Question about the MKV container

[froggy1]

Hi,

As I have been encoding stuff in the past and I only used the AVI container so far, I want to switch to some of the new containers like MP4 or MKV. I'm interested in MKV as it supports AC3 audio and I can just copy the audio from the DVDs and then mux the resulting AVI to the MKV container easily. However, I have a small question regarding MKV.

The AVI container is a widely used one and is probably going to be used in the future. If I'm not mistaken, AVI is the most used container today when it comes to backing-up stuff (read: encoding DVDs). Now my question about the MKV container is what guarantees (if any) do I have that this container will still be there and supported in say 10 or 15 years from now. I don't want to backup my stuff here to MKV only to find out in 10 or 15 years from now that this container is dead and no player will play it or recognize the files. IIRC, the AVI container was created in 1992 and today, after so many years, there's no clear indication that it's dying so AVI will probably exist and be supported for many years to come. I'm very well aware of the limitations the AVI container has when it comes to modern codecs like H.264, but I'm also aware that (virtually) all players support AVI and are going to do so in the future. Is there something going on in the Matroska camp to push it and make it a standardized container so it will not be extinguished in say 10 or 15 years from now?

Thanks in advance

[mitsubishi]

I really wouldn't worry about not being able to use mkv (on a PC). Even when PC architecture and OS's have moved so far that current tools no longer natively work, there will be enthusiasts making new ones and even if there isn't then a 2030 PC will be able to run an X86 emulator/virtual machine at such a speed that will be able to convert terabytes of files a minute. Just look at the bizarre projects around today emulating rare old computers etc and the amount of computer literate people coding opensource software will be exponentially larger then.

[froggy1]

I think you make good points (how didn't I think of that :p). Another question. I'm always lurking here on this forum and from the impression I get, a lot of people prefer MKV over MP4. Why is that? Is it because it supports AC3 or is it because it's technically superior to MP4?

[Blue_MiSfit]

Well, it's less a matter of being superior. MKV is a bit more flexible in that it can store almost anything. MP4 has much better hardware support. It's a tradeoff :)

I love MKV..

~MiSfit

[Dark Shikari]

I think you make good points (how didn't I think of that :p). Another question. I'm always lurking here on this forum and from the impression I get, a lot of people prefer MKV over MP4. Why is that? Is it because it supports AC3 or is it because it's technically superior to MP4?
MP4 is a lot like WMV in that its very restricted in what can be stored in it.

MKV is a lot like AVI in that you can store basically anything in it (in terms of codecs).

[froggy1]

OK, I've made up my mind, will use MKV as of now :D

thanks guys

[Shinigami-Sama]

OK, I've made up my mind, will use MKV as of now :D

thanks guys

mkv is also an open standard
and with this open push we're seeing in the computing industry I'll say its a safe bet that it'll be around for a long time

[froggy1]

mkv is also an open standard
and with this open push we're seeing in the computing industry I'll say its a safe bet that it'll be around for a long time

yeah, I'm all Linux here too.. :D

[Shinigami-Sama]

yeah, I'm all Linux here too.. :D

I'm talking things like zimbra but that works as well :D

[PuzZLeR]

MKV is the superior container simply because it supports - can "contain" - more formats. Virtually any audio/video codec supported by AVI and MP4 is a subset of what's supported in MKV.

Unfortunately the tradeoff that Blue_MiSfit mentions is true. Virtually all decoders/playback devices that support MKV are a subset of those that also support MP4. The inferior MP4 container has won big support throughout, I guess because of the ISO and Apple's backing of it. Sadly, being a "standards guy", it has become my choice. But that's me.

As for AC3 source audio - encoding to AAC, a superior audio codec, even at a lower bitrate, does produce an almost identical experience nevertheless. At least to me.

And I would stay away from AVI for H.264 since, as you know, can't handle it fully. For example, the H.264 standard allows up to 16 MRFs - and the AVI container can't "naturally" see that far. As well, it will suck for HD content due to its 4GB limit. ODML AVI? Waste of time... But since MS created AVI, we will see it around for a while yet...

I personally think that MKV turns off major electronics manufacturers due to its "hardcore" type of following. It doesn't seem to have a commercial appeal to them for some reason, so I don't see support for it on devices any time soon. Yes, sad.

My advice? If you like MKV then great. Use it. It will be supported on PCs for a very long time. If ever, things go from worse to worst, and MKV has zero support in the future, there is absolutely no problem when there are, and will be, mux batching tools that will easily remux your video into other containers - even at lightning speed in the near future.

[PuzZLeR]

MKV is a lot like AVI in that you can store basically anything in it (in terms of codecs).What else were you thinking of shoving in it? :p

[Shinigami-Sama]

What else were you thinking of shoving in it? :p

insane amounts of metadata?

whole audio CDs albums? discographies?

[PuzZLeR]

...errr, yeah, of course! :) I was thinking of images, lyrics, multiple audio tracks, subtitles, etc..

What do you think I was thinking of?:confused:
:p:p:p

[froggy1]

mmm.. I read some time ago, (I think it was on the mkvtoonix site itself) that there are a few hardware manufacturer coming out with players which support MKV. If my memory serves me correct, it was a Australian firm launching a MKV hardware player which also supports MP4. If that's true, then it's really great news, although I don't really care as my multimedia system is my PC :)

[foxyshadis]

Betaboy from corecodec has been banging the mkv hardware "next quarter" drum for a few years. Just recently posted news on new ones that may even show up someday.

mkv is steadily becoming a defacto standard for pirated HD, though, which means hardware support will show up the same way it did for avi eventually.

[Dark Shikari]

mkv is steadily becoming a defacto standard for pirated HD
Official scene rules say: It already is! (http://rules.nukenet.info/t.html?id=2007_X264v2.nfo)

[SealTooGreat]

Official scene rules say: It already is! (http://rules.nukenet.info/t.html?id=2007_X264v2.nfo)

Who wrote that rule?!

[Shinigami-Sama]

I was wondering about scene rules...
but thats not the scope of the forum eh

but I guess its a good thing its the standard

[mitsubishi]

Who wrote that rule?!

The scene groups involved are at the bottom.

mkv is steadily becoming a defacto standard for pirated HD, though, which means hardware support will show up the same way it did for avi eventually.

This is my "Build it and they will come" philosophy. Possibly future players will have open-source linux based OS's so we can add support for things which don't require additional hardware (might even be a nice way to side-step licensing fees :sly:)

[Dr.Khron]

Hey Blue, let me fix that for you...

MKV is a bit more flexible in that it can store almost anything. MP4 has much better hardware support.

MKV is a bit more flexible in that it can store almost anything. MP4 works on Ipods.

Since I'm a HTPC guy, I'm a big fan of MKV... However, it makes no sense to ignore the 500 Lb gorilla in the room. Yes, there are other hardware players that play MP4, but compared to Ipod they have almost no market share.

Ever since I taught my woman to make her own encodes for her Ipod, I've been considering switching to MP4... if only to keep all the files on the HTPC in a consistent format.


As for that link to "scene rules"...
Holy crap, I'd heard about that, but never seen any details... Some people take this stuff WAY too seriously.

If the details are that important to you, then just encode your own damn rips...

[Dark Shikari]

Since I'm a HTPC guy, I'm a big fan of MKV... However, it makes no sense to ignore the 500 Lb gorilla in the room. Yes, there are other hardware players that play MP4, but compared to Ipod they have almost no market share.

Ever since I taught my woman to make her own encodes for her Ipod, I've been considering switching to MP4... if only to keep all the files on the HTPC in a consistent format.
iPod only supports a very limited subset of H.264 though, so I don't think its related; any video made for the iPod will have to be specifically re-encoded for that purpose to begin with, meaning the iPod's support for MP4 won't likely affect the use of MP4 over MKV anywhere else.


As for that link to "scene rules"...
Holy crap, I'd heard about that, but never seen any details... Some people take this stuff WAY too seriously.

If the details are that important to you, then just encode your own damn rips...
Learn a bit about topsites, nuking, etc... its a very strict system with strong competition, which is why the ripping groups are so successful in getting out 0-days.

[Alosaur]

And I would stay away from AVI for H.264 since, as you know, can't handle it fully. For example, the H.264 standard allows up to 16 MRFs - and the AVI container can't "naturally" see that far.

Your claim about reference frames isn't true. Reference frames are no issue for AVI and akupenguin also told you this a month ago, yet you keep repeating it.

As well, with multiple reference frames in H.264, as high as 16, AVI can't naturally "see" that far. There is enough wrong with AVI that you don't have to invent new problems (but most of them apply no matter what codec you use). Multiple reference frames have nothing to do with it. The _only_ feature of H.264 that's incompatible with AVI is B-frames.

Quoted from: http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1024944&postcount=8

It would be nice if you would stop repeating this bit of misinformation.

[bond]

MKV is the superior container simply because it supports - can "contain" - more formats. Virtually any audio/video codec supported by AVI and MP4 is a subset of what's supported in MKV.mp4 supports menus (look here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=117574))

apart from that you can store whatever you want in mp4. its just not part of the mpeg-4 standard.

just because there is nothing like a mpeg-4 standard for mkv doesnt make it superior

[Dark Shikari]

apart from that you can store whatever you want in mp4. its just not part of the mpeg-4 standard.... which means almost nothing, hardware or software, will support it, because its nonstandard.

[Alosaur]

... which means almost nothing, hardware or software, will support it, because its nonstandard.

Not true. There are companies like Nero who support nonstandard things inside of mp4.

[SeeMoreDigital]

How about moving this thread into the New and alternative a/v containers (http://forum.doom9.org/forumdisplay.php?f=74) section of the forum?

[bond]

... which means almost nothing, hardware or software, will support it, because its nonstandard.same goes for mkv. things will only be supported if someone supports it...

[tre31]

Learn a bit about topsites, nuking, etc... its a very strict system with strong competition, which is why the ripping groups are so successful in getting out 0-days.

The rules are designed too stop the rls of crap, and it works - crap gets nuked. That being said they do however provide a good guide for basic encoding, but if you want the best results its better too understand what you're doing (it takes time).

[plane]

I personally think that MKV turns off major electronics manufacturers due to its "hardcore" type of following. It doesn't seem to have a commercial appeal to them for some reason, so I don't see support for it on devices any time soon. Yes, sad.


http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.matroska.devel/3401

I just noticed that there is a Singapore manufacturer going to support h.264 mkv in their next new SAP.