radeon TV out quality

[gft]

For the past year or two I've been watching DVDs on my TV using the TV out on my matrox G400. It's output looks just like a real DVD player's. Does the Radeon also output DVDs at similarly high quality?

Specifically, with my Matrox card, the windows desktop has a black box around it on the TV, while for playing DVDs the G400 can switch to a true full screen mode. Can the Radeon do this?

For those of you that know, the feature I'm talking about is called dvdmax by Matrox.

Thanks,
gft

[Slick]

Yep Radeon cards can output to tv & do it extremely well.
however it is the Dvd software that gives you the full screen ability, not the video card.
the video card gives you the hardware required to run "full screen" smoothly.

try PowerDvd or Windvd they both allow full screen mode (no Borders curser or tools showing)

with the Ati card it displays Tv out @ 800X600 & before you enable Tv out you should really change your desktop to 800X600 aswell.
otherwise you will get a sliding screen veiw on the Tv.:)

[gft]

I think you misunderstood me a little. I don't want the video card to display the DVDs on a TV at any particular resolution, at least in terms of how a computer monitor uses resolution. I'm talking about a TV's native interlaced mode. Does the TV out on a radeon, while playing a DVD, look identical to a normal hardware DVD player?

Thanks,
gft

[Slick]

[QUOTE]Yep Radeon cards can output to tv & do it extremely well.

my first post answered your question!


the second part IE: about the resolution was just me trying to help you or anyone with a radeon card in explaining how to get the best from it.


the Radeon is probably one of, if not the best of cards at Tv out!

of course the quality on any Video out is relative to the source quality & Cable quality.

I have owned the following Ati products & they all gave brilliant video out.
32mb all in wonder
64mb Radeon VIVO
64mb Radeon 8500le

but like I said it can also depend on the Dvd player software!

[gft]

Thanks for trying to help out, but I really only need a yes/no answer:

Does the TV out on a radeon, while playing a DVD, look identical to a normal hardware DVD player?

Thanks,
gft

[Slick]

How many ways do I need to Say it "YES" it does!
providing you have decent Dvd software, & Decent cables.
:eek:

[gft]

:p I'm sorry, I guess we were just making things too complicated for each other. :rolleyes:

Thanks so much for putting up with me!

-gft

[Slick]

Hey No problem! :D

I should have just said "Yes" :)

Have fun with the card.

[Emp3r0r]

My cheap Radeon VE actually is doing very nicely for DVD and Divx playback on TV. Quality is almost as good as my Hollywood+ DVD output was. Well worth 40-50 bucks.

[daveidmx]

ok, i know that this horse is quite dead, but i have a related question.

can any of the radeon cards send a video overlay to the TV-Out with full overscan (and independant of the main framebuffer)?

put another way - can i have a visible overlay in a window on my desktop and have that overlay output to the full tv screen like matrox's DVDMax feature

[Slick]

@daveidmx

Sorry I dont know what you mean! :eek:

can you explain it in simple terms Please. :D

[Emp3r0r]

the overlay features you speak of work with my radeon ve on windows xp using zoom player. I see samething on tv that I see on screen.

[vinetu]

"in simple terms" - open an *avi or *mpg or *vob file with any player
that use the "DirectDraw" ,next push "play" button and minimize movie window,next run
"Solitaire" or other game that is't use DirectX and start "gaming" on the Primery VGA screen
and SIMULTANEOUSLY watch the FULL SIZE -FULL MOTION INTERLACED movie on the Second monitor...

***OR run Adobe Premiere 6 ,open an DV project preset ,open a DV avi and start editing on primery Display
while watching FULL SIZE -FULL MOTION INTERLACED movie on the Second monitor...

in some cases this can be done by matroxG400 (I hate "matrox drivers development team") !
Can any of the Radeon or GeForce cards do this?
(I would be happy of just playing the movie on second monitor INTERLACED )

[Slick]

yes you can do this with the radeon 8500 cards.
also i think with the 7200 cards but i'm not too sure, best to check the ATI web site to check if it has dual output.(if it has a monitor & digital display output it should work O.K )

I have the 8500 Le & it works fine.

[jwexqm]

I own an 8500 and one of my primary interests was it's TV out capability.

It's definitely got the edge in terms of sharpness over my GeForce2 GTS and a significant bonus is that you can configure custom resolutions in Powerstrip (like 720x576) - that wasn't possible in on my GeForce under WindowsXP using the Detonator drivers at the time.

However I still wouldn't classify it as the holy grail TV out card.
There are 2 4-way controls on the displays property sheet to control size and position of the display on the TV, however I can never get enough headroom out of these to completely fill the screen (I've tried 2 tellys).

In terms of visual quality I wouldn't say it's up to a hollywood plus although can't rule out improvements in through drivers updates. Recently they fixed a horrible problem with DVD playback where subtle changes in shade of dark areas of the picture would come out as hard transitions in colour. In the end they've added an overlay adjustments property sheet to include a gamma setting (set it to 0 when the DVD is playing and the problem goes away).
I did some inspection and I think MPEG2 artefacts in the form of 'dancing pixels' are filtered out much better on the H+ which behaves just like an extremely high quality DVD deck. I tried PowerDVD XP & WinDVD 3 through the ATi and they both looked rougher to me.

Another issue which I think is alive and kicking but no-one else seems to grumble is that which relates to frame rate jitter.
I've got a theory that when playing a DVD through TV out (say PAL which is progressive @ 25fps) the slight mismatch between the frequency of the scanning of the TV-out circuitry and the PC's rendering of the movie can cause juddering. It's more noticable on slow pans and camera tracks but I'm sure it's there.
The other issue is that I could play NTSC discs as PAL-60 on the H+ but can't find a way to achieve that using the ATi. (anyone got any Powerstrip resolution profiles with 60hz refresh through PAL output?)
(If you don't believe me about the problems associated with mismatched playback frame rate to TV scan rate then play an NTSC disc in PAL-50 for an extreme demonstration)

I can only really speak for PAL and not NTSC tv-out usage though.

I just don't understand why manufacturers have so much trouble with TV out, I mean if anyone remembers the Amiga, well that managed full frame PAL / NTSC output (PAL @ 786x576 if I remember right) with overscan and never dropped a frame in smooth animations.

James

[daveidmx]

My comments in this post refer to frame clock jitter experienced during video playback, not specifically to 50Hz/60Hz TV-Out problems...

jwexqm:

Another issue which I think is alive and kicking but no-one else seems to grumble is that which relates to frame rate jitter.

i raised this question sometime late last year but at the time people didn't seem concerned...

what is your os, cpu, codec, video card, and what is your filtergraph when playing back the most "afflicted" movies? (and what are those movies?) i may be able to help.

[daveidmx]

Originally posted by Emp3r0r
the overlay features you speak of work with my radeon ve on windows xp using zoom player. I see samething on tv that I see on screen.

forgive me, i've never used zoomplayer.
is the TV out only fullscreen when the player is fullscreen? or can the movie be fullscreen on the TV out while the player is minimized and i'm working on something else on my desktop?

[daveidmx]

thank you vinetu for understanding my question.

so we've gathered that the G400 cards perform this function beautifully. do you happen to know if the newer matrox cards have kept this feature the same?

[damjang]

@gft

I own an ATI All In Wonder 128 and I'm not able to have che composite signal (TV out) in overscan! Even if I try to maximize the dimensions of video out (in config) I have black borders...
EG: with my vcr (or dvd) attached to tv I have no black borders, with ATI out always have the borders.
I know that AIW128 is not radeon, but I think that the TV out is the same on both boards (maybe!)

Hope this help...
damjang

[Slick]

@damjang

I dont get any borders at all with my Radeon 8500.

you do get borders with widescreen 16.9 & anomorphic but then you get these anyway when played to a non widescreen tv.

& didnt get any with the Radeon VIVO I had before it.

have you tried using Powerdvd 4?
set full screen and pan&scan @ 2.35:1 even widescreen goes full at this setting. (you do loose some from the sides at this setting)

[vinetu]

@ daveidmx :

I have tested matrox "Marvel G450 eTV" and it work ,but the maximum primery display resolution
should be 1024x768 if you want 32 bit collor and at least 85 Hz refresh rate.
At higer resolution-refresh rates there is no output from "DVD MAX" mode on second (TV) monitor.
My curent matrox board is G400MAX and it work fine @ 1200x1024x32bit 85Hz.

@ Slick :

I have been read @ www.reactor.ru that there is 2 different TV-Out chips for GeForce cards -
"Chronotel" and "Connexant" and the "Chronotel" is better.May be on your Radeon8500 TV-Out chip
is "Chronotel" ?
P.S. The black borders on TV screen from ATI Rage128 cards is a HARDWARE related!
May be after 500 years some of the manufacturers will have success ... like AMIGA ...

[daveidmx]

vinetu -- how much video memory does that g450 you're using have? is it related to video memory or to RAMDAC bandwidth?

[vinetu]

It is a standart "Marvel G450 eTV" - 32 MB RAM

[vinetu]

I guess it is an idiot related (probably the BOSS of "drivers development team")!!!

[BITS]

Well with the Vivo in full screen tv out...composite or s-video i get this rolling white luminace. Any clue what that is??Just 2 days ago a friend of mine said he gets the same thing on his second vga output...what causes this..interference???

[Emp3r0r]

Originally posted by daveidmx


forgive me, i've never used zoomplayer.
is the TV out only fullscreen when the player is fullscreen? or can the movie be fullscreen on the TV out while the player is minimized and i'm working on something else on my desktop?

What you see on monitor is what you see on TV with my Radeon VE

[daveidmx]

BITS -

rolling luminance bands? i moved to a new appartment over the holidays and i suddenly developed something similar. mine only happens when _both_ my cable tv and my computer are plugged in. mine looked like the noise was about 60Hz (i have a light and dark band separated by about half the screen's height and it rolls fairly slowly)

i figure i can fix it by grounding all my devices together and putting a high-pass filter on the catv line.

[Emp3r0r]

The problem you are refering to is a Ground Loop. Do a search on google for ground loop isolator but beware not all solutions work. YMMV.

[Roveer]

I hate to drag this thead up, but it's a question I've had for a long time.

I think the original question is, does the composite out that will drive the TV work independently of the computer video display in that it does not just project an image of the desktop (whether it has a 'maximized' dvd player in it or an application).

Here's my question.

I've got an ATI Radeon AIW with TV out. Whenever I enable the TV out the resulting display (of my desktop), on my TV is pretty crappy, not to mentinon all the sizing issues. If all the video card does is output the DVD software players overlay out to the TV then it's going to look fairly crappy too. I think the original post was asking if the video card was able to independently output the dvdplayer video signal independent of the computer in native TV display mode. I've never seen a video card with TV out display information from a computer (whether it be the desktop, or a DVDplayer), without it being really fuzzy and 'soft' This is why I am wondering why the guys at avsforum.com talk about their HTPC's using ATI cards.

Now, my Pinnacle DV500+ outputs the video signal independent of the computer video signal, and that's a whole different ballgame.

I hope I don't drag up more confusion, but this one has been eluding me for a while.

Roveer

[Zhnujm]

to avoid a to soft picture make sure you disable any kind of flickerfixer in the tv-out options. and of course use an s-video cable.
i cant see a difference in the output of my ati gfx card and my hardware decoder card.

[Roveer]

Just to make sure I understand correctly. The ati card is still just outputting the windows desktop, or a 'maximized' dvd player to the TV out. And, yes I would agree SVIDEO wherever possible.

I've heard the HTPC guys talking about some really tricked out drivers for the ATI cards. It's probably the drivers that they always list as beta and say 'use at your own risk'. They drive DLP projectors with these cards and do all kinds of crazy regristery tweaks.

More info at avsforum.com in the htpc (Home Theatre PC) forum.

Roveer

[sarahjh69]

the answer to you ground loop (rolling) problem is this.
You must not have multiple paths between yor tv and computer.
If using video out from your pc, UNPLUG anything from the video in
If using video in to your pc, UNPLUG stuff from your video out.

Next problem
my ati radeon 7000 has monitor 1, monitor 2 and tv-out connectors
anyone having a similar setup CANNOT use monitor 2 and tv out at the same time. When I say connot use I MEAN no connectors plugged into the other output. When I use monitor 2 even a s-video ro composite adaptor plugged into the tv-out socket will screw up the monitor 2 picture (and thats without a tv plugged into it)

So u must always use the 1 connector at a time rule

[l33t]

I have currently a Radeon 64DDR VIVO, connected to a 25" Trinitron screen. Using the TV-OUT feature results in excellent picture quality on the TV. Comparable to H+ decoder card (using S-Video connectors) Composite is a bit rubbish, as would be expected.

Yes, there are small (<1cm) borders which can't be got rid of.

It only operates in clone mode , i.e the same image appears on both TV and VGA.


I used a Radeon VE for a while and that did support displaying a seperate image on the VGA and TV screen (i.e it had 2 DACs so could do 2 seperate pictures) - basically multihead with TV+VGA. So it was possible to watch DVD on one screen (either TV or monitor) and use other apps on the main monitor.


AFAIK neither card does the technique people mentioned, outputting 'native' TV signal of the DVD player, a la Hollywood plus (which I've also owned). They just output whatever is on the desktop - so for DVD playback use PowerDVD and maximise the picture.


-l33t

[SimonSez07]

the feature people are talking about is called (by ati) "overlay theater mode" which as far as i understand is similar to matrox's "dvdmax"

when 'theater mode' is enabled on a radeon card the normal desktop clone will be displayed on the tv until a video overlay is detected (meaning a software player is playing a video using the video cards hardware acceleration ie. overlay). then the tv display is automatically switched to displaying that video full screen w/ overscan (no black borders) and at *EXCELLENT* quality. as far as i understand if you minimize stop or close the player the overlay goes away and the tv goes back to displaying a clone of the desktop.

this is one of the best features i have ever seen on tv-out cards and works absolutely flawlessly for playing divx and dvds (using powerdvd or the like) at as good or better quality than stand-alones and holywood+. its perfect for when you have a tv near your pc and want to sit back and watch a divx on it.

to answer the other question about removing the black bars many of you have mentioned in this thread from normal tv-out cards you need to enable 'overscan' which sometimes takes some driver tricks or registry hacks depending on the video card. i know its possible on most ati and nvidia cards. enabling this feature will give you *MUCH* better tv-out quality than anything that does not use overscan especially for viewing movies full screen.

-simon

[cult]

rage3d tweak has an option for overscan and some other goodies for dvd and mmc

[SimonSez07]

in reference to overlay theater mode, nvidia has a similar option called 'full screen mirroring' on the overlay controls in the driver settings. before enabling this option set the tv to clone under nView display mode and set the tv resolution to 640 x 480 under device settings -> resolution and enable overscan by dragging the size slider all the way to the right under device settings -> screen adjustments.