What codec to use for ARCHIVING video ?

[rohan]

I work with uncompressed video files in virtualdub a lot, and I'm looking for an appropriate codec to use for archiving them once I'm done with a project.

Right now I'm using Lossless Motion Jpeg through ffdshow.

Speed of encoding/decoding is not entirely important, because basically I will convert these files to the archive format when I'm done using them, and if I ever need them again (which I probably won't), I'll decompress them and work from the uncompressed files again.

Lossless (or close to it) is important. Obviously the compression factor is a consideration as well.

Suggestions?

[gzarkadas]

Huffyuv and / or Lagarith may be suitable. However, taking into account the time that you will have to spend for doing the encodes, ensuring that all went well and managing the files, it may well worth to spend a few more bucks to buy external hard drive(s) and do a simple copy instead.

[foxyshadis]

How long? A year, a decade, a century? You can find some good information in this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=124052).

[rohan]

It's not a big deal in this case to leave the archiving encode running for 2 or 3 days. Ditto with decoding. The chances of ever needing this material again are incredibly slight, but high enough to justify having a backup just in case (to avoid reshooting for a client). It's mostly interior video for high end virtual tours - so 95% of the time, once it's done, it's done for good.

Should Huffyuv and / or Lagarith give me better compression ratios than Lossless Motion Jpeg?

I've tried huffyuv, and I seem to remember the output being larger than Lossless Motion JPEG from ffdshow.

[rohan]

Ok, for those that are interested, I tried HuffyUV, Logarith, Lossless MJpeg (ffdshow), and compared them to uncompressed.

828 mb - Lossless MJpeg (through ffdshow)
841 mb - Logarith
1,444 mb - HuffyUV
3,495 mb - Uncompressed

I'm wondering if Lossless MJpeg from ffdshow might not really be lossless? I didn't think it was that great of a codec, but clearly is the best in my mini-shootout.

[rohan]

To add something further -

Lossless 264 (also through ffdshow) gets the file down to 525mb, but really doesn't look lossless - in almost appears to have decreased the number of colors (it looks like when you convert an image to 256 colors - although not nearly as drastic)

[FishTank]

only uncompressed is truly lossless.

huffyuv is 2nd, then MJPEG.

imho it makes no sense to encode a mjpeg file to huffyuv because
the file will get larger and you wont gain quality (it cant get better then the source).
the only filetype i can think of that is smaler then mjpeg and
not toooo lossy is DV.

[Revgen]

To add something further -

Lossless 264 (also through ffdshow) gets the file down to 525mb, but really doesn't look lossless - in almost appears to have decreased the number of colors (it looks like when you convert an image to 256 colors - although not nearly as drastic)

How are you viewing the video?

If you're viewing it though FFDshow than I suggest using VLC Player instead.

Also the most efficient lossless codec in terms of size is MSU's Lossless codec. However, it is very very slow to encode and decode.

[rohan]

FishTank - Sorry, I've explained this poorly.

The SOURCE is uncompressed. MJpeg just happens to be one of the archival formats I've tried. However, any archival encodes would be made from uncompressed sources.


Revgen - I've been viewing the lossless 264 in mplayer classic (using ffdshow), as well as in virtualdub itself when I test reverting the 264 lossless back to uncompressed (also uses ffdshow).

If I need to use VLC in order to properly see the lossless 264 in all its glory, then that won't be a good solution for me anyway - because vdub will also use ffdshow, and thus prevent me from doing a good conversion back to uncompressed.

[reepa]

only uncompressed is truly lossless.

HuffYUV has an RGB encoding option, in case you were referring to the YUV-RGB conversion making it lossy.

[rohan]

No, actually its the lossless 264 (through ffdshow) that I'm finding to be lossy.

[FishTank]

makes more sense that way. sorry i missunderstood =p

now you know why its still cheaper to make hollywood movies
on reels then digital LOL

[delacroixp]

I have a friend Andrew, a video editor who has terabytes of raw video footage... mostly sub 10GB clips, which has become a very real storage problem...
He archives into MKV which is also used as source material for his projects...
He uses AutoMKV with the 18-CQ-CRF profile and mp4a (set to 50)... which gives about one-quarter filesize...


Hi. Its Pascal's friend Andrew. Im a video editer and work with raw avi in Premiere 2.0 . MKV, I find to be a fantastic compression/quaility codec.
I archive with mkv. I have a problem that I cant seem to solve:

A) I use it to archive used footage and find it a problem converting back to MS Raw DVI

B) I can do it in Premiere but problems do crop in and would like a know if there be a dedicated interface to do this conversion from mkv -> MS raw avi or any form of raw avi

Thanks & do have a good weekend!


EDIT: @delacroixp
in automkv load your file and then in advanced settings in ffmpeg output choose DV


:):D:eek:
Pascal

[DmitryPopov]

There is a comparison of different lossless codecs:
http://compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/lossless_codecs_2007_en.html

Best compression is YULS (even slower than MSU :) ). Then go MSU and FFV1..

[rohan]

Great chart - however, no "Lossless Motion JPEG"

I'm starting to wonder - is the "Lossless Motion JPEG" codec that I keep running into in FFDSHOW not taken seriously as an archiving codec? Is there good reason for that?

In all my tests (against MSU, Logarith, HuffyUV, and FFV1) it's getting me smaller file sizes. It looks lossless to me, and certainly FFDSHOW labels it as such.

Why don't I see other people ranting and raving about it? It seems too good to be true, there must be a catch, otherwise this would be the hands down definitive choice (it's fast to encode too)

1,168 mb with LOGARITH
1,054 mb with MSU
1,208 mb with HuffyUV
856 mb with Lossless Motion Jpeg

That's a huge difference, and most of my tests are yielding similar results... I don't get it.

[rohan]

Wups, to clarify -

I've been calling it "Lossless Motion Jpeg", but I've realized that FFDSHOW actually calls it "Lossless Jpeg"

[Dark Shikari]

Lagarith has an RGB option also so it can be truly lossless.

[DmitryPopov]

Did anyone checked "Lossless JPEG" for being lossless?
It can be an ordinary JPEG with all quantization coeffs set to 1, so it would be just visually lossless..