eac3to - audio conversion tool [Archive] - Page 2

xkodi

28th June 2007, 20:35

@madshi and @ACrowley

do you know how to distinct DirectShow filter from DMO? i'm asking this, because i think that Sonic decoder 4.3 is DMO and it's not DirectShow filter, because with both MLP and TrueHD there are a lot of "discontinuities" :

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/8274/sonicdiscos3.png (http://imageshack.us)

and in text on msdn.microsoft.com i've read something like:

When a DMO, which was not designed to work in DirectShow, receives the DISCONTINUITY flag, it performs a flush and loses the data stored. To work around this issue, the best solution is probably to write a custom DMO Wrapper filter that does not set the DISCONTINUITY flag.

so maybe Sonic 4.3 is DMO and some buffer are flushed and thus from time to time random values are send on the filter output and that results in noise, it affects only the TrueHD implementation, because there are a lot of "discontinuities" when playing MLP too, but the sound is normal.

i don't know if there are any DMO wrapper DirectShow filters available, that can be tried with Sonic 4.3 filter or how to know for sure that it is DMO ...

[EDIT] using 'InterVideo Container DMO' connected to the output of Sonic audio 4.3 fixed the "discontinuities" errors, but sound still has noise ...

madshi

29th June 2007, 11:35

using 'InterVideo Container DMO' connected to the output of Sonic audio 4.3 fixed the "discontinuities" errors, but sound still has noise ...
Too bad. It sounded promising... :(

madshi

29th June 2007, 11:47

eac3to 1.9 released:

http://madshi.net/eac3to.zip

Most important new features:
(1) multi channel mono wav output added
(2) automated SurCode DTS encoding added

Full list of changes:
(1) 24bit PCM handling works now (was buggy before)
(2) "-blu-ray" option removed
(3) with PCM input files "bigendian" is default now
(4) with 5.1 PCM input blu-ray style channel remapping is default now
(5) switches "-16" and "-24" are valid for both TrueHD and PCM input now
(6) eac3to now creates the WAV files on its own instead of using sox
(7) target extension ".wavs" results in one mono wav for each channel being created
(8) SurCode DVD DTS encoding automation added
(9) new options "-768" and "-1536" for DTS encoding
(10) TrueHD output is not downconverted to 16bit by default, anymore.
(11) new option "-down16" downconverts the raw data from 24 -> 16 bit (not limited to TrueHD input)
Due to the many changes I did to the code, some new bugs may appear. Please let me know about any problems you run into.

For Blu-Ray PCM you can now get multiple mono wavs or a DTS encoding simply by doing:

"eac3to source.pcm dest.wavs"
"eac3to source.pcm dest.dts"

No additional parameters are needed, unless eac3to fails to automatically detect the bitdepth. In that case you need to specify "-16" or "-24".

My apologies to The_Keymaker, cause he has to redo the option checkboxes so often...

madshi

29th June 2007, 11:48

I can say :eac3to fails (for me)on these 24bit lpcm
Fixed in eac3to 1.9. Thanks for the sample!

honai

29th June 2007, 12:06

@madshi

Great work, thank you so much for filling that request! Your dedication is very much appreciated!

Beastie Boy

29th June 2007, 12:18

Many thanks madshi, the mono wave output is just what I need.
The_Keymaker, over to you... :) :thanks:

Cheers, Beastie.

ACrowley

29th June 2007, 12:39

Fixed in eac3to 1.9. Thanks for the sample!

nice madhsi...i will try it:)

Otherwise i found a 100% working Method for any LPCM24 bit to whatever

Mono wave output is what i need so i can feed Steinberg Nuendo without a extra Step

great work!
@xskodi i dont know a DMO wrapper...
Yes, all my tested mlp sounds normal in any dshow Player. But in TrueHD theres still noise with Sonic 4.3 Decoder
However, Nero works so far

crapz0rs

29th June 2007, 17:42

I have surcode 1.0.2.3 installed, but the dts creating doesn't work.
Audio Decoder output was 24 bit this time.
Convert the multi channel raw file to mono wav files. Please wait...
Convert the mono wav files to dts. Please wait...
Creating the DTS file failed. The multi channel wav files are valid, though.
Encoding the 6 mono wavs in surcode works fine though :-)

madshi

29th June 2007, 19:04

madshi

29th June 2007, 19:19

New version uploaded, same link as before. Please check the version information (right click on eac3to.exe -> properties). It must be "1.9.0.2". Hopefully DTS encoding works now.

crapz0rs

29th June 2007, 19:48

Audio Decoder output was 24 bit this time.
Convert the multi channel raw file to mono wav files. Please wait...
Convert the mono wav files to dts. Please wait...
Done. :thanks:

ACrowley

30th June 2007, 08:53

@madshi

LPCM 24Bit to wave works now! nice...

But the flac Problem still exits for me

24Bit LPCM to 24Bit flac results in a flac which has the same Size as the raw! Strange...
On the Sample both 24Bit Files are 90MB
On a 6.7GB LPCM the FLAc from eac3to is 6.7GB too

I tried all combinations again on the same sample
So i use Audacity 1.3.3 to encode to flac 24bit

2 Questions:

1. Are you using Besiled 0.3 at the end of the dts chain to fix dts output? I think so...
Maybe you can remember, we talked about via PN

eact3to dts encode works with all 16 and 24bit Sources

2. Whne i convert a lpcm.raw to wave with -Bluray, the Message "remapping channes" will not longer appear ?
Output wave has correct channelmapping

honai

30th June 2007, 12:58

Besliced 0.3 at the end of the dts chain to fix dts output

What exactly is happening at this step? How is the DTS stream from Surcode erroneous?

madshi

30th June 2007, 13:04

But the flac Problem still exits for me

24Bit LPCM to 24Bit flac results in a flac which has the same Size as the raw! Strange...
On the Sample both 24Bit Files are 90MB
On a 6.7GB LPCM the FLAc from eac3to is 6.7GB too
I'll check that. Maybe I'll switch to the flake encoder. Maybe that won't have problems with > 2GB output. Don't know...

1. Are you using Besiled 0.3 at the end of the dts chain to fix dts output?
No, I found a better way... :) There's a registry value which tells SurCode to give out a more compatible DTS stream (named "PAD ZEROS"). Unfortunately SurCode keeps on resetting this registry value to the "bad" setting all the time, so it's very uncomfortable for manual use. Of course eac3to solves all these troubles for you.

eact3to dts encode works with all 16 and 24bit Sources
I had to replace sox to make that work. SurCode didn't like the 24bit WAV files produced by sox. So now eac3to doesn't use sox for WAV file creation, anymore, but does that work itself. The WAV files created by eac3to should be similar to what wavwizard outputs. They seem to be more compatible then what sox creates.

2. Whne i convert a lpcm.raw to wave with -Bluray, the Message "remapping channes" will not longer appear ?
Output wave has correct channelmapping
The message doesn't appear, anymore, because I'm now doing that step together with some other steps like creating mono wavs etc. In the older eac3to build the channel remapping was a separate step. In the new build eac3to is sometimes doing multiple steps at once to save time. You may have noticed (or maybe not) that the LPCM -> mono WAV conversion is rather quick. It should be 2x-3x as fast as before.

madshi

30th June 2007, 13:06

What exactly is happening at this step? How is the DTS stream from Surcode erroneous?
Older versions of SurCode (the latest version 1.0.29 doesn't have this problem) by default added some zero bytes after each DTS frame. A normal DTS frame for 1536kbit/s is 2013 bytes long. SurCode by default writes 2013 real bytes and then 35 zero bytes for every frame. Don't ask me why they're doing that, I've no idea. delaycut, besplit and most other software doesn't like this very much. Fortunately, I've found a way to convince SurCode to stop adding those 35 zero bytes after each DTS frame and added that to eac3to.

ACrowley

30th June 2007, 19:14

Madshi is right
With a Surcode encoded dts you will get these Errors in the Header and mostly wrong Runtime/Filesize and this Error in mkvmerge :

audio/video go out of sync, but this stream is damaged.
Warning: dts_packetizer: skipping 35 bytes (no valid DTS header found).
This might make audio/video go out of sync, but this stream is damaged.

To fix the dts you can also use Besliced.exe (0.3)

Besliced 0.3 exe included in :
http://dspguru.notrace.dk/BeSplitv0.9b6.zip

Simply open Besliced.exe and move your dts into the window and select fix.
You will get a lot of Errors in the Log like this :

[00:00:00:000] +------- BeSplit -----
[00:00:00:000] | Input : G:\test.dts
[00:00:00:000] | Source Sample-Rate: 48.0KHz
[00:00:00:000] | Channels Count: 5.1, Bitrate: 1536kbps
[00:00:00:000] | Output : G:\test_Fixed.dts
[00:00:00:000] +---------------------
[00:00:00:021] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
[00:00:00:032] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
[00:00:00:042] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
[00:00:00:053] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
[00:00:00:063] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
[00:00:00:074] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
[00:00:00:085] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
[00:00:00:096] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
[00:00:00:106] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
[00:00:00:117] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
[00:00:00:128] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
[00:00:00:138] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
[00:00:00:149] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
[00:00:00:159] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
[00:00:00:170] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
[00:00:00:181] Stream error : Sync found after 35 bytes
....

After fixing the dts is clean ,with correct Runtime/Filesize and no more Problems and you have a proper nice dts

###############################################

@Madshi
1 .The Surcode Registry Key "PAD ZEROS"). it should be set to 0 ,right ?

2. When i use -down16 on the sample, the flac output still has the loud noise
.wav output is ok (in 16 and 24bit)
And -flac in 24bit ,has the Filesize Problem i told you above

3.Flake encoder would be nice. Its faster und higher -12 compression
But :
At the Moment you get only 16bit flac from flake encoder :
Signed 24-bit 48000 Hz 6-channel
WARNING! converting to 16-bit (not lossless)

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=120871

Hi,
I wrote Flake. 24-bit encoding is on the TODO list, but right now does downsample to 16-bit. As far as Winamp crashing...that's really odd. It should not be doing that, especially with the settings you used, which do not utilize any of Flake's experimental stuff. My guess is that the issue is Winamp since Foobar decodes okay. But then again, Flake has not been through very vigorous testing at early this stage in its existance.

Anyway, it seems that your only choice for now to encode 24-bit is the libFLAC encoder...I just wanted to chime in and say that I'm working on adding it to Flake sometime in the future.
-Justin

madshi

30th June 2007, 22:14

1 .The Surcode Registry Key "PAD ZEROS"). it should be set to 0 ,right ?
Right.

2. When i use -down16 on the sample, the flac output still has the loud noise
.wav output is ok (in 16 and 24bit)
And -flac in 24bit ,has the Filesize Problem i told you above

3.Flake encoder would be nice. Its faster und higher -12 compression
But :
At the Moment you get only 16bit flac from flake encoder
Argh, that's bad.

The_Keymaker

1st July 2007, 00:56

New version (v1.15) of EAC3toGUI available here:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ltxl6s

Changelog Version 1.15:
- Added DTS rate options
- Added Down convert option "-down16"
- Added "wavs" and "dts" filemasks
- Changed PCM and TrueHD options scheme to allow selection of common options (16bit, 24bit, 96Khz, 8ch)

Please report bugs, suggestions and overall usage experience.

Regards,
The_Keymaker

honai

1st July 2007, 02:16

A normal DTS frame for 1536kbit/s is 2013 bytes long. SurCode by default writes 2013 real bytes and then 35 zero bytes for every frame. Don't ask me why they're doing that, I've no idea.

Probably to get to the "magic" 2048 bytes size. I'm not sure but I think that DTS over SPDIF gets wrapped/padded in such a way, too, though transparently by the soundcard driver or AC3Filter.

ACrowley

1st July 2007, 08:17

@The_Keymaker

BluRay channelmapping Switch is removed cause eac3to will do it autom. now ,right ?

Little Suggestions

1. I know in your opinion (youre right) its enough to type in the dest. File extension to set Output Format.
But ,imho, a small scrolldown Outputformat Window would be nice

2. The Downconvert Option would be more obvious with "Downconvert to 16Bit"

3. Maybe a little Error ? When you select "Browse" to set the Output, the Windows Name is "Select the Source File" , shouldnt it be "Save as" ?
And Filetyp is (ac3,raw,wav), Theres no flac ( ac3,raw,wav,flac)

4. And the Input Extension .raw would be nice

Ofcourse its all marginal, your Gui works great! THX

greets

The_Keymaker

3rd July 2007, 03:47

New version (version 1.18) of EAC3toGUI released. Download link:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ruv4ub

Changelog:

1. Added *.raw source file extension mask
2. Added *.flac destination extension mask
3. Relabeled down convert option for clarification
4. Relabeled destination file browse dialog

Thanks to ACrowley for feedback and suggestions.

As usual, please provide feedback, bug reports and usage experience.

Regards,
The_Keymaker

ACrowley

3rd July 2007, 09:48

THX..great work!

But to 1:

.raw apppears in the mask ,When i load a .raw i get a ErrorMessage about a not valid Extension.

And is it possible to add a Proggress Bar (%) or something like that ?

Prophecy650

3rd July 2007, 17:29

don't know what I am doing wrong, says

Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

D:\BREAKUP\HVDVD_TS>"C:\Documents and Settings\Ivan\Desktop\New Folder (3)\eac3t
o.exe" "D:\BREAKUP\HVDVD_TS\EXTENDED.EVO" "D:\BREAKUP\HVDVD_TS\EXTENDED.ac3" -
448 -24
Muxing evo's first audio track to raw. Please wait...
Converting the raw file to wav. Please wait...
Converting the wav file to ac3. Please wait...

Aften: A/52 audio encoder
Version SVN
(c) 2006-2007 Justin Ruggles, Prakash Punnoor, et al.

input format: Signed 24-bit 48000 Hz 5.1-channel
output format: 48000 Hz 3/2 + LFE

"aften" reported error code "3221225477". A valid *.wav file was created sucessf
ully, though.

D:\BREAKUP\HVDVD_TS>

When I got to the wav file everything is sped up. the audio sounds like its beeing fastfoward?

madshi

3rd July 2007, 17:59

@Prophecy650,

as far as I can see from the "The Break-Up" HD DVD specs, this HD DVD doesn't have a TrueHD track, but only some E-AC3 tracks. So you may want to try demuxing the E-AC3 track by using EvoDemux and then feed that into eac3to. Maybe that works better?

Prophecy650

3rd July 2007, 18:02

thanks trying it right now

Prophecy650

3rd July 2007, 18:12

i went to evodemux changed it to eac3 not Im getting this

Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\Documents and Settings\Ivan\Desktop\New Folder>"C:\Documents and Settings\Iva
n\Desktop\New Folder (3)\eac3to.exe" "C:\Documents and Settings\Ivan\Desktop\New
Folder\FEATURE_1_FEATURE_2.DD>stream.00.eac3" "C:\Documents and Settings\Ivan\
Desktop\New Folder\FEATURE_1_FEATURE_2.DD>stream.00.ac3"
Source file "C:\Documents and Settings\Ivan\Desktop\New Folder\FEATURE_1_FEATURE
_2.DD>stream.00.eac3" not found.

madshi

3rd July 2007, 18:48

Please rename the file to something else. My XP doesn't even allow ">" inside of a file name. Don't know how you got such a character in your file name.

Prophecy650

3rd July 2007, 19:32

Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\Documents and Settings\Ivan\Desktop\New Folder>"C:\Documents and Settings\Iva
n\Desktop\New Folder (3)\eac3to.exe" "C:\Documents and Settings\Ivan\Desktop\New
Folder\FEATURE.eac3" "C:\Documents and Settings\Ivan\Desktop\New Folder\FEATUR
E.ac3" -448 -nero
E-AC3, 5.1 channels, 1:46:31, 1536kbit/s, 48khz
Muxing eac3 file to raw. Please wait...
Audio Decoder output was 24 bit this time.
Converting the raw file to wav. Please wait...
Converting the wav file to ac3. Please wait...

Aften: A/52 audio encoder
Version SVN
(c) 2006-2007 Justin Ruggles, Prakash Punnoor, et al.

input format: Signed 24-bit 48000 Hz 5.1-channel
output format: 48000 Hz 3/2 + LFE

"aften" reported error code "3221225477". A valid *.wav file was created sucessf
ully, though.

how do I get it to ac3 now? thanks alot madshi, I can hear the audio atleast now

madshi

3rd July 2007, 19:48

Looks like an Aften crash to me. Can you please try a different Aften build? I'm using one from here:

http://win32builds.sourceforge.net/aften/index.html

Don't remember which one. Might be revision 449.

Prophecy650

3rd July 2007, 19:48

the file is 5gb+ and the audio only like 23 min?

madshi

3rd July 2007, 19:53

Which file is 5GB? The raw/wav file can be that big. But don't worry, the final AC3 file will be much much smaller. The raw/wav files are just temporary intermediate files. They're so big because they're totally uncompressed. AC3 is a strong compressing algorithm.

Prophecy650

3rd July 2007, 20:21

madshi I love you lol, got it to work with the 449 like u said, thanks a million

starkhouse33

3rd July 2007, 23:14

whats the difference between using aften builds VERSION 0.07 and SVN REVISION 449.

madshi

4th July 2007, 08:51

whats the difference between using aften builds VERSION 0.07 and SVN REVISION 449.
I've no idea.

MichalHabart

4th July 2007, 10:13

Hello madshi.
Is it possible to add parameter for working directory? Because it is not best idea to create mono wavs in same directory where source eac3/pcm file is located.
Thanks in advance

tebasuna51

4th July 2007, 10:24

whats the difference between using aften builds VERSION 0.07 and SVN REVISION 449.

The rev449 is a intermediate version between v0.06 (with problems with big files) and v0.07 (rev493).

I don't know problems with Wisodev v0.07 compiles, please report if the problems related in this thread was with Aften v0.07 or a previous one.

With rev449 some of the changes in v0.07 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=993727#post993727) may not be present.

Edit: The rev449 is the first using the parameter -readtoeof 1 to support wav files >4GB. See this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=961856#post961856) and following.

madshi

4th July 2007, 10:32

it is not best idea to create mono wavs in same directory where source eac3/pcm file is located.
Why is that?

MichalHabart

4th July 2007, 10:44

Why is that?

Because it slows encoding down :)

I have also same problem posted here several days ago:

eac3to.exe "D:\VOBs\Ghost Rider\bits0001.pcm" h:\ghost.dts -1536
RAW, 5.1 channels, 2:03:25, 16 bits, 48khz
Convert the multi channel raw file to mono wav files. Please wait...
Convert the mono wav files to dts. Please wait...
Creating the DTS file failed. The multi channel wav files are valid, though.

I checked i have Surcode 1.0.23 properly installed and version of eac3to tool is 1.9.0.2 :(

Can you please help me find what is wrong then?

madshi

4th July 2007, 10:51

Because it slows encoding down :)
Argh, so you want the temp files to be on another drive?

eac3to.exe "D:\VOBs\Ghost Rider\bits0001.pcm" h:\ghost.dts -1536
RAW, 5.1 channels, 2:03:25, 16 bits, 48khz
Convert the multi channel raw file to mono wav files. Please wait...
Convert the mono wav files to dts. Please wait...
Creating the DTS file failed. The multi channel wav files are valid, though.

I checked i have Surcode 1.0.23 properly installed and version of eac3to tool is 1.9.0.2 :(
Does DTS encoding work if you put the mono wav files manually into SurCode?

What does your registry have here:

HKLM\Software\Minnetonka Audio Software\SurCode DVD DTS\Home

Is there a "surcodedvd.exe" in the path listed in that registry value?

MichalHabart

4th July 2007, 10:57

Argh, so you want the temp files to be on another drive?

Yes, exactly

Does DTS encoding work if you put the mono wav files manually into SurCode?

What does your registry have here:

HKLM\Software\Minnetonka Audio Software\SurCode DVD DTS\Home

Is there a "surcodedvd.exe" in the path listed in that registry value?

It works manually but key contains this:
C:\Program Files\SurCode DVD DTS

madshi

4th July 2007, 10:59

It works manually but key contains this:
C:\Program Files\SurCode DVD DTS
Is there a "surcodedvd.exe" in that path? Which OS are we you using?

MichalHabart

4th July 2007, 11:31

Is there a "surcodedvd.exe" in that path? Which OS are we you using?

No, as i posted before. there is just this:
C:\Program Files\SurCode DVD DTS

nothing more.

I am using WXP Pro

madshi

4th July 2007, 11:33

No, as i posted before. there is just this:
C:\Program Files\SurCode DVD DTS
No. I mean open My Computer and look what you find in "C:\Program Files\SurCode DVD DTS". Is there a "surcodedvd.exe" file in that folder?

MichalHabart

4th July 2007, 11:34

No. I mean open My Computer and look what you find in "C:\Program Files\SurCode DVD DTS". Is there a "surcodedvd.exe" file in that folder?

Yes, surcodedvd.exe is in this folder

Binnugsai

4th July 2007, 12:10

Hello,

I use eac3toGui 1.18 and try to convert an TrueHD with extension Vendeta.evo only with one audio witch i i demux with Evodemux and i have this kind of error !!!

Microsoft Windows XP [version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

O:\V pour Vendetta HD-DVD.1080p>"C:\DVD Outils HD\EAC3toGUI 0.90\eac3to.exe" "O:
\V pour Vendetta HD-DVD.1080p\Vendetta.EVO" "O:\V pour Vendetta HD-DVD.1080p\Ve
ndettaEnglish.ac3" -24
Muxing evo's first audio track to raw. Please wait...
Getting demuxer audio output pin failed.

O:\V pour Vendetta HD-DVD.1080p>

Can someone can help me !!!!

madshi

4th July 2007, 12:13

Yes, surcodedvd.exe is in this folder
When you start SurCode manually, what does the title bar say? Does it say "DTS Encoder" or something else? Does the encode button say "Encode" or something else? eac3to depends on these texts.

You don't have accidently deleted the "HookSurcode.dll" file which comes with eac3to? Cause that file is needed for SurCode automation.

madshi

4th July 2007, 12:17

I use eac3toGui 1.18 and try to convert an TrueHD with extension Vendeta.evo only with one audio witch i i demux with Evodemux and i have this kind of error !!!

O:\V pour Vendetta HD-DVD.1080p>"C:\DVD Outils HD\EAC3toGUI 0.90\eac3to.exe" "O:
\V pour Vendetta HD-DVD.1080p\Vendetta.EVO" "O:\V pour Vendetta HD-DVD.1080p\Ve
ndettaEnglish.ac3" -24
Muxing evo's first audio track to raw. Please wait...
Getting demuxer audio output pin failed.
That means that the Nero splitter doesn't seem to like this EVO file. Do you have the latest Nero version installed?

MichalHabart

4th July 2007, 12:34

When you start SurCode manually, what does the title bar say? Does it say "DTS Encoder" or something else? Does the encode button say "Encode" or something else? eac3to depends on these texts.

You don't have accidently deleted the "HookSurcode.dll" file which comes with eac3to? Cause that file is needed for SurCode automation.

Title says "DTS Encoder" and button is named "Encode".
HookSurcode.dll file is in same directory as eac3to.exe

madshi

4th July 2007, 12:48

Convert the mono wav files to dts. Please wait...
Creating the DTS file failed. The multi channel wav files are valid, though.
How much time delay is between those 2 lines? Does the "Creating the DTS file failed" line appear without delay? Or does it appear after some seconds/minutes? If there's a delay, can you please search your harddisk. Maybe the "ghost.dts" file was stored in a folder where it wasn't supposed to be stored?

Binnugsai

4th July 2007, 12:49

@ Madshi,

Yes i have Nero 7.9.6.0, so !!!

Wilbert

4th July 2007, 12:56

@xkodi,

but i don't know if 'Nero Audio Decoder 2' is capable to decode pure MLP, but i will try that test in several hours and post back the result.
Is this true? I'm unable to connect a mlp stream to this decoder, but i haven't bought this HD plugin yet.

Does it work when you remux MLP (from AOB) in EOV? Or is this remuxing not possible yet?

MichalHabart

4th July 2007, 13:00

How much time delay is between those 2 lines? Does the "Creating the DTS file failed" line appear without delay? Or does it appear after some seconds/minutes? If there's a delay, can you please search your harddisk. Maybe the "ghost.dts" file was stored in a folder where it wasn't supposed to be stored?

Delay between these 2 lines is less then 1 second and ghost.dts is nowhere on my system.

madshi

4th July 2007, 13:47

Yes i have Nero 7.9.6.0, so !!!
Don't know why it doesn't work then. Try using GraphEdit (Nero File Source Async -> Nero Splitter -> Nero Audio Decoder 2 -> Dump). You need to rename GraphEdit.exe to Recode.exe, though. Otherwise the filters won't work.

madshi

4th July 2007, 13:48

Delay between these 2 lines is less then 1 second and ghost.dts is nowhere on my system.
Ok, I guess I'll have to add some more error messages to track down the cause of the problem.

Binnugsai

4th July 2007, 13:49

Don't know why it doesn't work then. Try using GraphEdit (Nero File Source Async -> Nero Splitter -> Nero Audio Decoder 2 -> Dump). You need to rename GraphEdit.exe to Recode.exe, though. Otherwise the filters won't work.

Thank you i try and tell you about.

The_Keymaker

5th July 2007, 06:52

New version (v1.19) of EAC3toGUI available here:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/jz17up

Changelog:

1. Fixed *.raw source file extension bug.

Regards,
The_Keymaker

Roscoe62

5th July 2007, 10:52

madshi

5th July 2007, 12:18

I'm really sorry to ask a question that may have already been answered but...

Is this tool able to successfully Translate a Dolby TrueHD soundtrack into an LPCM soundtrack?

I know a lot of people are going all the way and producing a FLAC/DD/DTS track, but all I really want is LPCM.

Thank you :)
Currently we're still having some problems with the TrueHD decoders. The Sonic one adds a bit of noise. The Nero one seems to do some processing on the audio data, so that a 16bit TrueHD track comes out as 24bit.

Anyway, yes, basically eac3to lets you convert TrueHD to LPCM. However, you may need to change the channel mapping (eac3to should be able to do that for you, if you tell it what you need) because Blu-Ray LPCM tracks have a somewhat "strange" channel order. Furthermore eac3to gives out little endian while you probably need big endian to get a Blu-Ray compatible LPCM track. You can change the endian by using sox.

MichalHabart

5th July 2007, 16:59

Ok, I guess I'll have to add some more error messages to track down the cause of the problem.

Will wait for newer version :)

Roscoe62

5th July 2007, 20:07

Currently we're still having some problems with the TrueHD decoders. The Sonic one adds a bit of noise. The Nero one seems to do some processing on the audio data, so that a 16bit TrueHD track comes out as 24bit.

Anyway, yes, basically eac3to lets you convert TrueHD to LPCM. However, you may need to change the channel mapping (eac3to should be able to do that for you, if you tell it what you need) because Blu-Ray LPCM tracks have a somewhat "strange" channel order. Furthermore eac3to gives out little endian while you probably need big endian to get a Blu-Ray compatible LPCM track. You can change the endian by using sox.

Thank you Madshi :)

Don't need it to be Blu-Ray compatible, just as long as I can mux it into a .ts stream (via TSRemux) and it will play back correctly.

jdbuckeye2009

6th July 2007, 04:34

hey a while back a few people were having trouble with DD+ mono files, and were getting errors like this:

E-AC3, 1.0 channels, 2:04:39, 64kbit/s, 48khz
Mono E-AC3 tracks can only be decoded by Nero's filters, switching to Nero.
Muxing eac3 file to raw. Please wait...
The file size of the raw file doesn't seem to fit.

I saw that some people got it to work, but it didn't really say what they did differently. I am trying to get the audio for Casablanca, and nothing is working.

For the record, I have nero 7.9.6.0 Premium, the newest version of eac3to, and vista x64. Any help would be appreciated.

crapz0rs

6th July 2007, 09:35

jdbuckeye2009: Buy the hddvd/bluray plugin for nero.
It is separately licensed.

After you enter the serial, the already installed filters will unlock.

Roscoe62

6th July 2007, 10:09

Currently we're still having some problems with the TrueHD decoders. The Sonic one adds a bit of noise. The Nero one seems to do some processing on the audio data, so that a 16bit TrueHD track comes out as 24bit.

Madshi,

As things stand, if you were to choose one of those TrueHD decoders over the other, which would you choose? i.e. which currently does the better job?

madshi

6th July 2007, 11:44

I saw that some people got it to work, but it didn't really say what they did differently. I am trying to get the audio for Casablanca, and nothing is working.

For the record, I have nero 7.9.6.0 Premium, the newest version of eac3to, and vista x64. Any help would be appreciated.
Some people say that you need the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD plugin for that to work. I'm not fully sure myself. I have the plugin and it works for me. But I don't know if it would work without the plugin for me, too.

madshi

6th July 2007, 11:46

As things stand, if you were to choose one of those TrueHD decoders over the other, which would you choose? i.e. which currently does the better job?
I've not tried the Sonic decoder myself yet. I guess if you HAD to use a decoder right now, I'd probably choose Nero. But if you ask me, wait until there's a corrected revision of either the Nero or Sonic decoder available. In the meanwhile Nero support has told me that they've forwarded my "complaint" to the developers. So maybe we'll get a fixed Nero TrueHD decoder sooner or later...

madshi

6th July 2007, 15:49

Wilbert

6th July 2007, 15:56

So I'm sad to say that at this point I cannot recommend to buy the Nero HD DVD/Blu-Ray plugin, anymore.
It seems that we can't buy it in the Netherlands. Can you buy it at all outside America?

madshi

6th July 2007, 18:46

It seems that we can't buy it in the Netherlands. Can you buy it at all outside America?
I was able to buy it from Germany.

ACrowley

6th July 2007, 19:38

Argh, just got a reply from Nero. The reason why the 16bit TrueHD decoder output is not 16bit is because the TrueHD decoder applies Dynamic Range Control. Nero has to do that to fulfill the Dolby license. They say Dynamic Range Control can be turned off in Nero ShowTime. But unfortunately that doesn't have any effect on the decoder when using it through GraphEdit... :(

It gets worse: The Nero support told me that in future Nero versions the Nero license will not allow, anymore, to use the Nero filters outside of the Nero software.

So I'm sad to say that at this point I cannot recommend to buy the Nero HD DVD/Blu-Ray plugin, anymore.

If you don't like this, please complain to Nero. The more people complain the better chances we have to achieve a change. Thanks.

really bad, hopefully Sonic comes up with new allround Decoder (without TrueHD backround noise)
The current 4.3 Audio Decoder from Cinevision 2.0.2 Final isnt working without Noise

So, we have to use older Versions in the Future to decode TrueHD.
Maybe it works again with Graphedit.exe to recode.exe renaming.
Who knows. Offic. you never cant use Nero Decoders out of Showtime

I have no big Problem with the Nero TruHD 24Bit Output.
Would be bad when output when the Output is always to low with 16bit instead of 24bit.
I mean you can encode to 16bit flac or to dts fom 24bit wave without Problems
I think Sonic will apply Dynamic Range Control on TrueHD too ?

But EAC3 decoding would be bad without Nero ,because i dont want get back the DynmicRangeCompression from Sonic

xkodi

6th July 2007, 20:16

really bad, hopefully Sonic comes up with new allround Decoder (without TrueHD backround noise)
The current 4.3 Audio Decoder from Cinevision 2.0.2 Final isnt working without Noise

File Source (Async.) -> Sonic HD Demuxer -> Sonic Audio Decoder 4.3 -> Nero Sound Processor -> Default DirectSound Device

when 'Nero Sound Processor' is set to stereo there is no noise and that is very interesting, so most probably the Sonic decoder works and as i mentioned before the noise is caused by incompatibility with DirectShow filters or something like that, plus both new versions - 4.2.0.84 and 4.3.0.151, that can play TrueHD have the same noise problem, so if it is 4.2.0.84 bug and is so obvious, why it's not fixed in 4.3.0.151...

jdbuckeye2009

7th July 2007, 04:51

ugh, it sounds kinda iffy as to whether the nero HD plugin will work, so I am a bit reluctant to shell out the $30+ for it. Maybe I'll just rent the Casablanca DVD, grab the audio, and mux it in or something. I kind of doubt that I am going to encounter a whole lot of HD-DVDs with mono DD+ audio anyways...

Thanks for the responses though.

ACrowley

7th July 2007, 07:01

File Source (Async.) -> Sonic HD Demuxer -> Sonic Audio Decoder 4.3 -> Nero Sound Processor -> Default DirectSound Device

when 'Nero Sound Processor' is set to stereo there is no noise and that is very interesting, so most probably the Sonic decoder works and as i mentioned before the noise is caused by incompatibility with DirectShow filters or something like that, plus both new versions - 4.2.0.84 and 4.3.0.151, that can play TrueHD have the same noise problem, so if it is 4.2.0.84 bug and is so obvious, why it's not fixed in 4.3.0.151...

Can be that Sonic 4.3 Decoder will work without Noise when we can reg the 4.3 Decoders correctly in System.
At the Moment we can only overwrite them with 4.2 Decoder cause when you try to re them you will ge the Error Message

Maybe theers no Noise cause Sonic has Problems with Mutichannel Decoding on TrueHD

File Source (Async.) -> Sonic HD Demuxer -> Sonic Audio Decoder 4.3 -> Nero Sound Processor -> Default DirectSound Device

xkodi

7th July 2007, 08:21

Maybe theers no Noise cause Sonic has Problems with Mutichannel Decoding on TrueHD

but Sonic output to 'Nero Sound Processor' is in multichannel and then 'Nero Sound Processor' converts that multichannel output to stereo:

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/8800/nspfs8.png

"Channel Mask: 0x3f" means 5.1 channels and "Channel Mask: 0x03" means stereo.

when i use the following graph, i.e. dump the multichannel output from Sonic to file:

File Source (Async.) -> Sonic HD Demuxer -> Sonic Audio Decoder 4.3 -> Dump

and then convert the dump file to WAV file with sox and split that file to 6 mono WAVs with Wavewizard there IS noise in all 6 channels, so 'Nero Sound Processor' do something very interesting, because there are two possibilities:

1) somehow 'Nero Sound Processor' converts multichannel WAV file with noise in all channels to stereo WAV file without noise, which seems impossible to me, because multichannel to stereo conversion basically should be mixing those 6 channels to 2 channels and thus the noise will be mixed too.

2) somehow 'Nero Sound Processor', when set to stereo, prevents Sonic to do errors and thus the multichannel output that Sonic produces in this case is different (error free) from the multichannel output that it produces, when is connected to Dump.ax filter and this option seems the right one, at least for me.

or maybe someone have other ideas how to solve that puzzle...

Wilbert

8th July 2007, 20:25

@xkodi, please respond:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1021485#post1021485

DeepBeepMeep

8th July 2007, 22:59

madshi

9th July 2007, 07:31

eac3to looks to be a very interesting tool. Is there a guide somewhere that explains how to use it to convert a Blu-ray LPCM track to DTS for instance. There seems to be lots of ways to extract the LPCM from the Blu-ray and I end up with garbage noise wav tracks.
Try xport to demux the LPCM and then "eac3to some.pcm some.dts". You may need to specify the bitdepth ("-16" or "-24") when calling eac3to, if it can't figure that out on itself. If you don't get this to work, let me know which movie you've problems with.

madshi

9th July 2007, 07:33

@xkodi,

Is this true? I'm unable to connect a mlp stream to this decoder, but i haven't bought this HD plugin yet.

Does it work when you remux MLP (from AOB) in EOV? Or is this remuxing not possible yet?
IIRC the latest Sonic filters (Sonic HD Demuxer -> Sonic Audio Decoder) work good for demuxed MLP. Just demux the MLP and name the file "*.MLP". I can drop such a file in GraphEdit and it works at once. I wouldn't recommend the Nero filters at this time due to the processing (probably Dynamic Range Control) they're applying to the decoded data.

Roscoe62

9th July 2007, 09:24

Madshi,

on the previous page you said that eac3to could be used to convert a TrueHD track into LPCM. Could I trouble you to explain how this can be done? I'm guessing using the gui is NOT the way to go here.

Also, I'm trying to do the same thing with some of my DD+ audio tracks (convert to LPCM) - and I felt sure that eac3to could also do that.

Please let me know if I'm wrong, and thank you for your patience. :)

FWIW...the only reason I want LPCM is to preserve as much quality as possible (I see AC3 as a reduction in quality) and also to not have to use Sonic or Nero filters at playback time.

Thanks again!

madshi

9th July 2007, 10:37

on the previous page you said that eac3to could be used to convert a TrueHD track into LPCM. Could I trouble you to explain how this can be done? I'm guessing using the gui is NOT the way to go here.

Also, I'm trying to do the same thing with some of my DD+ audio tracks (convert to LPCM) - and I felt sure that eac3to could also do that.
Basically you'd do "eac3to source.eac3 dest.raw" or "eac3to source.evo dest.raw". The raw file is then basically LPCM. However, eac3to outputs little endian in the raw file while a Blu-Ray LPCM track is usually big endian. So you may need to use "sox" to change endian from little to big. Furthermore you may have to remap the channels cause the Blu-Ray LPCM channel mapping is kind of strange. Eac3to uses "-0,1,2,5,3,4" to convert Blu-Ray LPCM files to the usual channel mapping. You need to do the reverse, so try calling eac3to with "-0,1,2,4,5,3". So in short again:

(1) "eac3to source.whatever dest.raw -0,1,2,4,5,3"
(2) call "sox" to convert little endian to big endian

Don't have the sox parameters available right now, sorry.

DeepBeepMeep

9th July 2007, 17:48

Thanks Madshi for your answer. When converting Blu-ray to DTS or AC3 do I have to remap channels even I have already used the -Blu-Ray option ? Many thanks again for your great tool and your help.

madshi

9th July 2007, 17:58

Thanks Madshi for your answer. When converting Blu-ray to DTS or AC3 do I have to remap channels even I have already used the -Blu-Ray option ? Many thanks again for your great tool and your help.
The "-blu-ray" option is no more in the current version. eac3to now defaults to the options necessary for Blu-Ray handling if you feed it a PCM file. The only thing you may have to specify is the bitdepth ("-16" or "-24"). Channels are automatically remapped correctly.

eas4uk

9th July 2007, 18:47

Hi Madshi

Great tool which I have now been using for a few weeks - big thanks to you mate :)

Is there anyway that this tool can be used to convert DTS-HD to .ac3 from the command line?

Cheers

eas4uk

madshi

9th July 2007, 18:53

Is there anyway that this tool can be used to convert DTS-HD to .ac3 from the command line?
Can't you can already do that with e.g. BeHappy? DTS-HD contains a standard DTS core, I believe, so basically BeHappy should be able to do the conversion. Of course you'd lose the additional information of DTS-HD this way.

DeepBeepMeep

9th July 2007, 19:06

Thanks Madshi.

I may need the sonic audio decoder. I would like to buy them but can't find them on the sonic website. Are they part of some package? Thanks

xkodi

9th July 2007, 20:22

@xkodi,

Is this true? I'm unable to connect a mlp stream to this decoder, but i haven't bought this HD plugin yet.

Does it work when you remux MLP (from AOB) in EOV? Or is this remuxing not possible yet?

yes, it's true, however to use Nero decoder you need first to mux the MLP into EVOB and its not easy at all to do that and EVODemux can't correctly mux AOB into EVOB, so the good choice for MLP is the Sonic decoder, it can playback raw MLP stream, so you need only to extract MLP tracks from AOB using DVDAExplorer, both Nero and Sonic do not apply DRC when playing MLP.

eas4uk

9th July 2007, 20:41

Can't you can already do that with e.g. BeHappy? DTS-HD contains a standard DTS core, I believe, so basically BeHappy should be able to do the conversion. Of course you'd lose the additional information of DTS-HD this way.

I never had any joy with BeHappy, however, eac3to has never let me down yet, no worries I'll persevere with BeHappy until I get it to work...

Thanks again for eac3to though :thanks:

madshi

9th July 2007, 21:17

I never had any joy with BeHappy, however, eac3to has never let me down yet, no worries I'll persevere with BeHappy until I get it to work...

Thanks again for eac3to though :thanks:
I might add DTS(-HD) support to eac3to sooner or later. But it's not a priority right now.

eas4uk

9th July 2007, 21:20

I might add DTS(-HD) support to eac3to sooner or later. But it's not a priority right now.

That would be great if you can at some point :)

ACrowley

10th July 2007, 15:01

Can't you can already do that with e.g. BeHappy? DTS-HD contains a standard DTS core, I believe, so basically BeHappy should be able to do the conversion. Of course you'd lose the additional information of DTS-HD this way.

Maybe Tranzcode.exe (0.4) would be the Better implemention for eac3to

Its a small exe and Tranzcode 0.4 can directly decode the
dts hd to wave. It decodes the included dts core ofcourse

simple command :
tranzcode.exe inputdts.dts output.wav

switches :
/ -mch = multichannel wave output
/-16 or 24 or 32

and you can extract single channles only

madshi

10th July 2007, 15:37

Maybe Tranzcode.exe (0.4) would be the Better implemention for eac3to

Its a small exe and Tranzcode 0.4 can directly decode the
dts hd to wave. It decodes the included dts core ofcourse

simple command :
tranzcode.exe inputdts.dts output.wav

switches :
/ -mch = multichannel wave output
/-16 or 24 or 32
Sounds good. But maybe Nero and/or Sonic will make use of the added DTS-HD information? That would be preferred, of course, over only using the core.

MichalHabart

10th July 2007, 15:56

Hi Madshi,
i tried different PCM track but still the same error. Creation of DTS failed. When i do manually, everything is ok, surcode will create proper DTS. Is there something i could be doing wrong?

And the second question, mono wav file are correct as it says. Does it mean that they are also mapped to be feeded to surcode in order 0-1-2-3-4-5? (In this case, is C channel really C?)

ACrowley

10th July 2007, 16:01

@MichaelHarbart
eac3 mono wave (.wavs) output is :
1 Left
2 Right
3 Center
4 LFE
5 SL
6 SR

Surcode input order is the same

Have you Surcode DTS Pro 1.0.23 installed ?
You need minimum v1.0.23

@madshi

No Nero only decodes the Core. You can see it when you craete a graph with NeroAudioDecoder2 on a dtshd.
Decoding info is only 1536kbps (core depended)
And i never had succes to connect dts with sonic. When its possible ,i dont believe Sonic Decoder can decode full dtshd
Theres currently no Decoder which can decode the full dtshd
Imho the simple core extraction makes most Sense, unless you want encode standard dtscore to ac3

Maybe you can implement both Options for dts hd.
Decoding dtshd(core) to wave with Tranzcode and extract dtscore from dtshd

MichalHabart

10th July 2007, 17:39

@MichalHarbart
eac3 mono wave (.wavs) output is :
1 Left
2 Right
3 Center
4 LFE
5 SL
6 SR

Surcode input order is the same

Have you Surcode DTS Pro 1.0.23 installed ?
You need minimum v1.0.23

Yes, i have it installed in standard directory C:\Program Files\Surcode DVD DTS
Creation of mono wav files is always OK but then "Creating the DTS file failed". This message appears immediately after mono wav files are created.

madshi

10th July 2007, 21:35

i tried different PCM track but still the same error. Creation of DTS failed. When i do manually, everything is ok, surcode will create proper DTS. Is there something i could be doing wrong?
Currently I'm not sure. Surcode automation seems to work for some people and not for others. I'm planning to add more detailed error information to the next eac3to build to find out why Surcode automation fails when it fails.

And the second question, mono wav file are correct as it says. Does it mean that they are also mapped to be feeded to surcode in order 0-1-2-3-4-5? (In this case, is C channel really C?)
eac3to should name the mono files correctly. C should really be C etc.

madshi

10th July 2007, 21:37

No Nero only decodes the Core. You can see it when you craete a graph with NeroAudioDecoder2 on a dtshd.
Decoding info is only 1536kbps (core depended)
And i never had succes to connect dts with sonic. When its possible ,i dont believe Sonic Decoder can decode full dtshd
Theres currently no Decoder which can decode the full dtshd
Imho the simple core extraction makes most Sense, unless you want encode standard dtscore to ac3

Maybe you can implement both Options for dts hd.
Decoding dtshd(core) to wave with Tranzcode and extract dtscore from dtshd
Ok, thanks for the information. Not sure yet what I'll do.

Roscoe62

11th July 2007, 09:14

Madshi,

Thanks for the method to transcode DD+ to LPCM. When using sox to change to Big endian, because the input file is raw I have to tell sox a few parameters of the input file so it can process it - i.e. sample rate, sample size, data encoding & channels.

Is there any way to tell what the output file eac3to produces will be when the input file is DD+ so I can pass sox the correct data?

Again, thank you for your time!

madshi

11th July 2007, 09:31

Roscoe62

11th July 2007, 09:37

One more quick question. If nothing else is used in the eac3to command line, which DD+ decoder is used by default? I have both Sonic 4.2 and Nero (blu-ray & hd-dvd plugin) but I think my Sonic decoders have gone a bit "screwy", even after reinstalling them. If I wish to use the Nero decoder do I have to rename eac3to.exe to recode.exe?

I'm very sorry for so many questions!

cstrikedish

11th July 2007, 10:17

A great tool! thanks for share!
:thanks:

madshi

11th July 2007, 10:48

If nothing else is used in the eac3to command line, which DD+ decoder is used by default?
Sonic.

I have both Sonic 4.2 and Nero (blu-ray & hd-dvd plugin) but I think my Sonic decoders have gone a bit "screwy", even after reinstalling them. If I wish to use the Nero decoder do I have to rename eac3to.exe to recode.exe?
No, that's not necessary. Just use the "-nero" switch.

Roscoe62

12th July 2007, 11:51

Well, I finally decided to give up on LPCM. I was finding it too difficult to mux it into anything, so I decided to use flac. Gotta say the procedure is MUCH easier!

Anyway, when it comes to setting up a directshow graph to play back my completed mkv file, for those encoding to flac, what filter is the best to use? I'm currently using ffdshow (although an older version) and it seems to work OK, but I wanted to know if there's anything better out there?

Also, is there any perceived quality difference between keeping 24 bit or downconverting to 16 bit?

As an alternative, is transcoding to a multi-channel wav file a better way to go, quality-wise?

Thanks to Madshi for a truly break-through app! :)

madshi

12th July 2007, 12:17

for those encoding to flac, what filter is the best to use? I'm currently using ffdshow (although an older version) and it seems to work OK
I had tried some other decoders, but they didn't even work properly for me at all. I'm using ffdshow, too.

Also, is there any perceived quality difference between keeping 24 bit or downconverting to 16 bit?
I've not really tested that yet. Of course that will also depend on whether the source was 24 bit or not.

As an alternative, is transcoding to a multi-channel wav file a better way to go, quality-wise?
FLAC is lossless, so it's 100% identical to LPCM and to WAV. Basically WAV is the same as LPCM, just with a little header in front of the LPCM data. FLAC is like a zipped WAV.

musky5789

12th July 2007, 15:35

Can anyone tell me where i can get "Dump" filter from???

honai

12th July 2007, 17:42

Speaking of FLAC, what's the easiest way to transcode FLAC audio streams into separate mono WAVs suitable for feeding into Surcode DTS?

xkodi

12th July 2007, 18:31

new CinemasterAudio.dll v4.3.0.169 + SonicHDDemuxer.dll v4.3.0.89 are out (as part of CineVision 2.0.2final).

there are no "discontinuities" errors with the new versions:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1019802#post1019802

and as a result there is no noise when decoding TrueHD, but the output is very different from the old CinemasterAudio.dll v4.3.0.151 + SonicHDDemuxer.dll v4.3.0.73 (part of CineVision 2.0.2beta):

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1019241#post1019241

which is very confusing, because the old version has almost the same output as Nero for "Nine Inch Nails: BYIT bonus TrueHD track" and now it is entirely different:

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/371/ninsonicnewwo9.png (http://imageshack.us)

and the "Vendetta TrueHD stream" output is no more 16bit, but seems more like 8bit:

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/6397/sonicvendnewhq8.png (http://imageshack.us)

the big surprise is that after overwriting of the new DLLs with the old ones, there is again no noise and the output is byte by byte identical, so maybe some registry settings are affecting the behavior of the Sonic codec, but i haven't time to dig deeper and find out what is really going on.

madshi

12th July 2007, 18:31

Can anyone tell me where i can get "Dump" filter from???
It comes with GraphEdit.

madshi

12th July 2007, 18:37

xkodi

12th July 2007, 18:51

That's extremely strange cause I still have noise with the same dlls!!How does it sound? Does the WAV look and sound alright?

madshi, both TrueHD tracks sound completely normal and the fact, that you are experiencing noise with the new Sonic DLLs and that here even after deletion of the new DLLs and going back to the old ones i don't have noise is more than extremely strange, i don't know and i am really running out of ideas what is going on...

P.S. i'm comparing part of Nine Inch Nails track with a lot of drums and Sonic even sounds much better than Nero, at least in my opinion.

[edit] and with Vendetta track: Nero output is very bad - the voices are low and unclear, with Sonic the voices are very clear and the volume is much pleasant than the Nero.

ACrowley

13th July 2007, 13:02

That's extremely strange cause I still have noise with the same dlls!!

How does it sound? Does the WAV look and sound alright?

I have still noise to ! on demuxed .mlp and evo

madshi

13th July 2007, 13:06

@xkodi, what magic did you do? :) Did you do anything else besides running the installer and copying the new dlls over the old ones in the "common" folder?

ACrowley

13th July 2007, 13:12

I think hes only overwritten the 4.3 over 4.2 after installation

Its not possible to reg the 4.3 Decoders manually, you will get a Error

I dont know, ive the Feeling the noise has to do with LFE.
When the TrueHD Track starts ,without LFE Effects its clean until LFE Effects come in

Maybe its a simple Registry Settting

However, i have still noise with 4.3 and TrueHD. Encoded mlp from Surcode works perfect
But now i have succes to connect to dts and dts hd ,but Sonic decodes only the core:
mpc player properties :Audio: PCM (DTS) 48000Hz 6ch 1509Kbps [Output])

Nikos

13th July 2007, 15:33

I convert DD+ to AC3 with eac3to. I want to know more about -down16 downconvert raw data to 16 bit.
When i must to use it?

madshi

13th July 2007, 15:48

I convert DD+ to AC3 with eac3to. I want to know more about -down16 downconvert raw data to 16 bit.
When i must to use it?
You are not forced to use it - ever. You *can* use it if you want to save space when doing FLAC encoding. The size difference between 16bit and 24bit with FLAC encoding is quite big. Of course the audio quality suffers a bit. But only if you have good ears and a good receiver and good boxes etc...

Do *NOT* use "-down16" for AC3 and DTS encoding because there's no benefit in doing that. There's neither an advantage in size nor in sound quality.

Nikos

13th July 2007, 16:09

Thank you madshi for the precious explain.

xkodi

13th July 2007, 18:38

@xkodi, what magic did you do? :) Did you do anything else besides running the installer and copying the new dlls over the old ones in the "common" folder?

it's not a magic i found the reason: i don't know why but "Control Panel -> Sounds and Audio Devices -> Volume -> Speaker Settings -> Speakers -> Speaker Setup" was changed from "5.1 surround sound speakers" to "Desktop stereo speakers":

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3969/spkyh4.png (http://imageshack.us)

when i set it back to "5.1 surround sound speakers" the noise is back, so at least Sonic can decode first 2 channels without noise and now we know how to make it to do that.

madshi

13th July 2007, 19:40

when i set it back to "5.1 surround sound speakers" the noise is back
Too bad.

But it may explain why Sonic didn't notice the bug: Most people only have stereo speakers on their desktop!

so at least Sonic can decode first 2 channels without noise and now we know how to make it to do that.
Right. When will version 4.4 come? :)

xbox360

14th July 2007, 01:19

Did you know that Dolby TrueHD is Dolby MLP Lossless, so if you have the SurCode MLP Lossless encoder you have Dolby TrueHD encoder !.

SBeaver

14th July 2007, 06:31

madshi

14th July 2007, 11:10

Did you know that Dolby TrueHD is Dolby MLP Lossless, so if you have the SurCode MLP Lossless encoder you have Dolby TrueHD encoder !.
TrueHD is based on MLP, but has some extensions, also the header is slightly different. So no, the SurCode MLP encoder is not a TrueHD encoder. And the decoders behave differently for MLP and TrueHD. E.g. Sonic's latest decoder adds ugly noise when decoding TrueHD but it perfect with MLP.

madshi

14th July 2007, 11:11

I'm getting some type of error when trying to convert eac3 with sonic decoder.
Apparently the dump filter doesn't work, or sonic doesn't work.
This was on Vista x64 (sonic worked ok with xp x64)
Sonic and dump filter show up in dshow filter manager so that's not the problem.
I can't test Nero right now because I havn't bought the plugin.
Which Sonic version are you using? What do you mean with "some type of error"? Some more details about the error would be helpful. Do you think it's a problem with eac3to? Or does it also occur in GraphEdit?

SBeaver

14th July 2007, 23:37

Which Sonic version are you using? What do you mean with "some type of error"? Some more details about the error would be helpful. Do you think it's a problem with eac3to? Or does it also occur in GraphEdit?

I'd say the problem must be with the sonic filter.
The error message was something about dump filter unable to... something. It created an empty file that is.
I can't put graphedit together at all because I don't have the right splitters apparently. (sonic audio decoder is available there though)
Maybe this problem went off topic now, what I meant to ask was if there are any compatbillity problems with vista x64 and dump and sonic or maybe eac3to.

I have version 4.2 btw, worked well in xp but not in vista x64.

eas4uk

15th July 2007, 16:02

Has anyone had the "demuxer didnt accept the source file" error message before? When its trying to mux the eac3 file to raw?

I'm getting this now - I've used evodemux to join the two feature.evo s together and then demuxed the audio, renamed to filename.eac3 and then used the eac3to gui as I have loads of times before and I'm now suddenly getting this error...

Any ideas? Its definitely a DD+ track 1.5mbps bitrate btw

Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

D:\Audio>"D:\Audio\eac3to.exe" "D:\Audio\Black.eac3" "D:\Audio\Black.ac3" -640

E-AC3, 5.1 channels, 1:55:33, 1536kbit/s, 48khz
Muxing eac3 file to raw. Please wait...
The demuxer didn't accept the source file.

D:\Audio>

madshi

15th July 2007, 16:33

That's a bit strange since eac3to seems to recognize the file just fine. Please try to rename the file to black.ddp. Does that help? Also please try whether the Sonic HD demuxer accepts this file in GraphEdit, if you know how to use GraphEdit. Maybe uninstalling and reinstalling the Sonic filters work. That has fixed some problems in the past.

eas4uk

15th July 2007, 17:15

Renaming got the same result

I'm a bit of a noob with graphedit but i have tried

file source (async) >> Sonic HD Demuxer
&
file source (async) >> Sonic audio decoder

and both time graph edit states that a connection cant be created

I'll try uninstalling sonic and reinstalling and post back shortly

Edit:

Nope that hasn't solved it either :(

madshi

15th July 2007, 17:19

file source (async) >> Sonic HD Demuxer
That's the correct thing to do. If the Sonic HD Demuxer refuses to accept the eac3 file, there's probably something wrong with the Sonic installation or something like that.

eas4uk

15th July 2007, 18:31

I've uninstalled and reinstalled sonic and still the problem remains

Any other suggestions Madshi?

The_Keymaker

15th July 2007, 18:59

@eas4uk

Instead of demuxing the audio track from the joined feature evos, try using EVOdemux to just demux the audio tracks by themselves.

That is, in EVOdemux, unselect everything except the audio track you desire, and then demux. As long as you have the "continue with second evo" box checked under options, EVOdemux will demux the desired audio track for the entire movie.

The_Keymaker

Wilbert

15th July 2007, 19:42

Renaming got the same result

I'm a bit of a noob with graphedit but i have tried

file source (async) >> Sonic HD Demuxer
&
file source (async) >> Sonic audio decoder

and both time graph edit states that a connection cant be created
I've got the same problem (with input *.mlp). I'm using Sonic CinePlayer HD DVD Decoder v4.2, but i've no idea where to get/buy v4.3. I can't find it on http://www.sonic.com/products/Consumer/ :confused:

eas4uk

15th July 2007, 19:49

@The Keymaker

Just tried that - same problem I'm afraid

eas4uk

15th July 2007, 20:18

I've got the same problem (with input *.mlp). I'm using Sonic CinePlayer HD DVD Decoder v4.2, but i've no idea where to get/buy v4.3. I can't find it on http://www.sonic.com/products/Consumer/ :confused:

I've just tried 4.3 but that wont work either.

SBeaver

15th July 2007, 20:46

[QUOTE=eas4uk;1024784]I've just tried 4.3 but that wont work either

There is a link for 4.3 below - but just a warning: I didnt post that so I cant verify the source (i just googled it and came across it)

*link removed*
This version seems to have helped my problem, but I think it's against the rules to post links like that.

graphedit was very happy with this version. the only problem now is I have to use haali instead of the sonic hd demuxer to play in MPC because sonic demuxer breaks video and gives me green blocks all over.

edit:sorry removed

eas4uk

15th July 2007, 20:51

Apologies for the link - mods can you please remove the link from the above quote

many thanks

eas4uk

madshi

15th July 2007, 21:12

I've uninstalled and reinstalled sonic and still the problem remains

Any other suggestions Madshi?
You may want to try orbitlee's filter. It can replace the Sonic HD Demuxer. You can tell eac3to to use orbitlee's filter instead of the Sonic HD Demuxer. However, I rather guess that if the Sonic HD Demuxer won't work, the Sonic Audio Decoder probably won't work, either.

I've got the same problem (with input *.mlp). I'm using Sonic CinePlayer HD DVD Decoder v4.2, but i've no idea where to get/buy v4.3. I can't find it on http://www.sonic.com/products/Consumer/
Currently the only way to get the Sonic v4.3 filters is through Sonic Cinevision 2.0.2. It's rather expensive, though! Hopefully they'll soon update their much cheaper Decoder set which you can buy separately. I believe only v4.3 supports MLP files. With v4.2 you're out of luck, IIRC.

eas4uk

16th July 2007, 18:13

Ok so im sure its my Sonic set up now as installed everything onto my laptop last night and tried it and it worked fine on there...

So why wont it work on the PC after I uninstall and reinstall - is there some registry settings that I need to delete after the uninstall to completely wipe it from the system???

ACrowley

16th July 2007, 18:15

try to install 4.1 Package, then 4.2 over it

I had same Problems...

xkodi

16th July 2007, 18:17

I believe only v4.3 supports MLP files. With v4.2 you're out of luck, IIRC.

4.2.0.840 also works with MLP, it's the first version, that i know to work with MLP, the previous 4.2.0.102 version doesn't work with MLP.

otaku975

17th July 2007, 19:53

whats the right extension for TRUEHD track ?
.dts ?

thanks

madshi

17th July 2007, 22:00

whats the right extension for TRUEHD track ?
.dts ?
Definitely not .dts. Maybe using .mlp would make sense. Or maybe .thd. Don't know if there is an "official" extension for TrueHD tracks yet. Personally, I'm using .thd.

eas4uk

18th July 2007, 22:18

try to install 4.1 Package, then 4.2 over it

I had same Problems...

Right then - against ACrowley's advice, I have just done a fresh install of XP and after installing all progs, filters, codecs etc...

The problem is still here!

So, after some head scratching, I deregistered the dtsac3source.ax file I'd previously registered when installing everything, and presto! Sonic is working again!

Edit: spoke to soon - D'oh forgot I need that filter to convert eac3 to ac3 - Anybody know why this filter is giving me grief then - Sonic wont work after I reinstall so its definitely this

topace1

19th July 2007, 02:37

madshi

19th July 2007, 08:28

I tried it by using command line "eac3to source.eac3 target.ac3", but got error message "Parsing of Dolby Digital headers failed".
Are you sure that this file is really a eac3 track? Maybe it's something else? What happens if you drop the mkv file into the "mkvtoolnix" tool? What audio track type does that tool report?

eas4uk

20th July 2007, 16:39

Right then - against ACrowley's advice, I have just done a fresh install of XP and after installing all progs, filters, codecs etc...

The problem is still here!

So, after some head scratching, I deregistered the dtsac3source.ax file I'd previously registered when installing everything, and presto! Sonic is working again!

Edit: spoke to soon - D'oh forgot I need that filter to convert eac3 to ac3 - Anybody know why this filter is giving me grief then - Sonic wont work after I reinstall so its definitely this

is there a different filter I can try instead of the dtsac3source.ax ?

Madshi - How would I go about using Orbitlee opposed to Sonic btw?

madshi

20th July 2007, 17:15

Madshi - How would I go about using Orbitlee opposed to Sonic btw?
See first post in this thread.

ACrowley

21st July 2007, 10:15

Hi Madshi,

I'm glad that I have found this tool from here. I tried it by using command line "eac3to source.eac3 target.ac3", but got error message "Parsing of Dolby Digital headers failed". I'm a newbie, I don't know what the problem is and how to solve it.

The eac3 file was extracted from a mkv video using mkvextract.exe ("mkvextract tracks xxxx.mkv --raw 2:xxxx.eac3").

I'm using Windows XP Sp2, and have "Sonic HD Demuxer", "Sonic Audio Decoder 4.2" and "Dump" filter installed.

Thank you!

Remember there a few Formats which ar not working anymore after demuxing from mkv. To bad.
WVC1 Video, FLAC Audio...Perhaps EAC3 cant be used anymore too, after demuxing

I will try it

EDIT
I found a working Way how to demux EAC3 from mkv. Use Avimux 1.17.7
Select "extarct Binary" and you will get a full working EAC3

topace1

21st July 2007, 14:37

Are you sure that this file is really a eac3 track? Maybe it's something else? What happens if you drop the mkv file into the "mkvtoolnix" tool? What audio track type does that tool report?

mkvtoolnix shows it's e-ac3. maybe something is wrong with this file, because i tried another file, it worked! so everything is fine. Thanks for your kind reply!

Remember there a few Formats which ar not working anymore after demuxing from mkv. To bad....

I found a working Way how to demux EAC3 from mkv. Use Avimux 1.17.7
Select "extarct Binary" and you will get a full working EAC3

Thank you for the information. I'm newbie in this area and learning. I will try Avimux.

eas4uk

21st July 2007, 14:55

See first post in this thread.

Where do I download the orbitlee filter - ive googled it but not coming up with much :confused:

arty

22nd July 2007, 08:55

xkodi

22nd July 2007, 10:14

can somebody just summarize all the above?

like:
5.1 TrueHD track -> nero filters(all version?) -> DRC applied, not recommended
5.1 TrueHD track -> sonic filters(version?) -> noise, only 2.0, not recommended
5.1 TrueHD track -> no possible conversion without DRC

5.1 DD+ track -> nero filters(all version?) -> DRC applied, not recommended
5.1 DD+ track -> sonic filters(version?) -> perfect output
5.1 DD+ track -> sonic filters(version?) are highly recommended

?

or at least can somebody pls correct/finish my example?

Thank you!

Nero filters:

- Nero Audio Decoder 2 (NeAudio2.ax)
- Nero File Source Async. (NeFileSourceAsync.ax)
- Nero Splitter Filter (NeSplitter.ax)

all 3 files from the same Nero version has same versions:

1) 4.9.4.1 (Nero version 7.8.5.0)
2) 4.10.5.0 (Nero version 7.9.6.0)
3) 4.11.3.1 (Nero version 7.10.1.0)

all versions of Nero filters, behave exactly the same with MLP and TrueHD tracks

Sonic filters:

- Sonic HD Audio Decoder (CinemasterAudio.dll)
- Sonic HD Demuxer (SonicHDDemuxer.dll)

0) CinemasterAudio.dll v4.2.0.102, SonicHDDemuxer.dll v4.2.0.61
1) CinemasterAudio.dll v4.2.0.840, SonicHDDemuxer.dll v4.2.0.59
2) CinemasterAudio.dll v4.3.0.151, SonicHDDemuxer.dll v4.3.0.73
3) CinemasterAudio.dll v4.3.0.169, SonicHDDemuxer.dll v4.3.0.89

0) is from "Sonic CinePlayer HD-DVD Decoder v4.2" and as far as i know is the first version capable of DD+ decoding, but can't decode MLP and TrueHD tracks
1) is from "Sonic CineVision v1.2"
2) is from "Sonic CineVision 2.0.2beta"
3) is from "Sonic CineVision 2.0.2final"
all 1)-3) can decode MLP and TrueHD tracks

5.1 TrueHD track -> Nero filters, all versions -> DRC applied, not recommended
MLP track in EVOB -> Nero filters, all versions -> perfect output
raw MLP track -> Nero filters, all versions -> doesn't work

5.1 TrueHD track -> Sonic filters, versions 1)-3) -> noise, only 2.0, not recommended
MLP track in EVOB -> Sonic filters, versions 1)-3) -> perfect output
raw MLP track -> Sonic filters, versions 1)-3) -> perfect output

5.1 TrueHD track -> no possible conversion without DRC
MLP track in EVOB and raw MLP track -> perfect output is possible

i don't have experience with DD+, so someone else should tell.

Wilbert

22nd July 2007, 21:26

@xkodi and others,

I'm using this version:
3) CinemasterAudio.dll v4.3.0.169, SonicHDDemuxer.dll v4.3.0.89

When using a 5.1_96kHz_24bit MLP stream (i'm sure it's 96kHz by looking at the MLP header), the stream is "converted" to (passed through as ?) 88.2kHz:

http://www.geocities.com/wilbertdijkhof/sonic_hddemuxer.jpg

MLP header info:

http://www.geocities.com/wilbertdijkhof/mlp_header.jpg

Do you also have this problem? (When playing the graph the audio seems fine, so it's not mangled up ...) When loading the graph in AviSynth with directshowsource.dll the samplerate is also reported as 88.2kHz.

ACrowley

23rd July 2007, 12:55

i don't have experience with DD+, so someone else should tell.

SonicCinemasterAudioDecoder applies DRC on EAC3 Decoding.
NeroAudioDecoder2 not
So its recommend to use only Nero Decoder to decode EAC3

honai

23rd July 2007, 18:12

Which is the default decoder on the eac3to command-line for DD+, Sonic or Nero?

madshi

23rd July 2007, 22:41

When using a 5.1_96kHz_24bit MLP stream (i'm sure it's 96kHz by looking at the MLP header), the stream is "converted" to (passed through as ?) 88.2kHz
That's a bit strange, but it's not completely without sense, as 48khz and 44.1khz are the usual frequences and 88.2khz happens to be exacty 2 * 44.1khz. Personally, I don't have any MLP files with 96khz, so I can't reproduce the problem. My only MLP sources are movie tracks and they seem to be 48khz only at this point in time.

madshi

23rd July 2007, 22:41

Which is the default decoder on the eac3to command-line for DD+, Sonic or Nero?
Sonic is currently the default decoder. You can force nero with a switch (see first post of this thread).

xkodi

24th July 2007, 11:08

That's a bit strange, but it's not completely without sense, as 48khz and 44.1khz are the usual frequences and 88.2khz happens to be exacty 2 * 44.1khz. Personally, I don't have any MLP files with 96khz, so I can't reproduce the problem. My only MLP sources are movie tracks and they seem to be 48khz only at this point in time.

i will test that in a few hours and post back the results ...

hristoff2

24th July 2007, 13:27

Nero filters seem to apply DRC though...need to compare Sonic Decoder and Nero output first but I'm kind of disappointed after comparing DVD and Nero output. (dvd center wav vs. nero center wav)

arty

24th July 2007, 14:59

thank you xkodi, ACrowley, hristoff2!

this means we should NOT convert/playback DD+ or TrueHD with any codec because of the DRC :( bad news ... really bad.

even if we'll have a hdmi audio output we can not enjoy the HD discs with our PC :( the whole industy s*cks :( we are forced to use expensive set-top-hddvd/bd/players 'coz maybe intervideo/cybelink decoders also produce bad output we just don't know ... :(

An old dvd will sound better with its low bitrate ac3 track than a DRC'ed TrueHD track :(

hristoff2

24th July 2007, 15:13

Actually my version current version of Nero (and it's filters) could be corrupt. (7.9.6.0)

Trying 7.8.5.0 now...latest test I did (30mins before) I encountered that Sonic @ "quiet environment" was even more dynamic than the output of my Nero 7.9.6.0 and it's filters. :mad:
Nero's DRC can be turned off in Nero Showtime though...but until now I thought this would be directed to TrueHD decoding only...I wonder if anyone actually made tests like this:

Sonic vs. Nero
Nero vs. DVD
Sonic vs. DVD

http://nwgat.net/woot/files/51/comparison_thumb.png (http://nwgat.net/woot/files/51/comparison.png)

I could provide all this stuff (the ac3 files) and the eac3 file with the correct timecodes if someone can explain how to cut an eac3 file.

honai

24th July 2007, 18:34

I encountered that Sonic @ "quiet environment" was even more dynamic

Do you mean it was "more dynamic" or "more compressed"? (compression as in dynamic range compression) EDIT: Never mind, just took a look at the screenshot and saw what you mean.

@arty, hristoff2

Thanks for your investigation. I've made a post in the other forum summarizing the situation.

madshi

24th July 2007, 19:20

Wow, that looks really bad. It's about time we get a useful ffmpeg E-AC3 decoder. Hopefully Google Summer of Code will help!

ACrowley

24th July 2007, 19:54

Mh.... i thought too Nero will not apply DRC on DD+ ?
But Sonic does surely

Sonic Decoder Output sounds always louder...on AC3 too compared to AC3 Filter

Mhh i dont think we can 100% compare a DVD AC3 with EAC3 .Shouldnt EAC3 sound mor dynamic so the Waveform is different...
But Sonic shows no differenc between quite and normal..it was reported in few Threads

But no doubt....the comaprisons Screens show Nero is more Flat

However, encoded AC3 from DD+ sounds good imho. Also i usually mux the untouched EAC3 into my reencodes, so....

This is a sample from EAC3 ( Serenity HDDVD 1536kbps)
Both Center waves are loaded into Audacity
1st in Nero 2nd Sonic

http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/Comparison_thumb.png
(http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/Comparison.png)

hristoff2

24th July 2007, 20:05

Wow, that looks really bad. It's about time we get a useful ffmpeg E-AC3 decoder. Hopefully Google Summer of Code will help!

It gets worse o_O
...
Just saw it and thought it's relatively comparable...take a look at this huge shit:

http://nwgat.net/woot/files/51/comparison_2_thumb.png (http://nwgat.net/woot/files/51/comparison_2.PNG)

...so we've got 2x shit, but nero is even shittier because it's 1/2 loud. (compare overall volume from Nero to DVD and Sonic to DVD...Sonic has at least the correct "overall" volume)

honai

24th July 2007, 20:21

As long as the range remains the same as in the original it's no big deal, you just turn up the volume knob. From the screenshot it looks as if Nero's output is really just quieter but not less dynamic than Sonic's.

hristoff2

24th July 2007, 20:26

ACrowley

24th July 2007, 20:57

Sure, but that means it's 1:0 for Sonic because it has one issue less than Nero. :D

yeah..but what is the Reference ? As i say i dont know i f we can compare EAC3 and AC3 so easy..dont think so

However..most reencodes from EAC sound better as DVD AC3

honai

24th July 2007, 21:17

most reencodes from EAC sound better as DVD AC3

... in your own humble opinion. ;)

Maybe it's time for another double-blind listening test: DRCed EAC3->AC3 vs AC3 from DVD. :)

ACrowley

24th July 2007, 21:25

... in your own humble opinion. ;)

Maybe it's time for another double-blind listening test: DRCed EAC3->AC3 vs AC3 from DVD. :)

Hey Kollega..."humble opinion" ? Cool down!
Sometimes a reencode from a 1536Kbps EAC3 sounds better as a 384Kbps 5.1 from DVD

honai

24th July 2007, 21:28

ACrowley

24th July 2007, 21:42

Sorry if it came across as offensive, it wasn't meant to be. I was just trying to point out that the general claim "most reencodes from EAC sound better as DVD AC3" shouldn't be made without more empirical data.

No Problem....
Ofcourse you can say it Generally..
But for example a reencode from 1.5Mbps EAC3 to 640Kbps AC3 or to 768kbps 24Bit WMA 5.1 (when i encode WVC1) sounds better ,compared with a standard 384kbps DVD AC3..not always, but often.
Thats what i mean

And about the AC3-EAC3 Comparison .. How was the Wave decoded from AC3 ?
I mean there can be a huge difference between the Methods how the wave was decoded from AC3
Example :
Source is AC3 (untouched) 448kbps.
Decoded with :ffdshow raw dump(no DRC)/ SteinbergNuendo(no DRC)/ Tranzcode 0.4(no DRC)/ Besweet(no DRC in Command)

Example :

http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/other/Audacity%20AC3_thumb.png
(http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/other/Audacity%20AC3.png)

You can see there the Waveform is different. All without DRC.
I would say Steinberg Nuendos AC3 Decoder is Refernce because its a off. Pro. Dolby Decoder/Encoder ( same Result with Digigram,Softencode Decoder)

arty

25th July 2007, 11:42

interesting ... I made my comparsions with azid too ! (besweet uses azid)

maybe it decodes wrong? I haven't applied normalisation either but the waveform looked similar to your example...

ACrowley

25th July 2007, 11:58

interesting ... I made my comparsions with azid too ! (besweet uses azid)

maybe it decodes wrong? I haven't applied normalisation either but the waveform looked similar to your example...
Maybe it has something to do with the Downmix Overflows or DRC is active even its not present in the commandline

A made a RMS Calculation on all Center Wave samples.
Source is AC3 448Kbps 5.1 has -27db DialogNormalization

- Nuendo AC3 Decoder,Soft Encode Decoder, ffdshow Dump : -30,4 db
- Besweet : -20db
- Cyberlink AudioDecoder :-24db
- SonicCinemasterAudioDecoder 4.2 : - 22,08db
- NeroAudioDecoder2 : -30,4db

Heres the Wavestructure in Audacity from Reference Nuendo compared with Nero and Besweet and Sonic4.3

http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/ok_thumb.png
(http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/ok.png)

I cant see anything wrong with NeroAudioDecoder2, its has the same Values and Structure as the Dolby Decoder from Nuendo and SoftEncode

PS, Sry my English is terrible

ACrowley

25th July 2007, 13:36

Now the Tests with AC3 and EAC3 Samples

1. AC3 with Nuendo (its the same Result with ffdshow dump and Softencode Dolby Decoder)
2. EAC3 with Nero
3. EAC3 with Sonic

http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/other/eac3_thumb.png
(http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/other/eac3.png)

The AC3 was decoded with SteinbergNuendo 3.2
EAC3 with Nero and Sonic

RMS Values :
- AC3 with Nuendo : -30,9db ( same with ffdshow dump and Softencode decoder)
- EAC3 with Nero : -30,5db
- EAC3 with Sonic : -22,4db

arty

25th July 2007, 14:35

thanks for the explanation, seems really professional :)

don't you have the same track in TrueHD ? So you could add a decoded trueHD wav into the comparsion ... (1 x ac3 + 2 x eac3 + 1 x truehd)

ACrowley

25th July 2007, 16:01

thanks for the explanation, seems really professional :)

don't you have the same track in TrueHD ? So you could add a decoded trueHD wav into the comparsion ... (1 x ac3 + 2 x eac3 + 1 x truehd)

i will see...I cant say anthing sure for TrueHD at the Moment

tebasuna51

25th July 2007, 17:42

interesting ... I made my comparsions with azid too ! (besweet uses azid)

maybe it decodes wrong? I haven't applied normalisation either but the waveform looked similar to your example...
To clarify the behavior of ac3 decoders I make a test with:

- NicAudio.dll (AviSynth plugin)
- Azid (standalone or with BeSweet)
- Cyberlink PowerDvd Audio decoder (Dolby Digital certified ?)
- ffdshow

Decoder test over a 5.1 regular ac3 with Dialog Norm. = -27 dB
All decoders without Dynamic Range Compression.

(dB values) NicAudio Azid() Azid(-n1) Cyberlink ffdshow
-------------- -------- ------- --------- --------- -------
RMS power ch0: -29.31 -29.31 -33.30 -33.31 -33.29
RMS power ch1: -27.90 -27.90 -31.91 -31.92 -31.91
RMS power ch2: -20.21 -20.21 -24.20 -24.22 -24.20
RMS power ch3: -47.67 -47.68 -51.68 -51.68 -51.67
RMS power ch4: -31.46 -31.46 -35.47 -35.48 -35.46
RMS power ch5: -33.61 -33.62 -37.62 -37.63 -37.62

Like you can see NicAudio and Azid without parameters are 4 dB loud than Cyberlink, ffdshow and Azid(-n1).

When we send the -n1 parameter to Azid is: apply the Dialog Normalization (31 - 27) = 4 dB attenuated.

Then Cyberlink and ffdshow apply this attenuation by default (correct because are players).

But if we want recode the signal, we don't need this attenuation, then the adequate decoders are Azid() or NicAudio (or apply +4 dB to others decoders)

Edit: SoftEncode Decoder have four decode modes with results between NicAudio and more attenuated (drc applied).

ACrowley

25th July 2007, 17:53

My RMs Values was taken from Adobe Audition..
On the Center Channel only..

With certified i mean the Decoder/Encode from Nuendo is a prof. Dolby Software, not a Dshow Decoder like Cyberlink with a Playback license from Dolby
I think Nuendo is a Reference Decoder.
The Values from Nuendo (or Digigran,Softencode) are always around -30db, Azid always around -22-25db

Softencode Decoder with DRC "Line Out" should be (?) "no DRC" it has ~ -30db in my Tests
Line Out means for me it goes out as it comes in, without the touch from DRC...i think so

tebasuna51

25th July 2007, 18:14

With certified i mean the Decoder/Encode from Nuendo is a prof. Dolby Software

If you are a owner of a certified encoder/decoder you can make a definitive test:

Use a 5.1 wav and encode to ac3, after decode to wav, the rms values from source and decoded wav must be the same.

ACrowley

26th July 2007, 07:41

If you are a owner of a certified encoder/decoder you can make a definitive test:

Use a 5.1 wav and encode to ac3, after decode to wav, the rms values from source and decoded wav must be the same.

Yep ,its the same..

I decode AC3 to wave in Steinberg Nuendo with the Dolby Decoder.
Then the reencode with Steinberg Nuendos Dolby encoder.

Always with -31db DialogNormalization and no DRC.
So i get the same Volume Level compared to the wave source

And as i say, Nero is always right with ~- 30db

tebasuna51

26th July 2007, 09:09

I decode AC3 to wave in Steinberg Nuendo with the Dolby Decoder.
Then the reencode with Steinberg Nuendos Dolby encoder.

Always with -31db DialogNormalization and no DRC.
So i get the same Volume Level compared to the wave source

And as i say, Nero is always right with ~- 30db
Calling a0.ac3 the ac3 source, decoded to a0.wav.

Encode to a1.ac3 with -27db (or other value distinct of -31) DialogNormalization and no DRC.

Decode to a1.wav with Steinberg Nuendo Dolby decoder, to a2.wav with Azid and to a3.wav with Azid -n1.

Please put:
Rms a0_center (source)
Rms a1_center (Nuendo decoded)
Rms a2_center (Azid decoded)
Rms a3_center (Azid -n1 decoded)

ACrowley

26th July 2007, 15:05

Your requested Test on AC3 from DVD 448kbpos Center Ch, (90% without) Dialog

http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/other/test_thumb.png
(http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/other/test.png)

RMS a0_Center : -25.23db
RMS a1_Center : -25.24db
RMS a2_Center : -25.24db
RMS a3_Center : -25.25db

No difference in Waveform. No difference in loud Environmet Sounds.

##################################

Other Tests on the untouched AC3 Source (this new Sample works better as my Test above)
RMS Values :

a0_Center Nuendo : -25.24db
a0_Center azid no DRC : - 12.38db
a0_Center azid with DRC : -21.22db
a0_Center Tranzcode, no Option : -21.23db

The disabled DRC from azid works well, cause some Parts in the Wave with loud Environmet have Full Dynamics, no Compression
With DRC the whole wave is small.
Nuendo and Tranzcode wave looks flat all time long...I dont know if its only a Volume difference, because i cant imagine Nuendo applies DRC ?

http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/other/nuendo_thumb.png
(http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/other/nuendo.png)

When you compare it now with the Results above...why are all louder Parts from the Source wave are not present as like as from Besweet/ffdshow ?
I cant Image Nuendo applies DRC..but it looks like DRC, no dynamic Parts anymore. When i compare it with Nero its the same

tebasuna51

26th July 2007, 17:41

With your last test seems:

- Nuendo apply DRC and Dialog Norm.
- Azid-DRC only DRC
- Azid nothing (full dynamic)
- ffdshow only Dialog Norm.
- Tranzcode only DRC

madshi

26th July 2007, 17:54

You guys are confusing me. Now I'm totally unsure which E-AC3 and AC3 decoder should be used...

:confused:

Anyway, just keep on researching. Hopefully we'll find out exactly which decoder is the way to go. Personally, I've just done some TrueHD checks. Here are my results:

(1) In Nero ShowTime the DRC setting shows an effect. Basically with DRC turned on the peaks are not as loud as without DRC turned off, but the rest of the audio track is more or less unchanged.

(2) With eac3to or GraphEdit, the Nero output is identical to Nero ShowTime with DRC turned *OFF*. It doesn't matter if DRC is turned on/off in ShowTime. In eac3to and GraphEdit DRC seems to be always turned off.

(3) PowerDVD knows 3 different settings: Quiet, Normal and Noisy. In my tests Quiet and Normal are identical and the WAV looks similar to Nero's output with DRC turned off. When using PowerDVD with "Noisy" the output is even more compressed than with Nero DRC turned on.

(4) Sonic is totally useless. It's much louder than anything else. And there's noise in every channel. Strangely, if you compare the Sonic WAV to Nero/PowerDVD, the center information seems to talk over into Left/Right channels in the Sonic decoder. Something fishy going on there.

(5) Unfortunately Nero's output for 16bit TrueHD tracks contains full 24bit information. That means, Nero must be doing some processing on the 16bit decoder output. It doesn't seem to be DRC to me. Must be something else. This is bad for reencoding, obviously.

(6) Unfortunately PowerDVD always only output 16bit, even if the TrueHD track is 24bit!! As a result I'm not totally sure if PowerDVD leaves the 16bit decoder output untouched. Maybe it does, maybe not.

It seems that there is no really good TrueHD available yet. Nero's and PowerDVD's WAVs look quite similar in Audacity, but the bits are different. PowerDVD is always 16bit, Nero is always 24bit.

All I wrote above is strictly only about TrueHD decoding.

madshi

26th July 2007, 17:58

Nero DRC off / Nero DRC on
http://madshi.net/TrueHD/Nero.noDRC_.png (http://madshi.net/TrueHD/Nero.noDRC.png)http://madshi.net/TrueHD/Nero.DRC_.png (http://madshi.net/TrueHD/Nero.DRC.png)

PowerDVD DRC off / PowerDVD DRC "noisy"
http://madshi.net/TrueHD/PowerDVD.noDRC_.png (http://madshi.net/TrueHD/PowerDVD.noDRC.png)http://madshi.net/TrueHD/PowerDVD.Noisy_.png (http://madshi.net/TrueHD/PowerDVD.Noisy.png)

Sonic
http://madshi.net/TrueHD/Sonic_.png (http://madshi.net/TrueHD/Sonic.png)

d0ORk

26th July 2007, 18:06

I tried to convert the audio stream that EVODemux made.
But I'm getting an error:
Muxing evo's first audio track to raw. Please wait...
The demuxer didn't accept the source file.

Is it an issue with EVODemux?

madshi

26th July 2007, 18:15

Is it an issue with EVODemux?
That's very hard to say. It could be an issue with EvoDemux. But more likely the Sonic filters refuse to work on your PC. Try playing the Evo with PowerDVD (if you have that installed). With the latest update patch PowerDVD player EVO files with only a TrueHD track just fine for me. If PowerDVD plays your EVO fine, then the EVO is probably ok.

d0ORk

26th July 2007, 18:22

mhh. the video works, but not the audio file that EVODemux made. At least, PowerDVD breaks down if I want to play it.
Any other idea how to demux the audio? Good is, that EVODemux merges the 2 evo files into one (video)

madshi

26th July 2007, 19:05

@d0ORk, which audio format is that?

d0ORk

26th July 2007, 19:10

it's DD+ on the Test HDDVD

arty

26th July 2007, 19:22

I think I completly lost :D

... of course thank you for your efforts!

ACrowley

26th July 2007, 21:12

With your last test seems:

- Nuendo apply DRC and Dialog Norm.
- Azid-DRC only DRC
- Azid nothing (full dynamic)
- ffdshow only Dialog Norm.
- Tranzcode only DRC

yep, youre right...theres obviously no other possibility. So it makes my 1st Test useless!!

Nuendo certified Dolby Decoder seems to apply both, DRC and Dialog Normalization.
Can be true ,because you can see in the Options from Soft Encode Dolby Decoder and from Digigram, (both older certified Dolby Dec-Enc Versions) that youve few Options to change DRC and Dialog Norm for Ac3 to pcm decoding
But You cant change Decoder Options in Nuendo.
So Nuendos/Cubase default seems to be DRC/Dialog Norm Output, not nice..all my last AC3 reencodes from last the Years are all from Nuendo 3.2 :)

Anybody know which Decoder Option is 100% "no" DRC AND Dialog Normalization in SoftEncode ? There are following DRC Decoder Options :
-Custom Analog /Dialog Norm
-Custom Mode / Digital Dialog Norm
-Line Out
-RF Remod Mode

The Softencode wave and RMS Values looks as like as Besweet (no DRC enabled) when RF Remod Mode is active. All other Modes are as like as Nuendo or Tranzcode.

I found this :
"Normal is similiar to 'Line out mode' and Heavy is similiar to 'RF-remod mode' of Sonic Foundary Soft Encode. It seems the WinDVD directshow filter (iviaudio.ax) invokes Heavy DRC also. However, Heavy is NOT recommended
because it usually results in obvious volume transitions, especially for music titles. "-Hiroko Hori (author of DVD2AVI) "

So ,why is the Wave with RF Mod from SoftEncode Output (DRC according to the Posting) the same compared with Besweet and "no" DRC ? Its all reversed ?!
Soft Encode Setting at "Line Out" is as like as Nuendo

All i want is to find a reference to decode AC3 to Wave "without DRC and Dialog Normalization.
Then i can compare TrueHD/EAC3 with AC3

madshi

26th July 2007, 22:05

it's DD+ on the Test HDDVD
Well, demuxing + decoding via eac3to should work fine. There's no need to keep DD+ inside the EVO.

d0ORk

26th July 2007, 22:15

It cant decode it

Q:\test>"D:\_eac3to\eac3to.exe" "Q:\test\PEVOB_1_MERGED.rebuilt.
EVO" "Q:\test\PEVOB_1_MERGED.DD.6ch.s03.German 5.1.ac3" -448 -24
Muxing evo's first audio track to raw. Please wait...
Converting the raw file to wav. Please wait...
Converting the wav file to ac3. Please wait...

Aften: A/52 audio encoder
Version 0.07
(c) 2006-2007 Justin Ruggles, Prakash Punnoor, et al.

invalid or empty chunk in wav header
invalid wav file: -b
"aften" reported error code "1". A valid *.wav file was created sucessfully, tho
ugh.

Q:\test>

madshi

26th July 2007, 22:22

Try another Aften build. Maybe revision 449 or 433.

d0ORk

26th July 2007, 22:37

I just watched the .raw file while demuxing. It's just the name like 'example.raw' but it's always 0byte :(

tebasuna51

27th July 2007, 01:42

All i want is to find a reference to decode AC3 to Wave "without DRC and Dialog Normalization.
Then i can compare TrueHD/EAC3 with AC3

Like I say you, use Azid-BeSweet, NicAudio-AviSynth or Foobar also.

ACrowley

27th July 2007, 07:24

Like I say you, use Azid-BeSweet, NicAudio-AviSynth or Foobar also.

Yeah..sure.
To bad that Nuendo decodes with DRC/DN without Options to change it ( 1000$ Software!)

But still 2 Questions :

1. Which Softencode DRC Mode is without DRC/DialogN. ?
2. Besweet Downmix Overflows
Its no Problem so far i know..only a warning and is relevant when downmixing to 2Ch right ?

greets

d0ORk

27th July 2007, 07:24

Somehow I got it to work. :)
But theres a problem left...

Q:\test>"D:\_eac3to\eac3to.exe" "Q:\test\PEVOB_1_MERGED.DD.6ch.s
03.German 5.1.ddp" "Q:\corpse_demux\PEVOB_1_MERGED.DD.6ch.s03.German 5.1.ac3"
-448
E-AC3, 5.1 channels, 1:17:12, 640kbit/s, 48khz
Muxing eac3 file to raw. Please wait...
The NCBENUM return code is: 0x0
The NCBENUM return code is: 0x0
Audio Decoder output was 24 bit this time.
Unfortunately the Audio Decoder has output only 2 channels.
Converting the raw file to wav. Please wait...
Converting the wav file to ac3. Please wait...

Aften: A/52 audio encoder
Version SVN
(c) 2006-2007 Justin Ruggles, Prakash Punnoor, et al.

input format: Signed 24-bit 48000 Hz 5.1-channel
output format: 48000 Hz 3/2 + LFE

progress: 100% | q: 233.2 | bw: 34.0 | bitrate: 448.0 kbps

Done.

Q:\test>

How can I get it to be 5.1?

Thanks for your help

arty

27th July 2007, 07:52

Yeah..sure.
To bad that Nuendo decodes with DRC/DN without Options to change it ( 1000% Software!)

But still 2 Questions :

1. Which Softencode DRC Mode is without DRC/DialogN. ?
2. Besweet Downmix Overflows
Its no Problem so far i know..only a warning and is relevant when downmixing to 2Ch right ?

greets

I got overflows even when set -6ch in besweet ... (decode to 6 mono waves). So the resulted wavs' waveform seems a bit "flat" where they reached the "maximum" ... :(

madshi

27th July 2007, 08:20

Unfortunately the Audio Decoder has output only 2 channels.
Try changing the Sonic filter settings (see Control Panel -> CinePlayer).

d0ORk

27th July 2007, 09:05

it works.
Thanks for all your help.
Now I'm trying to get the thing to .mkv with megui.
Wish me some luck. :rolleyes:

ACrowley

27th July 2007, 10:00

I got overflows even when set -6ch in besweet ... (decode to 6 mono waves). So the resulted wavs' waveform seems a bit "flat" where they reached the "maximum" ... :(

So far i know it has no Effect. Its only a Warning.
But maybe it can cause Problems when you donwmix 5.1 to stereo.
But when you decode all channles it will not have any Effect

Anway, The Optimum would be to decode AC3 to wave with certified Dolby Decoder.
To Bad Nunedo outputs DRC without any Decoder Options ( 1000$!)
Soft Encode/Digigram has a Dolby Decoder too ( Dolby Engine too)..but as i say above i dont know wich Option means 100% "No" DRC/D.N

Besweet/Foobar is fine so far

tebasuna51

27th July 2007, 13:25

So far i know it has no Effect. Its only a Warning.
But maybe it can cause Problems when you donwmix 5.1 to stereo.
But when you decode all channles it will not have any Effect
The typical azid warning:
W7: Downmix overflow (1: +0dB)
is not related with channels downmix and is produced when the decoder, translating from frequency domain to time domain, reach a value upper to 0 dB and can't be translated exactly.

Is not a problem and must be assumed like others imperfections in the encoder/decoder process with lossy formats.

Soft Encode/Digigram has a Dolby Decoder too ( Dolby Engine too)..but as i say above i dont know wich Option means 100% "No" DRC/D.N
But when RF Remod is similar to heavy(=loud) it should be the Full Dynamic Range, it makes Sense. Lineout= DRC+DN
- Custom analog: DRC only
- Custom digital: DRC + DN
- Line Out: also DRC + DN
- RF Remod Mode: DRC + Gain (+8 dB in my sample but I don't know the reason)

Then RF Remod Mode is not Full Dynamic Range.

ACrowley

27th July 2007, 13:50

The typical azid warning:
W7: Downmix overflow (1: +0dB)
is not related with channels downmix and is produced when the decoder, translating from frequency domain to time domain, reach a value upper to 0 dB and can't be translated exactly.

Is not a problem and must be assumed like others imperfections in the encoder/decoder process with lossy formats.

- Custom analog: DRC only
- Custom digital: DRC + DN
- Line Out: also DRC + DN
- RF Remod Mode: DRC + Gain (+8 dB in my sample but I don't know the reason)

Then RF Remod Mode is not Full Dynamic Range.

Yes, youre Right, thats waht it looks like :

http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/other/soft_thumb.png
(http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/other/soft.png)

I made AC3 reencodes from all waves . These Settings should keep alwys Source Volume Level:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=118759&highlight=Sony+Vegas

The AC3 Reencode from Azid Waves with disabled DRC/DN sounds perfect :) Same Dynamics/Wavestructure/RMS Value ,compared with the AC3 Source.

Reencodes from SoftEncode "RF Mode Wave" plays at lower Volume in loud Dynamic Parts but a little bit gained...so youre Right
I cant find any Soft Encode decoding Mode with all disabled and full Dynamic Range..strange

At least you can see in the Screenshot NeroAudioDecoder decodes AC3 with full DRC+DialogNormalization.
No Effect from Showtime Options. Sonic applies DRC and or DialogN. too.

However , the AC3 decoding Thing is cleared for me. THX :)

madshi

27th July 2007, 16:47

@ACrowley, could you make that test ac3 file available, please?

ACrowley

27th July 2007, 17:44

Once again with TrueHD ,This is from the 300 HDDVD :

http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/other/300_thumb.png (http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/other/300.png)

The Decoded Wave has less dynamics as like as the DVD AC 448kbps

I tried to change the NeroShowtime Options, but no Effect!

@ACrowley, could you make that test ac3 file available, please?
I used this AC3 file for my last Test.
This AC3 Sample is perfect for a Testrun because it has a lot of dynamic Sounds and a Speech Part

http://rapidshare.com/files/45393728/untouched_AC3_Reference_Sample.ac3.html

EDIT:
...can be true maybe its only DalogNormalization
I will compare it with Azid and DialogNormalization

madshi

27th July 2007, 18:46

Nero applies DRC on TrueHD Decoding. The Decoded Wave has less dynamics as like as the DVD AC 448kbps
Are you sure that it's not just lower volume (dialnorm?)? Looking at the screenshot it seems to me that everything is just not as loud as in the AC3 WAV.

In your previous tests with the Serenity AC3, the first half of the AC3 was significantly compressed with the DRC decoders, but the 2nd half was more or less identical to the non DRC decoders. So there it was clearly visible that the DRC compresses some parts of the track but not everything. In your 300 test I don't see this behaviour. It seems to me that the whole TrueHD decode is just of lower volume.

Or am I wrong?

I used this AC3 file for my last Test.
This AC3 Sample is perfect for a Testrun because it has a lot of dynamic Sounds and a Speech Part
Yeah, that's a very good test AC3. Thanks!

madshi

27th July 2007, 19:14

Here are my test results with Nero. I've tried the Nero filters through GraphEdit. And I've also checked what Nero outputs if you use Nero "ShowTime". It seems that the DRC setting in ShowTime does affect AC3 decoding, but only inside of ShowTime. When using the Nero filter in GraphEdit, AC3 decoding seems to have very strong DRC applied. Here are the results:

http://madshi.net/TrueHD/neroac3_.png (http://madshi.net/TrueHD/neroac3.png)

First wav is "Nero filter in GraphEdit". Second wav is "ShowTime with DRC turned on to 50%". Third wav is "ShowTime with DRC turned off". The third wav looks fine to me. It seems to have dialnorm applied, but no DRC.

Wilbert

27th July 2007, 19:27

Try changing the Sonic filter settings (see Control Panel -> CinePlayer).
Any idea what the environment setting is doing in the audio tab?

madshi

27th July 2007, 20:58

Any idea what the environment setting is doing in the audio tab?
Nope.

ACrowley

28th July 2007, 04:42

Are you sure that it's not just lower volume (dialnorm?)? Looking at the screenshot it seems to me that everything is just not as loud as in the AC3 WAV.
Or am I wrong?

Yeah..youre Right ! Nero applies "only" DilaogNormalization on theTrueHD ! No DRC
However, the Difference is big compared with azid Full dynmics without DCR/DialogN

http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/azid2_thumb.png
(http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/azid2.png)

I will make more Test if i can get a difference when i change Showtime Options. But in my last Tests i cant

We could get a final Result when somebody compare 300 HDDVD True HD it with the 300 Bluray LPCM
---
@Madhsi
I ask you again.. ? How do you dump the wave from my AC3 Test sample in your Test without DRC ? Your Graph etc ?
I cant get any effect when changing Showtime Options.
I mean its a essetial Information...

madshi

28th July 2007, 09:55

ACrowley

28th July 2007, 10:30

Ok, it seems that Nero does do DialNorm in the TrueHD decoder. That explains nicely why Nero outputs a 16bit TrueHD track with full 24bit of information!

Two questions for Dolby experts:

(1) Can DialNorm be properly undone on the final WAV?

(2) Does the (E-)AC3 / TrueHD data contain information about whether (and how much) DialNorm shall be executed? If so, maybe we can manipulate the (E-)AC3 / TrueHD data before sending them to the decoder?

Mh, Im not sure.
But i think not after decoding to wave.
When the wave is compressed at lower Volume its bad. What will you do ?
The best is to avoid any DRC/DialogN...

But i think this is a good Conclusion :
Heres a Comparions with 300 HDDBD/Bluray (AC3,TrueHD,EAC3) Audio and it looks like :

1. "AC3" BluRay 640kbps untouched / to Compare it with : No DRC ,No DialogNorm
2. NERO "TrueHD" / applies DialogNorm, No DRC
3. NERO "EAC3" / applies DRC and DialogNormalization, even with changed Showtime Settings
4. SONICinemaster4.3 "EAC3" /looks like applies DRC and DialoN. + Gain
5. "AC3" Bluray 640kbps untouched / to compare it with : only DialogNorm.

http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/other/sshot-3_thumb.png
(http://nwgat.net/woot/files/57/other/sshot-3.png)

Conclusion is

NeroAudioDecoder2 :
- not good for EAC3 cause it applies full DRC and DIalogNormalization
- Better then nothing for TrueHD cause its "only" DialogNormalization
- I find no Way to change Nero Settings via Showtime or Registry to change it

SonicCinemasterAudioDecoder4.2
- not so low Volume as Nero, but looks like DRC and or DialogNormalization with "DolbyAuidoGain" buuhh
- TrueHD decoding still not work without Backroundnoise with 4.3
- cant see any Changes with different Settings in Sonic System Panel

About the AC3 to wave decoding :
-Azid/Foobar/NiscAudio can decode it fully without DRC/DialogN, so i use it to keep Full Dynamics
-Steinberg Nuendos cert. Dolby Decoder applies DRC and DialogN. No Way to change Dolby Decoder Options
-SoftEncode cert Dolby Decoder works very strange. Cant find any untouched Output.

So the Target is to find a Way to change Decoding Options for Nero and Sonic. to get EAC3 /TrueHD without DRC/DialogN.
And ofcourse hoping for a fast ffmpeg EAC3 Decoder/Ac3Filter Release

madshi

28th July 2007, 10:59

Conclusion is

NeroAudioDecoder2 :
- not good for EAC3 cause it applies full DRC and DIalogNormalization
- Better then nothing for TrueHD cause its "only" DialogNormalization
- I find no Way to change Nero Settings via Showtime or Registry to change it

SonicCinemasterAudioDecoder4.2
- not so low Volume as Nero, but looks like DRC and or DialogNormalization with "DolbyAuidoGain" buuhh
- TrueHD decoding still not work without Backroundnoise with 4.3
- cant see any Changes with different Settings in Sonic System Panel

About the AC3 to wave decoding :
-Azid/Foobar/NiscAudio can decode it fully without DRC/DialogN, so i use it to keep Full Dynamics
-Steinberg Nuendos cert. Dolby Decoder applies DRC and DialogN. No Way to change Dolby Decoder Options
-SoftEncode cert Dolby Decoder works very strange. Cant find any untouched Output.
Yes, I think you've nailed it. However, there's one more option: Namely playing AC3 and E-AC3 inside of ShowTime and capturing the output (possible with a little hacking). This should probably help getting rid of DRC for AC3 and E-AC3 with Nero. However, I don't know yet how to get rid of DialNorm.

-----

I'm still wondering whether DialNorm can't be undone afterwards. I mean it's "only" a volume change. Can't we turn up volume again in the PCM/WAV file to undo that change? I'm not sure how much harm would be done by this "volume down + volume up"?

ACrowley

28th July 2007, 12:11

Yes, I think you've nailed it. However, there's one more option: Namely playing AC3 and E-AC3 inside of ShowTime and capturing the output (possible with a little hacking). This should probably help getting rid of DRC for AC3 and E-AC3 with Nero. However, I don't know yet how to get rid of DialNorm.

-----
I'm still wondering whether DialNorm can't be undone afterwards. I mean it's "only" a volume change. Can't we turn up volume again in the PCM/WAV file to undo that change? I'm not sure how much harm would be done by this "volume down + volume up"?

yep....

However. AC3 decoding is not necesarry because azid/Foobar works optimal.
It was only own Target to clear it because i encode a lot of
AC3s.

Hmm...The DialogNormalization is not only a simple overall Levelchange ,isnt it ? Its a dynamic Thing too?
So a simple Volume + would not help..dont know

heres a good EAC3 Sample for Testing
http://rapidshare.com/files/45531448/300_EAC3_640kbps.rar.html

Can you try Showtime Output Setting "Passtrough" with your Tweak?
"Passes Audio to your Soundcard without further processing"

And
1. What is your Showtime Capture/Dump Tweak ?
2.in your other Test you use PowerDVD for decoding TruehD ? how ??

tebasuna51

28th July 2007, 13:21

Hmm...The DialogNormalization is not only a simple overall Levelchange ,isnt it ? Its a dynamic Thing too?
So a simple Volume + would not help..dont know

Apply the Dialog Normalization is always a fix attenuation for all the stream. Each ac3 frame (32 ms. for 48 KHz.) have a Dialog Normalization value but must be the same for all frames in the stream.

The DRC attenuation/gain value can vary for each block (5.33 ms., 6 blocks per frame).

A gain of (31 - DialogNorm) dB can restore the original volume and must be used to reencode to ac3 using the same DialogNorm and DRC settings.

madshi

28th July 2007, 13:27

Apply the Dialog Normalization is always a fix attenuation for all the stream. Each ac3 frame (32 ms. for 48 KHz.) have a Dialog Normalization value but must be the same for all frames in the stream.
Do you happen to know which bits in the AC3 header tell the decoder how much Dialog Normalization is needed? Do you think we can just modify those bits to get rid of DialNorm?

A gain of (31 - DialogNorm) dB can restore the original volume and must be used to reencode to ac3 using the same DialogNorm and DRC settings.
So DialNorm 31 means no change at all, right?

ACrowley

28th July 2007, 14:02

Do you happen to know which bits in the AC3 header tell the decoder how much Dialog Normalization is needed? Do you think we can just modify those bits to get rid of DialNorm?
So DialNorm 31 means no change at all, right?

@tebasuna51

When i "reencode" a AC3 this should be correct : (?)

1. AC3 to wave with AZID , no DRC/DialogN.
BeSweet.exe -core( -input "E:\test.ac3" -output "E:\test.wav" -6ch )

2. Reencode with Sony Vegas Prof Dolby Encoder v7 ( or a other cert. Dolby Encoder) and these Settings :
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=118759&highlight=Sony+Vegas

-31db DialogNormalization, no DynamicRangeComp ,no other Settings
It will guarantee you the volume level of the output AC3 will be the same as the original Wave?

So i dont have to care about Source AC3 Values because i get the Source Wave Levels.
Must be correct because i get the same Wavestructure and RMS Value as like as the AC3 Source (based on azid decoding)

The other,full Dolby Complaint, Method (when i want produce AC3) is to use a DRC Profile in Combi with a proper DialogNom. Value.
To get this correct DialogNormalization Value, i have to run a RMS Calculation and set it for the DialogN...right ?

tebasuna51

28th July 2007, 18:58

Do you happen to know which bits in the AC3 header tell the decoder how much Dialog Normalization is needed?
Bits 55-59 for 2/0 (stereo) ac3
Bits 57-61 for 3/2 (surround) ac3
Five bits make a value between 0 and 31
Do you think we can just modify those bits to get rid of DialNorm?
Yes, but you need recalculate also the CRC values (bytes 3-4 at the begin of the frame, I don't remember now if we need recalculate the ending CRC frame also) if you want the decoder accept the frame.
So DialNorm 31 means no change at all, right?
Ok, all these bits to 1.

Maybe you can read this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=964460#post964460) and related.

madshi

28th July 2007, 19:03

Bits 55-59 for 2/0 (stereo) ac3
Bits 57-61 for 3/2 (surround) ac3
Five bits make a value between 0 and 31

Yes, but you need recalculate also the CRC values (bytes 3-4 at the begin of the frame, I don't remember now if we need recalculate the ending CRC frame also) if you want the decoder accept the frame.

Ok, all these bits to 1.

Maybe you can read this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=964460#post964460) and related.
Thank you!! :)

How about mono AC3? And do you know the bits for E-AC3 and TrueHD, too?

tebasuna51

28th July 2007, 19:33

When i "reencode" a AC3 this should be correct : (?)

1. AC3 to wave with AZID , no DRC/DialogN.
BeSweet.exe -core( -input "E:\test.ac3" -output "E:\test.wav" -6ch )

Correct, now you have the full dynamic range of original source.

2. Reencode with Sony Vegas Prof Dolby Encoder v7 ( or a other cert. Dolby Encoder) and these Settings :
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=118759&highlight=Sony+Vegas

Like Skelsgard say in the post:
"This project will guarantee you the volume level of the output AC3 will be the same as the original WAV"

But is not Dolby compliant, with the settings DialNorm=31, DRC=None you obtain a kind of encode similar to ogg, mp3, ... without the 'advantages' of Dolby normalization (the dialogs must be at -31 dB, great dynamic range but low RMS ...).

The problem is listen an ac3 and after a CDA or mp3 with modern music (low dynamic range with high RMS). This is the origin of the 'low volume' problem of ac3 streams.

-31db DialogNormalization, no DynamicRangeComp ,no other Settings
It will guarantee you the volume level of the output AC3 will be the same as the original Wave?

There are decoders that can be instructed to ignore the BSI values but we can't do anything about that. For instance the Ac3Filter have a DRC function than ignore the values in the ac3 stream and analyze the signal to make a 'dynamic' DRC.

The other,full Dolby Complaint, Method (when i want produce AC3) is to use a DRC Profile in Combi with a proper DialogNom. Value.
To get this correct DialogNormalization Value, i have to run a RMS Calculation and set it for the DialogN...right ?
Ok. You can read the Sticky: GUIDE: How To Properly Encode Dolby Digital Audio (AC3) (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=56020)
and remember select only a fragment with representative dialog volume (maybe only in central channel) to get the rms value for DialNorm

tebasuna51

28th July 2007, 20:01

How about mono AC3?
For mono AC3 the DialNorm bits are 51-55
And do you know the bits for E-AC3 and TrueHD, too?
About E-AC3 you can read the Anex E of Digital Audio Compression Standard (AC-3, E-AC-3) Revision B (http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_52b.pdf) (still in my 'todo' list)

About TrueHD, I don't know documentation.

Edit: For E-AC3 DialNorm is always bits 46-50, don't have CRC at the beginning but yes at the end.

madshi

28th July 2007, 23:03

@tebasuna51, thanks very much again for the helpful information! Do you happen to have a link or maybe even some code about how to recalculate the (E-)AC3 CRC?

tebasuna51

29th July 2007, 01:43

@madshi
Sorry but today is my first approach to eac3.

honai

29th July 2007, 07:07

@madshi

Could you please update your first post with the findings concerning DRC/Dialog Normalization in Nero Audio Decoder? Thanks.

ACrowley

29th July 2007, 10:24

Correct, now you have the full dynamic range of original source.
Like Skelsgard say in the post:
"This project will guarantee you the volume level of the output AC3 will be the same as the original WAV"

But is not Dolby compliant, with the settings DialNorm=31, DRC=None you obtain a kind of encode similar to ogg, mp3, ... without the 'advantages' of Dolby normalization (the dialogs must be at -31 dB, great dynamic range but low RMS ...).

The problem is listen an ac3 and after a CDA or mp3 with modern music (low dynamic range with high RMS). This is the origin of the 'low volume' problem of ac3 streams.

There are decoders that can be instructed to ignore the BSI values but we can't do anything about that. For instance the Ac3Filter have a DRC function than ignore the values in the ac3 stream and analyze the signal to make a 'dynamic' DRC.

Ok. You can read the Sticky: GUIDE: How To Properly Encode Dolby Digital Audio (AC3) (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=56020)
and remember select only a fragment with representative dialog volume (maybe only in central channel) to get the rms value for DialNorm
yep.
I use AdobeAudition 2 for RMS calculation to get DialogNormalization Value .
I use Adobe Audition.

Wich Method would "you" pers recommend ?
- Measure RMS ,set it for DialogNormalization with DCR Profile "Film".
-Or all disabled , -31db always for DialogNorm

1 AC3/EAC3 to AC3 "re"encoding
2. TrueHD/LPCM/DTS encoding to AC3 ?

I mean most guys i know use -31db Dialog Norm with no DRC.
I think eac3to/aften use it too.
I can remember there where some heavy discussions in other Forums.
Ofcourse, as i say the -31db/no DRC Method isnt DolbyCompliant, but it will guarantee Source Wave Volume Level.

Comparison from Source/Dolby Conform/ -31db not Conform
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/6803/dolbykj2.th.png (http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dolbykj2.png)
they all have the same RMS Values and Wavestructure

I pers use -31db with no DRC when i reencode from AC3/EAC3.
When i compare the wave from Source AC3 with the reencode. it has the same RMS Values and Wavestructure
And i play AC3 on PC via AC3Filter (no DRC enabled) or SPDIF to my Surround Receiver/Speaker

For channel upmixes( more a "producing" as reencodig) RMS for DialogN+DRC
But i think maybe its better to encode Dolby Compliant from lossless HD Audio ?
So, what is your Advice ?

THX

tebasuna51

29th July 2007, 13:22

@ACrowley
There are 3 options:

1) Encode to ac3 with DialNorm 31, DRC None.
Recommended for users with good audio equipment and without problems with childs or neighbors.

2) Encode with the proper DialNorm and DRC.
Recommended for users with control over the decoder (PC, good receivers).

3) Apply the DRC, Maximize (Peak method) and encode to ac3 with DialNorm 31, DRC None.
Users with low cost audio equipments and with the "low volume ac3 problem"

Obviously the second method is more flexible but...

- The Dialog Normalization concept from Dolby is useless if you listen TV audio, CDA, mp3 with the same equipment. Actually the -31 dB ac3 volume is far off the typical volume of others sources.

- The Dynamic Range Compression concept is very interesting with sources with wide dynamic range, is useless for modern music with high volume but short dynamic range.

- If the encoder to use is Aften, remember: the actual DRC routines are in beta stage with differences (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=893111#post893111) with the behavior of commercial encoders.

ACrowley

29th July 2007, 13:41

Thank you

- No, i encode not with Aften, i use SonyVegas Dolby Digital Pro Encoder v7 or STeinberg Nuendos DD encoder.
Both are certified Dolby Encoder

The most AC3 Tracks i use are from movies has a wide Dynamic (HDDVD,Bluray)
Currently and in the Past i use Method 1.

Actually the -31 dB ac3 volume is far off the typical volume of others sources.

When i compare the Source (always azid decoded no DRC;DialogN) its looks exactly as like as encodes from both Methods and with the same RMS Values
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/6803/dolbykj2.th.png (http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dolbykj2.png)

So far i can say , for my Receiver via SPDIF ( AC3Filter)

Source :sounds great, high Dynamics, big Differences between DRC Modes
Method 1 :sounds as good as the Source with DRC off. No big Differences between DRC Modes, a bit louder as the Source
Method 2 :sounds by far lower Volume with or without DRC, mmmhhh
-On PC via AC3Filter i cant hear any real differences

One last Question : Can Method 1 cause clipping ?
THX for all your help!

madshi

29th July 2007, 20:17

InorganicMatter

29th July 2007, 20:46

SWEET!!

I think I shall reconvert the audio of the HDDVD I just finished converting to 720p AVC.

honai

29th July 2007, 23:34

Wow, that's amazing! Thank you so much!

Rectal Prolapse

30th July 2007, 05:39

Nice work madshi and the rest of you!

ACrowley

30th July 2007, 08:03

Good news!!

http://madshi.net/eac3to.zip

The latest eac3to version 1.10 now detects if E-AC3 tracks have Dialog Normalization activated (most tracks have) and removes it automatically! As a result by using eac3to Dialog Normalization with E-AC3 decoding is no longer a problem. (Thanks to tebasuna51 for the helpful tips!)

Furthermore I've found a way to talk the Nero E-AC3 decoder into not applying DRC, even though we're using it outside of ShowTime. That means: With the help of the Nero decoder we now have near perfect E-AC3 decoding. Enjoy!!

Finally, the Surcode automation was slightly improved. It now outputs some more messages. If it still fails for some people, please post the full eac3to output here. Thanks.

Because of the latest information about DRC and Dialog Normalization and the latest improvements in eac3to for the Nero decoder, I've now made Nero the default E-AC3 and TrueHD decoder. So the flag "/nero" is no more. There is a flag "/sonic" now to force the use of the Sonic filters. I do not recommend the Sonic filters, though, cause they still apply DRC and I don't know how to disable that.

@ACrowley, I hope you'll find some time to test the new version to make sure that E-AC3 decoding is really without faults now. Thanks!

Test Sample EAC3 640kbps 5.1 (300HDDVD)
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4598/sshot3he5.th.png (http://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sshot3he5.png)

you can see ec3to 1.10 works now without DRC AND without DialogNorm (for EAC3). TrueHD is still with DialogNorm.
Madshi....nice work!:thanks:

SO the new Conclusion is :

TrueHD ,always, with NeroDecoder : DRC OFF ,Dialog ON
EAC3 "only" via "eac3to" with NeroDecoder : DRC OFF DialogN OFF

Later Today when im have Time i will show you that the Dynamics are as like as the AC3 640kbps from BluRay ! Nice

madshi

30th July 2007, 08:25

Test Sample EAC3 640kbps 5.1 (300HDDVD)
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4598/sshot3he5.th.png (http://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sshot3he5.png)

you can see ec3to 1.10 works now without DRC AND without DialogNorm (for EAC3).
Thanks for confirming!

ACrowley

30th July 2007, 08:51

Heres a Comparison from AC3 640kbps Bluray and decoded EAC3 640kbps HDDVD (Nero eac3to 1.10) from 300

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8132/sshot3ih8.th.png (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sshot3ih8.png)

Its obvious.
Thew 1.10 Version works perfect . No DRC ,No DialogNorm. anymore with NeroAudioDecoder

honai

30th July 2007, 09:15

Excellent!

I have observed an interesting effect.

I just encoded the English DD+ track from Batman Begins to DTS (w/ Surcode) and muxed the track alongside the DD track from the R1 DVD. With the DTS track dialog is considerably "louder" than the DD version. I route audio to my receiver over SPDIF (bit-perfect), and the receiver displays "DIAL. NORM +4" for the DTS track (Pioneer 1014). So it seems that DD+ -> DTS yields dialog loudness that is stronger than the "reference" from the DVD. Not that it sounds unpleasant. I'm just wondering if we aren't running into unintended consequences by ignoring the Dialog Normalization in the source DD+ track ...

madshi

30th July 2007, 09:40

I just encoded the English DD+ track from Batman Begins to DTS (w/ Surcode) and muxed the track alongside the DD track from the R1 DVD. With the DTS track dialog is considerably "louder" than the DD version. I route audio to my receiver over SPDIF (bit-perfect), and the receiver displays "DIAL. NORM +4" for the DTS track (Pioneer 1014). So it seems that DD+ -> DTS yields dialog loudness that is stronger than the "reference" from the DVD. Not that it sounds unpleasant. I'm just wondering if we aren't running into unintended consequences by ignoring the Dialog Normalization in the source DD+ track ...
As far as I understand it, the DD+ dialnorm stuff changes the volume of the whole track (all 6 channels). It doesn't just change the center channel. So I don't think that ignoring the DD+ dialnorm should have any specific effect on the center channel. But that's just AFAIK. Are you sure that it's not the whole track which is louder? That could be easily explained, because the original DD track will have dialnorm in it, but DTS has not. The the original DD track volume will be lowered by your receiver, while the DTS track should not be lowered. Maybe the receiver even raises volume for DTS tracks. That would result in even more loudness. But all this should affect all channels and not just the dialog (center).

honai

30th July 2007, 09:59

You're right, picked a few more listening spots, all channels are louder. The receiver doesn't do anything other than adhere to the standard. Maybe Surcode embeds some additional data?

In comparison I can say that the transcoded DTS is indeed louder than reference DTS tracks from retail DVDs.

EDIT:

On my receiver DTS tracks are typically less loud than DD tracks from the same DVD. I suspect that's because due to the algorithmic nature of DTS vs DD the DTS version allows for a greater dynamic range and thus needs more headroom, resulting in an overall lower volume. However, with Batman Begins the transcoded DTS is much louder than the original DD track.

Maybe the receiver even raises volume for DTS tracks.

Yes, that's what seems to be happening as indicated by the "+4" in "DIAL. NORM +4". For DD tracks the receiver doesn't indicate any volume adjustment.

madshi

30th July 2007, 10:08

So, should I add a switch to allow dialnorm to happen instead of always defeating it? Probably it makes sense to defeat dialnorm if you reencode in AC3, because then you can tell the AC3 encoder to reuse the original dialnorm value (eac3to 1.10 output the original dialnorm value for your information). But maybe when reencoding to DTS it would be better to let dialnorm happen during decoding? However, I think when decoding 16bit TrueHD tracks it would be better to defeat dialnorm to make lossless reencoding easier without quality loss and with small file sizes.

honai

30th July 2007, 10:11

ACrowley

30th July 2007, 12:31

I havent any Problems with reencoded AC3 when the DialogNorm was ignored through Source decoding

Always reencoded with -31db ,no DRC Profile

Should be no Problem

madshi

30th July 2007, 12:37

Here's a thread about DialNorm which I find worth reading:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?t=230926

tebasuna51

30th July 2007, 15:23

Yes, make it an option, that'd be perfect!

EDIT:

Hm, come to think of it - maybe there is indeed something in the DTS header (from the Surcode encoder) that tells the DTS encoder in the receiver if Dialog Normalization should be applied. Perhaps we should ask someone who's familiar with the DTS standard. Using Google I found conflicting information, i.e. that DTS has/has no facilities for Dial. Norm. information in the stream.

EDIT2:

http://www.laaudiofile.com/images/dtsencoder.jpg

Seems to follow the DD standard of 27..31dB Dialog Normalization. Surcode doesn't expose that parameter, but the resulting DTS stream should definitely receive the Dial. Norm. value obtained from the original EAC3 stream.

Of course DTS format have also a DialNorm field in the header (also have DRC support) but the solution isn't suply the original attenuated to the DTS encoder, the original must be at full dynamic and you can set the DialNorm in your DTS encoder if you want.

@madshi
Instead a option to apply or not the patch to override the DialNorm attenuation I think honai need a way to pass the original ac3 DialNorm value to the DTS encoder like parameter.

madshi

30th July 2007, 15:33

@madshi
Instead a option to apply or not the patch to override the DialNorm attenuation I think honai need a way to pass the original ac3 DialNorm value to the DTS encoder like parameter.
Unfortunately the Surcode DTS encoder doesn't seem to have an option to specify the DialNorm value.

Maybe I should manipulate the final DTS file to fill in the right DialNorm value? :)

ACrowley

30th July 2007, 17:07

Unfortunately the Surcode DTS encoder doesn't seem to have an option to specify the DialNorm value.

Maybe I should manipulate the final DTS file to fill in the right DialNorm value? :)

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Minnetonka Audio Software\Surcode DTS\OPTIONS

Theres Value for DialogNorm and DRC

Looks like default applies DialogN, maybe you should leave its on default...i never had Problems with Surcode encoded dts and DialogNorm and Dynamic Compress etc. Not with full Dynamic Sources and not with pre Dynam. compressed Sources

.mhh

@honai
I think DTS should sound louder as like as DD on most Receivers..not lower Volume.
On my Pioneer dts is always louder

hristoff2

30th July 2007, 17:09

Thanks once again, awesome. :)

Source: Shooter eac3 5.1 (1536kbps), English

top: eac3to 1.9 / Nero / Center CH
bottom: eac3to 1.10 / Nero / Center CH

http://www.imagebanana.com/img/ajezqffy/thumb/drc_no_drc_comp.png (http://www.imagebanana.com/view/ajezqffy/drc_no_drc_comp.png)

madshi

30th July 2007, 17:20

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Minnetonka Audio Software\Surcode DTS\OPTIONS

Theres Value for DialogNorm and DRC
I don't have these values there? How are they named exactly? Thanks...

Looks like default applies DialogN, maybe you should leave its on default...
I agree with tebasuna51 that I should forward the original E-AC3's DialNorm value to the DTS encoder. That makes more sense to me than letting the encoder use a default DialNorm value.

Why are you saying "applies"? There's nothing about DialNorm that the encoder "applies". The encoder does not do any DialNorm processing. All it does is writing a specific DialNorm number to the header of every encoded frame. DialNorm is "applied" by the decoder, not by the encoder!

ACrowley

30th July 2007, 17:32

I don't have these values there? How are they named exactly? Thanks...

I agree with tebasuna51 that I should forward the original E-AC3's DialNorm value to the DTS encoder. That makes more sense to me than letting the encoder use a default DialNorm value.

Why are you saying "applies"? There's nothing about DialNorm that the encoder "applies". The encoder does not do any DialNorm processing. All it does is writing a specific DialNorm number to the header of every encoded frame. DialNorm is "applied" by the decoder, not by the encoder!

Thats what i mean.. i told you my English is bad. I should better say the encoder applies the DialogNorm Info into the encode..better ?:)

Do you know how a DTS encoder handles Dialog Norm value ?
I dont if the dts encoder handles the encoding/decoding off DialogN as like as AC3,when -27db is in EAC3/AC3 if -27db is correct for a reencoded dts too? I really dont know the DTS tech Specs

But when you plan to set the DialogNorm from EAC3 into dts,it should be done for a TrueHD Source DialogNorm too ?
Mhhh i never thought about..all my dts reencodes are at default without any special DialogNorm Setting because theres simply no Option in Surcode/Nuendo

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Minnetonka Audio Software\Surcode DTS\OPTIONS
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4904/sshot3ge8.th.png (http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sshot3ge8.png)

madshi

30th July 2007, 17:43

Ok...Do you knw how a "Studio" DTS encoder handles Dialog Norm value ? Surcode is a certified DTS Encoder too..however, but more semi Pro
Maybe the Manual from DTS (HD) Master Suite shows how to do. I dont if the dts encoder handles the encoding/decoding with DialogN s like as AC3,when -27db is in EAC3 if -27db in dts is correct too? I really dont know
I don't know, either, but I would guess so... :)

P.S: You can test it out. Just set different DialNorm values in the Surcode registry keys. Then test encode in DTS. Then decode again and check the WAV.

But when you plan to set the DialogNorm from EAC3 ,it should be done for a TrueHD Source DialogNorm too ?
For TrueHD sources I would set DialNorm to -31dB in the DTS encoder because we currently can't turn DialNorm off during decoding.

So, how is the exact names of these registry values? :)