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View Full Version : NEW PROJECT: Star Wars Trilogy The Definitive Collection Laserdisc To DVD Project


swdefdvd
31st December 2001, 03:08
Help needed. Go here for more information.

http://www.geocities.com/swdefdvd/

Any help welcomed.

gooki
2nd January 2002, 07:46
Hi, good to see someone else is ripping the starwars collection. There have been several people to release this collection already on divx but a dvd would definetly be nice.

However if you go ahead with the project i recomend you look into transfering the LD video data digitall to you pc rather than though an analouge capture device. I've only ever seen this happen once and that was when 'funny' (taiwan dvd ripper) released thunderbolt (jackie chan movie) on dvd. When you watched it, it was obvious that the video had been digitall sourced - how he/she/they did that is beyond me. But sice LD's have the same optical technology as cd's it should be possible to make a big cd-rom drive capable copying the laserdisc mpeg1 file to you hdd for re-encoding.

If you can figure out how to connect a LD player up to a pc digitally let me know as this is one thign i've always wanted to do.

Peter von Frosta
2nd January 2002, 13:51
I'm very confused, how do you want to make a digital copy from an analog laserdisc?

swdefdvd
2nd January 2002, 17:35
You are correct. Laserdisc video is analogue. The audio is digital. I'm capturing the video through a Dazzle Hollywood DV Bridge using the Microsoft NTSC video codec.

Keep checking the site for an update on this.

gooki
2nd January 2002, 19:32
From my understanding Laser Discs contain ultra high bitrate Mpeg 1 video files hence digital. If someone can prove otherwise i willl gladly concede.

I'd propose to make a digital copy by replacing certain components within a laser disc with those of a pc-cdrom so it can be read through ide/scsi interface. This should work sice a LD is the same make up as a cd-rom only larger.

Alternatively there must be existing laserdisc players for PC's but they're probably hidden away at movie studios or deep within thailand, and near impossible to get a hold of.

The reason to keep everything digital is because you definetly loose quality when converting digital - analouge - digital. Also the audio should turn out slightly crisper as well. ***EDIT*** Ignore that comment if you are already capturing audio through spdif.

swdefdvd
2nd January 2002, 20:35
Video material on a laserdisc is usually digitally remastered but when it is placed on a disc it is analogue.

gooki
2nd January 2002, 21:20
Then why do laser disc players have mpeg1 decoder chips built into them? And how can you have chapters on a laserdisc and but not have a digital video source?

***EDIT*** Typo

Just to clear thign up - the two of you agree that DVD video is stored digitally right?

***EDIT*** Lol looks like i fucked up - probably should have done some more reading before i open my mouth. Will post a pic later of a laserdisc 2 dvd conversion, just so you know how high the quality can get if done right.

Antti
2nd January 2002, 22:29
Video on laserdisc is stored in analog form, using frequency modulation. The technology is from 1970's, there were no mpeg or any digital video then (in regular use).

swdefdvd
2nd January 2002, 22:38
I look forward to seeing the picture and any information on how to do it right. Cheers! :)

yorkie984
2nd January 2002, 22:51
I still have some of the promotional material circa 1980 advertising and explaining Laser Disc.
According to this material, the picture is stored in an analogue format but by no method as advanded as Frequency Modulation.
This literature claims (and gives diagrams) that each frame of the movie is in fact stored as a tiny image in the pits of the disc which has a laser shone through it and it is magnified onto a camera inside the player. This seems somewhat bizzare but is how Philips claimed it was done around 1980.
The audio was of course stored digitally using the same system which was later used for Compact Disc.
With this in mind, surely the purest way to capture the image from a Laserdisc would be to capture the signal from the camera inside the player and digitise it straight from there...

pi314
3rd January 2002, 00:03
yorkie,
Can you scan in the promotional material and make it available. I would like to see what it says. It seems kind of odd.

pi

pi314
3rd January 2002, 00:16
http://www.laserdiscarchive.co.uk/laserdisc_archive/how_laserdiscs_are_produced.htm

yorkie984
3rd January 2002, 00:47
I Don't have a scanner i'm afraid. It's possible that this may be inaccurate informartion as around 1980 I don't think the concepts used for Laserdisc were something that the general public could have really got their heads around. This may have been simplified (dumbed down) for public comnsumption.
The best I can do is describe the drawings on the leaflet..

It shows a picture of a Laserdisc and a small portion is circled and enlarged (supposedly) to show what happens. It shows several tiny images on the disc. A sepaerate diagram shows one of these images on the disc having a laser fired through it and being magnified up against (what i assume to be) a small tube camera.
As i said, this seems strange as what happened if the unit became jolted and the beam no longer aimed correctly?
Would it have been possible to have got a camera of adequate quality inside a unit this size with late 1970's technology? I doubt it...
I pesonally think the FM method is more feasible as I can actually figure out ways in which this could have been done and given excellent quality (remembering that HI-FI sound on video tapes is analogue FM). It's almost like the FM signal on the disc is simply an analogue waveform similar to the groove on a vinyl record.
Also worth remembering that early TV recordings were made on records. http://www.dfm.dircon.co.uk/ So the idea of analogue recording on a disc is by no means a new idea.

Kedirekin
3rd January 2002, 04:31
I think the brochures must be *very* dumbed down. Remember that a laserdisc is two sided. The laser doesn't shine 'through' the disc, and if it did, it'd pick up two 'pictures'.

I'm virtually certain that a laserdisc basically contains the original broadcast FM modulation encoded as pits of varying length on the disc (as hinted at in the 'producing a laserdisc' article - too bad there isn't a 'how playback works' article). The vertical ramp signal might be removed on the disc and added back by the player, but the concept of directly recording the modulation of the FM signal is the same, and much more in keeping with the capabilites of 70's technology. The laser pickup just has to be a very fast intensity sensor.

Antti
3rd January 2002, 20:02
Analog television broadcasting is usually AM, this applies to both PAL & NTSC. In SECAM color subcarriers are frequency modulated.

For Laserdisc technology FM is natural, because the pits on a disc contain information about zeroes of modulated signal. To be more accurate, that is pulse width modulation. The player reconstructs the FM signal and demodulates it.

In theory, if you could transfer the PWM signal directly to a computer, you could most accurately regenerate the original video signal, using digital signal processing for demodulating and color decoding. I doubt this is possible, you would have to hack a LD player and use a high frequency A/D converter and then write software to transfer the signal to an ordinary form.

ppera2
3rd January 2002, 20:30
I must tell that I found this whole thread, and especially title as ridiculous.

To achieve some decent quality DVD from Laserdisc you will need very expensive equipment, but still be limited with (non)quality of Laserdisc (player).
Of course we can dream about making something better always...

I'm quite sure that Lucas will faster launch regular DVD's.

Btw. there is all 3 part on Chinese DVD's. It's taken from Laserdiscs.
Quality is aprox. as good VHS.

Defiler
4th January 2002, 04:32
When I capture from LD to my PC, I use a Sony DVMC-DA2 "Media Converter".. The end result is a 720x480 DV file with 48kHz audio. Excellent quality. Looks much better than those example screen grabs from the website. I use the MainConcept DV codec to work on the resultant files in VirtualDub.

wmansir
4th January 2002, 10:28
Originally posted by ppera2

I'm quite sure that Lucas will faster launch regular DVD's.
I wouldn't be to sure of that. I remember hearing that Lucas will not be releasing any of the original trilogy on DVD until he has completed the current trio of films. Something about not wanting to split his focus between projects. This means they probably won't be out until after 2006.

Knowing Lucas, I wouldn't expect a DVD from the original trilogy until 2008. Perhaps it will be an entire episode IV,V,VI set or he could string out the releases until 2010, or maybe 2012. but I could be wrong.

Kedirekin
4th January 2002, 15:49
Back to the Future series, and Indiana Jones series won't be available anytime soon either.

Incidentally, I've done LD captures on my lowly WinTV card and encoded them to SVCD. It required a bit of heavy filtering in vDub, and results weren't perfect, but it was much better than VHS (especially a 20 year old VHS).

Emp3r0r
5th January 2002, 07:20
Personally I think this whole situation is sick, and Lucas is a dick for not letting his fans have dvd's. I haven't read the specifications but I believe the video is analog and the audio is same as CD. Isn't it possible to record an analog signal digitally. Anyway, I'm sure there has to be a way to record the sound digitally, yet the video will always look analog. Thats too bad because I've seen LD... Yet a 5.1 Dolby Digital sound track would be nice to go along with that analog captured signal. Anybody think they could capture that?

Koepi
5th January 2002, 10:03
I just took a look at the screenshots posted on that site.
There are two things that could be done:
Star Wars lived from the nice colours when i watched it back in the 1980s, i had a real good video 2000 copy of that, quality: amazing.

So you should do some colour enhancement.

The other thing is the "corny" (dunno a better word for that, just a bad translation directly from german to english ;) )picture. The snow scenes really had that. If the rest of the movie shows the same effect, you might want to use a temporal smoother with a small amount, e.g. 2 or 3.


Just my two -cent.

Regards,
Koepi

gooki
12th January 2002, 23:17
Sorry for takign so long to post these pictures. The following are examples of a laserdisc to dvd conversion. (note shots have been scalled down to 640 for divx encoding as i'd since sold the dvd on.

http://www16.brinkster.com/zeganet/ldcaptures.htm

Defiler
9th April 2003, 15:59
Any news on your results? I just got this LD box, and I'm going to convert mine to DVD..
Pioneer Elite DVL-90, Terratec 6Fire, Prolink XCapture

Ookami
9th April 2003, 16:22
Two things:

a) Why is this in GD and not in the capture forum (I see that it's an old thread, I must have slept or was offline then)?

b) There are plenty of Laserdisc threads on this board, I suggest all interested to read them too.

Defiler
9th April 2003, 16:28
Thanks for moving it.
I've read other LD threads.. I was just wondering if there were any new updates about this particular set of sources.

^^-+I4004+-^^
10th April 2003, 20:33
you have analog source,and not a decent one
(judging on your images on web)
so see what can filtering do for you
(obviuoisly you have chroma noise and
some grainy noise)
also,you mention deinterlacing...but
what about telecide?
after all it's a film source.....

sure LD is analog format,and as
antti said it's FM modulated video,
but PWM,so it can as well be "lands"
and "pits" on disc....

try telecide,try some filtering....
(filtering was discussed in many threads
here,no need for it again...just search...)

also,i wonder if noisy stuff will be ok on DV...
(as it will add some noise of it's own,this is so called
quantization noise....mjpeg has it too...)
if there are conditions (hardware,hdd etc.)
better try huff etc.

cweb
12th April 2003, 12:02
This isn't correct AFAIK. With regards to tv transmissions, the AM band was used many years ago and then replaced with FM in southern Europe at the very least (I think the rest of Europe did too). In fact you can receive some tv transmissions on an FM radio, not AM. Please correct me with proof if I'm wrong. :)


Originally posted by Antti
Analog television broadcasting is usually AM, this applies to both PAL & NTSC. In SECAM color subcarriers are frequency modulated.

For Laserdisc technology FM is natural, because the pits on a disc contain information about zeroes of modulated signal. To be more accurate, that is pulse width modulation. The player reconstructs the FM signal and demodulates it.

In theory, if you could transfer the PWM signal directly to a computer, you could most accurately regenerate the original video signal, using digital signal processing for demodulating and color decoding. I doubt this is possible, you would have to hack a LD player and use a high frequency A/D converter and then write software to transfer the signal to an ordinary form.

Antti
14th April 2003, 07:27
Originally posted by cweb
This isn't correct AFAIK. With regards to tv transmissions, the AM band was used many years ago and then replaced with FM in southern Europe at the very least (I think the rest of Europe did too). In fact you can receive some tv transmissions on an FM radio, not AM. Please correct me with proof if I'm wrong. :)

You are speaking of audio channel, right? It's usually FM, yes. At least in northern Europe there's also a digital audio channel available (NICAM). As for video, it is AM everywhere AFAIK, using vestigial side band modulation. FM would require almost as much as double bandwidth compared to VSB.

specise_8472
18th April 2003, 12:11
Originally posted by Kedirekin
Back to the Future series, and Indiana Jones series won't be available anytime soon either.

Back to the Future is available zone 4 and 2, DTS as well.

easy2Bcheesy
18th April 2003, 12:56
This is one I've puzzled over for a long time. First of all, does any one have the Star Wars DVDs available on Ebay? The pirate ones? Are they really in 5.1 Dolby Digital?

This is how I would do the Star Wars Trilogy...

1. Get a DVD Recorder and a LD player with RGB/YUV output
Why? Because we can talk about AM and FM modulation all day but the bottom line is we're stuck with three different video output types - Composite video/S-Video/Component from consumer equipment. And unless you're willing to splurge $5,000 on a video capture board capable of a component input, you're best off getting a DVD recorder (price $500). A Philips DVD Recorder will capture from component and you can fit an hour of footage at a bitrate of 8.9MB/s onto a DVD+R. Take 2-3 capture sessions (if I recall, SW and ESB are on two sides, ROTJ is on three) and then use your favourite recompression technique to fit all this data onto one DVD-R.

2. Dolby 5.1...
Hmmmmmm can we get an LD player with a build in DD 5.1 decoder? Like the DVD players that have six phono outputs - one for each channel. The only way I can see us getting the 5.1 experience is to sample two channels at a time (again, the DVD recorder could do this, or any kind of recording device), then to take the three recordings to something like Sonic Foundry Soft Encode and making your own AC3 file. If anyone knows of a coaxial solution that would capture 5.1, please feel free to correct me!


The way I see it, we can talk all day about getting the raw data off the LDs, but you're looking at an enormous investment when really and truly, you could probably get a high-end LD player for next to nothing off Ebay which would produce output pretty much indistinguishable to the human eye from what is being suggested on this thread.

Defiler
18th April 2003, 13:20
LD players don't have component outputs, and the Star Wars Definitive box isn't in 5.1.. So we've just saved some money right there. Heh.

easy2Bcheesy
18th April 2003, 16:38
Originally posted by Defiler
LD players don't have component outputs, and the Star Wars Definitive box isn't in 5.1.. So we've just saved some money right there. Heh.

Sorry to crap on your strawberries, but you can DEFINITELY get RGB output LD players in Europe. Like this one, for example:

http://www.laserdiscarchive.co.uk/laserdisc_archive/sony/sony_mdp-533d/sony_mdp-533d.htm

RGB is 99% as good a signal as analogue component Y Pr Pb. Get one of these players and connect it directly to a European DVD Recorder (which has a RGB SCART input for component recording) and you're away.

If you're saying that the Definitive Box is Dolby Surround only, this is better still in many ways - you just do a straight record of each LD side onto DVD at the highest possible recording setting, take all your DVD+R/RWs to your PC and then recompress onto one DVD-R using CCE or whatever.

I'm sure you could put it all through an AviSynth script and resize the image into an anamorphic display, to get rid the scanlines if watching on a 16:9 TV.

easy2Bcheesy
18th April 2003, 17:03
I've just taken a look at the Geocities site mentioned at the beginning of this thread, and looked at the screenshots.

The biggest problem I can see is that the picture is being captured via composite video, thus losing a vast amount of the clarity of the original signal. Even S-Video would be better than this. I did a rough & ready copy of my Special Edition LDs using a Matrox 2500 and S-Video and the quality was much better than that. I think a key problem is in the quality of the capture board being used. Those pics look worse than VHS!

However, I still think the RGB component/DVD Recorder is the way to go to get the best possible quality picture.

Defiler
18th April 2003, 17:17
Originally posted by easy2Bcheesy
Sorry to crap on your strawberries, but you can DEFINITELY get RGB output LD players in Europe. Like this one, for example:Oh my God. That is awesome.

^^-+I4004+-^^
18th April 2003, 20:27
>I did a rough & ready copy of my Special Edition LDs using a Matrox 2500 and S-Video and the quality was much better than that.

as far as i know,LD has FM *COMPOSITE* PWM video on the disc;
this would mean that signal has MIXED COLOR AND LUMA ON THE DISC!therefore,no improvement will be visible if u use s-vhs (at least theory would be something like that..perhaps s-vhs in on your card is more sensitive or something....i believe LD will have same output,as signal on LD is composite video).
(if i remember some LD graphic representation of video signal spectrum;it's the same composite signal that VHS outputs,but off course with higher bandwidth etc.)
so i believe RGB would be waste of time;composite will be converted to RGB and tteh source was still composite,so no gain
(gain would be if the signal was writen to LD as
1-s-vhs (luma and chroma separated all the way)
2-RGB (this needs lot of bandwidth and i think no analog system uses it)

(curently i don't have this info on my hdd,but if i find it and it suggested otherway,i'll correct myself...but this signal is not RGB for sure!)

/ivo

easy2Bcheesy
19th April 2003, 07:56
I did a bit of research on the Laserdisc Archive site and it looks as though you are right - the signal is indeed coded onto the LD in composite video, but we really need side by side tests before we throw it out of the window. If RGB and S-Video were so pointless, why did the likes of Pioneer and Sony add unnecessary circuitry to their LD players? Here's a quote on RGB performance:

RGB In Use - The player does produce greater resolution via the com_posite output than via RGB. That would seem to be in accordance with Sony's advice in the instruction manual (though it is not couched in such directly unfavour_able terms). The resolution rolls off earlier in RGB, giving the pictures in NTSC a slightly 'glazed' look. In PAL, one would go as far as to call the RGB pictures noticeably unsharp. It should be remem_bered that the signal on the disc is coded in composite in the first place so, in one respect, a composite output is the 'purest' output. Converting the signal to RGB may only offer a superior signal if the RGB encoding stage is of a higher standard It would be interesting to compare with some of the more expensive professional players with RGB to see whether their performance is better.

The RGB output does have certain advantages in NTSC in that it acts like a Y/C (S-output) might and cleans up the spurious colour side effects of the signal. Cross-colour - the colour 'rainbow' effect on areas of fine detail - and cross-luminance - the crawling colour dot movement on sharp vertical edges - are all suppressed in the RGB mode.


The signal may be coded in composite video, but it sounds to me like the "spurious colour side effects of the signal" would really effect a movie like Star Wars.

I think the only way we are ever going to be able to test this is to actually get our hands on top-of-the-line RGB output LD player, and do capturing sessions with both RGB and composite (and indeed S-Video).

One thing's for sure - whatever the original poster is using to capture, he needs to update his kit - that's his weak link. I did a test of composite video output onto my DVD Recorder, and the quality of the shot was far, far superior to what he is getting.

^^-+I4004+-^^
19th April 2003, 23:04
>Cross-colour - the colour 'rainbow' effect on areas of fine detail - and cross-luminance - the crawling colour dot movement on sharp vertical edges - are all suppressed in the RGB mode.


perhaps "surpressed",but not removed!i have found data (same as you),video is composite on LD (that's for sure now)........there's NO freakin' way for this 2 components(luma and chroma) to be perfectly separated...ever!
either on svhs output or rgb output!
actually,the image can only be degraded if LD player has some lousy comb filter........(test for yourself to see if capturing card has better comb filter or LD player ...use what gives better image (ie. less and cross-color and cross-luma)

why are they putting it in player then?
well they think their combo filter (inside the player) can beat combo filter of a vcr,tv etc.
i don't know,i'm interested in LD as an vintage format,but will never own a player...(if i had i would be glad to test this combo filter that they put in players)

i agree...the images posted look like they were feeded through RF connection,or something...very lousy!

i don't have ANY trouble achieving better quality with ANY VHS tape i have....

if it's true that LD players comb filter has better image than capture cards,then do use svhs instead of composite.......
dvdrecorders are too expensive for such thing only,i believe...

\AX
21st April 2003, 02:59
believe it or not i already tried that...with the same disc
worked at a nail salon...the owner was a huge kareokee buff (vietnamse elvis type of kareokee :-0 ) anyways the result's sucked.

yeh i used the s-video out...the player wasnt shotty either. from what he told me it was ~a 1100usd Yamahaa. It didnt look zhitty either.

Results again were crap. I was hoping at the time to get a nice svcd of Empire strikes back but that was a no go. I actually put it on a 2 xvcd's somewhere that i should still have but doubt.

I was disappointed with the result's highly. The image of the capture was nothing to be proud of....ive seen better caps off a svhs player.

I did Mortal Kombat from the LD too..that was much nicer...way better picture.

Im not sure exactly how LD movies work...i guess they are composite.

This is off topic of star wars cap but on topic of LD...what are Kareokee LD's?? I really dont know but they seem they *could be digital right?? In highschool a friends father used to make kareokee lds...he had some sort of LD reader (maybe imager?) for the pc that was the size of a small couch almost.

Im not interested in buying a LD player...i have always wondered though if Kareokee LD's were digital at all. Of course subtitle's doesnt mean its digital at all...but ive seen a few that were "interactive".


Good luck seeing Star wars on a DVD anytime soon. From what i have always understood besides the fact of Lucas being unhappy with the first orginal presentation of it...is that Speilberg has some rights to the audio of it and can dictate if it is released...well atleast released with sound. I know speilberg has always wanted to do his rendention of it...but never could get Lucas's ok. So im guessing without both agreeing to it...there will never be another star wars ep4,5,6 digital. And if what i have heard is true...Lucas owns the video and Speilberg ownd the Audio...man that would be ruff. That would basically mean Speilberg would get to do his...then out of spite Lucas would do his...were talking 3 different versions. A trilogy of a trilogy.

I really hope speilberg does his rendention of it to be honest...lucas's "sell it to the kids" mentality showed ALOT in the cute little fuzzy wuzzy Ewoks episode...speilberg would do more of a cold rendention of it like E.S.Back. If you look at the indy films Lucas made before starwars you would notice he sold out with the Ewoks. Speilberg on the other hand, looking at his track record, he has always aimed towards the kids when it was time for concerning the kids. Star wars to him would be a more of a Adult approach...so he would most likely keep it that way. Vs. Lucas and his let's sell toys from my movies that are not even in the movie attitude.

easy2Bcheesy
25th April 2003, 06:21
Why on Earth would Spielberg own rights on the audio to Star Wars?! I have never read that before.

However, George Lucas did swap 1% of the profits on Star Wars for 1% of the profits of Spielberg's Close Encounters of the Third Kind, so in that sense Spielberg has made a vast amount of money from Star Wars without having any input on the movie whatsoever.

tedkunich
26th April 2003, 02:24
Having just finnished ripping and mastering SW ep4 from my LD player (Pioneer DVL-919), the analog results with S-video plus some additional grounding (S-Video has a poor ground) were remarkably good. I'm using a 4500kbps average bitrate. When viewed on my 32" XBR, the picture quality is very close to the original material (LD). My only problem is that I notice some chroma shifting on the facial close ups... not sure what was the cause - more than likely my capture card as it is visible in original AVI capture.

I have also captured the DD soundtrack (Coax out to my reciever) using the three pass method (front, rear, center/sub). Having a bitch getting the audio to sync up though...

easy2Bcheesy
27th April 2003, 08:57
I did some experiments on 'converting' the picture into anamorphic widescreen - there's nothing worse than watching a non-anamorphic movie on a 16:9 TV. The zoom-in is awful, the scan lines you see put me right off.

Essentially I captured the film onto my DVD player, then used VFAPI and AviSynth to stretch the picture vertically by 133% before encoding in TMPEG (CCE 2.5 didn't like my avs file for some reason).

I found that the picture is very good indeed on bright scenes and the loss of the scan lines thanks to true anamorphic is great. However, on dark scenes (such as the Dagobah bit and the tail end of Luke vs Vader in ESB) produces a massive amount of noise on-screen making the film look awful and unwatchable.

I guess that's a problem with my LD player - it was only 250 when I bought it new.