PDA

View Full Version : WinDVD/PowerDVD and AACS


Doom9
5th March 2007, 16:05
Is it me or is Intervideo & Cyberlink out to screw us all with overeager DRM enforcement?

The current AACS specs don't even mention HDCP so at this point there's no mandatory HDCP for digital output.

For analog output, they have the ICT flag, which is optional.

Yet, both WinDVD 8 and PowerDVD 7.2 simply refuse to play any HD DVDs on my machine (the GFX card is not HDCP capable - the screen is but the people who devices HDCP didn't think of dual link DVI so even though my screen is HDCP capable it'll never work unless I switch back to single link DVI and in the process lose my native resolution of 2560x1600).

If I add AnyDVD HD to the mix, WinDVD/PowerDVD no longer refuses to play, but downscales everything to 950x560 - the max resolution for an unprotected video path if ICT is present. But, there's most definitely no ICT and it only applies to analog output.

How was your HD playback experience with WinDVD?

kuklitis
5th March 2007, 16:17
How comes your GFX is not HDCP compliant ???
What exactly model of Nvidia you have ? Or you mean just that in dual DVI mode there is no driver that card loses HDCP compliancy from software players perspective ?
You should at least tray with single DVI link ...
Or try to obtain some of PowerDVD revisions that plays back HD and than see what happens.
If I remember correctly then PowerDVD 6.5 on XP doesn't require any HDCP at all !
What is your sytem anyways - XP or VISTA ?

Doom9
5th March 2007, 16:45
There isn't a single 7800GT card that supports HDCP. While the chip support it, you need additional hardware to make the whole thing HDCP compliant - and no manufacturer added the additional hardware back when the card was made (I got the card soon after the 7800 series became available). Even today, a lot of cards sold are not HDCP compliant because HDCP isn't free for the manufacturers.

I wasn't aware PowerDVD 6.5 was up for sale anywhere.. isn't it an OEM version that shipped with Toshiba's HD DVD enabled notebook?

The OS is XP (not that it would matter at this point).

Oh, PowerDVD also bitches about my drivers, even though installed the driver revision they tell you to install in their FAQ: http://www.cyberlink.com/multi/support/answerbox_productfaq.jsp?FID=2583

Doom9
5th March 2007, 20:39
I've given PowerDVD 6.5 a try. As PowerDVD 7.2 (well, it says 7.1 if you install the HD edition), it plays for 5 seconds before coming up with an error telling me the content is protected and cannot be played.
If I have AnyDVD HD installed, playback will stop immediately - same thing as when I'm trying to play back a ripped folder.

Inventive Software
5th March 2007, 22:41
I think you're limited to decrypting and demuxing and then playing it that way. But since you mentioned your card was a 7800 GT, I took the liberty of searching for cards with HDCP support, and found this article on Anandtech: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2874. See if you can make an informed choice from that. That is, if you want to play HD-DVD the legitimate way. ;)

Doom9
5th March 2007, 23:47
I don't have any immediate plans for getting a new GFX card. I'll wait at least for NVidia's next generation of cards before making any changes.
The kicker is, I have a Dell 3007WFP screen, which is HDCP compliant. However, the display requires dual link DVI and according to all the reviews and HDCP information I have read, HDCP over dual link DVI is a no go - and since using a non dual link cable means I'm restricted to 1280x800, that's simply a nogo and I'm obviously not willing to replace a perfectly good $2000 screen for something smaller and with a smaller resolution.

And an update on my PowerDVD 6.5 tests:
It plays whichever title comes first when using the play HDDVD folder functionality, then simply stops playing. If I play decrypted files (this time I used BackupHDDVD instead of AnyDVD's ripper), it seems to work out (tested with two Paramount discs so far.. I'm re-ripping poseidon now to see if PowerDVD won't choke on that anymore).

kevroman
6th March 2007, 21:55
If the HD movie that I have stutters quite a bit using powerdvd 7.2, does that usually mean my AMD Athlon 64 3700+ 2.2 GHz processor is the problem, or is it my NVidia GeForce 6150 LE

sjchmura
6th March 2007, 22:24
Well my XFX Geforce7800GTX 512meg card (quite expensive 1 year ago) that "toughted" HDCP is not. The 7800 models CAN have HDCP but the manufactures must properly implement it. (tried my 360 HD-DVD unit)

With the current Nov 29 2006 drivers PowerDVD7.2 states that the 7800GTX-> 65" HDMI DLP (DVI to HDMI cable, HDCP compliant, works with my friends 6600) is not HDCP compliant (the TV is HDMI 1.2).

This really sucks, imho, for those of us who BUY the HD-DVD's and can't play them back.

I was not aware PowerDVD6.5 would solve these problems. Is this legally available anymore?

So if I "ripped" the HD-DVD to my HD (25gigs worth) would PowerDVD7.2 actually work?

Well, at least it all works fine on the analog 360 VGA connection (although my TV only accepts 1376x768 over VGA but 1920x1080p over HDMI :(

Doom9
6th March 2007, 22:56
Is this legally available anymore? It's probably going to be tricky seeing as it was OEM only.
I'd definitely give the ripping a shot.. or AnyDVD depending on your likings - they do have a free trial.

hdtv00
6th March 2007, 23:04
Yes jevroman that could very likely be the problem with your built in wanna be video card and single core cpu.

I'm in the same boat I have a 1900xt non hdcp and I'm just not ready to shell out $300 or more for a new card. The fact that powerdvd and windvd FORCE protection that is not needed nor called for or implemented yet really pisses me off. Had they not broken hd-dvd protections back I wouldn't even be able to really enjoy the movies I OWN.

As for the players I can get 7.1 to work ok most of the time, I'd say 99%. Ver 6.5 however almost totally worthless for me playback wise, nothing seems to want to work. Windvd forget it I've never been able to get this to play back one single damn hd-dvd. Audio with black screen 100% of the time.

Yes sjchmura ripping and decoding them onto HD bypasses all the hdcp non sense allowing you to actually watch what you buy or not in some cases.

Either way you put it both software players suck really. I can't believe they have the nerve to charge $90+ for them. Talk about a crime....

IanD
7th March 2007, 00:05
I've given PowerDVD 6.5 a try. As PowerDVD 7.2 (well, it says 7.1 if you install the HD edition), it plays for 5 seconds before coming up with an error telling me the content is protected and cannot be played.
If I have AnyDVD HD installed, playback will stop immediately - same thing as when I'm trying to play back a ripped folder.
I'm using an ATI X300 which is definitely not HDCP compliant and decrypted content on HDD.

I can't use PDVD 7.1 because it complains the drivers are not suitable (even though I was using Catalyst 7.1 the almost latest drivers) and gives a garbled video window.

I can use PDVD 6.5 and it plays beautifully as long as I edit the .XPL file to remove everything but the basic feature (including removing subtitles which default to on and surplus audio tracks). If I don't edit the .XPL, I just get the firstplay title (generally a black screen) and then PDVD shuts down.

My guess is that PDVD 6.5 does not handle menu/navigation structures well on decrypted content, whether because of issues in the decrypting process or just software bugs.

My suggestion is to edit .XPL to remove everything except the main feature (renumber it to Title 1) and the audio track you require, even the chapter info, and then try to play with PDVD 6.5. If that works, then gradually add features back into the .XPL until it no longer works then go back a step.

It's not ideal as you can't go to chapter stops with the very basic version, but you can still seek with the slider and it is easier than demuxing and remuxing. In any case, we mostly just need to see the main feature right?

I expect this process would also work with the extra titles on the disc by suitably editing the .XPL file, but I haven't experimented with that yet.

I agree the current software players are making playback very difficult without an "approved" setup. It is obvious playback is theoretically possible with much less sophisticated gear than recommended and only not possible because Cyberlink and Intervideo have decreed it so.

shadowflit
7th March 2007, 05:59
On a more positive note; I get HD-DVD's to play well on my laptop (via 360 add-on drive) using PowerDVD 7.1. I wouldn't go so far as to say its as pleasant an experience as normal DVD playback, but I don't have any downscaling issues. The extent of my problems is PowerDVD's affinity for turning on subtitles automatically, and forcing me to use the menu system to turn them off. Not a huge hassle though. I might be having better luck for the simple reason I'm using a laptop, and hence don't have to mess with connections to displays. My card (nvidia go7800 for the curious) doesn't need to be HDCP compliant in order to output to the laptop screen.
edit: when I first started playing HD-DVD's in WinXP, I had to go through a lot of hassle to get "accepted" drivers that were unlocked for the go7800. It seems the drivers have progressed since then though, as after upgrading to Vista I didn't have to go hunting for drivers anymore.

The only truly odd thing about the playback is that it tends to work better without hardware acceleration than with.

I haven't yet used any of the DRM freeing utilities, so I can't comment on my use of those. (The main reason for this being a need for more free space on my external hard drive)

Inventive Software
7th March 2007, 14:56
Hey, guess what? This saga is just another reason not to switch to HD-DVD or BluRay at the moment! Over-zealous copy-protection.

On a slightly different note, if the manufacturer touts HDCP and then doesn't implement it, isn't that technically illegal because it's false advertising?

Doom9
7th March 2007, 17:57
On a slightly different note, if the manufacturer touts HDCP and then doesn't implement it, isn't that technically illegal because it's false advertising?Depends if your country has advertising legislation that is industry or consumer friendly. I know in Germany you could ask for either a fix (so a card that does it), or get part of your money back for not delivering the product that was promised.

By the way, neither Intervideo no Cyberlink support have so far bothered to reply to my inquiry why they downscale playback on my machine. That's the way to deal with customers that pay a hundred bucks for a media player with the only intention of playing HD stuff in full resolution.

I'm wondering if any of you with non HDCP compliant setup has tried going the analog route to your screen.. most PC flatscreens have an analog input after all.. just the 30" behemoths don't and I just recently sold the 23" dual input screen I had gathering dust for the past year. Now I wished I could give the old screen a try via analog connector to see if it would change anything.

Inventive Software
7th March 2007, 18:50
What about sueing both Intervideo and Cyberlink? If it's in breach of the player specifications for HD-DVD, then do you have a case, because nowhere does it say that non-HDCP output means down-scaled videos?

Roscoe62
8th March 2007, 01:16
I find Intervideo and Cyberlinks' "over-enthusiastic" DRM techniques disturbing, and I'm trying to understand what exactly is going on.

Theoretically, the video is supposed to be downscaled ONLY if HDCP is present and your video output path is non-compliant (i.e. videocard doesn't support HDCP/display doesn't support HDCP/driver doesn't support HDCP) Is this correct?

If that's true, and apps like AnyDVD HD and BackupHD-DVD are correctly removing the HDCP data when ripping then WinDVD/PowerDVD must be keying off something else. Perhaps the app is checking the video output path for HDCP compliance and then making the decision to downscale based on that.

I guess the only way to tell is to rip & then play back using PowerDVD7.1/7.2 or WinDVD8 on a fully HDCP compliant system to ensure the video is not still downscaling.

Does anyone have such a system they can test this on?

Doom9
8th March 2007, 09:27
Theoretically, the video is supposed to be downscaled ONLY if HDCP is present and your video output path is non-compliant (i.e. videocard doesn't support HDCP/display doesn't support HDCP/driver doesn't support HDCP) Is this correct?Not quite. It depends on the presence of the ICT flag. If the flag is set (it's an optional feature.. except for Warner all studios have said they wouldn't use it for now.. and I cannot find a list of Warner titles to actually is it), any output via unprotected path (be it digital without HDCP or analog) would be downscaled to 960x540. Without the flag, anything should play at the full resolution. There's another flag, the DOT (digital output token) that's even stricter and disables any non protected output.
PowerDVD 7.1 actually plays my movies at 1080p if it plays them directly from the HD DVD without AnyDVD active. But after 5 seconds it aborts with the "system validation error" because it doesn't detect HDCP (that actually happens a lot to people that have a perfectly HDCP compliant system, too).

@Inventive Software: in my country it would be extremely hard to sue.. it's much easier to demand a rectification of the problem. I do not expect either company to respond to me though.. they only have to lose if they admit they're screwing me backwards for no good reason.

KoD
8th March 2007, 12:45
Actaully, content would be downscaled and this downscaled video would be upscaled back to 720 or 1080. This is how it's supposed to work. Which makes me wonder if this is not in fact what happens even for those that believe they have working playback at full resolution. Btw, it's not the player that has to perform the upscale.

IanD
8th March 2007, 13:21
Actaully, content would be downscaled and this downscaled video would be upscaled back to 720 or 1080. This is how it's supposed to work. Which makes me wonder if this is not in fact what happens even for those that believe they have working playback at full resolution. Btw, it's not the player that has to perform the upscale.
I'm having an argument on AVS Forum about this very issue. The problem is that many are adamant that I would be getting true 1920x1080p display, yet have very different setups and often HDCP graphics cards.

It is rather suspicious that PowerDVD 6.5 plays decrypted HD-DVD content in a window that is roughly 960x540 with my ATI X300 non-HDCP graphics card. I had always understood that windowed playback was at native source resolution.

Of course it is possible that because of my 1600x1200 desktop, PowerDVD feels that it is forced to downscale when asked to display in window mode. I probably should try a 1920x1440 desktop to see if that makes any difference.

Very confusing working out what is actually happening.

I wish it was possible to play back with mplayer2 (WMP 6.4) as that always displayed at source resolution, even if the desktop was less, and used to be a definitive indicator.

foxyshadis
8th March 2007, 14:21
Actaully, content would be downscaled and this downscaled video would be upscaled back to 720 or 1080. This is how it's supposed to work. Which makes me wonder if this is not in fact what happens even for those that believe they have working playback at full resolution. Btw, it's not the player that has to perform the upscale.

It's easy to test this. Capture a frame, downscale it, and then upscale it again. (Bilinear most likely, maybe bicubic.) If you have any experience in image processing you'll even be able to identify immediately whether it was upscaled, without needing the test, so just pausing might be enough.

Inventive Software
9th March 2007, 01:19
So what we need, effectively, is a player that doesn't screw us over?


FFmpeg anybody?! :D

Ishan
9th March 2007, 11:04
That's strange, I get full definition playback with PDVD 7.2. I don't use AnyDVD but just rip movies on a HDD, and they playback fine with no loss in resolution (very fine detail are totaly visible on my CRT monitor @ 1920x1440 and are still great on my 720p HDMI set)
For the record I use a ATI X1900XT 512MB (without HDCP) with the latest Omega Drivers.

Doom9
9th March 2007, 11:24
CRT = analog.. so that's an interesting piece of info (if you recall, my screen has but a HDCP dual link DVI input). Man do I want my 23" TFT back for an experiment.

Ishan
9th March 2007, 12:26
The thing is when I start PDVD it opens on my CRT then I slide it on my HDTV set (wich is used as a desktop extention) then open the movie on HDD. Maybe because PDVD is starting on a CRT screen it doesn't set the output to half res.
All those ridiculous protections are a SERIOUS pain in the *** IMHO, why do they want to criple DVI out? aren't VGA easier to record with the right equipement? (with almost no loss, at least no visible if done right) all this is total nonsense and just annoy FU**ING PAYING CUSTOMERS to prevent some whatever dumbass recording their precious HD stuffs! I'm so mad at them (that include every people involved in that nonsense), it doesn't prevent priates from releasing HDDVD and Bluray dumps on the internet, it just makes what must be a good experience a pain.
I know you all already know that but I had to say it, it feels great :D

Mitchjs
9th March 2007, 23:06
How can i tell from PDVD7.2/3 what resolution the HD-DVD is playing back at...

on 1 pc i have a CRT monitor, the HTPC i have is a HDCP dvi connected rear projection display
(ATI X1600 card)

when i play the hddvd on the pc with crt monitor, it looks great, but it could be lower res, could be full res...
how does one know...

thanks
mitch

Galileo2000
10th March 2007, 14:58
PDVD 6.5 plays most of my (ripped) titles just fine thru DVI->HDMI.
My card is XFX 7600GT, drivers are 97.91 with modified INF from http://www.laptopvideo2go.com/. My monitor is Samsung 67" S6767 DLP CRT, which is according to Cyberlink Advisor is not HDCP-compliant.



Exceptions are V for Vendetta and Sahara, which are played in all black :D

Not to worry, my old rusty P4 3.3Ghz with Radeon 2006 9600 256 MB plays it just fine thru VGA connection with Catalyst 7.2 drivers.

Resolution is set to 1920x1080p for both HTPCs.

Yesterday I've tried PDVD 7.3. Nice black screen on everything with and w/o AnyDVD HD running.
So it was short-lived on my HTPC, I was smart enough to do a full backup before installing latest and greatest.

Mitchjs
10th March 2007, 15:21
keep in mind, just because ur screen resolution is 1920x1080p means nothing... if the resolution of the image is less, it will be scaled by the display

mitch

Turtleggjp
12th March 2007, 16:49
I just received my Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive this weekend, and this morning I got to try it out on two different computers. The first one is an Athlon 64 2.2GHz (single core) with a Geforce 7600GT card, and analog 17" CRT monitor. I was very pleased to see that PowerDVD 7.1 fired right up and began playing with no trouble! The actual playback was probably not 100% perfect, but it did look very nice. I'm sure a faster CPU or a dual core CPU would smooth that out. The second computer was my laptop, which has a Core 2 Duo 1.66 GHz CPU, and Intel integrated graphics. Needless to say, PowerDVD 7.1 did not like the Intel graphics chip, or the drivers (according to the advisor). It also recommended I upgrade the CPU (yellow dot). I then tried some of the .EVO trailers I had downloaded, and PowerDVD 7.1 still wouldn't play them, again complaining about the video card and drivers. Only after demuxing the trailers with EVO Demux was I able to play back the video only files. That was another quirk, because PowerDVD wouldn't play the VC-1 video streams, unless they had .mpv extensions. If it had a .vc1 extension, it wouldn't even try to play them.

So that was my first experience with HD-DVD playback. Later on tonight, I will probably test it again with my Athlon 64 X2 2.4GHz system with Radeon X800 video card and Sony 23" DVI/analog non-HDCP monitor. I know that's going to be trouble...

Matt