3 months since last AACS hack. Our keys could be revoked any day now

[lightshadow]

It have been more than 3 months since AACS was last hacked, and according to previous post in this forum, AACS LA can only revoke keys after 3 months.

So any day now could we have ours keys revoked or even an improved DRM =(

BD+ is the most likely to be next DRM layer, right?

According to Engadget BD+ is already here (http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/20/bd-drm-is-now-available-for-blu-ray/).

BDA Details Blu-Ray Disc Content Protection Technology (http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Print.aspx?NewsId=17598)

http://www.cdrinfo.com/images/uploaded/BD+_Architecture.jpg
http://www.cdrinfo.com/images/uploaded/BD+_Media_Transform.jpg
http://www.cdrinfo.com/images/uploaded/BD-ROM_HDDVD-ROM_Comparison1.jpg

[bcrabl]

BD+ is only for blu-ray format so it will not affect HD-DVD. And I highly doubt that anybody unless Fox is going to use it

[bourke]

As sure as night follows day - Sony will also use it.

[lightshadow]

So HD-DVD have accepted their defeat and won't fight back with an extra layer of DRM?

[Galileo2000]

So HD-DVD have accepted their defeat and won't fight back with an extra layer of DRM?

I would not call it "defeat". I n fact it is a victory for them by many accounts. I've seen many people who said they would never buy BD because of BD+.

As of "extra layer", HD DVD has AACS only. And even AACS is not mandatory for the HD DVD whereas it is for Blu Ray.

[Tack]

So HD-DVD have accepted their defeat and won't fight back with an extra layer of DRM?I tend to think that if BD "wins" it will have absolutely nothing to do with BD+, hence HD-DVD needn't bother with another DRM layer.

[Galileo2000]

I can only add that AACS is not "defeated" per ce. They have a couple of aces under their sleeve.

As of now the "win" for BD is highly unlikely anytime soon, especially after the Paramount / DreamWorks announcement of going HD DVD exclusively.

If anything, BD+ will prevent BD from winning rather than help it.

[Ajax_Undone]

When the DRM becomes too Complicated/Retarded to sew onto any one disk it looses credibility at extreme rates...

Company's like Dream-Works And Paramount know Time is Money and to them they wont have to spend much time using a One fold DRM tech rather then the retarded labyrinth of BD+...

Like so many Before me I think BluRay as a whole should crawl into a corner and Die a Hard miserable death...

If Sony had any brains they would retract BlueRay as a movie volume, crap shoot all of the DRM and Make it exclusive to
PS3/x For Games...

And if they felt resin to ad a [bunch] of copy protection to those and end the games worth all together and die as a company...

[lightshadow]

As of "extra layer", HD DVD has AACS only. And even AACS is not mandatory for the HD DVD whereas it is for Blu Ray.
Does this mean, that we have seen all the DRM that HD-DVD have to offer?

[KenD00]

We are still "missing" Sequence Key Sections, some online access stuff, and well, time will tell when ARccOS and the latter are entering the HD age ;).

:rolleyes:

[Galileo2000]

Does this mean, that we have seen all the DRM that HD-DVD have to offer?

HD-DVD has AACS-only.

But AACS is not limited to the single Processing key being changed every 3 months or so.

It is much more complicated than that.

There are things like different/multiple Processing keys, Sequence keys for the same/different Processing keys and more.

AACS LA specs are open to the public.

AACS LA relies on the set of the highly secret Master Keys. All other keys can be derived from the "top-floor" Master keys.

arnezami put an excellent thread on the AACS right here on doom9:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=122363

Like I said, AACS is very far from being "defeated" in technical terms.

Real-life terms, implementation costs and testing costs are all the different subjects.

If AACS LA will just keep changing the single Processing Key, it may not reflect their inability to present much more complicated ways of the content encryption but rather real-life situations they have to face.

Bottom line: no matter what they do, it will be defeated. It is a matter of time. They know this. We know this.

Now, on BD+:

BD+ is a totally different animal. It is running a virtual computer on top of the player, be it an STB or the PC software player ( read PDVD) as the diagram you have posted has illustrated.

However, BD+ specs are secret.

No one actually knows how will it work or not work. No one knows how it will interact with the old or new AACS being present on the same disc. No one knows how will it work on the legitimate BD players version 1.0.

No BD+ titles were released yet. October 2 is the day, stay tuned.

SlySoft guys say it will take them about 6 weeks to break BD+ completely. They say they just want to explain to Fox that Fox made a wrong bet.

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7756/foxvsfoxvo7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[greath]

They say they just want to explain to Fox that Fox made a wrong bet.

It's funny you should say that, but BD+ seems to be to be just so completely against all definitions of fair use that one can't but hope for it to fail. AACS is just an encryption scheme - BD+ takes control of your whole player. I don't have Blu-Ray but if I did I would not want a) a VM scanning my player b) being able to re-flash it or mess with it in potentially destructive ways c) be able to communicate back to the corporate mothership information on my player and by default me d) monitoring my every interaction with the disc.

Why is the BD+ specification kept secret? One could say to try and protect the encryption method through information hiding, but maybe it's because all-hell could break lose if we could actually see what the BD+ VM can do............. Until someone tells us what it can and cannot we should encourage people not to but Blu-Ray.

Will be interesting to see if Sony and others, aside from Fox, use BD+. Supposedly Fox wanted it but it's never been known for Sony to not use every corruption scheme they can get their hands on.

[Alosaur]

As of now the "win" for BD is highly unlikely anytime soon, especially after the Paramount / DreamWorks announcement of going HD DVD exclusively.

They only went HD DVD exclusive because they were bought off and nothing more. BD is still outselling HD DVD by margins of 2 and 3+ to 1. 300 was a huge success for an HD release and the BD was apparently outselling the HD DVD version by over 3:1. I highly doubt that Paramount and Dreamworks are going to be able to break that trend especially since all of Speilberg's movies aren't in that deal (and are probably some of the biggest movies they have in their catalogues).

If anything, BD+ will prevent BD from winning rather than help it.

Highly doubtful. For the vast, vast majority of people they won't know the difference between a release with BD+ and those without it and as such will have zero impact on their buying habit.

[Galileo2000]

I was expressing my opinions as they were relevant to the decryption /DRM issues raised by the OP.

Let's not turn doom9 into yet another "HD DVD vs BD "board.

Puhleeese.

[mdkusr]

They only went HD DVD exclusive because they were bought off and nothing more. BD is still outselling HD DVD by margins of 2 and 3+ to 1....

Hmm, I don't think so - http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Sales/Netflix/Netflix:_Demand_for_Blu-ray_and_HD_DVD_Evenly_Split,_But_Tiny/895

[Alosaur]

Hmm, I don't think so - http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Sales/Netflix/Netflix:_Demand_for_Blu-ray_and_HD_DVD_Evenly_Split,_But_Tiny/895

That data set doesn't refute my statement which is based on the totality of sales for each format and not just a cherry picked set. And let's not forget that 300 (which has the biggest HD sales so far) had a breakdown of sales of 65% Blu-Ray to 35% HD DVD which is pretty normal for dual format releases.

[Alosaur]

Hmm, I don't think so - http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Sales/Netflix/Netflix:_Demand_for_Blu-ray_and_HD_DVD_Evenly_Split,_But_Tiny/895

I very much think so and the evidence is on my side. Just have a gander at this news item:

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/10741.cfm

The report said that total sales of Blu-ray discs for the period of January 1st to July 31st was 1.6 million units, more than double that of HD DVD which had 795,000 discs sold over the same period.

Sorry, but my point is clearly been backed up by these sales figures where in that period Blu-Ray outsold HD DVD by a margin of just slightly over 2:1.

[Alosaur]

I was expressing my opinions as they were relevant to the decryption /DRM issues raised by the OP.

Let's not turn doom9 into yet another "HD DVD vs BD "board.

Puhleeese.

I wasn't turning it into anything. I was just pointing out that your statement is false as it would have an extremely marginal effect on Blu-Ray sales as most consumers wouldn't know the difference between a BD+ and non-BD+ title when playing it back. I do find it funny, though, that you find the facts inconvenient when they contradict your viewpoint.

[Galileo2000]

I wasn't turning it into anything. I was just pointing out that your statement is false as it would have an extremely marginal effect on Blu-Ray sales as most consumers wouldn't know the difference between a BD+ and non-BD+ title when playing it back. I do find it funny, though, that you find the facts inconvenient when they contradict your viewpoint.

I think your statements are false and results of the BD+ implementation will affect quite a few consumers.

I also find it funny that you don't have any facts, pro or contra yet attack anything which might corrupt the worldview of your sacred format.

[diogen]

Alosaur,-

Go back to topic or go away.

Diogen.

[Mug Funky]

from what i can tell, BD+ has the potential to need hacking on a title-by-title basis. this situation has been compared to how computer games are copied today - each game needs a different hack.

@ Alosaur:

don't have too much faith in sales figures. not even those in the business of knowing them can pin them down accurately. and just because they were sold to stores in this quarter, doesn't mean they wont be returned in the next, at a dramatic loss. i believe Wal-Mart and a few of the other chains have this policy. mass returns have in fact done severe damage to a few companies in the DVD world, and considering the hype-to-adoption ratio of the new HD formats, i could only assume it's worse for BD and HD-DVD, if not for the fact that far less discs are published, and by companies with less stake in monthly sales.

of course, return figures are never published :)

[blutach]

I was expressing my opinions as they were relevant to the decryption /DRM issues raised by the OP.

Let's not turn doom9 into yet another "HD DVD vs BD "board.

Puhleeese.
I agree. Alosaur - please keep on topic. We really don't care for format spruikers.

Consider this a formal warning.

Regards

[Alosaur]

don't have too much faith in sales figures. not even those in the business of knowing them can pin them down accurately. and just because they were sold to stores in this quarter, doesn't mean they wont be returned in the next, at a dramatic loss. i believe Wal-Mart and a few of the other chains have this policy. mass returns have in fact done severe damage to a few companies in the DVD world, and considering the hype-to-adoption ratio of the new HD formats, i could only assume it's worse for BD and HD-DVD, if not for the fact that far less discs are published, and by companies with less stake in monthly sales.

of course, return figures are never published :)

So then I should only trust the sales figures directly from Warner Bros that report that in their dual format releases that the Blu-Ray always outsells their HD DVD release by 2 or 3:1? Okay, I'll do so.

[Alosaur]

I agree. Alosaur - please keep on topic. We really don't care for format spruikers.

Except that I buy both formats so that pretty much eliminates that claim that I'm some anti-HD DVD person. I know that most people here don't like the fact that Blu-Ray is clearly winning despite the attempts by Microsoft to buy off companies to join HD DVD, but that's just the way it is.

Consider this a formal warning.

Regards

Ahh, I see. If I was bashing Sony and Blu-Ray like him there would be no problem but pointing out facts that show his statements to be false means I get a warning. Yeah that sounds real fair. Well then you can just suspend my account then because that's just ludicrous.

[blutach]

You were warned to stay on topic.

Strike issued.

This thread (in fact the whole sub-forum) is about decrypting - and has nothing at all to do with sales figures.

Now, please re-read the rules - you've only just joined us, so they might be fresh in your mind.

Regards