Whats the diference between these sample sounds?

[Malick]

http://viik.credo.ee/allar/Samples.rar - in this link there is rar file that contains two small mkv audio samples. Sample1.mkv and Sample2.mkv taken from HD DVDrip

They are both with AC3 5.1 sound. But for some reason Sample2.mkv has much much lower sound volume than sample1.mkv, alltough they should be at the same volume cause they both are AC3 5.1 sound with the same bitrate. Both of them use the same audio and video codecs i think (i looked it up when i open the media and see properties). I just dont understand. Even DVDrip with AC3 5.1 has much louder volume (like sample1.mkv) than sample2.mkv

I even have DVDrip AC3 and HD DVDrip AC3 of the same movie. Still DVDrip AC3 has 3 times louder volume than HD DVDrip. Can someone tell me thats the diference between sample1 and sample2? I really like that sample2 has the same sound volume level than sample1

[tebasuna51]

They are both with AC3 5.1 sound. But for some reason Sample2.mkv has much much lower sound volume than sample1.mkv, alltough they should be at the same volume cause they both are AC3 5.1 sound with the same bitrate.
Bitrate and volume aren't related.
Can someone tell me thats the diference between sample1 and sample2? I really like that sample2 has the same sound volume level than sample1
Differences in headers

File to analyze: G:\temp\Sample1.ac3
SampleRate 0 : 48000 KHz.
BitRate 15 : 448 Kb/s.
Version (bsid) 8 : Standard.
Bit Stream mode (bsmod) 0 : main audio service: complete main (CM)
Audio coding mode (acmod) 7 : 3/2 - L, C, R, SL, SR
Center Mix Level 0 : 0.707 (-3.0 dB)
Surround Mix Level 0 : 0.707 (-3 dB)
Low frequency effects channel 1 : Present
Dialogue normalization - 27 dB
RF atenuattion 1,02 dB Frame: 1
Languaje 0 : Not present
Audio Production Mixlevel 105 dB SPL
Audio Production Room type 1 : large room, X curve monitor
CopyRight bit 1
Original bit 1
Timecode1 0 : Not present
Timecode2 0 : Not present
Additional Bsi 0 : Not present
Block switch flags 0
Dither flags 31
Dynamic Range gain 0,77 dB Frame: 1
----------------------------------------------------------
File length : 1725696 bytes.
Valid Frames : 963
Duration : 30,816 seconds. ( 0 h. 0 m. 30,816 s.)
RF Ov. Pr. min/max : -13,52 / 3,87 dB
Dyn. Range min/max : -13,05 / 3,87 dB
----------------------------------------------------------
==========================================================
File to analyze: G:\temp\Sample2.ac3
SampleRate 0 : 48000 KHz.
BitRate 15 : 448 Kb/s.
Version (bsid) 8 : Standard.
Bit Stream mode (bsmod) 0 : main audio service: complete main (CM)
Audio coding mode (acmod) 7 : 3/2 - L, C, R, SL, SR
Center Mix Level 0 : 0.707 (-3.0 dB)
Surround Mix Level 0 : 0.707 (-3 dB)
Low frequency effects channel 1 : Present
Dialogue normalization - 31 dB
RF atenuattion 0 : Not present
Languaje 0 : Not present
Audio Production Info 0 : Not present
CopyRight bit 0
Original bit 1
Timecode1 0 : Not present
Timecode2 0 : Not present
Additional Bsi 0 : Not present
Block switch flags 0
Dither flags 31
Dynamic Range Info 0 : Not present
----------------------------------------------------------
File length : 2078720 bytes.
Valid Frames : 1160
Duration : 37,12 seconds. ( 0 h. 0 m. 37,12 s.)
----------------------------------------------------------
Sample 1 with Dialog Norm. -27 dB with Dynamic Range Info.
Sample 2 with Dialog Norm. -31 dB without Dynamic Range Info.

Differences in volume:
Sample 1

[Ch 0] Maximum: 1.76dB. Average:-26.30dB. RMS:-21.32dB. ReplayGain:-0.84dB
[Ch 1] Maximum: 0.19dB. Average:-26.58dB. RMS:-21.12dB. ReplayGain:-1.24dB
[Ch 2] Maximum: 2.98dB. Average:-25.53dB. RMS:-19.86dB. ReplayGain:-2.24dB
[Ch 3] Maximum:-30.15dB. Average:-54.66dB. RMS:-48.68dB. ReplayGain:47.58dB
[Ch 4] Maximum:-16.37dB. Average:-42.20dB. RMS:-38.88dB. ReplayGain:15.85dB
[Ch 5] Maximum:-15.56dB. Average:-42.67dB. RMS:-38.59dB. ReplayGain:14.89dB

[All channels] Maximum:2.98dB. Average:-31.20dB. RMS:-23.68dB

Sample 2

[Ch 0] Maximum:-14.10dB. Average:-47.63dB. RMS:-43.70dB. ReplayGain:20.08dB
[Ch 1] Maximum:-24.04dB. Average:-47.46dB. RMS:-43.80dB. ReplayGain:20.84dB
[Ch 2] Maximum:-12.30dB. Average:-43.73dB. RMS:-37.00dB. ReplayGain:11.71dB
[Ch 3] Maximum:-46.87dB. Average:-66.56dB. RMS:-63.24dB. ReplayGain:48.29dB
[Ch 4] Maximum:-33.71dB. Average:-56.70dB. RMS:-53.29dB. ReplayGain:29.90dB
[Ch 5] Maximum:-33.95dB. Average:-54.92dB. RMS:-51.56dB. ReplayGain:29.35dB

[All channels] Maximum:-12.30dB. Average:-50.16dB. RMS:-43.07dB

Sample 1 is 20 dB over sample 1, of course is more loud.

When see the source the sample 1 have sounds clipped because a excessive gain applied before. The sample 2 can be amplified 12 dB without clipping.

[Malick]

Hmm i see. Darn. I have this problem with many HD DVDrips. Some are loud, some are not. Is there a way to convert/encode HD DVDrip.MKV (Sample2) = HD DVDrip.MKV (Sample1)? I want the sound volume to be the same with all HD DVDrip movies. Why is it that 2GB HD DVDrip has 3x louder sound than 4,4GB HD DVDrip? It should be the other way around, thats not logic. Anyway...what can i do to make sample2 as loud as sample1?

[FlimsyFeet]

If the dialogue normalization was anthing other than -31dB, you could use Vobdnorm to change it. But as it is already at -31, you need to decode to WAV, normalize, then encode back to AC3. BeSweet can do it all in one step I think.

tebasuna51, what program do you use to get that infor out of the AC3 headers?

[Malick]

To me BeSweet is the moust complicated program. I have tried to convert DTS to AC3 with besweet but can not do it, i dont know how.

[tebasuna51]

@Malick
loud is not better quality, your sample 1 is more loud but is distorted.

You can use BeLight, BeHappy, Foobar, ... to re-encode ac3 (always lose quality when re-encode) if is problematic for you turn up the volume.

Of course is more easy convert ac3 with BeSweet (have the azid decoder) than DTS because BeSweet can't read DTS.

@FlimsyFeet
I use a little utility to read headers made by myself.

[Malick]

Is is possbible to use Graphedit to edit the sound of sample2 to sample1 sound?

[tebasuna51]

You can do a limited edition with DS filters like ffdshow or Ac3Filter.

[Malick]

How can i do that. I dont know how to set ffdhow in graph edit so that output file would be like sample1. Please help

[Terranigma]

I use a little utility to read headers made by myself.
Mind sharing this program of yours? :scared:

[tebasuna51]

Mind sharing this program of yours?

Not problem for share, but I can't support or explain it (I'm not proud about the implementation, but work for me). Here is (http://www.mytempdir.com/1312493).

[tebasuna51]

How can i do that. I dont know how to set ffdhow in graph edit so that output file would be like sample1. Please help
GraphEdit and ffdshow is not the better way, don't make 2 pass and the ac3 encoder is not so good than Aften.

Also I don't recommend amplify so much like in your sample1.

Download and istall
BeLight-0.22_RC1.exe (http://kurtnoise.free.fr/index.php?dir=BeLight/)
Put Aften.exe (http://win32builds.sourceforge.net/aften/index.html) in BeLight/BeSweet folder and run BeLight.

- File -> Add files... 'your.ac3'
- Select in AC3 Tab: 5.1, Aften, Bitrate 448
- All unchecked at left column
- Click in Advanced Settings and:
- All unchecked but 'Normalize' to 100% and Output Log file. Ok
- 'Start Processing'

Good luck.

[Malick]

I did exaly what u saidl. The convertion works but the result is not what i hoped - the sound volume is still the same, very low.

I did two tests

1. Sample2 (low volume) - i converted is to ac3 like u said. The sound volume remains the same, low

2 Sample1 (loud volume) - i converted it to ac3 the same way, just to see if the sound volume remains the same. It did not, went to low like sample2

So there must me something elese i have to do with advenced setteings. Please help...

[tebasuna51]

1. Sample2 (low volume) - i converted is to ac3 like u said. The sound volume remains the same, low
Converting the Sample2 I obtain:
Analyzed 100%. Sample2 modified

[Ch 0] Maximum: -1.85dB. Average:-35.27dB. RMS:-31.34dB. ReplayGain:7.98dB
[Ch 1] Maximum:-11.88dB. Average:-35.11dB. RMS:-31.45dB. ReplayGain:8.38dB
[Ch 2] Maximum: 0.06dB. Average:-31.39dB. RMS:-24.66dB. ReplayGain:-0.63dB
[Ch 3] Maximum:-34.16dB. Average:-54.08dB. RMS:-50.78dB. ReplayGain:35.72dB
[Ch 4] Maximum:-21.43dB. Average:-44.30dB. RMS:-40.90dB. ReplayGain:17.45dB
[Ch 5] Maximum:-21.57dB. Average:-42.52dB. RMS:-39.15dB. ReplayGain:17.16dB

[All channels] Maximum:0.06dB. Average:-37.80dB. RMS:-30.72dB
Before the conversion: RMS:-43.07dB
After: RMS:-30.72dB
Gain: 12.35 dB
Now Sample2 is only 7 dB low than Sample1.
Maybe the Sample2 is a fragment with low volume than the rest (and can't amplify 12 dB without distorting other fragment).

2 Sample1 (loud volume) - i converted it to ac3 the same way, just to see if the sound volume remains the same. It did not, went to low like sample2
Converting the Sample1 I obtain:
Analyzed 100%. Sample1 modified

[Ch 0] Maximum: 1.17dB. Average:-26.52dB. RMS:-21.47dB. ReplayGain:-0.74dB
[Ch 1] Maximum: 0.84dB. Average:-26.81dB. RMS:-21.27dB. ReplayGain:-1.48dB
[Ch 2] Maximum: 1.21dB. Average:-25.71dB. RMS:-20.00dB. ReplayGain:-2.14dB
[Ch 3] Maximum:-29.59dB. Average:-54.83dB. RMS:-48.84dB. ReplayGain:47.35dB
[Ch 4] Maximum:-16.35dB. Average:-42.34dB. RMS:-38.98dB. ReplayGain:16.08dB
[Ch 5] Maximum:-15.96dB. Average:-42.81dB. RMS:-38.71dB. ReplayGain:15.04dB

[All channels] Maximum:1.21dB. Average:-31.41dB. RMS:-23.82dB
Before the conversion: RMS:-23.68dB
After: RMS:-23.82dB
Gain: -0.14 dB

Same volume than before (-0.14 dB).
BTW, is not possible a low volume with the settings I put. The Azid Settings -> Dynamic Compression must be unchecked.

[delacroixp]

Most DVD's support 16-bit (0-120 dB) dynamic range ... which determines the distance between the softest and loudest passages...

Elevator or background music may only have a volume range of 64 dB, where most of the sound is equally loud/soft.
In movies, most of the movie might have people speaking softly... untill 'the shuttle takes off' or 'a bomb explodes'...
You can't expect all movies to be equally loud... some might be mostly soft (drama)... or mostly loud (action)...
You want the maximum gain... without clipping (distortion) throughout the whole movie...

Running your AC3/VOB (not DTS) through BeSweet (BeLight GUI) will tell you the maximum gain possible... exceeding max gain boost is very poor audio encoding practice...


:):D:eek:
Pascal


*** NOTE ***
Theoretically, you could use 8-bit Depth of dynamic range... which would result in an overall volume increase since the softer sequences would now be louder... and closer the volume peaks of the entire movie...
I should add that 24-bit dynamic range (0-143 dB) is used for theatrical performances, to add contrast-effect... dynamic range in audio is like the contrast control in video...

[Terranigma]

Not problem for share, but I can't support or explain it (I'm not proud about the implementation, but work for me). Here is (http://www.mytempdir.com/1312493).

Thanks for the program. You explained it good enough for me.
I created a free homepage and mirrored it from the wesbite. It can be downloaded from Here (http://downloads.freehomepages.com/homepagez.php?file=/terranigma/Doom9Stuff/LeeAudBi.zip)

[eb]

Malick,

I didn't study all above posts.
My practical solution for your problems is as follows.
Use Vlc player to convert to .wav. I used 512kb/s rate.
Then use graphedit as http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=996117#post996117

REsults for ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl:eb@www.eb.enterpol.pl/sample1.ac3

ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl:eb@www.eb.enterpol.pl/sample2.ac3

EDIT: Sorry it is not working the expected way.

EDIT 2: Using some dirty solutions it is possible to "improve" this sample2 .

saample2 (ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl:eb@www.eb.enterpol.pl/saampl2.ac3)

[tebasuna51]

@eb
Like I say in precedent post, graphedit with ffdshow or AC3filter can do the job but is not the better method. Analyzing your samples:
Analyzed 100%. Sample1 eb

[Ch 0] Maximum: -4.09dB. Average:-27.94dB. RMS:-24.00dB. ReplayGain: 2.92dB
[Ch 1] Maximum: -4.52dB. Average:-28.68dB. RMS:-24.22dB. ReplayGain: 2.79dB
[Ch 2] Maximum: -3.98dB. Average:-26.53dB. RMS:-22.53dB. ReplayGain: 1.03dB
[Ch 3] Maximum: -9.09dB. Average:-31.68dB. RMS:-27.48dB. ReplayGain:13.58dB
[Ch 4] Maximum:-19.25dB. Average:-41.39dB. RMS:-38.80dB. ReplayGain:18.70dB
[Ch 5] Maximum:-17.89dB. Average:-42.77dB. RMS:-40.03dB. ReplayGain:18.79dB

[All channels] Maximum:-3.98dB. Average:-31.17dB. RMS:-25.91dB

Analyzed 100%. Sample2 eb

[Ch 0] Maximum: -6.27dB. Average:-39.69dB. RMS:-35.75dB. ReplayGain:12.16dB
[Ch 1] Maximum:-16.12dB. Average:-39.52dB. RMS:-35.85dB. ReplayGain:12.76dB
[Ch 2] Maximum: -5.74dB. Average:-35.93dB. RMS:-29.21dB. ReplayGain: 3.87dB
[Ch 3] Maximum:-21.56dB. Average:-47.82dB. RMS:-42.65dB. ReplayGain:21.17dB
[Ch 4] Maximum:-25.91dB. Average:-48.92dB. RMS:-45.51dB. ReplayGain:22.14dB
[Ch 5] Maximum:-26.15dB. Average:-47.14dB. RMS:-43.77dB. ReplayGain:21.77dB

[All channels] Maximum:-5.74dB. Average:-41.77dB. RMS:-35.11dB

Analyzed 100%. Saample2 eb

[Ch 0] Maximum: -3.79dB. Average:-26.77dB. RMS:-23.00dB. ReplayGain:-1.81dB
[Ch 1] Maximum: -4.14dB. Average:-24.67dB. RMS:-21.38dB. ReplayGain:-2.23dB
[Ch 2] Maximum: -3.37dB. Average:-25.83dB. RMS:-21.33dB. ReplayGain:-4.56dB
[Ch 3] Maximum:-16.17dB. Average:-39.01dB. RMS:-35.47dB. ReplayGain:15.44dB
[Ch 4] Maximum: -4.68dB. Average:-29.46dB. RMS:-26.14dB. ReplayGain: 3.41dB
[Ch 5] Maximum: -4.91dB. Average:-29.46dB. RMS:-26.14dB. ReplayGain: 3.42dB

[All channels] Maximum:-3.37dB. Average:-28.18dB. RMS:-23.84dB
- Sample1 (Maximum:-3.98dB. RMS:-25.91dB) is low than original (Maximum:2.98dB. RMS:-23.68dB)

- First Sample2 (Maximum:-5.74dB. RMS:-35.11dB) is low than BeLight-Aften method (Maximum:0.06dB. RMS:-30.72dB)

- Second Saample2 (Maximum:-3.37dB. RMS:-23.84dB). If the Maximum is lower and RMS is greater only can be obtained compressing the Dynamic Range by any external function (remember sample2 don't have Dynamic Range Info).

- Maximums below 0dB is a evidence of the inappropriate method.

[Malick]

still sample2 i low. I just need somehow to convert it to regular AC3 5.1 that all regulad DVD-s have. HD DVD-s must have some diferent AC3 sounds

[eb]

Sorry, in general for audio I am using my ears not math formulas.