Sanyo Xacti CG65 AVC/AAC Camera

[RiMark]

Hi, I'm starting to dig MPEG-4 AVC. I'm looking for an affordable and small AVC camera to record good quality video for at least an hour per gigabyte. Sanyo announced the CG65 AVC/H264 digicam and it interests me since it meets my criteria and has decent specs like optical focus and optical zoom.

The only CG65 video samples I've found online so far are at the SourceForge MP4Cam2AVI Help forum (http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1702206&forum_id=419338). They appear to be much lower bit-rate than the camera's specs of 3Mbps at highest quality, but they look ok.

Could an expert here please tell me more about these CG65 MP4 files, their content, format and specs? Are they variable bit-rate (will work as an AVI)? Color is RGB, YUV, ? Why is it that when viewed with QT or Nero the contrast is ok, but when viewed with VLC or some codecs the contrast is too strong?

Thanks in advance!

[RiMark]

Sorry about the newbieisms. Ok, what I've been able to determine so far using the tools mentionned in these forums: Video = MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 640x480 29.97fps, color = YV12 (Media Info: Language "eng" - Type "vide" - Sub Type "avc1") does appear to be variable bit-rate.(?) Audio = MPEG-4 AAC LC, 128 kbps, stereo, 16-bit, 48000 Hz (Media Info: Language "eng" - Type "soun" - Sub Type "mp4a"). Different profiles based on quality level, perhaps to target different playback devices (PMPs): TV-SHQ = Profile Main @ Level 3, TV-HQ = Profile Baseline @ Level 3. Appears to be 250-300KB of overhead in the files for header, TAGS, thumbnail, etc.. I don't know if they all can playback on iPod or PSP?

[bond]

maybe you are lucky, but i wouldnt count on that those files can be played on the ipod or psp

you will only know if you try to play those samples

[HowlerX]

You can try demuxing the audio and video with MP4Box and remuxing with NicMP4box to see if will play in a video iPod.

[RiMark]

Unfortunatly I don't have access to an iPod or PSP or other PMP at this time. But I'm curious why you would think they might not work. Shouldn't they be able to deal with the MP4 container? All the MP4 software on the PC I tried so far seems to do ok. Or bond do you think it's the bitrate, resolution, main profile or something else? I assume a PS3 would be able to play them if it's a computational thing. The only thing I can't do on the PC with these files is get the video stream working in an AVI container (the AAC audio track works).

[HowlerX]

Well, I tried the 3 samples from that page on my video iPod. I demuxed audio and video with an unmodified MP4box and remuxed them back with NicMP4box.

The first clip (SANY0125.mp4) would not even copy over to the iPod. The last two clips did copy over to the iPod but would not play. All I got was 14 and 16 seconds of silence with a black screen.

[giandrea]

Well, I tried the 3 samples from that page on my video iPod. I demuxed audio and video with an unmodified MP4box and remuxed them back with NicMP4box.

The first clip (SANY0125.mp4) would not even copy over to the iPod. The last two clips did copy over to the iPod but would not play. All I got was 14 and 16 seconds of silence with a black screen.

Perhaps because they are not Low complexity Baseline profile, but they are Baseline or Main profile. You should be able to play them on a PS3, probably not on a PSP.

[PuzZLeR]

As wonderful and advanced as an iPod is, it is still only a mobile or portable device.

In other words, it is still subject to lower complexity input compared to what the bigger hardcore devices are handling.

Having said that, the iPod will not play anything in Main or High profiles of H.264, even with the correct rez/bitrates/audio. It will only play the lower complexity Baseline profile.

It will not play CABAC and will not handle B frames, both of which improve upon quality for a given file size.

I came to this realization myself, and hate to deliver the bad news, but it looks like you're going to have to re-encode a whole new batch just for the iPod itself.

[giandrea]

As wonderful and advanced as an iPod is, it is still only a mobile or portable device.

In other words, it is still subject to lower complexity input compared to what the bigger hardcore devices are handling.

Having said that, the iPod will not play anything in Main or High profiles of H.264, even with the correct rez/bitrates/audio. It will only play the lower complexity Baseline profile.

It will not play CABAC and will not handle B frames, both of which improve upon quality for a given file size.

I came to this realization myself, and hate to deliver the bad news, but it looks like you're going to have to re-encode a whole new batch just for the iPod itself.

The iPod can play CABAC with 320x240 files if I'm not mistaken.

Anyway... looking at the sample files, it seems that the clips shot in TV-HQ mode have no B frames, while the clip shot in TV-SHQ mode has one B frame. Anyone sees other differences apart the higher bitrate?

[PuzZLeR]

The iPod can play CABAC with 320x240 files if I'm not mistaken.


Oops! Even though I'm not sure, I will say that you may have a point there with the lower rez.

However, I was assuming we were talking about the incumbent rez of 640x480 pointed out in post #2 when I was saying it would not be iPod compliant if it had CABAC properties. If it does, then RiMark will have to re-encode for iPod compliancy if wishing to keep this higher rez.

My apologies if I misled anyone.

Then again, maybe we are only about a year or so away from a newer, more beefier, iPod that accepts these higher specs.

[RiMark]

HowlerX, thanks very much for trying that. Thanks guys, I guess I was overestimating mobile AVC/H.264 playback. I imagine this camera’s "TV" recording modes are not meant for mobile players but more for TV quality. (Although come to think about it, the camera is a small portable device and can play it's own recordings, including the highest quality)

I contacted the guy by e-mail to ask if he had tried recording with the lower resolution modes on the CG65 camera. He replied pretty quickly that he did test the WEB-SHQ mode and provided a sample file (he did not test any portable players):
http://mihd.net/mfbp9j (looks like you need to click "Request Download Link" up left, then you can right-click save the download file)
Here are the specs on this file:
Video = MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 320x240 29.97fps, Profile Baseline @ Level 1.3, avg. 665 kbps
Audio = MPEG-4 AAC LC, 128 kbps, stereo, 16-bit, 48000 Hz
Clearly intended for the web, perhaps this recording mode might work on portable players?
HowlerX, if you are inclined to test if the iPod can play this directly, that would be most appreciated.

He also uploaded the comparison he recorded in TV-SHQ mode just to see the difference:
http://mihd.net/rz6wea
Specs (similar to earlier SANY0125.mp4, but higher average bit-rate?):
Video = MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 640x480 29.97fps, Profile Main @ Level 3, avg. 2.9 Mbps
Audio = MPEG-4 AAC LC, 128 kbps, stereo, 16-bit, 48000 Hz

He sounded very pleased with the camera and said that he got the best playback on the PC so far with Nero digital with auto post processing on. I hadn’t even realized there was auto post processing going on in the Nero codec, I guess that explains partly why it does a smooth job.

[giandrea]

HowlerX, thanks very much for trying that. Thanks guys, I guess I was overestimating mobile AVC/H.264 playback. I imagine this camera’s "TV" recording modes are not meant for mobile players but more for TV quality.

I contacted the guy by e-mail to ask if he had tried recording with the lower resolution modes on the CG65 camera. He replied pretty quickly that he did test the WEB-SHQ mode and provided a sample file (he did not test any portable players):
http://mihd.net/mfbp9j (looks like you need to click "Request Download Link" up left, then you can right-click save the download file)
Here are the specs on this file:
Video = MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 320x240 29.97fps, Profile Baseline @ Level 1.3, avg. 665 kbps
Audio = MPEG-4 AAC LC, 128 kbps, stereo, 16-bit, 48000 Hz
Clearly intended for the web, perhaps this recording mode might work on portable players?
HowlerX, if you are inclined to test if the iPod can play this directly, that would be most appreciated.

He also uploaded the comparison he recorded in TV-SHQ mode just to see the difference:
http://mihd.net/rz6wea
Specs (similar to earlier SANY0125.mp4, but higher average bit-rate?):
Video = MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 640x480 29.97fps, Profile Main @ Level 3, avg. 2.9 Mbps
Audio = MPEG-4 AAC LC, 128 kbps, stereo, 16-bit, 48000 Hz

He sounded very pleased with the camera and said that he got the best playback on the PC so far with Nero digital with auto post processing on. I hadn’t even realized there was auto post processing going on in the Nero codec, I guess that explains partly why it does a smooth job.

This camera looks very interesting, but I'm yet not convinced. It seems it doesn't do 16:9 (am I wrong?) and you can get that resolution (640x480) with most of the new digital cameras available, no need for a camcorder. The only big winning point is AVC, and I hope that the next bunch of digital cameras will all have it by default.

[RiMark]

This camera looks very interesting, but I'm yet not convinced. It seems it doesn't do 16:9 (am I wrong?) and you can get that resolution (640x480) with most of the new digital cameras available, no need for a camcorder. The only big winning point is AVC, and I hope that the next bunch of digital cameras will all have it by default.You are correct, it's a standard definition (4:3) video camera (although it does take 16:9 photos; btw Sanyo has the 7MP Xacti HD2 which records 720p 16:9 HD video using MPEG-4 SP + AAC). I think the big selling point with the 6 megapixel CG65 is that it's tiny, about the size of a deck of cards, and AVC permits more than an hour of high quality video per GB rather than something like MJPEG on many digicams which only allows minutes of video per GB. So it's a true hybrid, completely replacing a camcorder and digital camera. I also hope all digital cameras adopt an efficient codec like AVC, but it seems Sanyo is the first one (not counting camcorders: Sony and Panasonic using AVCHD).

[HowlerX]

Hey, glad to help. I tried downloading that new sample but unfortunately the web site seems to be having problems. I'll try again later and let you know how it goes.

Looks like, from the description, that file should work with a video iPod. We'll see. I'll keep you posted.

[RiMark]

Thanks HowlerX, you're a sport. Eh, I guess we can only expect so much from free web hosting sites. Since I managed to downloaded them both earlier, I uploaded them to another hosting site (I'll let the guy know):
The 320x240 one (1.71 MB):
http://s26.quicksharing.com/v/1717870/SANY0240.MP4.html
and what the hell, the 640x480 one (13.5 MB):
http://s26.quicksharing.com/v/1901348/SANY0223.MP4.html

[HowlerX]

Hi,

OK, The 320x240 WEB-SHQ imported into iTunes and loaded onto the iPod as-is. It played and looked nice on the tiny iPod screen.

For the hell of it, I ran the 640x480 clip thru NicMP4Box to see if it would load into the iPod and no-go. iPod officially supports H.264 videos with a video bitrate of up to 1.5 Mbps (and no B-frames.)

[RiMark]

Thanks again for doing this HowlerX, much appreciated, good stuff to know.

[RiMark]

In case anyone here is interested, the guy put up a review of it over at Steve's Digicams (http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=121651&forum_id=27).

[RiMark]

Looks like Casio also makes an AVC/H.264 digicam now, the EX-V7 (http://www.casio.com/products/Cameras/Exilim_Hi-Zoom/EX-V7SR/). I'm thinking of going for the Sanyo CG65, does anyone know of other digicams that can record in AVC/H.264? Thanks.

[HowlerX]

Are you familiar with the AVCHD cameras? It's supposedly set to become a widely supported standard. I believe the only barrier at the moment is lack of software support, but the limited reading I have done on these cameras has piqued my interest. I'm sure some people have remarked about these cameras in this very forum.

[RiMark]

Yes, thank you, I am aware of the AVCHD camcorders from Panasonic and Sony (I though "AVCHD" was a Panasonic and Sony specific thing though). They sound like great camcorders. I was hoping for a digicam "hybrid", something that could take both high-res. photos (Panasonic's AVCHD cam has only 0.5MP effective sensor pixels) as well as video, and I like the idea of something that can record good video (and AAC audio) in the least amount of space, closer to 1Mbps rather than AVCHD's 18Mbps so I can record over an hour rather than under a dozen minutes per GB. Also I downloaded some AVCHD samples and unfortunately they don't playback on my PC, it's not powerful enough, and I have yet to find software that can edit it. I think it might be the future of camcorders, but it's too much for my systems and needs at this time. Hopefully when I hit the jackpot I'll be able to get an AVCHD cam along with a BSTV home theatre and new quad core PC. :)

[foxyshadis]

El Reg just had an overview of recent HD cameras, many of which are AVCHD: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/04/24/group_test_camcorders/

Several of them are also full-size digicams. I only just heard about the camera-doubling-as-camcorder recently when I saw canon's TX1 (720p+7.1mpix), I guess a lot of companies have them.

[RiMark]

Thanks foxyshadis, many of those in that list are camcorders, unfortunately they fail to point out that some that boast "2MP" stills are actually interpolated from much lower resolution video sensors, often below 0.8MP.

But yes, most digicams do video now, the problem with the vast majority is quality and the codec used. Take Canon's 7MP TX1 you mention, it records video using the MJPEG codec, consumes 15Mbps for VGA resolution, that's less than 8 minutes per GB, and 35Mbps for 720p, literally just 3 minutes per GB. At least Sanyo's HD2 (also 7MP) does 720p at 9Mbps using MPEG-4 SP. But this is why I'm looking for digicams that use the efficient AVC codec, to get the best video/GB ratio.

[foxyshadis]

I didn't realize that TX1 was still using mjpeg. I've waited for the Powershot S4 with the digic iii in hopes it'd use avc or even svq3, but since tx1 already has it and isn't using anything better, I guess I might as well not bother. Looks like I'll be waiting a lot longer. :(

[RiMark]

:eek: LOL, I went and bought the CG65 and have been really pleased with it, but I just noticed they already came out with pocket HD models that record AVC + AAC in MP4 container: the HD1000 and HD700. I found samples, again over at Steve's Digicams forums: HD1000 (http://forums.steves-digicams.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=577679&forum_id=27) and in a review of the HD700 (http://forums.steves-digicams.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=580340&forum_id=27); tried them, they look great and also play very well on the XBOX 360 with the spring update. Damn can't keep up with technology, it's costing a fortune.

Technically it looks like they are only using baseline profile for all of the 720p video and main profile for the 1080i only (I guess because baseline doesn't support interlaced). Audio is still 48000Hz 128Kbps stereo AAC. A little dissapointing that the video is just baseline, but the low-cost does help playback smoothly on PCs and on the consoles.