TSCV -> To Doom9

[24hourloop]

Doom,

I am trying to reproduce your TSCV guide with partial success. Your guide mentions you were not able to import Chapterextractor data. I was successful in doing so by loading the plugin, selecting the movie, selecting 'Chapters', Selecting 'Plugins' and then 'Chapterextractor Chapter Import', pasting the Chapterextractor raw data into the window that pops up and then selecting 'Send to TSCV'. Voila.

The chapters show up. They seem to be in the right place and they show up in the menu structure. Then I select 'Add Menu'. One of the things that the guide forgets to mention is the fact that a dialog will pop up that prompts you for a file that TMPGenc will convert into an MPEG that then shows up in the window.

So far so good. Then your guide says:

-----------
More about navigation later on, let's create a nice chapter menu first: To do that, select the main movie, then press the Menu Generator button.
------------

When you select the main movie the Menu Generator button is greyed out for me. However, when I select the menu it is not and I click it.

However, what pops up looks quite different from what your screenshots show. First of all, two windows pop up. Then no chapters show. The background is properly displayed but the whole left side of the dialog (above and to the right of the chapter list) looks different.

Obviously, from this point on I am messed up. Any ideas? I am running XP. I use the version that is linked to from the guide ...

[Doom9]

How about once you did the chaptering you go to the menu tab again, click on the main movie, then go to the menu generator tab and click "generate motion menu"?

also.. I did not see that "'Send to TSCV'" option in the ChapterXtractor plugin.. where is it? And.. what is the raw data exactly? last lines from the main tab, or some stuff from the format tab?

[24hourloop]

Well,

eventually I got this to work, sort of.
There are quite a few omissions and probably misexplanations in the guide. If you want to know I can go through it and try to point them out. There is also an acceptable guide at http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/r/d/rdm186/guide2/.

What your screenshots seem to indicate is that you build a bunch of submenus (which at first I did as well) but that isn't really what you want. You want to create a main menu that kicks in when you insert the CD, just like the DVD.

Anyhow,

this thing is great and sucks at the same time. It has a lot of bugs and I had to start over from scratch many times. The SVCD preview is about as off as can be.

But back to my original problem:

For some reason, when you select the Movie in the menu tab the menu generator button is greyed out. I doubt that is supposed to be this way. So what I wound up doing is using the pulldown menu at the top to get to the menu creation. From there things work almost as described, except that the previews really do not preview anything (Actually, after you have generated the menu these buttons erase the preview. Very odd.

On the other hand this tool is great at misleading you. When under the menu tab you select the menu and then hit the Menu Generator button it prompts you for background and then pops up almost the same thing as what you get when you select the movie and the pulldown menu - except that there are no chapters. I have no idea what that is good for.

I could also never load subripper chapters. It just came back. The guy from the above URL apparently had the same problem. When I used the plugin I did the following:

Select the movie in the Menu tab. Hit the chapters tab. Pull down 'Plugins' -> 'Chapterextractor chapter import'. A dialog will pop up where you can paste the data from the chapterextractor raw data. There are two buttons close to the bottom right. One of them says 'Convert', the other one says 'Send to TSCV' (But it is greyed out). You have to select the type of source (frame rate), click convert and then you can click 'Send to TSCV'.

However, what I noticed was that the chapter times progressively ran off. Since it builds a preview of the chapter time a second too early can be very annoying. However, this probably can be fixed by playing with the time offset box.

When I finally burned I saw something along these lines (which, I believe, is due to the fact that all of this stretches the SVCD standard:

a.) My standalone properly responded to the number keys. WinDVD did not.
b.) My Standalone looped the motion menu too short, WinDVD did it right.
c.) Both went to the expected chapter locations when using 'PREV' and 'NEXT'.

The whole thing is very neat but not quite there yet. Too many 'Zugriffsverletzungen'. Stuff really doesn't work the way you expect it to work. Everything could tremendouly benefit from a reworked user interface.

[jj59]

Vitualis mentioned in this thread

http://forums.vcdimager.org/viewtopic.php?topic=40&forum=2&1

that the with TMPGenc encoded stills are non-compliant.

BTW the 0.7.12 release is out with sources

version 0.7.12 (unstable/development)
=====================================
2002-01-04

* improved support for SVCD- and CVD-style subtitles
* new conversion tool cdxa2mpeg added
* minor subheader change for SPI area
* create 150 sector post-gap ("leadout pregap") by default
* fixed compilation with linux kernel headers prior to 2.2.16
* switched to new automake/conf versions

jj

[24hourloop]

Tried to get the latest TSCV version. Unfortunately http://tscv.wonderingraven.net/ seems to be dead ...

[jj59]

Doom9 has put in on his full software page under support utils.
I believe it's the last version the Xmas release 0.83 beta release 1.

jj

[Doom9]

omissions and misexplanations? I don't think it will do you any good explaining the obvious and I pretty much had to re-create my project from scratch as I couldn't build it because TSCV screwed up the naming conventions so I doubt there are serious problems with that guide.

about your problems: it may very well be that the problem lies with the player rather than authoring programs.. svcd is not really fully supported in any player.. it's just no big deal to add basic svcd support so many (especially far eastern ) manufacturers do it.. but that doesn't mean they support the full specs. My 3rd player for instance (only one that even plays svcds) can't handle subs or mpeg2 multichannel, and both is part of the svcd specs.

btw: what version were you using?

also.. you say that my menu structure isn't "what you want"... well it may not be what you personally want but it it exactly what I want. I have the main motion menu that will play the main movie if I press "1" or "next" and will bring up the chapter selection when I press "2" I know that due to svcd restrictions the navigation isn't as obvious as when you have a DVD menu to but manually edit every frame of the main menu and put in a numer 1 and 2 was just too much work for me and I care more about it working than being perfect. After all.. I don't get paid to do this

[24hourloop]

Doom,

no offense meant. This is a pretty tricky program and UI tried to follow your guide closely. There were some things that confused. That's all. I will try to explain what mislead me in a second.

I am using Build 4622 although I found out today there is a newer version.

You are correct that I think the problem is with the players. The program very much stretches the standard to its limits. My guess is that in a number of soft- and hardware players it uis either not completely or incorrectly implemented.

Back to the guide:

The guide says:

The next thing we're going to do is create some menus. At first I have a motion menu which is basically the same as the repeating sequence in the matrix menu where you can select to start the movie, select chapters, languages or go to the extras.

This implied to me that what I would see was what would happen in a DVD - i.e. pop it in and see the menu. However, what happens is that if you follow the guide you will get a black screen and have to push a button to get the menu (Correct me if I am wrong). I thought that was odd.

Maybe it was obvious but then you mention that you will get a black screen (which is correct). However, the screen shot above shows a cool screen layout. I didn't really make the connection initially. Ok, I am a little slow, I guess.

However, the most confusing thing that the program gave me (and you apparently didn't run into and therefore not mentioned) is that when you point to the CD icon under 'Menu' and then click on the 'Add Menu' button (sorry, but this seemed like the most intuitive thing for me to do) it pops up a dialog prompting for 'All usable files', which will turn into some background. What it is exactly for I shall never know. I selected one of the files in the TSCV background folder.

Essentially what happens is that it calls TMPGenc to convert a still and then pops up a couple of messages that the still menu has been created.

From that point on my screen looked just like yours, i.e. I have a 'MAINMENU' on the menu page.

Your page then says:

More about navigation later on, let's create a nice chapter menu first: To do that, select the main movie, then press the Menu Generator button.

Well, that didn't work for me at all. As soon as I selected the movie the Menu Generator button was grayed out. What worked was using the 'Menu Generator' pulldown and then selecting 'Menu Generator for Motion Menu'. Since the screen shots for the guide are from the same TSCV version that I have I cannot imagine that what you described actually worked.

So what I did was select 'MAINMENU' and then push the 'Menu Generator' button (which at that point was not greyed out). This takes me to something that sort-of looks like your screenshot below, just without chapters.

I am just mentioning this for your review, use it with a grain of salt. Maybe you had another Build but the same version (although I downloaded it the same day from your site).

And just like yourself TSCV got quite confused at times about what it was that I was trying to do and I had to start from scratch, generally with the program crashing and me having to remove it via the task manager (since it wouldn't go away).

[legman]

The more i read this, the more i am happy i rushed out my very basic tutorial.

I felt the basics of this wonderful program needed to be understood before moving on to the more advanced stuff.

The problem here is you doon9, lol. Your guides are not perfect and they are geared towards the advanced user. What the hell are we going to do with you. You are pretty stuck in your ways. ;)

I guess we will have to poke around with the assistance of your guides and have some fun discovering things.

others: I hope feeding your family is not something that will not happen if you fail learn something here as fast as possible.

OS, box, software version and the source media can all cause encoding/authoring/editing programs to respond differently.

Those of us that have been here a little while know that doom0 can't possibly deal with every situation. We have to take it upon ourselves to figure out what we can. If you have a mistake that you know he made, all you have to do is research it and explain it clearly to him. If valid, he will modify docs. Please understand that he can have 5 perfect tutorials or 50 decent ones. He only has so much time. If you really feel that a mistake has been made, please spend as much time putting together facts and thoughts as he did.

Now I will reread my last sentence as a reminder to myself.

[Doom9]

The guide says:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The next thing we're going to do is create some menus. At first I have a motion menu which is basically the same as the repeating sequence in the matrix menu where you can select to start the movie, select chapters, languages or go to the extras.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This implied to me that what I would see was what would happen in a DVD - i.e. pop it in and see the menu. However, what happens is that if you follow the guide you will get a black screen and have to push a button to get the menu (Correct me if I am wrong). I thought that was odd.


actually.. the screenshots show a menu that I tested.. first you get the first play item which is the first 30 secs or so of the main matrix menu where there's no selection, then it goes to my main menu and start looping that.. and there you have the 4 options on the screen.. you cannot select them as on the dvd but have to press the numerical buttons to start something but it does work the way I intended it to work. Needless to say it took me 3 tries to get this working the way I wanted.. at first vcdxbuild bugged out after 2 seconds only.

However, the most confusing thing that the program gave me (and you apparently didn't run into and therefore not mentioned) is that when you point to the CD icon under 'Menu' and then click on the 'Add Menu' button (sorry, but this seemed like the most intuitive thing for me to do) it pops up a dialog prompting for 'All usable files', which will turn into some background. What it is exactly for I shall never know. I selected one of the files in the TSCV background folder.

Essentially what happens is that it calls TMPGenc to convert a still and then pops up a couple of messages that the still menu has been created.
quote from the guide on that: As you can see the new menu has been added to the CD structure.

Now to conclude our example let's create a still menu as well.

To do that, simply press Add Menu again and select a bitmap image. TSCV will then launch TMPG to create an mpg file from the image and add it to the disc structure.

IF you select a bmp tmpg will indeed run, convert it to an mpg and add it, but that's what I wrote in the guide and that's all that happens on my box.

But if you select an mpg file that contains a movie it will run a check on the mpg then say something like "Motion menu found" and add it.

As for your chapter menu confusion you still haven't told me if it works if you only add and chapter the main movie, then select the main movie, go to the MenuGen tab (2 to the right) and select create motion menu.. that's another way to go at it.

and you know.. tscv along with some advanced dvd authoring tools are so complicated that they require you to play around and try stuff for your own.. the guide can always only be a guideline how to go at things and if something doesn't quite work as planned it may well be that you missed a very small detail.

[24hourloop]

The problem is that things are just getting more and more complex. Ripping a DVD and making a VCD is a process every moron can master in 15 minutes. SVCD took more diligence. Deinterlacing came into the picture. Pulldown. Frame rate conversion.

But now we are into chapters, subtitles, multiple audio tracks, menus (even *motion* menus).

DVD2SVCD will do a great job when you want a paricular thing. But when you stray and want to get creative you have to do much of that by hand. That's when it gets hairy.

SVCD has been pushed about as far as compatibility will let it go. When it gets interesting again is when DVD burning will become affordable. Then the whole DVD mastering will begin and a whole new world of possibilities will open up.

[Doom9]

this is the 3rd and last time I'm going to insist that you try the method of creating an animated chapter menu as explained by me in this thread 2 times before.. add the main movie, do chapters, select the main movie, go to the menugen tab, select create motion menu, add a background, change to chapter mode and see what you get. I'm 99% that the rest of my stuff is correct because I did that again on the day I wrote the guide.. I did the animated menu a couple about a week earlier so it may be that the way I described in the guide may not work and the way I described here for the 3rd time now is the way I originally created that damned menu. So.. please help me out there.. I can't improve if people don't help me.

[Doom9]

bump... 24hourloop.. could you read my last post please? I will go over tscv again and test some more but as I stated before.. besides the animated chapter menu the stuff should work.. nobody was able to point out obvious programming flaws..

[mrbass]

I used to ftp host (one of many) legman's 3 divx tutorials. He made it look so easy. TSCV just isn't that intuitive. So anyway writing any sort of guide for it will be questioned I'm sure. Last time I tried motion menus I said to myself. "I think I'll try this TSCV for making motion menus in about 6 months from now." Only about 4 months left to go...

[taudule]

@jj59
>>Vitualis mentioned in this thread
>>http://forums.vcdimager.org/viewtopic.php?topic=40&forum=2&1
>>that the with TMPGenc encoded stills are non-compliant.

THANK YOU !!!! for the link.
I've been trying for a while to do still menus, and it didn't work well on my Thomson DTH4200, neither with Nero nor TSCV.

With this method :
http://www.geocities.com/mikk999/VCDStills.htm
And TSCV using the Stills created by the philips VCD toolkit, i just created a SVCD with several menus that plays perfectly.

To use TSCV to create compliant Stills, do the following :

- Load mpegs one by one, and for each, prepare the chapters, then save them using the [Save chapters] button.

- generate the Still Menu using the [Generate Menu] in the [MenuGen] tab.

- Just after that, take the "bmp" in the "seq" directory of TSCV, crop it to 704x576 (if PAL), and use it to generate the still, using the method described by mikk999.

- Replace the still mpeg created by TSVC/tmpGenc by this one.

- Do this for each mpeg, and also for the main menu, and the mpeg menu.

- Then, [CTRL N] in TSVC.

- Menu tab

- Add your Still Menus in the correct order and hierarchy.

- Under the mpeg menus, add the corresponding mpegs, and from the [Chapters] tab, reload the chapters you saved at first.

- Verify the "Select ref" items, they should'nt need modification, except for the chapters Still Menus of each mpeg: for them , just copy the "select ref" of the mpeg below.

Well, easy, isn't it ?

O.

[24hourloop]

Originally posted by Doom9
bump... 24hourloop.. could you read my last post please? I will go over tscv again and test some more but as I stated before.. besides the animated chapter menu the stuff should work.. nobody was able to point out obvious programming flaws..

Doom,

will do today. Sorry, I should have followed up since I posted this to you in the first place. Sigh, if I only didn't have a real job ...

[jj59]

HVR has put an experimental service for encoding still images over the web.
http://www.vcdimager.org/stillencode/

jj

[Doom9]

I went over the tscv guide again... as far as I can tell the linking in the old guide is correct, I created a new disc having 2 animated chapter selection menu, 1 still chapter selection menu, a looping main menu and several chapters (somebody please paste some lines of the chapterxtractor file here that the chapterxtractor plugin can actually parse.. I can only convince it to work when I only paste frame numbers), and it all works in the tscv preview player (though that player only plays the first menu, then all you get to see is the menu names but all the selections work as they are supposed to), and the same applies to windvd... I have no svcd standalone player here.. but last time I did it.. windvd somehow didn't quite accept my project, but now it did so I presume this is it. I'll now start rewriting the guide but I need your input about the chapterxtractor plugin...

[jj59]

Sefy is mentioning in his guide
http://www.vcdhelp.com/DVDConversionGuide/index.php?id=dvdtovcd4b.html#TSCV
that the import of chapter in the 0.83 build doesn't match the earlier versions of TSCV and that the chapters from chapter-x-tractor can be loaded from a prior made file.

jj

[Doom9]

thanks.. now that wasn't obvious, was it? tscv needs major work and a lot of bugfixes (I discovered a lot of bugs). But.. tomorrow I have a completely new guide for you, guaranteed to work (both the tscv preview and windvd work.. and all of it works.. I wrote the guide while I proceeded with my project, and I checked my menus thoroughly). stay tuned.