD%20DVD%20Video%20Application-July2005.pdf

Ron

Reading through this it appears that HD-DVD players are required to support some dvb resolutions such as 544*576. I'm wondering if anyone has succesfully authored such a disc and what authoring software would work for this?
I have a bunch of Beavis & Butt-head dvb captures and it would be pretty cool if I didn't have to resize them for SAP playback.

[Trahald]

@scharfis
I should have been more clear. I only posted that to show the aspect ratio idc and the sar values for 480/576 resolutions used on hddvd. It wasnt for the 704/720 part.

[miamicanes]

Trahald, thanks!!!!

So, as a practical matter, has anyone managed to encode a 720x480 video from DV source to AVC/H.264 using x264, then author a 9-gig HD-DVD with it, burn it to a DVD+R/DL, and successfully play it back on a commercially-available HD-DVD player? Or was there ultimately still some unknown issue that made the player choke on it?

[Jay Bee]

Here is a test DVD I made.
http://home.arcor.de/scharfis_brain/PAR.rar
be careful the RAR extracts to 150 Megs.

Tracks:
1) generic PAR: should create a wrong circle on TV (but PCs are scaling wrong so that the circle appears correct again)

2) 720x576 with ITU PAR: should create a correct circle on TV, but PCs often will create a wrong circle

3) 704x576 with ITU PAR: should create a correct circle on TV as well on PC.

Finally found some time to look at the samples. What I came up with is this little table that shows which methods lead to a correct Aspect Ratio and which ones don't.

http://xs220.xs.to/xs220/07412/PAR.png

Problem is that still leaves me with a lot of open questions:
-Why do PC players use resize methods that don't agree with ITU?
-What is Overscan for?

And most importantly: why do the DVB streams I tested keep circles as circles when I use the "wrong" PC resizing method, even though they do have black overscan bars on the sides of the image, indicating that 12:11 pixel resize is the method that should be correct?

Can I assume that producers and broadcasters just aren't all that fussy about aspect ratios and ITU standards and that PC player developers are being more practical whereas HD Optical only support the ITU method?


So, as a practical matter, has anyone managed to encode a 720x480 video from DV source to AVC/H.264 using x264, then author a 9-gig HD-DVD with it, burn it to a DVD+R/DL, and successfully play it back on a commercially-available HD-DVD player? Or was there ultimately still some unknown issue that made the player choke on it?

That's what I'd like to know. I've been trying with the demo version of Elecard Converter Studio. One problem I was having: if I create an AVC stream, Scenarist will accept it. If I make an MP4 file with the same settings and later demux, Scenarist won't accept it.